New To The Flock

[chrisandrew]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus. I am male , 32 yoa , raised as a catholic ( till I refused to participate). I have recently (as of 3 years now) decided to follow the teachings of Jesus (as described in the new testament). I am interested in apologetics so would like to learn the position of those who represent any and all system of beliefs. Please feel free to also question me about the hope that is in me . I do not adhere to any organization , so for now all answers about my beliefs will be solo scriptura. Thanks for having me!

[Choobus]

If you believe in ridiculous fairy tales about a sky bastard some sort of god, why are you here? I'm sorry, but you won't find any buybull apologists here.

[Livingstrong]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus. I am male , 32 yoa , raised as a catholic ( till I refused to participate). I have recently (as of 3 years now) decided to follow the teachings of Jesus (as described in the new testament). I am interested in apologetics so would like to learn the position of those who represent any and all system of beliefs. Please feel free to also question me about the hope that is in me . I do not adhere to any organization , so for now all answers about my beliefs will be solo scriptura. Thanks for having me!

Greetings back in the name of MY Lord Lance Armstrong. Welcome to the RA forums. :D

[chrisandrew]

I was looking to be challenged by other perspectives. I forgive you , but what is a buybull apologist ? (I could not find buybull in websters dictionary)

[Choobus]

I'm sure you can figure it out. It sounds like you are already challenged enough; no need to go looking for more.

[Livingstrong]

LOL

Choobus, you are....forgiven.... :lol:

[Livingstrong]

I'm sure you can figure it out. It sounds like you are already challenged enough; no need to go looking for more.

I don't think this guy/gal is going to be able to understand what you mean.

[chrisandrew]

If you believe in ridiculous fairy tales about a sky bastard some sort of god, why are you here? To learn other perspectives. I'm sorry, I forgive you. but you won't find any buybull apologists here.Whats a buybull apologist?

[Choobus]

LOL

Choobus, you are....forgiven.... :lol:

As I have said before, fuck those who forgive.

I don't recall where I said it, but I know I did.

[Livingstrong]

buybull

bybull

byeble

byble

[Eva]

welcome to our humble forum, chrisandrew.

i think your stay here will be amusing to us. you see, we are not big on the apologist thingie....

[Choobus]

Whats a buybull apologist?

it's like a schlongsucker, but with more facial pubic hair.

[Livingstrong]

it's like a schlongsucker, but with more facial pubic hair.

:lol:

[chrisandrew]

I was not born believing in the message of Jesus . I made a decision based on valid reason. I will share them if you like or not. Were any of you born athiests or did you decide to become one because of some reason ? I respectfully would ask you please share . If you would I would be thankful.

[Eva]

we are all born atheist.
religion is pounded into us since an early age (for most of us, not all).
once we realize belief in any gods is silly, we become atheists.

what are your valid reasons?

[R and All]

I made a decision based on valid reason.

Wrong.

[Choobus]

I was not born believing in the message of Jesus . I made a decision based on valid reason. I will share them if you like or not. Were any of you born athiests or did you decide to become one because of some reason ? I respectfully would ask you please share . If you would I would be thankful.

ok dingus. My parents never felt the need to lie to me, so I was not provided any religious instruction until I was capable of seeing it for what is was (at about age 8, and it came from local busy bodies, not my parents). Therefore, I have never been influenced enough to think that the absurdities of the buybull could be anything other than made up shit. That was obvious to me at age 8 (possibly younger), and it is no different now. This is one of the reasons why I consider those who really believe (many so-called theists are actually just liars who don't believe it anymore than I do) to have a mental age that is generally pre-teen (and, unfortunately, their mental age dictates their sexual predelictions).

I expect you to thank me for this information.

[chrisandrew]

we are all born atheist.
religion is pounded into us since an early age (for most of us, not all).
once we realize belief in any gods is silly, we become atheists.

what are your valid reasons?
thank you . You are right we are born with an atheist perspective . I was told to acknowledge God as a child but I didn't . I went on to not acknowledge any authority whatsoever (lawlessness) . Of course I hurt alot of people along the way , most of all I hurt myself (I was going off the rails on a crazytrain). Drug dealing, drug abuse , detectives, court cases, investigetions,prison,deportation,std's, paying for abortion,constantly lying ,stealing,rape... I was starting to scare myself after lying my way out of one prison sentence after another. I was not getting away with anything I was miserable , lonely , could not trust anyone . I was not in jail but it felt like it when finally I opened a small tract( christian) and read that Gods' will is that none should perish(2Peter3:9). I felt like I was perishing and said " God if it is your will I dont perish then , DO YOUR WILL I dont care what!". I felt things could not get any worse I can not trust anyone lets give God a shot(see what He want to do). Within 2 months everything was different, complete 180, my emotions my physical cicumstances(no more depresion ,no more wanting to drink or get high). One day I noticed I did not give a second look to a girl( I lived for whoremongering). I was content ! Amazed I said "God what happened to me?" I heard the voice of God , He said "you asked me to do my will"...... Huh allright so I keep asking God "DO YOUR WILL" and trying to do what Jesus said ( new testament),simple as that! The contentment is incredible the blessings are evident ! I never knew what it felt like to be loved or even what love was. I am not looking back unless I find a reason can you help me?

[Irreligious]

I was not born believing in the message of Jesus . I made a decision based on valid reason. I will share them if you like or not. Were any of you born athiests or did you decide to become one because of some reason ? I respectfully would ask you please share . If you would I would be thankful.
Even though many people are born to Christian parents (and Muslim parents and Hindu parents and Jewish parents, and parents who subscribe to the tenets of Voodoo and Santeria and, literally hundreds of other alleged mystical practices), no one is born a Christian. Have you ever met a three-year-old who, unprompted, professed a belief in Jesus Christ as his or her personal savior?

So, yes, we are all born atheist as a matter of course. Like many, I was raised to be a Christian, but none of what I was taught ever made any sense to me. Hence, I cannot profess to having ever been a believer in the alleged unearthly powers of the ultimate white man to hail from the Middle East 2,000 + years ago. If this man ever lived at all, he's surely dead now.

As for the alleged dead man's alleged alter-ego-- the purported invisible and immaterial but all-powerful and all-knowing, bearded old white man in the sky-- well, that figure is a patently absurd creation of deranged human minds, as far as I'm concerned.

If, indeed, that alleged entity was the product of fertile imaginations born long ago in the erstwhile Fertile Crescent, I suspect that he, despite being invisible, started out a bit more tan and grew whiter as he was co-opted to reign over Europe.

Whatever.

It is my impression that he was definitely made in the image of his creators and then re-made in the image of his more technologically powerful co-opters. That is, if they similarly possessed the powers to run roughshod over any and everyone who stood in the way of their quest for world domination. Omnipotence, if you like. :D

So, what convinces you that you could know anything about an actual alleged god, if one exists out there in the universe?

[Eva]

listen, first up: we don't care much about the buyble. (that's bible for you).
second, i think you got scared into reforming yourself. that is great. you did not need any gods for that. you did this on your own.
third: depression is not a temporary sadness. it is diagnosed by a professional. maybe you were jut incredibly sad and despairing because your life was sucky. if you are not depressed anymore, maybe it is because you are taking responsibility for your actions.
fourth: gods are imaginary. yup, it's all in your head. if you hear voices in your head, go to a mental health specialist pronto.
fifth: god belief is the ultimate placebo, when the placebo effect fades, you still have to take care of your reality. be prepared. a lapse is to be expected. however, if you stop believing in sky-daddies, this can be avoided. your natural high will come from pride of your own accomplishments, and not from a silly, stone-age belief in imaginary brings.

glad to be of some help.

expect more "help" from others here soon.

[Irreligious]

Now I feel bad about my cheeky little post. ChrisAndrew is clearly not ready for such irreverent whimsy.

Seriously, ChrisAndrew, if you've found solace in your imaginary god figure and that is all that is keeping you from going off the rails again, then you surely don't need to be hanging around here.

I've never been a Christian, yet I've also never been compelled to deal illegal narcotics, abuse them, indiscriminately transmit STDs to others or otherwise hurt people who have done me no harm. Now I'm not claiming that any of that makes me special, but I've never required the services of an invisible god-man to get me through my life relatively unscathed. Folks who need what you do to survive usually have a very unhappy experience at ravingatheists.com.

[chrisandrew]

ok dingus. My parents never felt the need to lie to me, so I was not provided any religious instruction until I was capable of seeing it for what is was (at about age 8, and it came from local busy bodies, not my parents). Therefore, I have never been influenced enough to think that the absurdities of the buybull could be anything other than made up shit. That was obvious to me at age 8 (possibly younger), and it is no different now. This is one of the reasons why I consider those who really believe (many so-called theists are actually just liars who don't believe it anymore than I do) to have a mental age that is generally pre-teen (and, unfortunately, their mental age dictates their sexual predelictions).

I expect you to thank me for this information.
Thank you Choobus. I apprieciate your honesty.In regards to your comment ;profound! you agree with what Jesus said:" unless you turn and become like children , you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven."(Matthew18:3) You are very wise in the analysis of your observations, right on ! I did not get the sex thing . Thanks again .

[chrisandrew]

Now I feel bad about my cheeky little post. ChrisAndrew is clearly not ready for such irreverent whimsy.

Seriously, ChrisAndrew, if you've found solace in your imaginary god figure and that is all that is keeping you from going off the rails again, then you surely don't need to be hanging around here.

I've never been a Christian, yet I've also never been compelled to deal illegal narcotics, abuse them, indiscriminately transmit STDs to others or otherwise hurt people who have done me no harm. Now I'm not claiming that any of that makes me special, but I've never required the services of an invisible god-man to get me through my life relatively unscathed. Folks who need what you do to survive usually have a very unhappy experience at ravingatheists.com.
Irreligious stop immediately don't feel bad ! I appriciate you taking the time to give me your thoughts . I have heard much much worse from my own family(strangely they are atheists disguised as church goers). At least you would be honest about your position. Thank you. It is going to take alot more than sharp words to convince me to leave the rock I stand on(3:16) You see you dont reject me just my God(JESUS)I cannot be offended. Like Choobus said most theists are liars so thanks again for bieng honest about your position.

[Irreligious]

Well, if Jesus is the rock upon which you stand, why tread here? Seriously?

I mean, if you're secure in what you believe, why do you care what atheists think about it? You must know that most atheists find your beliefs preposterous.

And it doesn't seem to me that you could care one whit why that is. So, what is the point of "slumming," as it were? Are you hoping to be amused by some of the irreverence here? The place is brimming with it, if that's what you're after.

[Livingstrong]

thank you . You are right we are born with an atheist perspective . I was told to acknowledge God as a child but I didn't . I went on to not acknowledge any authority whatsoever (lawlessness) . Of course I hurt alot of people along the way , most of all I hurt myself (I was going off the rails on a crazytrain). Drug dealing, drug abuse , detectives, court cases, investigetions,prison,deportation,std's, paying for abortion,constantly lying ,stealing,rape... I was starting to scare myself after lying my way out of one prison sentence after another. I was not getting away with anything I was miserable , lonely , could not trust anyone . I was not in jail but it felt like it when finally I opened a small tract( christian) and read that Gods' will is that none should perish(2Peter3:9). I felt like I was perishing and said " God if it is your will I dont perish then , DO YOUR WILL I dont care what!". I felt things could not get any worse I can not trust anyone lets give God a shot(see what He want to do). Within 2 months everything was different, complete 180, my emotions my physical cicumstances(no more depresion ,no more wanting to drink or get high). One day I noticed I did not give a second look to a girl( I lived for whoremongering). I was content ! Amazed I said "God what happened to me?" I heard the voice of God , He said "you asked me to do my will"...... Huh allright so I keep asking God "DO YOUR WILL" and trying to do what Jesus said ( new testament),simple as that! The contentment is incredible the blessings are evident ! I never knew what it felt like to be loved or even what love was. I am not looking back unless I find a reason can you help me?

What I high-lighted: are you looking for help here in this forum to find a reason to look back so you can go back to stealing, drug dealing, STD's and rape :o ?
I don't understand what you want from us. Are you serious or you are just playing games here?
Could you explain better so I can understand you, please, because what you said makes no sense at all.
If you think your god has helped you to stay away from hurting yourself and others you better stay that way for now and go and look for psychiatric help. And I'm not saying this to hurt you, I'm saying this with serious concern for your mental health.

[chrisandrew]

Well, if Jesus is the rock upon which you stand, why tread here? Seriously?

I mean, if you're secure in what you believe, why do you care what atheists think about it? You must know that most atheists find your beliefs preposterous.

And it doesn't seem to me that you could care one whit why that is. So, what is the point of "slumming," as it were? Are you hoping to be amused by some of the irreverence here? The place is brimming with it, if that's what you're after.
I am need of perseverence. I plan on going to a country that is hostile towards christians (India). It will be a serious test of my faith and your forum is a perfect place to learn to endure vicious verbal attacks ,common arguments, and really learn about how nonbelievers feel so to exist peacefully with them. I know I could get killed over there but God told me to go.(I can imagine what you must be thinking) I dont want to die a violent death but as I continue to react to everyday situations by applying the teachings of Jesus I am finding out its all about serving God and others. If back out of it and go back to living for myself than I find myself back in the clubs, drugs,whores and I am scared to think of what else. I know its not right but I love to do evil if I can get away with it. My own ways lead to self destruction and pain for others, I know. In my case the best thing for every one is if I just do what Jesus said do. It might cost me my life but better me die, than for me return to being the old me. So for me its to be an extremist for the cause of Christ(love). I have to constantly examine myself to see if I am in the faith . If I am a hypocrite whats the point I am just lying to myself and be like all the other so-called christians lying to everyone else . I am sick of lying . I want tell the truth even if its unpopular. I got to live for Jesus everyone else is better off if I do , seriously better off. Again, thank you for challenging me, I believe you to be honest your opinions are of value. I want to understand how people feel , honest people make this easier. I know one thing I cant change me thats why I leave it up to God to make me who he wants me to be . I just tell God "Do whatever you want with me" and I feel secure ,at peace , content . I believe God to be omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and also loving me to the extreme , inspite of my evil deeds ,that he gave his Son for me .All I can do is be thankfull andgive him my life, so I am constantly. In this lonely world I find that what I want( need )the most is to be loved ,God has shown me he can more than satisfy that need . He also gives me the strength and courage to do what Jesus said . This is new to me before I would be partying hard all the time now I think about very deep things . I believe you also think about things deeply . Your point of view is something I want to understand . Thank you.

[chrisandrew]

What I high-lighted: are you looking for help here in this forum to find a reason to look back so you can go back to stealing, drug dealing, STD's and rape :o ?
I don't understand what you want from us. Are you serious or you are just playing games here?
Could you explain better so I can understand you, please, because what you said makes no sense at all.
If you think your god has helped you to stay away from hurting yourself and others you better stay that way for now and go and look for psychiatric help. And I'm not saying this to hurt you, I'm saying this with serious concern for your mental health.
Livingstrong, thanks , I am scared too, looking back for me is terifying ,but not having an answer to your legitament problems with christianity is something I have to deal with. I have to know, why I believe what I believe ,or else like you said "get help". No there is nothing anyone could say to make give up the truest love I have ever known. Hearing the arguments from both sides provokes me to seek more answers from God .This process strengthens my belief and gives me something to meditate on. Kind of like putting my faith into action, and when God reveals that which was hidden its very special to me (undescribable joy). So far I just heard some very mild unbelief founded on bad experiences (hypocrites etc..)but I know there is more out there if you will allow me.You see I have three brothers ,all church goers but when I talk to them they seem to believe in something but it does not seem to be Jesus . They are glad I am staying out of jail but really dont care why. They seem to be atheists going along with the church routine they inherited from thier parents. They have some amazing arguments (fierce),so twisted, they seem to throw all religions in a bag and mix in a heap of atheism, I wish they would pick a side like the folks here in the R.A.F. Sorry to bore you with my personal life ,but thats why I am here :to learn to understand us humans. Since getting off drugs I am starting to notice the things people who are not on drugs are doing , thinking, saying , believing, just want to know how and why these things are the way they are and the world is the way it is. You know the age old philosphical questions where am I , why am I here ,and my own muse" how come you dont need God like I need God?" Thank you for your input . respectfully yours, chris

[Mog]

I'd like to think that there are better ways to understand an atheist point of view than going to a random forum and typing as if you never heard of putting breaks in a paragraph.

And if I understand India, to us its a country of different-believers, not nonbelievers. We can't really help you understand Hindu beliefs or Muslim beliefs. Just understand that they have beliefs in Vishnu or Allah that aren't all that different from your belief in God. (In fact, an avatar of Vishnu named Krishna has quite a number of similarities to Jesus.http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr1.htm)

Also, keep in mind that generally speaking, Hinduism is a fairly tolerant religion. The history of violence between that religion and Islam and Christianity is due primarily from the latter's evangelistic and less tolerant natures. So if you aren't going to India to spread your newfound religion, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. If you are going to India as a missionary, then I would suggest learning more about your faith so you can best defend it against the many arguments that people make against it.

[chrisandrew]

I'd like to think that there are better ways to understand an atheist point of view than going to a random forum and typing as if you never heard of putting breaks in a paragraph.

And if I understand India, to us its a country of different-believers, not nonbelievers. We can't really help you understand Hindu beliefs or Muslim beliefs. Just understand that they have beliefs in Vishnu or Allah that aren't all that different from your belief in God. (In fact, an avatar of Vishnu named Krishna has quite a number of similarities to Jesus.http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jckr1.htm)

Also, keep in mind that generally speaking, Hinduism is a fairly tolerant religion. The history of violence between that religion and Islam and Christianity is due primarily from the latter's evangelistic and less tolerant natures. So if you aren't going to India to spread your newfound religion, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. If you are going to India as a missionary, then I would suggest learning more about your faith so you can best defend it against the many arguments that people make against it. Sorry about the bad typing. Yeah I cant keep quiet about what God has done for me so ,ok, call me a missionary. Thought I would find some genuine problems with christianity mentioned in the forum .(something to research) Thanks for the advice

[Philboid Studge]

No there is nothing anyone could say to make give up the truest love I have ever known. Hearing the arguments from both sides provokes me to seek more answers from God .This process strengthens my belief and gives me something to meditate on.

So you cannot admit even the possibility that you could be wrong about Jesus/God? Not very humble of you. Why then, should we waste our time "challenging" you?

But for the accident of your birth, you glommed onto Christianity to save you from yourself. Had you been born in say, India, perhaps you'd now be here testifying to the awesomeness of Vishnu, looking for pseudo "challenges" to a blue many-limbed deity.

I suggest you try the dodgy vindaloo* when you get over there; it will ensure that at least some of your shit comes flying out the right orifice.



*Fun fact: Vindaloo was introduced to India by Portuguese missionaries, who apparently couldn't resist stirring the shit in everything they touched.

[Irreligious]

... Thought I would find some genuine problems with christianity mentioned in the forum .(something to research) Thanks for the advice
Chris, you have got to be kidding us.

If you don't have a problem with believing in a triumvirate god who magically impregnated a 14-year-old virgin so he could give birth to himself and get tortured to death 33 years later only to re-animate 3 days afterwards all so you can be absolved of responsibility for your own gross misbehavior and live forever with him in some uncharted never-never land after you die, then you must be a genuinely guileless sort of bloke.

You're gonna believe what you need to believe. And if it keeps you from yielding to your baser predilections and screwing over other people, I say, why fuck with that? Please go with Jesus, if for no other reason than the safety of the rest of us.

[antix]

Sorry about the bad typing. Yeah I cant keep quiet about what God has done for me so ,ok, call me a missionary. Thought I would find some genuine problems with christianity mentioned in the forum .(something to research) Thanks for the advice

A few problems with Christianity (a complete list would occupy more space than an entire set of encyclopedias)

1- the attributes Christian's (typically) assign to god. An omniscient being cannot possibly be omnipotent at the same time. Why, you might ask? Because omniscience by it's very nature presents limits in potential power.

Some examples of this are... an omniscient being cannot have the power to change it's mind. If it sees into the future, then that future is set no matter what. If that future were to change, then their was no omniscience to begin with.

Omniscience also completely wipes out any notion of free will for others, as well as its own self. If such a being knows your actions ahead of time, you cannot possibly choose to do otherwise. Meaning that if this god of yours exists as claimed, you were then not the least bit responsible for your past actions.


2- the bible itself. This book is riddled with so much bloodshed and hatred (and that's not even counting the plain ol' batshit fucking crazy nonsense) that the god contained within it's pages make your past actions look like those of a PTA mother at a bake sale.

some examples:
- god once sent bears to maul children for making a few bald jokes.
- god once instructed his peeps to be happy as they smashed children against rocks.
- punishment for gathering sticks on god's special day is to be stoned to death
- punishment for rapists is to marry the victim and pay her father 50 sheckles. while disobedient children are to be stoned to death.
- god is on record as having thrown the biggest, most childish hissy fit in the history of the world (the flood story) killing everything, man woman and child (even puppies and kittens) save for a handful on a boat, because he (an omniscient being) didn't like the way mankind turned out, even though he (an omnipotent creator) made them in a way that they had no choice but to be.

The list could, of course, go on and on. I'd just like to finish this up by saying that this alleged god of yours, if he exists, is the biggest self righteous manipulative douchewizard that could possibly exist.

[Philboid Studge]

If you don't have a problem with believing in a triumvirate god who magically impregnated a 14-year-old virgin so he could give birth to himself and get tortured to death 33 years later only to re-animate 3 days afterwards all so you can be absolved of responsibility for your own gross misbehavior and live forever with him in some uncharted never-never land after you die, then you must be a genuinely guileless sort of bloke.

The only factoid I'd question in the above is that zombie Jeezuz absolves "for your own gross misbehavior." I thought the Li'l Bastard was taking care of the shartstain left by Adam & Steve's gross violation of Killy McYaweh's first rule: Thou shalt not seek knowledge. Sins of the father and all that ...

[Lily]

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Lily56AL/smilies/sad-1.gif

Antix, Antix, Antix. Have I been with you so long and you still believe this stuff?

*The flood is mythology.

*The bears took care of the "not children" (teenagers) who didn't make a bald joke "Go up" is a euphemism for "up yours" and not a good thing to have said to a prophet ... It is a nasty story, however.

*It is the psalmist who takes pleasure in thinking of dashing the kiddie brains of his enemies against the rocks, not God.

*laws against Sabbath breaking and other such are appropriate to a late iron age tribal culture.

The list could go on and on.

[Mog]

Well, I was trying to be subtle here, and hope that by chrisandrew's studying of his faith and other religions, he'd have figured all this stuff out for himself. Now you guys have to tell him all the spoilers early. Nice going!
Well I suppose its better if we can deconvert him now before he can sway dozens of Indians off the path of rationality or different irrationality.

Go away, Lily. Your Liberal interpretations of god's words isn't helping things!

[ubs]

Wow guys. Just like my cats. The only evidence that a theist was even here is a little blood on the sidewalk. Even the bones were eaten.

[Irreligious]

The only factoid I'd question in the above is that zombie Jeezuz absolves "for your own gross misbehavior." I thought the Li'l Bastard was taking care of the shartstain left by Adam & Steve's gross violation of Killy McYaweh's first rule: Thou shalt not seek knowledge. Sins of the father and all that ...
Hmm... I always thought the Christoids sought absolution for their own "sins," which they often blame for their bad behavior because, well, they were born into, or rather, heir to it courtesy of those original primates, Adamy & Evie.

[Philboid Studge]

You could be right, Irr. Who can keep up with this wacky theology, anyway? But if it keeps disturbed individuals from letting their ids run amok then I guess it's not completely useless.

[Eva]

kids, you are all in top shape today....hope some of it sinks in....

(not you, lily. hehehehe)

[Lily]

Well, I was trying to be subtle here, and hope that by chrisandrew's studying of his faith and other religions, he'd have figured all this stuff out for himself. Now you guys have to tell him all the spoilers early. Nice going!
Well I suppose its better if we can deconvert him now before he can sway dozens of Indians off the path of rationality or different irrationality.

Go away, Lily. Your Liberal interpretations of god's words isn't helping things!

Thank you for proving my point. You are just as much a fundamentalist, as the people you deride. No one considers me a liberal theologically except ... fundamentalists!

[Mog]

Thank you for proving my point. You are just as much a fundamentalist, as the people you deride. No one considers me a liberal theologically except ... fundamentalists!

Nope, I don't consider you a liberal. Thats why I capitalized it. For all your talk about us not seeing your classical allusions, you fail to see when I'm making one.

I guess sarcasm doesn't show up well on bulletin boards.. I should have put the words in quotes too I suppose.

[Irreligious]

Thank you for proving my point. You are just as much a fundamentalist, as the people you deride. No one considers me a liberal theologically except ... fundamentalists!
That's a bullshit argument when Francis uses it and it don't smell no better when you type it out.

Theist or atheist, we're all fundamentalists when it comes to the concrete. If you were standing at the precipice of a tall cliff, you'd be fundamentally inclined to watch your balance, if you know what's good for you.

Edited: You know very well what Mog means by your "liberal" interpretation of ancient texts. A pretzel would envy the contortions you've accomplished to make the words in those withered old scrolls conform to your skewed view of the world. Mog means liberal, as in your taking many liberties with what those mystical old goat-herders actually meant when they allegedly wrote the Scriptures.

[nkb]

I heard the voice of God , He said "you asked me to do my will"
This is fascinating. Would you care to describe to us this voice?

Was it a booming voice, or a timid voice? Did you hear it with your ears, or was it in your mind? If the former, did anyone else hear him talking to you?

Which of the three spoke to you? Was it God himself, or Jesus, or even the Holy Spirit?

[Lily]

(Meaningless stuff snipped.)

Edited: You know very well what Mog means by your "liberal" interpretation of ancient texts. A pretzel would envy the contortions you've accomplished to make the words in those withered old scrolls conform to your skewed view of the world. Mog means liberal, as in your taking many liberties with what those mystical old goat-herders actually meant when they allegedly wrote the Scriptures.

I told you I was tired of biting my tongue at your foolish tirades and so I am not going to do it any more. Particularly not when you make the stupid, ill-tempered statements that you make here.

1. What argument? I made no argument. I made an assertion in response to an unusually foolish remark by Mog, even by moggy standards. I know exactly what Mog meant. He, like you, is absolutely clueless.

2. Your absolute ignorance of biblical scholarship, and it is absolute, means that you do not have a clue as to how middle of the road and widely held my views are. Not a clue. They are widely held. They are middle of the road. They are easily found in reference works, commentaries, etc. The only one with a skewed vision here is you and those who think like you.

It is not a sin to be ignorant. But it sure is a shame. It becomes a sin at the point that it is willful. Where, exactly, are you on that particular continuum?

[Mog]

It is not a sin to be ignorant. But it sure is a shame. It becomes a sin at the point that it is willful. Where, exactly, are you on that particular continuum?Hey, given that you choose to listen to the voices in your head over more reasonable options, perhaps its you who are willfully ignorant?

The problem with most biblical scholarship is that most biblical scholars are predetermined to interpret the bible with the assumption that the works really are inspired by god. so when the words clash with our more pragmatic outlook, we get choosy about how to interpret them, instead of considering that maybe the words really were literal.

Anyway, given that Chrisandrew wants the full atheist adversarial experience, maybe you should butt out of this thread and let him answer our comments himself?

[Lily]

(Silly stuff snipped.)...
The problem with most biblical scholarship is that most biblical scholars are predetermined to interpret the bible with the assumption that the works really are inspired by god. so when the words clash with our more pragmatic outlook, we get choosy about how to interpret them, instead of considering that maybe the words really were literal.

Like I said. This is clueless. You don't have even the faintest notion what scholarship is or how history is done.

One does not need to be a believer to do biblical scholarship. No, most scholars are not "predetermined" (predisposed, maybe-- or not) to interpret according to what they want to find. That is simply ignorance of how scholarship works. You can't make the evidence up, you know. All you can do is make stronger or less strong cases based on what is there. Since believers are not a monolith, assumptions get challenged all the time. Then there are the non-believers to contend with, too.

The proof of this, if you had any idea how to go about testing my claims, would be to use an index like Web of Science, Academic Search Premiere, or SocIndex, or the ATLA Religion database or any one of a dozen other relevant indexes and take a look at the divergence of views on any topic you care to pursue.

You just don't have a clue what scholarship is.

[ILOVEJESUS]

something to do with shoes i think

[Mog]

Like I said. This is clueless. You don't have even the faintest notion what scholarship is or how history is done.

One does not need to be a believer to do biblical scholarship. No, most scholars are not "predetermined" (predisposed, maybe-- or not) to interpret according to what they want to find. That is simply ignorance of how scholarship works. You can't make the evidence up, you know. All you can do is make stronger or less strong cases based on what is there. Since believers are not a monolith, assumptions get challenged all the time. Then there are the non-believers to contend with, too.

The proof of this, if you had any idea how to go about testing my claims, would be to use an index like Web of Science, Academic Search Premiere, or SocIndex, or the ATLA Religion database or any one of a dozen other relevant indexes and take a look at the divergence of views on any topic you care to pursue.

You just don't have a clue what scholarship is.

I know that biblical scholarships have nothing to do with science, Lily.

Unlike with hard science, historical bias is difficult to remove. With much of history, you can make evidence up. We can try to evaluate different texts to eliminate observer bias, but its always going to be there. Thats why I can't just say, "go talk to the experts." Can we be really certain that something really happened or were we just told it did because others said it did, and the story gained momentum because people didn't have the knowledge to disagree with it? We're finding out that not only Genesis, but Exodus isn't really all that accurate, but not through looking over the bible but from our modern archeology.

Not that it matters much. I know philosophically that the Christian god doesn't exist. All this wrangling around with what the bible tells us is just wasting our time, but don't tell those biblical scholars that. They 'd be out of a job.

[Irreligious]

I told you I was tired of biting my tongue at your foolish tirades and so I am not going to do it any more. Particularly not when you make the stupid, ill-tempered statements that you make here.

1. What argument? I made no argument. I made an assertion in response to an unusually foolish remark by Mog, even by moggy standards. I know exactly what Mog meant. He, like you, is absolutely clueless.

2. Your absolute ignorance of biblical scholarship, and it is absolute, means that you do not have a clue as to how middle of the road and widely held my views are. Not a clue. They are widely held. They are middle of the road. They are easily found in reference works, commentaries, etc. The only one with a skewed vision here is you and those who think like you.

It is not a sin to be ignorant. But it sure is a shame. It becomes a sin at the point that it is willful. Where, exactly, are you on that particular continuum?
Girlfriend, I am not the slightest bit impressed when you start calling me ignorant on the topic of your ignorant bullshit. Biblical scholarship is, to me, about as useful as learning the rules of Klingon grammar. I ain't got no use for it. And I don't intend to deal with your nonsense or your terms. Certainly not here, in an atheist forum. If you find that to be uncharitable and ill-tempered, well tough titty, honey. This ain't no apologetics seminar. Despite the meaningless nonsense you are trying to lay on me now, I stand by the contents of my last post.

[Lily]

Girlfriend, I am not the slightest bit impressed when you start calling me ignorant on the topic of your ignorant bullshit. Biblical scholarship is, to me, about as useful as learning the rules of Klingon grammar. I ain't got no use for it. And I don't intend to deal with your nonsense or your terms. Certainly not here, in an atheist forum. If you find that to be uncharitable and ill-tempered, well tough titty, honey. This ain't no apologetics seminar. Despite the meaningless nonsense you are trying to lay on me now, I stand by the contents of my last post.

The issue isn't whether you find it useful or not. The study of ancient languages, cultures, history, archaeology etc., which is where biblical scholarship is squarely located, doesn't need to be useful to you to be worthy of study and to have preoccupied many talented and gifted scholars. Your ignorance is your shame. Your unwillingness to learn is lamentable and laughable.

[Irreligious]

The issue isn't whether you find it useful or not. The study of ancient languages, cultures, history, archaeology etc., which is where biblical scholarship is squarely located, doesn't need to be useful to you to be worthy of study and to have preoccupied many talented and gifted scholars. Your ignorance is your shame. Your unwillingness to learn is lamentable and laughable.
Sweetheart, I could say the same about you. You've been here for over two years and you haven't learned shit. And you ain't even trying. And I'm not laughing, because it's pathetic.

As an atheist, what the fuck do I care about your stupid religion? How could it not be abundantly plain to you by now that I think it's garbage? I've told you over and over and over again that if you want to drink swill, that's your business, but you're going to keep trying to get me and others here to drink from your nasty goblet of ignorance. Ain't gonna happen, sister. I have never been that ignorant.

[Lily]

Sweetheart, I could say the same about you. You've been here for over two years and you haven't learned shit. And you ain't even trying. And I'm not laughing, because it's pathetic. No. Actually you can't say the same.

As an atheist, what the fuck do I care about your stupid religion? How could it not be abundantly plain to you by now that I think it's garbage? I've told you over and over and over again that if you want to drink swill, that's your business, but you're going to keep trying to get me and others here to drink from your nasty goblet of ignorance. Ain't gonna happen, sister. I have never been that ignorant.

You embrace ignorance. You actually embrace it. Do you suppose that every scholar; not to mention every New or Old Testament B. A. on the planet thinks that my "stupid" religion is true? You are painfully ignorant of the real world. What are you afraid of?

It is incomprehensible to me that a man who claims (I think) to have a college education, could possibly be oblivious to the presence of graduate and undergraduate programs in all areas touching on or dealing with religion!

Let's see: Vanderbilt offers an MA and PH.D in History and Critical Theories of Religion, Stanford offers and MA and PH.D in Religious studies; Harvard offers a Ph.D in religion apart from the degrees offered in its Divinity School; like Harvard, Princeton offers a Ph. D. in Near Eastern Studies and in ... you guessed it, Religious studies. In fact this semester they offered a whole grad level course called:
REL 512
Special Topics in the Study of Religion: The Binding of Isaac in Ancient Judaism and Christianity
Professor(s): Martha Himmelfarb

I could multiply examples but I would be here all day. Within almost all of these programs, including those in Depts of archaeology, history and philosophy, and ancient languages, one can emphasize particular religious or biblical areas of study. And this isn't even the tip of the iceberg.

Fancy that.

[Isilmë]

You embrace ignorance. You actually embrace it. Do you suppose that every scholar; not to mention every New or Old Testament B. A. on the planet thinks that my "stupid" religion is true?

duh. who else would want to spend so much time looking at the bible?

You are painfully ignorant of the real world. What are you afraid of?

quite the contrary. the bible is ignorant of the real world.
why, for example, would i want to study biblical creationism when before even looking at it i know it's nonsense?

It is incomprehensible to me that a man who claims (I think) to have a college education, could possibly be oblivious to the presence of graduate and undergraduate programs in all areas touching on or dealing with religion!

but you are talking about only one religion.
a degree in only one religion would be useless unless you actually wanted to become a scholar or teacher of that religion. perhaps a degree that covers a wide range of religious views would be more useful?


Let's see: Vanderbilt offers an MA and PH.D in History and Critical Theories of Religion, Stanford offers and MA and PH.D in Religious studies; Harvard offers a Ph.D in religion apart from the degrees offered in its Divinity School; like Harvard, Princeton offers a Ph. D. in Near Eastern Studies and in ... you guessed it, Religious studies. In fact this semester they offered a whole grad level course called:
REL 512
Special Topics in the Study of Religion: The Binding of Isaac in Ancient Judaism and Christianity
Professor(s): Martha Himmelfarb

those degrees actually deal with different religions as well.

[Lily]

duh. who else would want to spend so much time looking at the bible? ...
quite the contrary. the bible is ignorant of the real world.
why, for example, would i want to study biblical creationism when before even looking at it i know it's nonsense? :doh: This has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the scholarly study of the Bible or Judaism or Christianity or ....

You might be able to study it for a week or two in an undergraduate anthropology, sociology or, even, political science class, etc.
but you are talking about only one religion. No, actually I am not, although my interest is primarily Christianity, Judaism and the Bible.

a degree in only one religion would be useless unless you actually wanted to become a scholar or teacher of that religion. Yes, and there are people out there who do want to be specialists, although your degree would not be called "Christianity" or "Islam", or whatever, It would be called "Religious studies" with an emphasis on whatever fields or subfields were of interest.

perhaps a degree that covers a wide range of religious views would be more useful? That is normally what a B. A. and an M.A. program do. You need to specialize at the Ph. D. level in some field or another.

those degrees actually deal with different religions as well.

:wall: No kidding.

You mean well but you mix yourself in discussions that are completely over your head. (you I forgive because you are just now off to university and enthusiastic. Forgiving the oldsters is a lot harder.) Before weighing in on this one, would it not have made more sense to go out and look at the programs of study, the specialities, and the courses offered just at one of the very fine universities in your own country, so that you would have a good grasp of the staggering breadth of areas some one interested in the scholarly world of religion (or one of the particular religions) has to choose among?

[nkb]

Isilme,
The arrogant condescension you are seeing is a Lily trademark. I think she actually gets excited when she doles it out.

[Isilmë]

This has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the scholarly study of the Bible or Judaism or Christianity or ....

You mean well but you mix yourself in discussions that are completely over your head. (you I forgive because you are just now off to university and enthusiastic. Forgiving the oldsters is a lot harder.) Before weighing in on this one, would it not have made more sense to go out and look at the programs of study, the specialities, and the courses offered just at one of the very fine universities in your own country, so that you would have a good grasp of the staggering breadth of areas some one interested in the scholarly world of religion (or one of the particular religions) has to choose among?

i apologise, i misread your first statement.
but please, don't patronize me.

[Kate]

http://scifipedia.scifi.com/images/9/93/KLIlogo.gif

[Kate]

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/06/12/Vulcan_wideweb__470x352,0.jpg

[chrisandrew]

listen, first up: we don't care much about the buyble. (that's bible for you).
second, i think you got scared into reforming yourself. that is great. you did not need any gods for that. you did this on your own.
third: depression is not a temporary sadness. it is diagnosed by a professional. maybe you were jut incredibly sad and despairing because your life was sucky. if you are not depressed anymore, maybe it is because you are taking responsibility for your actions.
fourth: gods are imaginary. yup, it's all in your head. if you hear voices in your head, go to a mental health specialist pronto.
fifth: god belief is the ultimate placebo, when the placebo effect fades, you still have to take care of your reality. be prepared. a lapse is to be expected. however, if you stop believing in sky-daddies, this can be avoided. your natural high will come from pride of your own accomplishments, and not from a silly, stone-age belief in imaginary brings.

glad to be of some help.

expect more "help" from others here soon.
Eva ,thank you , great I understand you so much better . How do you decide what is right and wrong ? Since you dont care much about the bible where do you get the code of ethics you live by ?

[Kate]

http://klingonska.org/pic/punct2.gif

[chrisandrew]

[quote=Philboid Studge;485901]So you cannot admit even the possibility that you could be wrong about Jesus/God? Not very humble of you. Why then, should we waste our time "challenging" you?

But for the accident of your birth, you glommed onto Christianity to save you from yourself. Had you been born in say, India, perhaps you'd now be testifying to the awesomeness of Vishnu, looking for pseudo .
Philboid , I admit to this : I am a prolific sinner, and Jesus is only spiritual figure in history who claims to die for the sins of the whole entire world .(3:16) I love the Truth so if you prove to me I am in error I would have a reason to accept the possibility of being wrong about Jesus/God. Oh by the way I was born in India.

[Sternwallow]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus. I am male , 32 yoa , raised as a catholic ( till I refused to participate). I have recently (as of 3 years now) decided to follow the teachings of Jesus (as described in the new testament). I am interested in apologetics so would like to learn the position of those who represent any and all system of beliefs. Please feel free to also question me about the hope that is in me . I do not adhere to any organization , so for now all answers about my beliefs will be solo scriptura. Thanks for having me!
Welcome, but you should understand up front that atheism is not a system of beliefs nor a worldview nor a set of behaviors.

My first question: where did you get authority to greet anyone in the name of Jesus? Why would we, or anyone, credit your warrant, if you claim to have one, for doing so?

I, in particular, also operate under the principle of sola scriptura because the Bible must be the word of God to be worth more than any human-written book. I also work under the principle of crapola scriptura whereby the astounding number of errors and lies in the Bible guarantee that it is NOT, in fact, the word of God.

Your interest in apologetics may be lost here simply because we do not credit the Bible with any degree of unique truth.

I hope that, with care and civility, we can have an interesting dialog.

[Sternwallow]

thank you . You are right we are born with an atheist perspective . I was told to acknowledge God as a child but I didn't . I went on to not acknowledge any authority whatsoever (lawlessness) . Of course I hurt alot of people along the way , most of all I hurt myself (I was going off the rails on a crazytrain). Drug dealing, drug abuse , detectives, court cases, investigetions,prison,deportation,std's, paying for abortion,constantly lying ,stealing,rape... I was starting to scare myself after lying my way out of one prison sentence after another. I was not getting away with anything I was miserable , lonely , could not trust anyone . I was not in jail but it felt like it when finally I opened a small tract( christian) and read that Gods' will is that none should perish(2Peter3:9). I felt like I was perishing and said " God if it is your will I dont perish then , DO YOUR WILL I dont care what!". I felt things could not get any worse I can not trust anyone lets give God a shot(see what He want to do). Within 2 months everything was different, complete 180, my emotions my physical cicumstances(no more depresion ,no more wanting to drink or get high). One day I noticed I did not give a second look to a girl( I lived for whoremongering). I was content ! Amazed I said "God what happened to me?" I heard the voice of God , He said "you asked me to do my will"...... Huh allright so I keep asking God "DO YOUR WILL" and trying to do what Jesus said ( new testament),simple as that! The contentment is incredible the blessings are evident ! I never knew what it felt like to be loved or even what love was. I am not looking back unless I find a reason can you help me?
I see another citizen of the real world ruined by hallucinations caused by perceived powerlessness, privation, low self esteem and self-induced depression.

Do you really believe that God wants you to be posting on a site that could very well shake your faith to its very foundations? Do you have any hope of saving one or more souls here when doing so would jeopardize your own slot in the limited seating (144,000) heaven?

When you hear God speaking to you, does He use your own voice? Why didn't God tell US that He was sending you here for mutual edification?

That is enough questions from me for a start.

Again, welcome.

[Eva]

Eva ,thank you , great I understand you so much better . How do you decide what is right and wrong ? Since you dont care much about the bible where do you get the code of ethics you live by ?

listen, while you were busy screwing up your life, you knew what was right, but but didn't care enough about yourself to do the right thing. the bible has plenty of examples of what is wrong, and it was done in the name of god. our "code" of ethics, is really what we learned from our parents, our community, those we respect, and the concious desire to not do to others what you don't want them to do to you. (this last one, the golden rule, is not biblical, if you were wondering. it precedes the bible by quite a few centuries.)
the bible has some examples of how to do right, but really: it is no reason to believe the god of the bible. just in the same way that you would not commit the atrocities shown also in the bible in the name of the god. that would be silly, and destructive.
that little voice in your head telling you what to do, if we are sure that you do not have a mental illness that causes them, can only be your own conscience telling you how to do things in a way that seem moral to you.

jesus, your version of a god, is imaginary, it only lives in your head. there are no gods.

[Sternwallow]

Just as a matter of effective writing, a few more paragraphs might be helpful.
I am need of perseverence. I plan on going to a country that is hostile towards christians (India). It will be a serious test of my faith and your forum is a perfect place to learn to endure vicious verbal attacks ,common arguments, and really learn about how nonbelievers feel so to exist peacefully with them. I know I could get killed over there but God told me to go.(I can imagine what you must be thinking) I dont want to die a violent death but as I continue to react to everyday situations by applying the teachings of Jesus I am finding out its all about serving God and others. If back out of it and go back to living for myself than I find myself back in the clubs, drugs,whores and I am scared to think of what else. I know its not right but I love to do evil if I can get away with it. My own ways lead to self destruction and pain for others, I know. In my case the best thing for every one is if I just do what Jesus said do. It might cost me my life but better me die, than for me return to being the old me. So for me its to be an extremist for the cause of Christ(love).
Then you do not see "putting your life in God's hands" or relying on Jesus to direct you as abandoning your own responsibility for your behavior?
I have to constantly examine myself to see if I am in the faith . If I am a hypocrite whats the point I am just lying to myself and be like all the other so-called christians lying to everyone else . I am sick of lying . I want tell the truth even if its unpopular.Do you not see a distinction between living the truth (as you see it) versus imposing your view of what's true on others?
I got to live for Jesus everyone else is better off if I do , seriously better off. Again, thank you for challenging me, I believe you to be honest your opinions are of value. I want to understand how people feel , honest people make this easier.I find atheists commonly more truthful than people who are certain that they can lie and cheat and steal and even kill and yet be completely forgiven as though they never harmed anyone, by the simple asking.
I know one thing I cant change me thats why I leave it up to God to make me who he wants me to be .Do you not believe that God made you the way He wanted you to be when He made you the first time? How did you come by all of that "evil"? Did you desire to do evil or did you desire to do things which are considered by some, to be evil acts? There is a big difference. I am willing to bet that you never awoke in the morning and said to yourself: "I wonder how many evil acts I can do today".
I just tell God "Do whatever you want with me" and I feel secure ,at peace , content .This is abrogation of personal responsibly just as much as a citizen of a totalitarian regime who says "I will do anything whatever that my leader commands."
I believe God to be omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and also loving me to the extreme , inspite of my evil deeds ,that he gave his Son for me .Do you think that a few hours of pain, three days of sleep and a soft spot in heaven (still living), are somehow equivalent punishment for all the sins of humanity for all time, when compared to an eternity of torment for any tiny unforgiven transgression by a single human?
All I can do is be thankfull andgive him my life, so I am [doing so] constantly.I respectfully disagree. You can take charge of your life and make, for yourself, exactly those changes that you think are being scripted by Jesus.
In this lonely world I find that what I want( need )the most is to be loved ,God has shown me he can more than satisfy that need .Being loved is easy. Just love someone else and soon others will love you back a hundred fold (often when you least expect it [Gnosi]). The thin, sterile and silent love offered by God, the love whose fullest expression is permitting you to spend eternity in servile praise of His glory, is wholly inadequate to be called "love", hardly worth calling "like" (it feels like "hell" to me).
He also gives me the strength and courage to do what Jesus said .The strength and courage to place your life in thrall to Jesus is exactly the strength and courage that you already had for solving your own problems. You (and almost everyone) are unaware of the power you actually possess to be the author of your own improvement. God does not, in my experience, add any strength, He adds complications to already complex situations.
This is new to me[. ]before I would be partying hard all the time now I think about very deep things . I believe you also think about things deeply . Your point of view is something I want to understand . Thank you.Please understand that people who do not believe in an afterlife still can have morals and lead upstanding lives of love, kindness, generosity, hope and even joy.

[Sternwallow]

Sorry about the bad typing. Yeah I cant keep quiet about what God has done for me so ,ok, call me a missionary. Thought I would find some genuine problems with christianity mentioned in the forum .(something to research) Thanks for the advice
We have been remarkably quiet in criticizing Christianity to you so far. I'm not sure why except that you have been reasonably respectful and have not SHOUTED dogma at us.

You risk opening a rather dank sack of worms if you want to really discuss the myriad problems with Christianity, but, if you feel up to it, go ahead.

You mention wanting to spread the wonderful word of God's actions in your life, I understand. I recommend that you search your deepest psyche to be very sure why you want to do this. If, for instance, you wish to do your part to fulfill the "Great Commission", you can stop right away because the Great Commission is without merit (historically, logically and practically). If you are so filled with the truth you have just discovered that you simply can't contain it, then stop immediately and get independent validation that what you will be peddling IS the truth and not just wonderful inner feelings known to you alone. If you would do this "for the greater glory of God", you can forget it since God has no need for any more glory and neither you nor I have the power to give any to Him. Doing anything whatsoever for the Greater Glory of God makes no more sense than offering to pay part of the rent on His throne in heaven.

[chrisandrew]

A few problems with Christianity (a complete list would occupy more space than an entire set of encyclopedias)

1- the attributes Christian's (typically) assign to god. An omniscient being cannot possibly be omnipotent at the same time. Why, you might ask? Because omniscience by it's very nature presents limits in potential power.

Some examples of this are... an omniscient being cannot have the power to change it's mind. If it sees into the future, then that future is set no matter what. If that future were to change, then their was no omniscience to begin with.

Omniscience also completely wipes out any notion of free will for others, as well as its own self. If such a being knows your actions ahead of time, you cannot possibly choose to do otherwise. Meaning that if this god of yours exists as claimed, you were then not the least bit responsible for your past actions.


2- the bible itself. This book is riddled with so much bloodshed and hatred (and that's not even counting the plain ol' batshit fucking crazy nonsense) that the god contained within it's pages make your past actions look like those of a PTA mother at a bake sale.

some examples:
- god once sent bears to maul children for making a few bald jokes.
- god once instructed his peeps to be happy as they smashed children against rocks.
- punishment for gathering sticks on god's special day is to be stoned to death
- punishment for rapists is to marry the victim and pay her father 50 sheckles. while disobedient children are to be stoned to death.
- god is on record as having thrown the biggest, most childish hissy fit in the history of the world (the flood story) killing everything, man woman and child (even puppies and kittens) save for a handful on a boat, because he (an omniscient being) didn't like the way mankind turned out, even though he (an omnipotent creator) made them in a way that they had no choice but to be.

The list could, of course, go on and on. I'd just like to finish this up by saying that this alleged god of yours, if he exists, is the biggest self righteous manipulative douchewizard that could possibly exist.
Antix, do you have free will?

[Choobus]

Chris, do you do anal?

[chrisandrew]

This is fascinating. Would you care to describe to us this voice?

Was it a booming voice, or a timid voice? Did you hear it with your ears, or was it in your mind? If the former, did anyone else hear him talking to you?

Which of the three spoke to you? Was it God himself, or Jesus, or even the Holy Spirit? I was driving down the road and noticed some girl pumping gas at the gas station dressed in very little . After the first minuscule glance I did not look again. Amazed at the reaction ,which for me would be to fully acknowledge any and every woman proclaiming herself as an eger whore by her dress code till eye contact was made and maybe make some further conversation. I did not do the usual. I was dumbfounded so I asked God: "what happened to me ?" The answer came imediatly " you asked me to do my will" . It was like hearing my voice in my thoughts but in a voice that I could not duplicate , I know because I tried to reapeat the message and it just did not sound the same. NO LIE ! I did not ask the voice to identify itself because I was still trying to figure out the answer. At the same time as I heard the voice I was reminded of the prayer I said nearly 2 months prior asking God to : "just do your will".

[Eva]

sorry, chris. you imagined this.

[JU Mike]

I was not born believing in the message of Jesus . I made a decision based on valid reason. I will share them if you like or not. Were any of you born athiests or did you decide to become one because of some reason ? I respectfully would ask you please share . If you would I would be thankful.

You made a decision based on valid reason? What kind of valid reason? Yes I was born an atheist just like we all were, next I was raised catholic (without my consent) and eventually I grew out of it and became an atheist. Atheist as in the lack of belief in god.

[chrisandrew]

I see another citizen of the real world ruined by hallucinations caused by perceived powerlessness, privation, low self esteem and self-induced depression.

Do you really believe that God wants you to be posting on a site that could very well shake your faith to its very foundations? Do you have any hope of saving one or more souls here when doing so would jeopardize your own slot in the limited seating (144,000) heaven?

When you hear God speaking to you, does He use your own voice? Why didn't God tell US that He was sending you here for mutual edification?

That is enough questions from me for a start.

Again, welcome.
Sir, thank you! 1. I am certain God wants me share what he has done for me . No need to wonder if there is a God . If you ask him scincerely to do whatever he wants with you something will happen. 2 . I have no doubts about Gods' love either. 3. I heard his voice just like I hear my thoughts but I cant duplicate it . It sounds different than my thoughts. 4. I will pray that God (Jesus) will speak to you.

[JU Mike]

Chris, do you do anal?

Haven't seen you say that in a while.

[chrisandrew]

listen, while you were busy screwing up your life, you knew what was right, but but didn't care enough about yourself to do the right thing. the bible has plenty of examples of what is wrong, and it was done in the name of god. our "code" of ethics, is really what we learned from our parents, our community, those we respect, and the concious desire to not do to others what you don't want them to do to you. (this last one, the golden rule, is not biblical, if you were wondering. it precedes the bible by quite a few centuries.)


the bible has some examples of how to do right, but really: it is no reason to believe the god of the bible. just in the same way that you would not commit the atrocities shown also in the bible in the name of the god. that would be silly, and destructive.
that little voice in your head telling you what to do, if we are sure that you do not have a mental illness that causes them, can only be your own conscience telling you how to do things in a way that seem moral to you.








jesus, your version of a god, is imaginary, it only lives in your head. there are no gods.Eva , I appreciate your thoughts. What was the right thing , looking for "the American dream"? Seriously, is it? I realize now all I wanted all along was to be loved. It didnt happen so I just did what I thought was fun. Sure, the "golden rule" , maybe if its convienient ; but if there is no God to answer to ,and if its not convienient, what compels me to submit to this "golden rule"? The authorities? Look at the news corruption abounds . If people think they can get away with something they try to get away with it.

Please, please forgive me I dont mean to offend, but do you believe morals to be the answer? If so , how do you teach said morals, and where did they originate from?



Is this perspective what they call humanism?
thank you for your patience , chris

[Isilmë]

If so , how do you teach said morals, and where did they originate from?
Is this perspective what they call humanism?


basic morals are a result of evolution. you can see evidence of basic morals in chimps, e.g. if when a chimp recieved food, another chimp gets a shock, the chimp will avoid the food so as to prevent the other chimp from experiencing pain. these kind of morals are necessary for the survival of the species. have you ever seen meerkat manor?
you can plainly see complex morals have changed over time, as society evolves, as humans have become more intelligent. the morals of a few hundred years ago could be seen as barbaric compared to today. there is no such thing as good and evil: only what we make them out to be.

Humanism rejects the supernatural, trancendental justifications and texts of 'divine origin'. it is centred on human experience, thoughts and hopes.
Humansim is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities — particularly rationality.

The humanist Manifesto (III):

- Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis.
- Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change.
- Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience.
- Life’s fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals.
- Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships.
Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness.

(source: Wikipedia)

[Sternwallow]

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Lily56AL/smilies/sad-1.gif

Antix, Antix, Antix. Have I been with you so long and you still believe this stuff?

*The flood is mythology.

*The bears took care of the "not children" (teenagers) who didn't make a bald joke "Go up" is a euphemism for "up yours" and not a good thing to have said to a prophet ... It is a nasty story, however.

*It is the psalmist who takes pleasure in thinking of dashing the kiddie brains of his enemies against the rocks, not God.

*laws against Sabbath breaking and other such are appropriate to a late iron age tribal culture.

The list could go on and on.
Bovina, Bovina, Bovina. You still denigrate the Bible by characterizing parts of it (your choice of parts with no rationale) as myth and metaphor and even as not representing God's attitude at all.

* The Flood is at least a description of the character and attitude and, I may say base limitations, of God even if it never actually happened. Despite all of the evidence that it didn't happen, it is still taught as a central fact and one of the greatest miracles of God to impressionable children.

* The bears "took care of" i.e. murdered 42 young people acting according to their nature (and obviously without adequate adult training or supervision) by a direct act of God.

* You know that the psalmist is writing ex officio on God's behalf and with God's portrayed approval. It is entirely consistent with other direct acts of this horrible little God like genocide, sex slavery and slicing pregnant women.

* Laws against picking up sticks, an act that would not be done if it weren't necessary (or else it is an even less rational hobby than counting gravel), are not appropriate to even an iron age tribal culture (contra-survival). More importantly to us, those laws were endorsed by Jesus and all of His pronouncements are supposedly applicable to modern man regardless of his tribe affiliation. Again you treat the Bible like an electric "Doctor" game where you must use tweezers to carefully lift out the tiny desirable parts leaving behind all of the gross crudely painted cardboard.

The list of your squirming weasel tactics against the Bible, the only candidate source for information about this God who you claim to hold so dear, could and does go on and on.

Your position would be reasonable (with certain reservations) except that the non-metaphorical truth of the Bible is being taught to people who cannot discern the errors and something like 30% of Christians do believe in the Flood and all the other silly and petty lies.

[Sternwallow]

Wow guys. Just like my cats. The only evidence that a theist was even here is a little blood on the sidewalk. Even the bones were eaten.
Cats are often very wise.

[Sternwallow]

Thank you for proving my point. You are just as much a fundamentalist, as the people you deride. No one considers me a liberal theologically except ... fundamentalists!
Your position is untenable if God is actually in charge of anything and if the Bible is His revelation to us. One need not be a fundamentalist to see the illogic of a less than fundamentalist position on the Bible.

You call us fundamentalists then you say, effectively, the Bible is a pile of steaming dung, but I love God (based on selected tidbits in that pile) so I will stretch my mind and twist my reason to find some small good things in it. Once I clutch my treasured collection of soiled and cloudy gems, I will go where they are not esteemed and insist that they are wonderful and valuable and desirable. This I will do for the greater glory of God me.

[chrisandrew]

]Just as a matter of effective writing, a few more paragraphs might be helpful.
Yeah , I am working on learning to operate this message system. Sorry about the mess.






Then you do not see "putting your life in God's hands" or relying on Jesus to direct you as abandoning your own responsibility for your behavior?No, its really simple. I just pray "God do your will with me" and, as a situation arises the realization is: Do I trust God and yield to what he wants(turn the other cheek,,do good to them that hate you,judge not, do unto others, etc,etc...) and receive joy and contentment or ignore and be indifferent. Whatever I choose I know I will reap what I have sown. Do I care ,yes , I would scincerely like God to bless me . (he will give thee the desires of thine heart Psalms37:4)Do you not see a distinction between living the truth (as you see it) versus imposing your view of whats true on others?

Yes, I see a distinction, and note that without other views of whats true being imposed ,society would be in a state of lawlessness .
I find atheists commonly more truthful than people who are certain that they can lie and cheat and steal and even kill and yet be completely forgiven as though they never harmed anyone, by the simple asking.



Repentence is required yet nearly imposible to find(I believe).This is why I am here (honesty).I am an independent thinker .These sins you speak of have become unnaturally serious to me.


Do you not believe that God made you the way He wanted you to be when He made you the first time? How did you come by all of that "evil"? Did you desire to do evil or did you desire to do things which are considered by some, to be evil acts? There is a big difference. I am willing to bet that you never awoke in the morning and said to yourself: "I wonder how many evil acts I can do today".

First off ,I didnt care about anybody but me . I chose that path on my own free will I do not blame this on any one but me. I started shoplifting around 7 or 8 yoa toys mostly , breaking in houses by 12 , taking cars and using drugs at 15. I grew up in an area with alot of drug smuggling going on , easy money every where, I thought crime was the way make it quick. (I know better now) Things progressively got worse and worse. Especially when I started playing with drugs.

."This is abrogation of personal responsibly just as much as a citizen of a totalitarian regime who says "I will do anything whatever that my leader commands


Jesus prayed "not my will , but thine be done" (Luke22:42)and the cross was brought to Him. He did not resist but yielded to the tormentors, for the joy of fullfilling the will of God . I to seek to patiently yield to the revealed will of God (new testament)as a faithful servant. What greater meaning could I derive from my existense in this place than willingly serve the creator of it as he enables me to do so.


Do you think that a few hours of pain, three days of sleep and a soft spot in heaven (still living), are somehow equivalent punishment for all the sins of humanity for all time, when compared to an eternity of torment for any tiny unforgiven transgression by a single human?


God himself came to our hate filled world , took on our pitiful shape, allowed himself to be tortured to death all to prove what real love is "his love". I am so thankful because infinity in outer darkness, accompanied by lonliness hearing nothing but weeping and gnashing of teeth, I have had enough of misery in this world . No more please! It is my only hope. God is love(1John4:8), so sin is not putting God (love) first,simple but tuff.




I respectfully disagree. You can take charge of your life and make, for yourself, exactly those changes that you think are being scripted by Jesus.

Without his gift of joy and contentment I would be miserable and possibly give up. The influence of sin also is of no effect as long as I yield my will. Otherwise temptation is subtle and seductive.


Being loved is easy. Just love someone else and soon others will love you back a hundred fold (often when you least expect it [Gnosi]). The thin, sterile and silent love offered by God, the love whose fullest expression is permitting you to spend eternity in servile praise of His glory, is wholly inadequate to be called "love", hardly worth calling "like" (it feels like "hell" to me).

I guess I am looking for something more than hit and miss, unreliable human relationships. Whatever is up next has got to be better than this stinking , hunger filled, confusing mess.





The strength and courage to place your life in thrall to Jesus is exactly the strength and courage that you already had for solving your own problems. You (and almost everyone) are unaware of the power you actually possess to be the author of your own improvement. God does not, in my experience, add any strength, He adds complications to already complex situations.



Your claim sounds like self realization doctrine Gods' way I believe is more simple and the benefits are exhilarating. Strangely, I am up to this challenge and find it fullfilling even exiting. My will power is useless.I have not improved I am a totally different person!


Please understand that people who do not believe in an afterlife still can have morals and lead upstanding lives of love, kindness, generosity, hope and even joy. Thank you ,[/quote]



Beloved, all I could ask is for brutal honesty and for that I am indebted to you. I did not find this doctrine from any source The Almighty showed me. If I am in error do correct .
thank you , chris

[Sternwallow]

The issue isn't whether you find it useful or not. The study of ancient languages, cultures, history, archaeology etc., which is where biblical scholarship is squarely located, doesn't need to be useful to you to be worthy of study and to have preoccupied many talented and gifted scholars. Your ignorance is your shame. Your unwillingness to learn is lamentable and laughable.
Bovina, studies of the past are important and valuable as is all valid learning about ourselves and our societies. I am all for academia and scholarship. I have spent most of my varied career in academia and I value it highly.

Biblical scholarship, however, is not at issue here. The beliefs of people who pull the strings of government are what I find fault with. Central to that problem is the notion by people of faith that they must spread the word of God, get the divine message out, bring the Good News to every hamlet and hovel and, here is the real kicker, make Christianity the law of the land by any means, fair or foul.

You are welcome to believe as you wish and practice your insane rituals in private and I'll protect your right to do so. I have no quarrel with you as long as you keep private things to yourself. (praying in a closet instead of in public is well aligned with this notion) But, Bovina, you insist on invading (I may say infesting) our modest corner of the internet, for which some of us actually pay, and make outrageous claims and call us odious names.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but, of course, your irrational faith prevents you from admitting your true and frankly base motives.

[antix]

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z191/Lily56AL/smilies/sad-1.gif

Antix, Antix, Antix. Have I been with you so long and you still believe this stuff?

*The flood is mythology.

*The bears took care of the "not children" (teenagers) who didn't make a bald joke "Go up" is a euphemism for "up yours" and not a good thing to have said to a prophet ... It is a nasty story, however.

*It is the psalmist who takes pleasure in thinking of dashing the kiddie brains of his enemies against the rocks, not God.

*laws against Sabbath breaking and other such are appropriate to a late iron age tribal culture.

The list could go on and on. Lily, Lily, Lily. Have you not been here so long and you still believe the Bible contains unique truths that reveal some sort of God to us?

* You do realize that I don't actually believe the flood story, right? But some people take that ridiculous story as truth. And even in the myth form, it doesn't take away from the petty pathetic behavior that God is shown to have taken.

* OK, so the "teenagers" were not "children" and they told a (so called) prophet in essence to go fuck himself. (Maybe because he was acting like a self righteous douche bag who thought god was talking to him, and the "teenagers" realized he was full of shit, so called him on it.) Justification for sending bears to brutally kill people? Well... at least you acknowledge that it's a nasty story.

* Yet God allowed such nonsense to enter the pages of the book that he allegedly chose to use to reveal himself to us, even though it (apparently) was not part of his ways.

* laws that involve stoning people to death at any era for performing work on the "wrong" day of the week is not appropriate no matter what context you put it in.

[Sternwallow]

You embrace ignorance. You actually embrace it. Do you suppose that every scholar; not to mention every New or Old Testament B. A. on the planet thinks that my "stupid" religion is true? You are painfully ignorant of the real world. What are you afraid of?

It is incomprehensible to me that a man who claims (I think) to have a college education, could possibly be oblivious to the presence of graduate and undergraduate programs in all areas touching on or dealing with religion!

Let's see: Vanderbilt offers an MA and PH.D in History and Critical Theories of Religion, Stanford offers and MA and PH.D in Religious studies; Harvard offers a Ph.D in religion apart from the degrees offered in its Divinity School; like Harvard, Princeton offers a Ph. D. in Near Eastern Studies and in ... you guessed it, Religious studies. In fact this semester they offered a whole grad level course called:
REL 512
Special Topics in the Study of Religion: The Binding of Isaac in Ancient Judaism and Christianity
Professor(s): Martha Himmelfarb

I could multiply examples but I would be here all day. Within almost all of these programs, including those in Depts of archaeology, history and philosophy, and ancient languages, one can emphasize particular religious or biblical areas of study. And this isn't even the tip of the iceberg.

Fancy that.
Fancy just how irrelevant that scholarship and effort is when questions of the rights of non-Christians are being cast into law. Where is your scholarship to ensure my right to hold public office? What academic study determines on what days I can conduct legal commerce? On what scholarly basis must I pay for chaplains to open government sessions or cater to particular sects in the military? Why was religious support for slavery so wrong for so long? Was it reformed by Biblical scholarship or did persons of good will and empathy turn the tide with much contra-Biblical effort?

I submit that neither ignorance of Biblical scholarship nor ample understanding of it are any use in the face of what people here actually believe and act upon, toward their fellows.

[Irreligious]

No. Actually you can't say the same.
Actually, I can, and I did. In two plus years here, you have not presented one shred of credible evidence for your belief that an alleged man-god is in charge anywhere. Not one. And you NEVER will. Because you can't.

You embrace ignorance. You actually embrace it. Do you suppose that every scholar; not to mention every New or Old Testament B. A. on the planet thinks that my "stupid" religion is true? You are painfully ignorant of the real world. What are you afraid of?
Bullshit.

What expertise do you have in the hundreds of other religions that exist in the world? Are you pursuing any studies in Islam, Hinduism, Budhisim, Santeria or Voodoo? There are plenty of other scholars out there studying and teaching various aspects of those other belief systems. What do you know about any of them? Is your ignorance of them as willful as my ignorance of your very specific brand of Christianity? What's the difference? Please break it down for me, if you have the guts to respond to this post.

I really want to know why you're allowed to be ignorant of all the other religions in the world, yet I'm supposed to kiss your fanny and validate your unfounded belief system. Explain it to me, because I am earnestly curious to see how you justify this?

By the way, I was in a 10-year relationship with a university professor who taught comparative religions and spent two years in Haiti studying Voodoo. You know anything about this belief system that pre-dates Christianity? You wanna learn? What are you afraid of?

It is incomprehensible to me that a man who claims (I think) to have a college education, could possibly be oblivious to the presence of graduate and undergraduate programs in all areas touching on or dealing with religion!
This is a fabrication of your own demented mind, as you've never read any post of mine in which I claimed to be ignorant of the fact that there are scholars who study religions. There are also credentialed scholars out there doing exhaustive work on the philosophy of Star Trek and the sociology of daytime serials. So friggin' what? Are you interested in any of that?

I could multiply examples but I would be here all day. Within almost all of these programs, including those in Depts of archaeology, history and philosophy, and ancient languages, one can emphasize particular religious or biblical areas of study. And this isn't even the tip of the iceberg.

Fancy that.
Honey, we could be here all year listing the endless variety of things (some amazingly banal) that one can study at college or university, your religion being only one of them. What's your point?

[DrunkMonkey]

Sir, thank you! 1. I am certain God wants me share what he has done for me . No need to wonder if there is a God . If you ask him scincerely to do whatever he wants with you something will happen. 2 . I have no doubts about Gods' love either. 3. I heard his voice just like I hear my thoughts but I cant duplicate it . It sounds different than my thoughts. 4. I will pray that God (Jesus) will speak to you.

YOU GOWN GET RAPED!

[DrunkMonkey]

In all seriousness, how does Christianity make any sense?

God takes a separate but equal form on earth as a human that was born when he impregnated an actual human while in yet a different form. This human form gets beaten and killed only to come alive three days later. This is done so that the first (father) form of god can forgive people for their sins. All of this is done without leaving a shred of contemporary evidence, with the earliest writings we have being from someone who only saw Jesus in a hallucination.

Why not skip all the drama and just have god come down to earth?

One doesn't realize how crazy their former beliefs are until they are summarized.

[Irreligious]

Eva ,thank you , great I understand you so much better . How do you decide what is right and wrong ? Since you dont care much about the bible where do you get the code of ethics you live by ?
Good gravy, man, why are you bothering us?

YOU need God, Jesus or whatever it is you worship. And I believe you when you say that. YOU need this belief system because YOU, apparently, are lacking in empathy and impulse control without it. Personally, I'm glad for you that you've found something that keeps you grounded.

But WE ain't YOU.

It never even occurred to me to do any of the heinous things you claim to have done before you found a belief system that clued you in to the error of your ways. If you don't have common sense enough to know that it's wrong to abuse other people, then you've done the right thing by embracing religion. Go with your god and commune with other Christians. Y'all really deserve each other.

[Choobus]

Haven't seen you say that in a while.

we haven't had any christy trolls lately, just morons

[Irreligious]

I was driving down the road and noticed some girl pumping gas at the gas station dressed in very little . After the first minuscule glance I did not look again. Amazed at the reaction ,which for me would be to fully acknowledge any and every woman proclaiming herself as an eger whore by her dress code till eye contact was made and maybe make some further conversation. I did not do the usual. I was dumbfounded so I asked God: "what happened to me ?" The answer came imediatly " you asked me to do my will" . It was like hearing my voice in my thoughts but in a voice that I could not duplicate , I know because I tried to reapeat the message and it just did not sound the same. NO LIE ! I did not ask the voice to identify itself because I was still trying to figure out the answer. At the same time as I heard the voice I was reminded of the prayer I said nearly 2 months prior asking God to : "just do your will".[/LEFT]
You're a scary dude, man. And as I said earlier, you seem to have some serious issues with impulse control. For your information, not every person you meet is similarly programmed.

You also sound to me like a perfect candidate for Islam, if you can't control your libido at the sight of an attractive, scantily clad woman without invoking the power of some alleged invisible force to keep you from yielding to your baser proclivities. That's why those guys over there force women to wear ninja outfits, otherwise known as hijab or, worse, burkas.

Again, I'm glad for you that you found Jesus, but I suspect you could also use the services of a competent mental health professional. I'm deadly serious. And I'm not trying to insult you. It's a very good thing to get help when you need it.

[nkb]

chrisandrew,
Can you elaborate a little on how you found Jesus?

You tell us that you were a bad person, doing drugs, fornicating, not caring about others. How did you turn it around? Did you figure it out yourself? Did someone tell you about the glory of God?

[nkb]

I was driving down the road and noticed some girl pumping gas at the gas station dressed in very little . After the first minuscule glance I did not look again. Amazed at the reaction ,which for me would be to fully acknowledge any and every woman proclaiming herself as an eger whore by her dress code till eye contact was made and maybe make some further conversation. I did not do the usual. I was dumbfounded so I asked God: "what happened to me ?" The answer came imediatly " you asked me to do my will" . It was like hearing my voice in my thoughts but in a voice that I could not duplicate , I know because I tried to reapeat the message and it just did not sound the same. NO LIE ! I did not ask the voice to identify itself because I was still trying to figure out the answer. At the same time as I heard the voice I was reminded of the prayer I said nearly 2 months prior asking God to : "just do your will".
So, if I understood correctly, this voice is only in your head, not audible to others.

So, before then, you had not heard his voice? If you had never heard him speak to you, what possessed you to talk to him?
How did you know it was God's voice (meanign the Christian god, not some other deity)? Did he ever formally introduce himself?

You lost me on the part where you couldn't repeat the same tone. When someone talks to me, in a voice I could never emulate with my vocal cords, I can still replay it in my head. What exactly keeps you from replaying that voice in your head?

[Irreligious]

Your position is untenable if God is actually in charge of anything and if the Bible is His revelation to us. One need not be a fundamentalist to see the illogic of a less than fundamentalist position on the Bible.

You call us fundamentalists then you say, effectively, the Bible is a pile of steaming dung, but I love God (based on selected tidbits in that pile) so I will stretch my mind and twist my reason to find some small good things in it. Once I clutch my treasured collection of soiled and cloudy gems, I will go where they are not esteemed and insist that they are wonderful and valuable and desirable. This I will do for the greater glory of God me.
:bow: :bow: :bow:

Man, I really miss you.

[Philboid Studge]

4. I will pray that God (Jesus) will speak to you.

Finally! Your chance to demonstrate that God (Jesus) exists.

If neither God nor Jesus speaks to me in the next 48 hours, then we shall consider the matter closed. Thank you.


(I don't see what's so bad about fornicating and doing drugs.)

[nkb]

Having sex, making love, fucking, etc is cool, fornicating is baaaad.

[Irreligious]

Finally! Your chance to demonstrate that God (Jesus) exists.

If neither God nor Jesus speaks to me in the next 48 hours, then we shall consider the matter closed. Thank you.
If only it were that easy, Phil. He knows damn well that none of us is going to hear the alleged voice of God, since he, himself, has never heard it and wouldn't know God's voice from any random stranger's. Under the right circumstances, he'd probably mistake a chirping cricket as his god bearing good news mainly aimed at raising his own self esteem. People who are secure in what they believe do not go around badgering other folks for validation.

I strongly suspect that people, like Chris (if he's not just trolling here for a good time), desperately need our validation to sustain belief in their unfounded superstitions, which is why they don't give up easily. Some, like Lily, are eternally committed to drawing us into her web of madness so she can feel sane as she goes about believing in demons to blame for her fears and super entities to make her feel special and immortal.


(I don't see what's so bad about fornicating and doing drugs.)
It definitely ain't for everybody, Phil. Especially those lacking any sense of (or ability to exercise) moderation. We all have different levels of tolerance and our own unique chemical makeup. I actually know of a couple of folks who can smoke crack cocaine recreationally, just like there exists folks who are moderate drinkers and those who need but one drink to head down the path of raging alcoholism. There ain't no magic panceas out there, because we're not a one-size-fits-all kinda species.

[Sternwallow]

Chris, do you do anal?
Not until post #68! Remarkable restraint, Master Choobus! :D

[Sternwallow]

Sir, thank you! 1. I am certain God wants me share what he has done for me . No need to wonder if there is a God . If you ask him scincerely to do whatever he wants with you something will happen. 2 . I have no doubts about Gods' love either. 3. I heard his voice just like I hear my thoughts but I cant duplicate it . It sounds different than my thoughts. 4. I will pray that God (Jesus) will speak to you.
1. Why do you suppose that, having spoken to you, God is somehow unable to speak to me and everyone you will be talking to? There are so many conflicting voices both inside and outside the human head claiming to be god or making the hearer think they are from god, that it is very much, indeed needful to wonder if there is a god and exactly which one it is at every perceived communication. If you get too comfortable that the voice in your head is god, then Satan can whisper his lies in your ear and lead you to Hell unless you demand identification every time.

2. Has God manifested His love to you in any way other than making a warm snuggy feeling deep inside of you? Is anything that God has done for or to you visible to anyone else? Changes in behavior do not count since we can all modify our own behavior to some degree in a process known as personal responsibility.

3. Sometimes a voice inside of your head is just a voice inside of your head. Sorry.

4. How would you suggest that I arrange to hear God's voice? Your proposed method of asking Him to take over my whole life has failed miserably and repeatedly. Can it be that I am guilty of an inadequate amount of sinning and so am not evil enough to be worthy of forgiveness? If so, that oversight of mine is easily remedied.

[Irreligious]

4. How would you suggest that I arrange to hear God's voice? Your proposed method of asking Him to take over my whole life has failed miserably and repeatedly. Can it be that I am guilty of an inadequate amount of sinning and so am not evil enough to be worthy of forgiveness? If so, that oversight of mine is easily remedied.
Oh, but, Sterny, I have met you and you are not nearly unthinking and self-centered enough to accomplish this feat. You would need copious amounts of self-pity and the ability to rationalize that if you are suffering, then those around you must be similarly miserable. That is so not who you are. Only those with an inherent, or just plain willful, inability to take responsibility for their own faults, unhappiness and fears need that kind of paradoxically external yet, ultimately, internal validation of their existence. I am happy to say that you are a man of far more integrity than that. :D

[Philboid Studge]

Can it be that I am guilty of an inadequate amount of sinning and so am not evil enough to be worthy of forgiveness? If so, that oversight of mine is easily remedied.


Well there you go. Our new Christofied friend will have performed a spectacular service for the Lord if his presence in our forums gets us to sin even more. At first I thought this might jeopardize Andy's own salvation, since he would be the catalyst for more and greater sins. However, however upon further review, I see that this evil action on his part would only highlight the awesome mitigating powers of Christ. As we increase the frequency and severity of our sins, we are in effect helping the cause of Christianity by revealing its bottomless redemptive function.

Thank you, Andy! Now, to start fornicating.

[Sternwallow]

No, its really simple. I just pray "God do your will with me" and, as a situation arises the realization is: Do I trust God and yield to what he wants(turn the other cheek,,do good to them that hate you,judge not, do unto others, etc,etc...) and receive joy and contentment or ignore and be indifferent. Whatever I choose I know I will reap what I have sown. Do I care ,yes , I would scincerely[sic] like God to bless me . (he will give thee the desires of thine heart Psalms37:4)What is this unerring sense that tells you what God wants? Has a priest blessed your Magic 8-ball (tm)? Seriously, when you think that God wants you to do some particular thing, how can you be sure it isn't just your own better nature giving you good advice?

Yes, I see a distinction, and note that without other views of whats[sic] true being imposed ,society would be in a state of lawlessness .
The problem here is that what you might impose could easily not be true. Many societies agree to impose rules for their behavior that benefit the community and hence the individual, without any need for God-given truths that cannot be validated. So, no, society would not turn to lawlessness.

Repentence[sic] is required yet nearly imposible[sic] to find(I believe).This is why I am here (honesty).I am an independent thinker .These sins you speak of have become unnaturally serious to me.

So you agree that a valid lifestyle can include arbitrarily evil behaviors if the individual, at some point, approaches Jesus with sincere repentance, contrition and utter faith and will be forgiven as though the acts never happened. This is not being responsible and it is not justice in any sense. It is not divine mercy, it is license to do evil while carrying a "get out of Hell" card in your pocket.

Do you not believe that God made you the way He wanted you to be when He made you the first time? How did you come by all of that "evil"? Did you desire to do evil or did you desire to do things which are considered by some, to be evil acts? There is a big difference. I am willing to bet that you never awoke in the morning and said to yourself: "I wonder how many evil acts I can do today".
First off ,I didnt care about anybody but me . I chose that path on my own free will I do not blame this on any one but me. I started shoplifting around 7 or 8 yoa toys mostly , breaking in houses by 12 , taking cars and using drugs at 15. I grew up in an area with alot[sic] of drug smuggling going on , easy money every where, I thought crime was the way make it quick. (I know better now) Things progressively got worse and worse. Especially when I started playing with drugs.
You didn't answer the question. Did God mismanage your design in the first place? Obviously He knew you would get into drugs. Obviously He could have made you without a temptation for drugs. Obviously He could have arranged that drug opportunities did not occur near you. Why, then do you have the gall to criticize God's design and ask Him to change His mind about how you are made?

This is abrogation of personal responsibly just as much as a citizen of a totalitarian regime who says "I will do anything whatever that my leader commands
Jesus prayed "not my will , but thine be done" (Luke22:42)and the cross was brought to Him. He did not resist but yielded to the tormentors, for the joy of fullfilling[sic] the will of God . I to seek to patiently yield to the revealed will of God (new testament)as a faithful servant. What greater meaning could I derive from my existense[sic] in this place than willingly serve the creator of it as he enables me to do so.
Jesus did not bow with grace to the will of God, he did exactly as He wished to do. Whoever reported on Jesus' prayer (and it wasn't Jesus nor any disciple), was wrong. It should have been "Luke' 22:42 Saying, Me, if I be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but mine, be done." (corrections underlined). He was praying to himself!

Being a slave, no matter how great the master is, brings no honor or meaning or value to one's life. While, the better a slave is, as a person, the worse for the reputation of the master who would enslave such a noble person.


Do you think that a few hours of pain, three days of sleep and a soft spot in heaven (still living), are somehow equivalent punishment for all the sins of humanity for all time, when compared to an eternity of torment for any tiny unforgiven transgression by a single human?
God himself came to our hate filled world , took on our pitiful shape, allowed himself to be tortured to death all to prove what real love is "his love". I am so thankful because infinity in outer darkness, accompanied by lonliness[sic] hearing nothing but weeping and gnashing of teeth, I have had enough of misery in this world . No more please! It is my only hope. God is love(1John4:8), so sin is not putting God (love) first,simple but tuff[sic].
The torture of Jesus lasted only a few hours, or, in God time, less than a tenth of a jiffy. He did not die, but was incommunicado for a few days (incidentally God can't count. Friday late afternoon to near dawn on Sunday is far from "three days and three nights"). Ask any Christian if Jesus is dead; they'll say "Nay, for He is risen!"

That outer darkness you mention is not just separation from the glorious light of God's countenance, it is filled with fire and pain and torment lasting for eternity and was invented by Jesus, in his loving mercy.

I respectfully disagree. You can take charge of your life and make, for yourself, exactly those changes that you think are being scripted by Jesus.
Without his gift of joy and contentment I would be miserable and possibly give up. The influence of sin also is of no effect as long as I yield my will. Otherwise temptation is subtle and seductive.
Temptation, like that in the Garden, is authored by God and is directed by him at individuals whose ability to resist is known exactly by Him who designed them. God knows whether you will succumb to His temptations or not so anything that you do is locked in His preformed plan. You need not struggle either way. Behave as you wish and accept God's design constraints. If you would behave well, do it for human reasons. Living life being good to others is much nicer and happier and less selfish than doing good to avoid hell or to seek heaven.

Being loved is easy. Just love someone else and soon others will love you back a hundred fold (often when you least expect it [Gnosi]). The thin, sterile and silent love offered by God, the love whose fullest expression is permitting you to spend eternity in servile praise of His glory, is wholly inadequate to be called "love", hardly worth calling "like" (it feels like "hell" to me).
I guess I am looking for something more than hit and miss, unreliable human relationships. Whatever is up next has got to be better than this stinking , hunger filled, confusing mess.
If you would avoid hit or miss relationships, I recommend that you avoid God who treated Job so abominably for a gambling lark, who stacked the deck against Adam then punished him and us all for falling for it.

The alleged God is not a good person, not a good role model and is certainly no hero.

The strength and courage to place your life in thrall to Jesus is exactly the strength and courage that you already had for solving your own problems. You (and almost everyone) are unaware of the power you actually possess to be the author of your own improvement. God does not, in my experience, add any strength, He adds complications to already complex situations.
Your claim sounds like self realization doctrine[.] Gods' way I believe is more simple and the benefits are exhilarating. Strangely, I am up to this challenge and find it fullfilling[sic] even exiting[are you leaving for some reason?]. My will power is useless.I have not improved I am a totally different person!
Yes, I suggest self realization, self esteem, honesty, self respect, personal responsibility, integrity. It is no more easy than any other worthwhile effort, but, if you know that it is good