Pull up a Chair

[faboofour]

ubs (http://ravingatheists.com/forum/member.php?u=2620) said:


"Welcome faboofour. We have an intro section (http://ravingatheists.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31). Pull up a chair and tell us about yourself."

So, intro section, eh? Okay, I'm not an atheist, per se. I'm a Taoist, which means, to me, that because my brain chooses to perceive patterns in random stimuli, I feel comfortable in assigning meanings to them. Rationally, I know very well that my "belief" is a secondary manifestation of some evolutionary advantage, but it doesn't matter much to me what it is. It just feels good to me. I certainly don't expect, and wouldn't want, anyone else to succumb to this peculiar human characteristic the same way that I do. I don't really care what the belief systems of others are, as long as they don't insult me or others or insist that I or others succumb to their particular peculiarities.

Otherwise, I'm cool with it.

Howzat?

[ghoulslime]

Welcome, Faboofour.

Please bear in mind that atheism is not a belief system. It has no recommendations as to how one should view the world and the bizarre existence we find ourselves in. Most atheists have no agenda to force anybody into becoming raging, grumpy, haters of theists. Most of us do not lie awake at night grumbling about our cold, miserable, pointless lives, trying to fit the diverse facets of our being into cold mathematics and black and white philosophical arrangements.

We are humans too. We have the same senses that you do. We view the world and the universe with the same wonder and awe that you do. We feel the pulse of life around us. We paint pictures of it. We make songs about it. We write poetry about it. We appreciate the mystery and the beauty too. We are alive too.

Atheism is a byproduct of the application of critical thinking. If the rejection of gods, a position of non-belief is the final destination for an atheist, it is a sad commentary on the individual in question. We make our own purpose in life. We define our own destiny.

It is a rare occurrence for any non-theist on this site to attempt to convert you to anything in particular. Most of us only expect you to exercise rational thought. Do so, and we will get along just fine.

[Eva]

welcome to our humble forum, faboo!

[PanAtheist]

Hi FF!

Rationally, I know very well that my "belief" is a secondary manifestation of some evolutionary advantage

"Evolutionary disadvantages" happen an awful lot.
Your "belief" may be a disadvantage (to you, to your genes), and may be also be a manifestation of a more fundamental disadvantage (to yourself, to your genes).
Life is not "perfect".
And the arisings of bionovelties (many of which are unhelpful), and "natural selection" are, as it were, works in progress.

One future scenario for humanity is that religion dies out completely, with humanity finding itself much better without it thank you very much.

(I have an anti-religious bent!)

I say that bad things are the manifestation of something vital. That something vital is randomness, which is a wellspring of both the "good" and the "bad". I think that "good" things are just beneficial outcomes of chance, and "bad" things are just harmful outcomes of chance.

I don't accept a "Way".

FF, feel free to enlighten us on whatever Tao and Taoism is to you.
If I were you, I would treat its ideas skeptically, ie, enjoy their stimulation without subscribing to "belief".

Welcome to the Raving Atheists forum.
I hope that you enjoy bathing with piranhas. :D



(By the way, do you speak Chinese?)

[skribb]

ubs (http://ravingatheists.com/forum/member.php?u=2620) said:


"Welcome faboofour. We have an intro section (http://ravingatheists.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31). Pull up a chair and tell us about yourself."

So, intro section, eh? Okay, I'm not an atheist, per se. I'm a Taoist, which means, to me, that because my brain chooses to perceive patterns in random stimuli, I feel comfortable in assigning meanings to them. Rationally, I know very well that my "belief" is a secondary manifestation of some evolutionary advantage, but it doesn't matter much to me what it is. It just feels good to me. I certainly don't expect, and wouldn't want, anyone else to succumb to this peculiar human characteristic the same way that I do. I don't really care what the belief systems of others are, as long as they don't insult me or others or insist that I or others succumb to their particular peculiarities.

Otherwise, I'm cool with it.

Howzat?
Sounds peculiar.

[ubs]

welcome to our humble forum, faboo!

It always makes me laugh when you say that.

Faboofour! You came back and you're a Taoist. I think that's a first for us. Welcome.

[psychodiva]

hi there :wave:

[PanAtheist]

I certainly don't expect, and wouldn't want, anyone else to succumb to this peculiar human characteristic [Taoism] the same way that I do.

Well!

As you don't extol the benefits of Taoism, or even want it for anyone else (!!)
I shall think its :

(a) rubbish, or
(b) you want all its goodness for yourself ... (which gives us rubbish again, doesn't it!!) :D

[faboofour]

Welcome, Faboofour.

Please bear in mind that atheism is not a belief system.


My apologies for not making it more clear. I didn't mean to imply that the dicipline or whatever-you-want-to-call-it of atheism was anything more than a set of rational conclusions based on observable and repeatable evidence.

What I meant to share was that I have a spiritual belief system that I'm am well aware cannot be "verified" by either observable evidence or logical thought. I simply find pleasure in it. Kinda like I find pleasure in reading old Fiction House comic books or watching baseball. Yes, I've rationally analyzed why my belief give me pleasure--as I said, like all humans, I seek to reconcile cause and effect--but, like love, intellectualizing my emotions while I'm feeling them tends to lessen my enjoyment in the moment. Sometimes I like letting my emotions rule--as long as they don't become dominant, don't 'cha know. My approach to spirituality is "Pay no attention to the man [that is, the chemical and electrical responses in the brain to external and internal stimuli] behind the curtain."

Oh, and Taoism, at least as I perceive and practice it, is not a theistic "religion". I do, therefore, believe it possible to be a Taoist and an atheist simutaneously.

Hope that helps! :)

[Professor Chaos]

Welcome, faboofour.

Rationally, I know very well that my "belief" is a secondary manifestation of some evolutionary advantage, but it doesn't matter much to me what it is. It just feels good to me.

To each his own. I often suspect that many religidiots (sorry) are that way, though maybe not consciously.

How do you practice your religion? Tell us more about Taoism, and how you came to associate yourself with it. I know little about Taoism, and I'm probably not alone here.

[faboofour]

Well!

As you don't extol the benefits of Taoism, or even want it for anyone else (!!)
I shall think its :

(a) rubbish, or
(b) you want all its goodness for yourself ... (which gives us rubbish again, doesn't it!!) :D

From The Tao Is Silent by Rayomnd M. Smullyan:

In the trial scene in Alice's Adventures In Wonderland, the White Rabbit read an obscure verse which was apparently quite irrelevant to the canse. The king triumphantly exclaimed, "That's the most important piece of evidence we've heard yet". Alice flatly contradicted him and said, "I don't belive there's an atom of meaning it it". The King then said, "If there's no meaning it it, that saves a world of trouble, you know, as we needn't try to find any."

I might make a similar comment about the Taoists. Since the Taoists make no claim that the Tao exists, it saves them a world of trouble in trying to prove that the Tao exists. This is really Chinese common sense at its highest!

Just compare the situation with the history of Western religions thought! Good heavens, the amount of debates, battles, bloodshed and torture over the question of whether God does or does not exist! It has seemed to be ever more than an life and death issue. At all costs, the Christian must convince the heather and the atheist that God exists, in order to save his soul. At all costs, the atheist must convince the Christian that the belief on God is but a childish and primitive superstition, doing enormous harm to the cause of true social progress. And so they battle and storm and bang away at each other. Meanwhile, the Taoist Sage sit quietly by the stream, perhaps with a book of poems, a cup of wine, and some painting materials, enjoying the Tao to his hearts content, without ever worrying whether or not the Tao exists. The Sage has no need to affirm the Tao; he is far too busy enjoying it.

[sparhawk13]

The Sage has no need to affirm the Tao; he is far too busy enjoying it.

Hmmm. Good for you. I think we'll get along fine.

[PanAtheist]

Since the Taoists make no claim that the Tao exists, it saves them a world of trouble in trying to prove that the Tao exists. This is really Chinese common sense at its highest!

:thumbsup: That sounds good!

At all costs, the atheist must convince the Christian that the belief on God is but a childish and primitive superstition, doing enormous harm to the cause of true social progress.
:bop: No. Not true! Well, not unless the atheist is about to be auto-da-fé'd.

Taoist Sage sit quietly by the stream ... enjoying the Tao to his hearts content, without ever worrying whether or not the Tao exists. The Sage has no need to affirm the Tao; he is far too busy enjoying it.
:rolleyes: Doubletalk!
The special bullshit of religions, and a favourite of the eastern.
The sensible "Sage" might enjoy the possibilities concerning ideas of a "Tao", but he can't actually "enjoy the Tao" without it existing.

Doubletalk - I've no patience for that!
It's not, actually, clever.
It's supercilious bullshit.

[faboofour]

Welcome, faboofour.



To each his own. I often suspect that many religidiots (sorry) are that way, though maybe not consciously.

How do you practice your religion? Tell us more about Taoism, and how you came to associate yourself with it. I know little about Taoism, and I'm probably not alone here.


The idea of "practicing" a "religion" is an absurdity to a Taoist. One doesn't need to "practice" Taoism in the same way a musician needs to practice his instrument, since the Tao simply "is". One cannot make oneself a "better" Taoist by practice.

I cannot "tell" you about Taoism, since words define and the Tao is indefinable, but let me try this (and keep in mind that out of a hunderd Taoists, all but me would possibly disagree with me): When you define good, you define its opposite--bad. When you define beauty, you define ugly. Et cetera. The Way is. One can't even say "the Way is all," since by doing so, you've defined "not-all," and the Way is jsut as much "not-all" as it is "all."

I guess that doesn't help much, does it?

I fell into Taoism likely when most people "get religion," during a time when I needed solace that I believed I couldn't find from the physical world. I was raised Catholic, so I got my psyche punched for a lifetime ride on the Magical Mystery Bus at a very early age. I was and am, as most of you here probably are, a rational human being (or at least thinks I am :eh:)who's got no time for the "religious bullshit" baggage that every other spiritual discipine demands you swallow. A spiritual system that doesn't even ask that you believe in it appealed to me.

You might gain insight on Taoism by reading Lao Tsu's Tao Te Ching, online here at http://elyxr.com/tao/index.cfm. For a Western viewpoint, Raymond M. Smullyan's The Tao Is Silent is fun. Benjamin Hoff's The Tao of Pooh is okay but a bit opinionated and downright goofy when he goes into early Taoist creation myths, but avoid at all costs his followup, The Te of Piglet, wherein Hoff writes as if he swallowed a nasty pill.

[faboofour]

:thumbsup: That sounds good!


:rolleyes: Doubletalk!
The special bullshit of religions, and a favourite of the eastern.
The sensible "Sage" might enjoy the possibilities concerning ideas of a "Tao", but he can't actually "enjoy the Tao" without it existing.

Doubletalk - I've no patience for that!
It's not, actually, clever.
It's supercilious bullshit.

I thinkj you miss the point: If by "Doubletalk", you mean that the that statement "existance exists" is doubletalk, well yes, that exactly the point! Mr Smullyan is simply noting the absurdity of affirming that existance exists. And even if there was a semantic or intellectual payoff to such a redundent exercise, what would be the benefit?

Bottom line: it doesn't matter what you believe pro or con spirituality, so in regards such matters, just relax and float downstream.

[faboofour]

Again, my apologies: the online Tao for which I left a link is a truly crappy translation (I can barely make heads or tails of it myself, and I've read a lot of different translations). Try this one: http://www.taoteching.org/. Not perfect, but better.

[psychodiva]

and there was me just getting into it :)

thanks- I'll try again

[ubs]

After looking over your link, I was trying to figure out what the difference was between Zen and Taoism, and found this from a from a Buddhist site (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Buddhists-948/Zen-Tao.htm)

There is a thread that some Taoists follow to be ‘all natural' and anything synthetic or man made is wrong. Some of these folks feel that passing gas, belching and all other ‘natural' forms of being human should never be controlled but expressed fully. It's an odd interpretation to me. One teacher actually said to me “We Taoists piss in the yard”.

So, faboofour?

[faboofour]

As I read the second one, it's not that much better in sharing the "flavor". The words are right, sorta, but the meaning is a bit jumbled for a Western mind used to Western meanings of words. I can see where one would find distasteful the idea that "The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies, by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones." The idea that's trying to be gotten across here is a "wining over hearts and minds" strategy is a waste of time and if you must "rule" (of which Lao Tsu speaks much in later chapters), offer service rather than ideology.

[faboofour]

After looking over your link, I was trying to figure out what the difference was between Zen and Taoism, and found this from a from a Buddhist site (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Buddhists-948/Zen-Tao.htm)

There is a thread that some Taoists follow to be ‘all natural' and anything synthetic or man made is wrong. Some of these folks feel that passing gas, belching and all other ‘natural' forms of being human should never be controlled but expressed fully. It's an odd interpretation to me. One teacher actually said to me “We Taoists piss in the yard”.

So, faboofour?

"Rightness" and "wrongness" are individual choices. The Tao doesn't label. Dogs sleep when they're tired, not when they "should." Express or suppress what one wants.

If something manifests, it cannot be "synthetic." The idea is just silly to me.

Some Taoists piss in the yard. I suppose that's true, but it sounds like a Fox News sound bite to me. All Taoists don't piss in the yard, 'cuz I don't. Well, not unless I've had too much Guinness and the restrooms are all occupied, in which can, hey, maybe he's right.

A Taoist can certainly claim to speak for all Taoists, but, since I'm a Taoist who often (but not always) suppresses a belch in public places, and thinks that a "natural" versus "man-made" dichotomy is absurd (what is man but a manifestation of nature?), I'd say his claim is false. He may disagree. You can agree with him or me or decide we're both crockfuls. Your choice.

[ubs]

OK, but if you peeing manifests itself then you gotta clean up the non mess/mess.

[Kate]

OK, but if you peeing manifests itself then you gotta clean up the non mess/mess.

...before my dog rolls in it.

[faboofour]

After looking over your link, I was trying to figure out what the difference was between Zen and Taoism, and found this from a from a Buddhist site (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Buddhists-948/Zen-Tao.htm)

So, faboofour?

Oh, and as far as the difference is betwen Zen and Taoism: The former is the latter with guilt added--maybe to add spice like sex toys or something. ;)

[ubs]

--maybe to add spice like sex toys or something. ;)

OK wait wait. Which one has toys?

[Kate]

Zen.
http://ak.buy.com/db_assets/prod_lrg_images/413/202313413.jpg

[faboofour]

OK, but if you peeing manifests itself then you gotta clean up the non mess/mess.

Goes with without saying not-saying.

I think, btw, that Taoism is the only spiritual (for want of a better word) discipline that makes quantum physics actually easier to understand. Once you've wrapped your mind around the concept of doing not-doing, accepting that the act of observation can "change" a particle to a wave is a piece of cake.

[faboofour]

OK wait wait. Which one has toys?


Wouldn't know. At my age, sex is more about that doing not-doing thing anyway....

[psychodiva]

Goes with without saying not-saying.

I think, btw, that Taoism is the only spiritual (for want of a better word) discipline that makes quantum physics actually easier to understand. Once you've wrapped your mind around the concept of doing not-doing, accepting that the act of observation can "change" a particle to a wave is a piece of cake.

accepted and understood that years ago without the aid of Tao- but I can see whare you are coming from - and having been a therapist and psych for years holding different 'ideas' in my head is no biggie0 again without reference to anything 'spiritual' for want of a better word - basically what i am saying is you don't need it to understand the world but it's ok if you do :)

[faboofour]

accepted and understood that years ago without the aid of Tao- but I can see whare you are coming from - and having been a therapist and psych for years holding different 'ideas' in my head is no biggie0 again without reference to anything 'spiritual' for want of a better word - basically what i am saying is you don't need it to understand the world but it's ok if you do :)

I didn't mean to imply you needed anything to understand anything. All I said was that it seems to me that if one is inclined to spirituality, Taoism is possibly a "better" choice of spiritual disciplines than another to prepare oneself for the revelations of quantum mechanics.

I understand it's a hard for some to grasp the idea of a spiritual discipline that holds that its tenets have no more or less impact to one's understanding of the world than, say, the ideas expressed in the average episode of Seinfeld, but there it is.