Brain washed kids

[Mkx240]

Dont you think kids get brain wahsed into belivening a god? Think about it, if you where 7 years old and your parents told you there is a god and kept repeating that over everytime you went to church, wouldnt that child beliven god? I dont think religion is good becuase it does not let the youth make up there own ideas about life ect. In most religions they only want you to beliven what they tell. They are not open to other ideas our opinions. I think most kids might be to scared to explore other answers, our they are just brain wahsed into religion and following all that crap.

[Illuminati]

I think you are absolutely correct.

[Paradox]

yeah, mother is currently raising my two sisters to be christian. i dont necessarily want them to be raised atheists either. they should just get to make up your own choice.

[DasTicken]

I think it goes a bit further than just the parents. Kids get a hefty dose of it via the media and even school (even with out school prayer). Even thier allowance will have "In God we Trust" printed on it-- well if they get an allowance.

[Me]

Dont you think kids get brain wahsed into belivening a god? Think about it, if you where 7 years old and your parents told you there is a god and kept repeating that over everytime you went to church, wouldnt that child beliven god? I dont think religion is good becuase it does not let the youth make up there own ideas about life ect. In most religions they only want you to beliven what they tell. They are not open to other ideas our opinions. I think most kids might be to scared to explore other answers, our they are just brain wahsed into religion and following all that crap.

Someone here claimed that you all came from Christian families, so let me ask you: were you brainwashed into believing in a god? According to several responses and the very nature of this webpage, I'd say no.

When I was 7-years-old, we went to church, yes, but I was much too young to even understand half of what boring old guy they called Pastor was talking about. I mean, the crayolas my parents gave me to keep me out of trouble was what I went to church for.

And as soon as I turned 18, I still had THAT image pasted in my mind: church was boring; I want to color my world and make sure I cause trouble when my parents aren't looking.

All those years and not a single thing stuck because as a child I, like most children, was far more interested in a Barbie or Transformers coloring book than some pastor who had the tendency to make babies cry and put children to sleep.


However, if a child grows up in any form of religious home and chooses to believe that religion for any matter, I support his right. I know from fact he wasn't brainwashed, and I know from fact that "brainwash" is easily remedied with a shiny crayon and a new sort of coloring book.

[ocmpoma]

Since we're providing anecdotal evidence....

Once, while driving near Salinas, California, I pointed out to my son a field on the side of the road. The plants growing there (artichokes, most likely) were covered in plastic. The sun was setting, and the plastic was reflecting the light in a dazling display.
"Look," I said to my son, "an aluminum foil farm!"
"Wow!" he said, eyes wide.
I turned to my wife, and said with a wry grin: "Look, honey, that's how theists are made!"

[Me]

Since we're providing anecdotal evidence....

Once, while driving near Salinas, California, I pointed out to my son a field on the side of the road. The plants growing there (artichokes, most likely) were covered in plastic. The sun was setting, and the plastic was reflecting the light in a dazling display.
"Look," I said to my son, "an aluminum foil farm!"
"Wow!" he said, eyes wide.
I turned to my wife, and said with a wry grin: "Look, honey, that's how theists are made!"

And Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy is how atheists are made. ;)

[ocmpoma]

I agree with you there. Nothing like mythology and outright lies to cause someone to investigate their belief system.

[Me]

I agree with you there. Nothing like mythology and outright lies to cause someone to investigate their belief system.

Exactly.

So, mythology and outright lies makes an atheist a theist (by your logic), and vice versa (by mine).

So therefore, all views are created the same way and aren't brainwash.

[chris26]

Brainwashed? Your parents strap you into an electric chair if you don't go to church? They bring you up with the Christian belief because their belief is important to them and they want to pass it on to their offspring.

You seeing Christianity as a bunch brainwashed people is ignorant. Nobody shoved Christianity down my throat. In the end we either believe or we don't. Not everyone who is raised a Christian really believes it. Nobody can make you believe. You believe for yourself. In the end we determine our fate, no one else.

You can tell me I glow purple in the dark and I can go along with it but that doesn't make me believe it. There are people out there who go to church who are atheist. I know a guy who is atheist and goes to church regularly. Does this make him believe in god. No, he's atheist.

[Illuminati]

I know and have met a lot of people who are atheist, but refuse to tell their parents, since they would be disowned for choosing not to believe. I was sent to religious camps, where I came very close to accepting Christ (thankfully I didn't). In the end, my parents didn't brainwash me, but there are a lot of influences that lead people to become religious, obviously varying depending on the household.

[ocmpoma]

I agree, Me - the mythology and outright lies told by atheists to other atheists will force them to change to theism.... oh, wait - no mythology or lies.

[Paradox]

I agree with you there. Nothing like mythology and outright lies to cause someone to investigate their belief system.

Exactly.

exactly what?

So, mythology and outright lies makes an atheist a theist (by your logic), and vice versa (by mine).

please, tell me of this atheist mythology you speak of.

So therefore, all views are created the same way and aren't brainwash.

some views ar created on fact, others on fiction. how is this the same?

ar you just here to pick fights and nitpick at anything any atheist says, without really considering what there saying?

Brainwashed?

yes, brainwashed

Your parents strap you into an electric chair if you don't go to church?

different parents take different varying degrees of how much pressure they put on someone, depending on how religious they are. many parents do actually do take it to extreme lengths to making there kids go to church, irrelevant of whether they believe or not. is it wrong to think that parents shouldnt force, pressure or manipulate there kids into there religion?

They bring you up with the Christian belief because their belief is important to them and they want to pass it on to their offspring.

just like white supremists often teach there kids

You seeing Christianity as a bunch brainwashed people is ignorant.

your twisting what was said into invalid generalizions. no doubt, there are christians that werent brainwashed into there religion, but that doesnt change the fact that many people have been manipulated into there beliefs.

Nobody shoved Christianity down my throat.

so obviosly, there are absolutely no christians on the face of this planet that werent pushed into that reliigon, since you werent.

In the end we either believe or we don't.

oversimplification at its best

Not everyone who is raised a Christian really believes it.

which is something we already know, and is completely irrelavent

Nobody can make you believe. You believe for yourself.

people can, and have. what do you think the crusades were about?

In the end we determine our fate, no one else.

since all influence is either genetic or external experience, the only person that doesnt decide your fate is you.

You can tell me I glow purple in the dark and I can go along with it but that doesn't make me believe it. There are people out there who go to church who are atheist. I know a guy who is atheist and goes to church regularly. Does this make him believe in god. No, he's atheist.

and why do you think he goes to church? could it be that he feels pressured to.

[Me]

:rolleyes:I agree, Me - the mythology and outright lies told by atheists to other atheists will force them to change to theism.... oh, wait - no mythology or lies.

What you don't seem to understand is that people will be who they are meant to be, be that Christian or be that atheist.

I know of a person who became atheist because the bible didn't support the idea of aliens.

I know of a person who became atheist because the bible didn't support the idea of man being able to produce babies (I think hollywood gave him that idea).

I know of a person who became Christian in the attempt to disprove the bible, but was never able to.

I know of a person who became Christian because he realized that all the prophecies were coming true.



I think just about everybody realizes that lies, mythology, and common belief will factor into what you believe. You just believe whatever the hell you want for whatever reason, stupid or not.

And to claim that atheists are smarter than theists is to practically deny the fact that religion has nothing to do with your mindset... unless, that is, you believe that aliens are all -powerful beings.

[Me]

exactly what?

Don't tell me that even you aren't smart enough to put two and two together.

Exactly: lies and mythology create a religion... even nonreligions.

please, tell me of this atheist mythology you speak of.

What atheist mythology? Other than the tooth fairy and santa clause, there is no atheist mythology. But the fact that you thought I was saying there was is laughable and good reason why I should ignore the rest of your post...

But I won't. You're too much fun. :cool:

Tell me: Christ is mythology and since you studied Christ you became atheist. So then, mythology and outright lies dictated your non religious views.

You became an atheist because of mythology.

Badda bing, badda boom.

some views ar created on fact, others on fiction. how is this the same?

What fiction? Unless you lived a million or thousands of years ago, you cannot possibly say what is fact and what is fiction.

Furthermore, there is no religion based off fiction. As an atheist, you should know this. Unless, of course, you're the kind that's absolutely intolerant towards anybody who believes differently than you - which is believable.

ar you just here to pick fights and nitpick at anything any atheist says, without really considering what there saying?

Hmm... I should laugh, but mostly, I'll just say I laughed. Mostly because of the hypocrisy of this post.

Why?

a. Because all you do is nitpick other beliefs: it's the essence of your religion.

b. You have been known to go to other websites just for the sake of picking fights.

c. How is saying all religions are equal and should be treated as such picking a fight, unless you're intolerant?

d. That's a sign of intolerance to varying beliefs right there.

e. I've already considered what you said. So solly cholly, dun work for me.

[MrCynic38]

I was taken to church all the time in my youth. I wouldn't really say that I was brainwashed, but that might just be beacuse I'm an atheist now. I know plenty of people that would be atheists if their parents would let up on the constant pounding of god into their heads.

[Me]

I was taken to church all the time in my youth. I wouldn't really say that I was brainwashed, but that might just be beacuse I'm an atheist now. I know plenty of people that would be atheists if their parents would let up on the constant pounding of god into their heads.

I also know of several atheists who would be theist's if their parents didn't disown/kick out their siblings that did.

[MrCynic38]

Im not defending that either. They're both bad. But the bible had several passages encouraging christians to kill non-believers.

[Me]

Im not defending that either. They're both bad. But the bible had several passages encouraging christians to kill non-believers.

There are also several passages that discourage murder and encourage love and tolerance.


But I think what you're trying to say is that it's really up to the individual to interpret what they wish, right?

[MrCynic38]

Pretty much. I take my morals from my own mind. Thats why I think Its odd to take morals from the bible. Many of them are contradictory. Have you ever heard George Carlin talk about the Ten Commandments?

[Me]

Pretty much. I take my morals from my own mind. Thats why I think Its odd to take morals from the bible. Many of them are contradictory. Have you ever heard George Carlin talk about the Ten Commandments?

Contradictory? How is thou shalt not murder contradictory to thou shalt not steal, exactly?

No, I haven't heard George Carlin talk about them... I'm almost afraid to, lol.



And some people who believe in God take the morals from their own mind too. Religion doesn't neccessarily make the Religious person's morals. I know of religious people who became religious because their morals coincided with the religion.

Like me, for example.

And I respect the fact that you get your morals from your own mind, but is it really so wrong to get morals from a different place too? Is it BRAINWASH if you learn that something you once thought was okay is now bad?

That's like murder.

The Japanese people used to chop off the heads of anybody who was disrespectful. Then they learned that all life should be respected, and had a law against beheading people who weren't commiting a crime.

Were they brainwashed or did they actually learn and choose for themselves?


I realize that has nothing to do with the original thread or even what we're talking about now, but it is a thought that I bet nobody thinks when they're considering that certain religions teach brainwash.

[FlyingPhilo]

I've come heer many time before. I am de-convert to Atheism and have been for a year or so. I have read about philosophy but I would like more information. I have read soem Voltaire, Paine, Nietzsche, Kant, Marx, and something about ethical subjectivism, which I agree with. I would like to have more information about Logic and Cosmology/Astronomy but haven't and idea where to start. I hope for a reply and I apologize for being a burden.

[Me]

I've come heer many time before. I am de-convert to Atheism and have been for a year or so. I have read about philosophy but I would like more information. I have read soem Voltaire, Paine, Nietzsche, Kant, Marx, and something about ethical subjectivism, which I agree with. I would like to have more information about Logic and Cosmology/Astronomy but haven't and idea where to start. I hope for a reply and I apologize for being a burden.

Google is a good place to start.

http://invisionfree.com/forums/Cosmos_Dream/

That is also chocked full of things like that.

[Mkx240]

Pepole who can think for themselves are smarter then getting stupid answers from religion. You dont need to search for answers its all there for you. isnt it simple. you guys have an answer for everything. So a kid ask how was the universe created? the parents tell him god created it. our they could say. well son, im not sure thats a question nobod is sure of, but scientist have made therioes about how it began. Most pepole dont think this way. They arent even willing to think of other answers. They just turn down any science. For once could you at least except other answers? such as o i beliven god but the therioe this scientist had made might actually be right. You can beliven what ever you want. Im an atheist, but i think anyone can beliven what they want. just be more open minded to others opinions.

[ocmpoma]

FlyingPhilo:

wikipedia.org is a free online encyclopedia that is highly reliable for objectivity.
For cosmology, I recommend any books by Stephen Hawking or Brain Greene (although he has been accused of bias towards String Theory).

[Me]

Pepole who can think for themselves are smarter then getting stupid answers from religion.

Except, as I said, what if it's the other way around? And what do you get your answers from? I know it's now your mind if you believe in the Big Bang and Evolution theory. Why? Because you didn't think of those. Somebody else did. But like with religious folk, it just makes sense to you.

You dont need to search for answers its all there for you. isnt it simple. you guys have an answer for everything. So a kid ask how was the universe created? the parents tell him god created it. our they could say. well son, im not sure thats a question nobod is sure of, but scientist have made therioes about how it began. Most pepole dont think this way. They arent even willing to think of other answers. They just turn down any science. For once could you at least except other answers? such as o i beliven god but the therioe this scientist had made might actually be right. You can beliven what ever you want. Just be more open minded.

To be perfectly honest, I have no problem accepting that I might be wrong in my theory of the creation of the universe, so your argument doesn't exactly affect me.

[MrCynic38]

Contradictory? How is thou shalt not murder contradictory to thou shalt not steal, exactly?

Not murder contradicting with steal, murder contradicting the parts of the bible that instruct belivers to murder gays, non-believers, etc.

No, I haven't heard George Carlin talk about them... I'm almost afraid to, lol.

Im gonna try to find a link after I post.

And some people who believe in God take the morals from their own mind too. Religion doesn't neccessarily make the Religious person's morals. I know of religious people who became religious because their morals coincided with the religion.

Like me, for example.

No problem with that, but I constantly felt like religion was more telling me what to do and less guiding me.

And I respect the fact that you get your morals from your own mind, but is it really so wrong to get morals from a different place too? Is it BRAINWASH if you learn that something you once thought was okay is now bad?

It isn't wrong to get morals from another source. But a collective morality can be dangerous for anybody who veers from it.

That's like murder.

The Japanese people used to chop off the heads of anybody who was disrespectful. Then they learned that all life should be respected, and had a law against beheading people who weren't commiting a crime.

Right.

Were they brainwashed or did they actually learn and choose for themselves?

They learned for themselves, but when's the last time the bible was altered? Thats why adhering to all of its morality lessons literaly is bad in my opinion.

I realize that has nothing to do with the original thread or even what we're talking about now, but it is a thought that I bet nobody thinks when they're considering that certain religions teach brainwash.
Maybe brainwashing is a bit too strong... maybe. But its safe to say that impressionable young minds are heavilly influenced by religion.

[Me]

I'm cutting your message short. I think the rest is pretty much settled by one side or the other.

Maybe brainwashing is a bit too strong... maybe. But its safe to say that impressionable young minds are heavilly influenced by religion.

Yes, but when they go to their public schools I think it evens out. Besides, is there really any problem with teaching children about religion?

[MrCynic38]

How is it evened out? Just because schools are secular, that doesn't counter any of the religion that they believe. If anything, the 'under god' in the pledge strengthens their belief.

[Me]

How is it evened out? Just because schools are secular, that doesn't counter any of the religion that they believe. If anything, the 'under god' in the pledge strengthens their belief.

If I hadn't seen how other peoples parents acted, I wouldn't have ever realized my dad was cruel and intolerant: because he was all I knew until I started school.

[Mkx240]

I'm cutting your message short. I think the rest is pretty much settled by one side or the other.

Maybe brainwashing is a bit too strong... maybe. But its safe to say that impressionable young minds are heavilly influenced by religion.

Yes, but when they go to their public schools I think it evens out. Besides, is there really any problem with teaching children about religion?

to answer your question. no there is no problem with teaching children about religion, But it should not be allowed in public schools. anymore questions i am very willing to answer.

[ocmpoma]

I think that we most definately should teach students about religion - about all religion, from an unbiased (as much as possible) viewpoint. But we should not, in a public school, teach children religion.

[MrCynic38]

If I hadn't seen how other peoples parents acted, I wouldn't have ever realized my dad was cruel and intolerant: because he was all I knew until I started school.

If you mean exposure to other people, then you're right, but when 75% of the country is Christian, how likely is it that you'll find that much diversity. Granted I did meet the person who was responsible for my atheism in school.

[Me]

If you mean exposure to other people, then you're right, but when 75% of the country is Christian, how likely is it that you'll find that much diversity. Granted I did meet the person who was responsible for my atheism in school.

I don't believe that much is Christian. I've met supposed "Christian Witches" who accept the mother Goddess as supreme but believe a hybrid Wiccan/Christian bible that teaches Jesus was the Mother Goddesses child.

Not to say it isn't wrong, but those people obviously aren't Christian as Christians would describe it, but would still say they're Christian on a poll.

I mean, unless we're keeping hidden spies to watch out for religious people and record everything about them, how can we honestly know the true percentage?

I think that we most definately should teach students about religion - about all religion, from an unbiased (as much as possible) viewpoint. But we should not, in a public school, teach children religion.

Agreed.

[MrCynic38]

Not to say it isn't wrong, but those people obviously aren't Christian as Christians would describe it, but would still say they're Christian on a poll.

It depends whoyou ask. An atheist would lump all of the christans together. while some sects of christianity believe that they're the only true christians. So anywhere from .0001% to 75% are christians ;)

[FlyingPhilo]

Thank you for your help. Although am I certian I will not be able to understand Hawking very well, I will be sure to look up others. I hope to come back and post some more when I am more educated on some topics because my current knowledge of such matters is limited to a few basics. Also, keep fighting the good fight.

[ocmpoma]

Actually, Hawking's two main books (A Brief History... and The Universe in a Nutshell) are very readable. The first is about Einsteinian physics, the second about quantum physics, both as regards cosmology.

[MrCynic38]

I'm cutting your message short. I think the rest is pretty much settled by one side or the other.

I just realized how much you dodged in my post. How do you explain the bible making it a sin to kill, and then instructing chirstians to murder gays and non-believers?

[Me]

Not to say it isn't wrong, but those people obviously aren't Christian as Christians would describe it, but would still say they're Christian on a poll.

It depends whoyou ask. An atheist would lump all of the christans together. while some sects of christianity believe that they're the only true christians. So anywhere from .0001% to 75% are christians ;)

Except a Christian is a person who believes in the Holy Trinity and Jesus Christ as God's son. That's why Mormon's aren't Christians, and that's why Wiccans aren't Christian.

[Me]

I'm cutting your message short. I think the rest is pretty much settled by one side or the other.

I just realized how much you dodged in my post. How do you explain the bible making it a sin to kill, and then instructing chirstians to murder gays and non-believers?

For the same reason I explain the death penalty: to some people, a crime is only punishable by death.

Not only that, but does the bible actually say it's a sin to KILL, or does it say it's a sin to MURDER?

[Mkx240]

I'm cutting your message short. I think the rest is pretty much settled by one side or the other.

I just realized how much you dodged in my post. How do you explain the bible making it a sin to kill, and then instructing chirstians to murder gays and non-believers?

For the same reason I explain the death penalty: to some people, a crime is only punishable by death.

Not only that, but does the bible actually say it's a sin to KILL, or does it say it's a sin to MURDER?

Why are some crimes only punishable by death? I think the death penalty is wrong.

[Me]

Why are some crimes only punishable by death? I think the death penalty is wrong.

Don't ask me. I'm against the death penalty as well.

[MrCynic38]

Do you think Homosexuality should be a capital crime?

[Me]

Do you think Homosexuality should be a capital crime?

Nope, but I can understand why some people, like the Texans, have laws that state you can only practice homosexuality in the privacy of your home.

[MrCynic38]

How can you understand that when you preach tolerance all the time?

P.S. I noticed that you registered.

[Me]

How can you understand that when you preach tolerance all the time?

P.S. I noticed that you registered.

Yeah, I registered. Typing in your information each time was getting annoying. :D


I can understand BECAUSE I preach tolerance. If I tolerating a peaceful point of view and not a more judgemental point of view, I'm not being tolerant: I'm tolerating tolerance!

Besides, most people don't put up laws like that out of INTOLERANCE but out of FEAR.

I wrote this for my class one time. It wasn't typical essay structure, so I only got a C+ for it.

(please excuse the constant posting and editing: I'm making the story shorter for fourm reasons and rewriting some parts so that the editing isn't as clear).


Bobby Jo was a devout Christian who lived in a diverse but peaceful city in Texas. She had two sons and a daughter, and a loving husband who was an all-american Republicrat and preached at their church as Senior Pastor. Like many Christians, she believed in the testament of love: she loved her God, loved to take walks, loved her family, loved her friends, and, most of all, loved her neighbours. But one of her neighbours was a little bit different than the others.

Danny Poe was a homosexual. He loved men as most men loved women, and expressed his feelings openly because they did not feel as strange to him as they seemed to Bobby Jo.

Bobby's love of exercise and neighbours once felt so strong, she pulled her youngest son along as they walked through the neighborhood waving - wave at the Muslims (they're so beautiful), wave at the Jews (such good cooks!), wave at the Wiccans (respecting of my beliefs), wave at the Christians (brothers and sisters in Christ!) - and smiling as they emitted their love, heedless of what awaited them.

As Bobby Jo turned the corner and saw the blue roof of the Poe house, she felt her smile grow, but her hand faltered as the doorstep came into view of her and her precious little boy. On it was a man dressed in tight black leather clothes leaning down to kiss her neighbour, clad in a thin pair of boxer shorts.

A bit stunned, Bobby's smile faltered and she lowered her hand to the side of her son's face, to keep him from witnessing something she thought ought to be private - as she thought all the lesser sins, such as sexual activities and witchcraft, ought to be.

She never noticed that Danny caught the gesture.

The next day, she dragged her boy along on the walk again, setting her goal to the church her husband preached at so that some people more educated in the spiritual ways might explain to him what it was his mother had covered his eyes from. As they wearily passed the Poe house, her heart leapt up in glee as she saw the door closed and no person outside.

She proudly raised her head and ushered her child along.

The next morning, still no sign of Danny. She began to feel a slight tingling of something - did he see her? - but shrugged it off. She went on her walk alone.

The morning after that, she saw something, but it was a For Sale sign. She frowned, but as she continued her walk, thought it was for the better. Now she didn't need competition when teaching her children about privacy and how to behave when they grew up.

Feeling confident about her walks again, on the next day she took her son again. They passed all the neighbours, and as she walked by the Poe house, she was startled as her neighbour ushered a common greeting:

"Hi."

Bobby started to walk her child faster, not wanting to explain herself - he didn't see her, what needed to be explained? - or have her child exposed to somebody as shameless as Mr. Poe. But he walked along his side of the fence just as fast before entering over onto the public side, and walking just at her heels.

"Seems like a nice day for a walk, huh?" He asked, mindless of the glare she was giving him. "I notice you walk every day, though: come hell or high water."

Bobby thought that ignoring him would make him go away, to make him give up exposing and radiating his ungodly tendencies onto her child, but he didn't. After all, she had no choice but to turn and face him.

"Sir, do not be offended, but I don't want my child to grow up to be like you. Whatever you do in your own house is your own business, but whatever you do in public view is the public's business."

He only tilted his head, smiling a clumsy little smile that Bobby wasn't sure if she liked or not.

"Our state, our neighborhood, and our bible have laws against that sort of behavior."

With that smille still in place, he shrugged.

"I know. I just wanted to walk in your shoes for a while and see what it is you see. To know what it is you know, and to think like you think. But it's kind of dull. You see that?" He pointed to a hedge that was raised six feet in the air. Bobby nodded. "From where your standing, you can't see that fly struggling between the branches of the darkness. If you can't see the fly, how can you help the fly?"

"Then again," Bobby said, catching the drift of his thoughts. "If my children don't see the spider, they won't learn how to be like it."

With that, he turned and left.

The following weeks afterwards, Bobby Jo neither walked nor allowed her children to take the walks that they so enjoyed. The Poe house was sold and the neighbour left and the new neighbour was a friendly Rabbi by the name of Yosef.

She began her walks again, but as she passed the hedge with the spider, she noticed the web shining in the sun.

She knew she was right: if her children were taught to avoid the spider, they'd never be trapped. But something inside of her wondered just who God would consider the fly.



^

So, to make a long story short (again), a lot of people just don't want that sort of behaviour reflected onto their children. They don't mind, really, if you do it in the hedge where nobody can see you.

[ocmpoma]

So, couples shouldn't show affection in public?

[Me]

So, couples shouldn't show affection in public?

No. But some people think so, which is the point of the laws in Texas.

[Illuminati]

Personally I think public displays of affection, are distasteful (hetero and homo). That being said it shouldn't be a criminal offence, there is nothing I despise more than fundies and homophobes.

[solidsquid]

So, couples shouldn't show affection in public?

No. But some people think so, which is the point of the laws in Texas.

You really dislike Texas/Texans I take it?

[Paradox]

isnt sodomy outright illegal in texas, even if in private?

[Eva]

not since last year, paradox....a texas case seen by the supreme court of the usa decided the texas law that made homosexual relations even in the home a crime was declared inconstitutional.

[MrCynic38]

Me, you don't think the person in your story was being exremly intolerant? Out of fear or not, intolerance is intolerance. As a lesbian, how can you even begin to understand their intolerance. Tolerance isn't just about tolerating everything, Its about eliminating intolerance. To tolerate intolerance is just as bad as to be intolerant.

[Anonymous_number1]

Me, you don't think the person in your story was being exremly intolerant? Out of fear or not, intolerance is intolerance. As a lesbian, how can you even begin to understand their intolerance. Tolerance isn't just about tolerating everything, Its about eliminating intolerance. To tolerate intolerance is just as bad as to be intolerant.

Nicely said.

So, couples shouldn't show affection in public?

No. But some people think so, which is the point of the laws in Texas.

You really dislike Texas/Texans I take it?

We should gang up on her, then. ;)

[Paradox]

to say that being intolerent to the intolerant is tolererant is self-contradictory. that being said, the intolerant should learn some empathy the hard way ;)

[Anonymous_number1]

to say that being intolerent to the intolerant is tolererant is self-contradictory. that being said, the intolerant should learn some empathy the hard way ;)

>_<

*implodes*

...argh...mind-fuck...

[God, my arse]

I agree, at my school there is a christian chaplain and no other religious groups, they wonder as they wish, give out bibles and preach. This is a non-religious public school.

I am sending a letter right now to stop it or allow other religions in.

[dd1989]

Half the time kids sing songs about God at school they don't even have a clue what the hell they are singing about, to them its just another song.

[psyadam]

Brainwashed? Your parents strap you into an electric chair if you don't go to church?
Well, going to church was never an option for me. I would tell my mom about how I thought it was boring as a child and I don't remember exactly what she said but I was never allowed to not go to church. Even to this day at 22 I have to go to church with them when I visit.

edit: even so, me and my parents maintain a good relationship. They know I am atheist (and gay-- we argue about this alot, but I try to avoid it as much as possible)

[exbeliever]

I'm sad to say that I was brainwashed and in fact started the same with our 7 and 10 year old. I took Santa, the Easter bunny, etc. away from them. I wish that I would have stopped listening to apologetics for contradictions and took the bible for what it says and NEVER introduced my children. My daughter is only 7 and loves Jesus even though we've stopped going to church and I've stopped teaching the bible at home. I'm so saddened that I did this to them, hopefully, with time it will wear off and when she's ready I'll tell her the atrocities implemented by god. However, at this time, I cannot tell her the horrific things that god allowed to happen to children, it'll only screw her up. My son is 10 and he had always questioned the bible anyway, I used to get steaming mad at him for questioning why god asked people to do this or why do we have to do that. It never made sense to him, so he is not damaged but still, I can never make up for those years that fun was taken away.

I've realized my brainwashing, and I am just coming out of the christian cult.

[PanAtheist]

Welcome Exbeliever!

Panatheist asks whether you ever REALLY believed?

Panatheist is INTERESTED in whether you had a REALISATION (when you were VERY young) that it was all ANTISENSICAL, and therefore HAD to be false, and whether you THEN DECIDED TO DISMISS this realisation and live as if you had never had it, and that from THEN ON you would NEVER EVER COUNTER THIS REALIZATION IN YOUR MIND, and therefore it might SEEM as though you "believed it".

Panatheist knows that this is what he did, when he was thrown into Christianity as a young boy, and wonders whether you did this as well?

PanAtheist is curious what you think about this!

PS. PanAtheist thinks that NOBODY really genuinely believes in "it". (There is not a coherent "it" to believe in :-). PanAtheist observes that tenets of religion do NOT have integrity, and that their adherents HAVE dismissed reason.

[exbeliever]

Welcome Exbeliever!

Panatheist asks whether you ever REALLY believed?

Panatheist is INTERESTED in whether you had a REALISATION (when you were VERY young) that it was all ANTISENSICAL, and therefore HAD to be false, and whether you THEN DECIDED TO DISMISS this realisation and live as if you had never had it, and that from THEN ON you would NEVER EVER COUNTER THIS REALIZATION IN YOUR MIND, and therefore it might SEEM as though you "believed it".

Panatheist knows that this is what he did, when he was thrown into Christianity as a young boy, and wonders whether you did this as well?

PanAtheist is curious what you think about this!

PS. PanAtheist thinks that NOBODY really genuinely believes in "it". (There is not a coherent "it" to believe in :-). PanAtheist observes that tenets of religion do NOT have integrity, and that their adherents HAVE dismissed reason.
I believed with all my heart and soul. My lifes goal was to find out gods will in my life. Studying the bible is what led me to unbelief. Even if it is true, the treatment at his command of children and babies is enough to make me loathe this god.

[PanAtheist]

Thank you for replying, exbeliever!

I am interested in your experience, which, perhaps, is strikingly different to mine.

If you DID believe with your whole being - then when you FIRST heard about miracles (presumably when you were VERY young) was your INITIAL reaction then NOT disbelief and offence at the absurdity(which strike me as natural reactions) but genuinely BELIEF (and APPRECIATION)?

And when you FIRST heard about the trinity (a little later perhaps), you again responded with whole-"hearted" belief and appreciation?

I would appreciate it if you would confirm that you did believe in these extra-ordinary things, first off, or if you didn't, what did you do with your disbelief? Did it perhaps run away?

:-)

[z3n]

Brainwashed? Your parents strap you into an electric chair if you don't go to church?
Well, going to church was never an option for me. I would tell my mom about how I thought it was boring as a child and I don't remember exactly what she said but I was never allowed to not go to church. Even to this day at 22 I have to go to church with them when I visit.
It was the same way for me as well. I don’t really know what my parents would have done or said if I told them I didn’t want to go to church, because the way I was raised it just wasn’t an option. I never considered the possible of saying that I didn’t want to go to church because I didn’t really know any different. I was home schooled and didn’t watch TV. And all of my friends that I grew up with were the same way. We all were home schooled and went to the same church and only played with those that did. Even to this day I still have yet to tell them that I’m an atheist even though I don’t live at home anymore. Now mine I’m sure is an extreme case, but was it brainwashing? I don’t really know, but I’m sure that some people would certainly consider it so.

edit: even so, me and my parents maintain a good relationship. They know I am atheist (and gay-- we argue about this alot, but I try to avoid it as much as possible)
I consider you a brave person. I’m nearly 30 years old and have been an atheist for at least 3 years and I still haven’t told my parents yet. I suppose its mostly out of fear of rejection and retribution. I don’t even want to think about what would happen if I were gay. My step-dad is one of the biggest homophobes that I know, which of course he allows himself to justify under the blanket of Christianity.

[Selden]

(and gay-- we argue about this alot, but I try to avoid it as much as possible)
What's there to argue about? It's not something that can be changed.

[3.14]

While this is sometimes the case, it isn't the only reason people come to believe in (any)God. I wasn't raised into any particular religion. In fact, my dad was an atheist, but didn't push the issue because he knew my mother wouldn't approve of it. Having been somewhat of a blank slate, I eventually came to believe in God.

[Selden]

And still do?

[3.14]

Yes (sorry for not being clear)

[oDd42]

[...] but I was never allowed to not go to church. Even to this day at 22 I have to go to church with them when I visit.

edit: even so, me and my parents maintain a good relationship. They know I am atheist (and gay-- we argue about this alot, but I try to avoid it as much as possible)
Psyadam -
I'm curious: does your 'having' to go to church just happen to coincide with your personal choice and/or desire to do so?
If yes, I would be similarly curious as to what your reasons for attending include.

[dd1989]

Its funny, if u say to a 5 year old kid "who made the world?" they would instantly say God. Why aint kids taught about evolution and stuff at an early age. Its not like its any more complicated than the man in the sky

[Somnus]

Its funny, if u say to a 5 year old kid "who made the world?" they would instantly say God. Why aint kids taught about evolution and stuff at an early age. Its not like its any more complicated than the man in the sky
It is a lot more complicated. Saying "God did it" is much easier than explaining the technicalities of evolution. A 5-year-old could not comprehend something such as evolution, but, they can comprehend an all-loving and all-powerful being in the sky (or imagination). Unlike the easter bunny, sadly, the parent most likely believes what he or she is telling his or her child about "God".. :/ And thus starts the life-long brainwashing! (assuming that the child is not intelligent enough to realize it is false)

[PanAtheist]

Somnus - I agree with you that teaching how alive beings came to exist, to an extent that generates understanding, is an extensive endeavour, that shall require an extensive accumulation of titbits of information, (not unllike the progress of "evolution" itself!). (And incidentally it demands an understanding of the whole mechanism of sexual reproduction!!)

And nevertheless, there is no excuse not to tell the truth about life to kids, bit-by-bit, as soon as they are interested.
It really doesn't matter that they demand instant "understanding" - they are going to have to learn a GREAT many things (MOST things) itty-bit-by-itty-bit, and they shall enjoy all the processes of learning the most if they are given the established truths, as we know them, everyday from "day one". [And I guess that all free-thinkers agree that telling them lies about life is an outrage, and actually unnecessary and a bad-thing!]

As for "A 5-year-old ... can COMPREHEND an all-loving and all-powerful being in the sky" who has made the earth and everything in it, and LIFE ITSELF, and the sky(!), clouds, sun, moon, and stars above etc. etc. etc. - NOPE!!! - That's pure BULLSHIT!!!

That kind of assertion CONFOUNDS a 5-year-old, a 10-year-old, and a 60-year-old all alike!!
CONFOUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YES CONFOUNDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EVERYONE IS CONFOUNDED BY THIS, and remains confounded, unless or until they get a grip on how religion works, and exactly what it is.

A child can see that a building can be built.
But an animal?
A patch of grass?
A mountain?
A lake?
I mean PLEASE!!!!!

And EVERY child knows instantly to ask "who made God?"

CONFOUNDED I SAY!!!!

"can comprehend"??????!!!!!!
I mean, PLEASE, in the nicest possible way - GET A GRIP!!!!!

[z3n]

And nevertheless, there is no excuse not to tell the truth about life to kids, bit-by-bit, as soon as they are interested.
I couldn’t agree more.

My wife and I have never once led our children to believe that there really is a Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, or Tooth Fairy. In fact we actually go so far as to make sure that they realize that there isn’t. Now do they still get presents for Christmas and money when the loose a tooth? Of course they do, but they know that it comes from mommy and daddy. We occasionally get ridiculed by our friends for being this way but we strongly hold the position that it is crueler to knowingly lie to a child into delusions just for the sake of trying to make something more then it is. Santa Claus is the jolly symbol of Christmas and nothing more. Lying about it isn’t going to make that symbol any better. However, I think that trying to get a child to not believe in something is actually more futile then trying to get them to believe. Even with all of our attempts of assuring our children that Santa Claus is not real, every now and then they still are convinced his existence.

Now my wife is a Christian, so we do differ on some things however. So when she talks about God and the Bible she doesn’t feel that she is lying. Which of course she really isn’t since she actually believes a lot of it to be true.

So does this mean that I try to directly contradict my wife’s beliefs when it comes to our kids? No, but I don’t validate them either. For example, my 7 year old came up to me one day and asked, “Daddy do dogs do to Heaven?”

Paraphrasing, I answered something like this: Some people believe that there is a Heaven and of those that do believe that there is, some of them probably believe that dogs might go there. But remember, some people believe that dogs don’t go to Heaven and that only people do, and some don’t even believe that there is a Heaven. So you will have to think about it and decide for yourself what you believe okay?

It is a lot more complicated. Saying "God did it" is much easier than explaining the technicalities of evolution.
Your right. And I think that any parent that relies on supernatural explanations for things is just copping out and being lazy, regardless if they believe in God or not.

“Five” year-old questions:

Why is the grass green?
There’s a green liquid stuff in all of the grass that turns it green (you can always put a stalk of celery into red food coloring to demonstrate).

What causes thunder?
When clouds bump and rub together they build up energy until it shoots to the ground.

Why do skunks smell?
That’s part of their natural protection. When something tries to eat them they spray the smelly stuff to make the other animal go away.

But how did the skunk get its smelly stuff?
Well a long time ago the baby skunks that were born with smelly stuff were better able to protect themselves and grow up to have more baby skunks with smelly stuff. But the skunks that were born without smelly stuff couldn’t protect themselves as well and would get eaten up before they would have any baby skunks. So now, only the skunks that smell bad are around.

See, I don’t think that its to hard, if a parent is just willing to take a couple of minutes to explain things to their children. Now yes, my answers may seem a little bit simplistic, but as a child gets older at least he/she will have a good foundation to learn in greater detail what they already know. You may believe in God or whatever and that’s fine, but I think that it’s harmful to a child’s development to explain everything away with a “God did it”.

[oliverwxyz]

I agree most kids are brainwashed into having religious belief. It might not be as extreme as being forced to believe all the tenets of Christianity in detail, but there may at the least be an assumption made by parents that there is a god and that we have souls and go to Heaven when we die etc, and quite likely that God had a son called Jesus who was born at Christmas time in a manger etc.. even if and when you start questioning ideas about Jesus I think the underlying belief in some kind of god, even some vague 'higher' meaning or purpose to life or cosmic justice, and some kind of 'spiritual' side to us and survival after death, linger on so it can feel difficult to give them up, if not even 'bad' - too 'materialistic'.
I think it partly comes from experiences of the death of a loved one , or even a loved pet, when an adult says they've gone to Heaven. Another example is eg. when something bad happens and people say it must have happened 'for a reason'. Later on, to reappraise these kind of ideas and think, actually we probably ARE 'just' A 'material' body and probably there is no one looking out for us (apart from our family and friends) can be hard.

[Tenspace]

Its funny, if u say to a 5 year old kid "who made the world?" they would instantly say God. Why aint kids taught about evolution and stuff at an early age. Its not like its any more complicated than the man in the sky
It is a lot more complicated. Saying "God did it" is much easier than explaining the technicalities of evolution. A 5-year-old could not comprehend something such as evolution, but, they can comprehend an all-loving and all-powerful being in the sky (or imagination). Unlike the easter bunny, sadly, the parent most likely believes what he or she is telling his or her child about "God".. :/ And thus starts the life-long brainwashing! (assuming that the child is not intelligent enough to realize it is false)
Actually, a five-year old could understand the basic evolutionary concepts if given a chance.

Tenspace

[psyadam]

[...] but I was never allowed to not go to church. Even to this day at 22 I have to go to church with them when I visit.

edit: even so, me and my parents maintain a good relationship. They know I am atheist (and gay-- we argue about this alot, but I try to avoid it as much as possible)
Psyadam -
I'm curious: does your 'having' to go to church just happen to coincide with your personal choice and/or desire to do so?
If yes, I would be similarly curious as to what your reasons for attending include.
I didn't realize that it wasn't clear that I am a strong atheist...

Well, I am.

To be fair though, I could believe in a religion where being gay was considered doctorine. Until that church exists I'm an athiest. (Note: this is meant to be a joke)

[oDd42]

[...] but I was never allowed to not go to church. Even to this day at 22 I have to go to church with them when I visit.

edit: even so, me and my parents maintain a good relationship. They know I am atheist (and gay-- we argue about this alot, but I try to avoid it as much as possible)
Psyadam -
I'm curious: does your 'having' to go to church just happen to coincide with your personal choice and/or desire to do so?
If yes, I would be similarly curious as to what your reasons for attending include.
I didn't realize that it wasn't clear that I am a strong atheist...

Well, I am.

To be fair though, I could believe in a religion where being gay was considered doctorine. Until that church exists I'm an athiest. (Note: this is meant to be a joke)
You were clear, and are now even clearer :)

But I was inquiring as to your motives, not challenging your atheist-ness. I try not to jump to conclusions, like "you're still letting your parents control you, and definitely from fear of confrontation" :/, when there are others such as friends/social reasons; "knowing thy enemy"; morning coffee & donuts; pockets burnt 10% the way through; or um I really don't know!

[oDd42]

BTW, I am the same age as yourself. And I have a likeminded friend who nevertheless goes to church whenever in town, from whom I've not heard reasoning other than his parents' expectations, and I'm sure some part the social aspect. Not that I asked more than once. Anyway.. hopefully I hadnt come across as grilling you or whatever out of nowhere! "QUISQUE SUUM FACIT"

[Adeldas]

I am 40+ years old. I was raised a Catholic. Catholic primary school, Catholic secondary school. Growing up I always felt there was something wrong. A lot of what I was taught did not sit comfortably with me, even as a child. But I did not question it. Even in my twenties, I did not question it. It was not until 10 years ago that I found out that my grand father was a freemason and started to research the masons that some liberating fact crept in. I have not looked back from that day and have kept researching Roman Catholic history. I look back now and realise that it was fear that stoped me from asking the questions that I had. "Fear of damnation". If that is not the ultimate definition of Brain washing, then please tell me what is.

[ChiefOfAss]

You say it was "Fear of Damnation". Are you sure it wasn't fear of social persecution? It seems more likely you were afraid of consequences in the hear and now, and not the hear after.

I'm just making an assumption because I never-ever felt right about it either. And, my only fears were that of being burned at the stake or the modern equivalent.

I was raised in the Southern Baptist church, which in central Florida, is like being raised Episcopal in a Catholic community. Which - not that it matters - but, just so you know.

I was never liberated from religion because I never believed, but I do feel liberation in reading posts from people like you.

I'm new here, and it's exciting to read posts from other people who don't believe. I wrote this big long post in another thread that kind of bashes atheism, and I just realized that I don't really know anything about other non-believers.

I only know what seems to be the popular view of atheism in our culture: "Atheists are people who don't believe in God because someone hurt them, and they blame God."

As a result, I don't really understand Christians, because I might go jihad on anyone who says they want to pray for me (which seems to be the end result of any conversation with a Christian).

I'm trying to keep from turning every post into a manifesto, but even though I'm 30, I'm like a 16 year old when it comes to this new community of non-believers.

I can't wait to find out more.

[jude]

Who cares about "social persecution"? If you are going to do something, like church for an atheist, or a slayer concert for a Christian, you should at least state your position that you are opposed to it, unless youre an atheist, then you can just lie. But don't act like something you're not. I am a Christian, (not a very good one at that), and I went to an AFI concert. It was crowded and hot and I had to make sure to stay out of the fights. And everyone had lighters. I have alot of lighters. Well, I told my friends who took me to it that I wasn't into that stuff and I got alot of remarks for it, but at least I don't have to pretend to be someone I'm not. So if you feel pressured to do something that is against your what you believe in, tell them to make like a joint and smoke. Doing something that you KNOW you are against is worse than doing it and not knowing that it is wrong. I will pray for all of you. lol- does that freak some of you out?

[ChiefOfAss]

I will pray for all of you. lol- does that freak some of you out?
I'd rather you masturbate for me..... lol- does that freak you out?

[leguru]

To be fair though, I could believe in a religion where being gay was considered doctorine. Until that church exists I'm an athiest. (Note: this is meant to be a joke)
There are at least two that I know of, maybe more: Metropolitan Community Church and Soka Gakkai International (SGI-USA). Let me know if you're serious about this and I'll let you know how to contact one in your area.

[psyadam]

Let me know if you're serious about this and I'll let you know how to contact one in your area.
To be fair though, I could believe in a religion where being gay was considered doctorine. Until that church exists I'm an athiest. (Note: this is meant to be a joke)
I really wasn't kidding when I said this was meant to be a joke. Religion in any form is evil.

[Adeldas]

Religion in any form is evil" Amen to that (excuse the phrase). Religion breeds fanatic's. Fanatics interperate "Gods" word any way that suits them. Then we get devestation (9-11). Anyone who does not spend every monent with the word of "God" on their lip and mind, in every thing they say and do is not a true Catholic, Prodistant, or any othe religion you can think of. Any one that say's and does everything for "God", You know the kind, every sentence refers to "god" in one way or another,"God bless you", "pray to god to help you understand", "give money to save you're soul", that type, that is a fanatic. And fanatic's are to be feared. History proves it, millions of people through the ages have been brutaly killed because of an interpretation of the word of god that suited them. It happens time and time again, and is still happining (9-11) and we refuse to learn histories greatest leason.

[leguru]

By the definition used here, then, "religion" only applies to those social institutions that require a belief in some "Guy in the Sky". What about philosphies that do not? Mahayana Buddhist organizations are humanistic oriented and do not deify Buddha. Some do not have hierarchal structures that manipulate the masses, as do most western "religions". Where would this form of organization fit into the scheme of things?

[Choobus]

By the definition used here, then, "religion" only applies to those social institutions that require a belief in some "Guy in the Sky". What about philosphies that do not? Mahayana Buddhist organizations are humanistic oriented and do not deify Buddha. Some do not have hierarchal structures that manipulate the masses, as do most western "religions". Where would this form of organization fit into the scheme of things?
Also, isn't it playing into the religious theme by talking about evil? Evil cannot exist without good and all that crap, but aren't these terms meaningless in a world without God?

[Choobus]

I will pray for all of you. lol- does that freak some of you out?
I'd rather you masturbate for me..... lol- does that freak you out?
Jude, I think you are truly a cunt.

asschief, Jack off for me and all christians by all means, but please try to get the jizz frozen in nitrogen while it is still viable

[Adeldas]

The dictionary meaning of evil: harmful, bad, and malicious. The word is not just useful in a religious sense.

[Choobus]

The dictionary meaning of evil: harmful, bad, and malicious. The word is not just useful in a religious sense.
dictionary definition of assclown: Adeldas, Korn loving spaz

[z3n]

Who cares about "social persecution"?
Mostly people that get socially persecuted I would imagine. You know like racial minorities and women to start things off.

If you are going to do something, like church for an atheist, or a slayer concert for a Christian, you should at least state your position that you are opposed to it, unless youre an atheist, then you can just lie.
Oh I see, if you’re an atheist you can just lie because it’s no big deal for us and our evil selves right? Well you know what, screw you buddy. I’m an honest person because I find it to be a good value and I think that dishonesty can cause more harm then good. I’m honest because I want to be honest. Why are you honest? Because you think that god doesn’t like it and that it’s a 'sin' that could cause you to go to hell. So who is the better person, one that is honest because they want to be, or one because they’re scared into it?

I am a Christian, (not a very good one at that), and I went to an AFI concert. It was crowded and hot and I had to make sure to stay out of the fights. And everyone had lighters. I have alot of lighters. Well, I told my friends who took me to it that I wasn't into that stuff and I got alot of remarks for it, but at least I don't have to pretend to be someone I'm not.
What exactly is your whole point behind this here? You go to an AFI concert to have (I assume) fun but yet try to show that you think that somehow you’re above everyone else there because of some lighter thing.

I will pray for all of you. lol- does that freak some of you out?
Not really, but by the mere fact that you told us that it does show you as being sort of pretentious and self-righteous.

[Adeldas]

Jude: Don't bother praying for me my conscience is clear pray for your self. What is it about holding up a lighter at a concert that makes you untrue to yourself? You’re a Christian, don't you hold up a candle at Xmas. You say your a Christian but not a good one, you talk about being true to yourself. You talk about going to an AFI concert as if it was some sort of atheist convention but you went anyway. Pray for yourself, you are a very confused person. You need to sit down a think, decide what you believe in because right now, you are not being true to your self.

[Sir Sin-O-Lot]

I will pray for all of you. lol- does that freak some of you out?
Not really, you're around the third person this month.

[leguru]

Also, isn't it playing into the religious theme by talking about evil? Evil cannot exist without good and all that crap, but aren't these terms meaningless in a world without God?
"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you don't understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret."
Lao-tsu

[Tenspace]

I will pray for all of you. lol- does that freak some of you out?
I'd rather you spend the ten minutes or whatever performing some charitable act in our name. That would mean more to us than prayer, and would actually accomplish something positive.

Tenspace

[Little Earth Stamper]

I will pray for all of you. lol- does that freak some of you out?
I'd rather you spend the ten minutes or whatever performing some charitable act in our name. That would mean more to us than prayer, and would actually accomplish something positive.

Tenspace
It can also be argued quite persuasively that, according to the bible, charitable acts are a form of worship.

[Choobus]

I will pray for all of you. lol- does that freak some of you out?
I'd rather you spend the ten minutes or whatever performing some charitable act in our name. That would mean more to us than prayer, and would actually accomplish something positive.

Tenspace
It can also be argued quite persuasively that, according to the bible, charitable acts are a form of worship.
that's the most retarded thing I've heard since mmmnnnnghghggh mmn bbdcghdgtye ummmmm durrr durr ghmmhh gdurgg

[z3n]

I'd rather you spend the ten minutes or whatever performing some charitable act in our name. That would mean more to us than prayer, and would actually accomplish something positive.

Tenspace
It can also be argued quite persuasively that, according to the bible, charitable acts are a form of worship.
that's the most retarded thing I've heard since mmmnnnnghghggh mmn bbdcghdgtye ummmmm durrr durr ghmmhh gdurgg
Um, Choobus I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at but LES has a valid point.

Acts 10:4 for example says: "…Your prayers and your acts of charity have come up as a memorial offering before God.”

And Mat 25:40 says: "And the King will answer them, 'I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.”

So I would say that just from a couple of verses (I’m sure there’s more) one could easily deduce that the Bible says that God does see charity as a form of worship.

So who exactly is posting retarded things here?

[Adeldas]

So by what sleeping caterpillar says, if we a charitable to a friend who is down on his luck, We are worshiping God. Following that reasoning, if you're and atheist, you are a bustard, if you are a religious person then you can be a good person.
Bullshit, being charitable is being a good human not a good Christian.
The basic lesson in the bible " do unto other as you would have them do unto you" is an excellent principle to live by. And just because it is in the bible it should not be discarded. What should be discarded is the person whom apparently wrote it.

[Spurius Furius]

So by what sleeping caterpillar says, if we a charitable to a friend who is down on his luck, We are worshiping God. Following that reasoning, if you're and atheist, you are a bustard, if you are a religious person then you can be a good person.
Bullshit, being charitable is being a good human not a good Christian.
The basic lesson in the bible " do unto other as you would have them do unto you" is an excellent principle to live by. And just because it is in the bible it should not be discarded. What should be discarded is the person whom apparently wrote it.
Gosh, I thought that the basic lesson of the bible was that there is an invisible man in the sky that loves me. The fact that there is something of value in the bible is due to the fact that if you throw enough shit on the wall, some of it sticks!

[z3n]

So by what sleeping caterpillar says, if we a charitable to a friend who is down on his luck, We are worshiping God. Following that reasoning, if you're and atheist, you are a bustard, if you are a religious person then you can be a good person.
You sound like you might have misunderstood what I was trying to show. I was merely, showing that LES was right in saying that the Bible could be interpreted to say that it sees charitable works as a form of worship to God. Whatever. As far as I’m concerned the Bible can be interpreted to say whatever the fuck people want it too. I doesn’t make any difference to me because I don’t appeal to the authority of the Bible so the whole thing is moot as far as I’m concerned. The only time I use the Bible is to show something within it’s own context (e.g. contradictions, absurdities, cruelty etc.) to discuss or argue with Christians that do treat the Bible as authority.

Bullshit, being charitable is being a good human not a good Christian.
Yes that is true. Isn’t sad though that that isn’t most Christian's take on the matter. Christians typically say that they are good simply because they are Christian, and say that atheists are evil simply because they're not Christian.

The basic lesson in the bible " do unto other as you would have them do unto you" is an excellent principle to live by.
The “basic lesson” of the Bible? Come on, if you’ve ever read the Bible at any length you would know that that is far from the only “lesson” that the Bible is trying to put across. And a great deal of them aren’t near as nice as that one.

And just because it is in the bible it should not be discarded. What should be discarded is the person whom apparently wrote it.
I agree with you, but things also shouldn’t necessarily be accepted either just because they might be in the Bible.

[z3n]

The dictionary meaning of evil: harmful, bad, and malicious. The word is not just useful in a religious sense.
Main Entry: evil
Pronunciation: 'E-v&l, British often and US also 'E-(")vil
1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED

So yes and no. “Evil” is basically synonymous with “sinful” which is very much a religious word. So while it doesn’t have to be, I can think of only very few times that the word ‘evil’ isn’t usually used without out a least alluding to something in a religious context.

[Spurius Furius]

The dictionary meaning of evil: harmful, bad, and malicious. The word is not just useful in a religious sense.
Main Entry: evil
Pronunciation: 'E-v&l, British often and US also 'E-(")vil
1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED

So yes and no. “Evil” is basically synonymous with “sinful” which is very much a religious word. So while it doesn’t have to be, I can think of only very few times that the word ‘evil’ isn’t usually used without out a least alluding to something in a religious context.
Yea. Every time Bush talks about stamping out EVIL-doers the atheist hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

[Adeldas]

I don't think we need put too much we need emphasis on a word, like many words can have many uses. "Evil" can be used in context with the bible or out of context with the bible. Just like the word "sacrifice", instantly you think of it religious meaning, yet we use it every day, eg: we have to sacrifice some luxuries to buy this! After all the word was not invented by the writers of the bible. Don't give them so much credit.

Yea. Every time Bush talks about stamping out EVIL-doers the atheist hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
It makes my hair stand on end as well, it sound like something out of a superhero comic. We have a Batman; want to be running the most powerful nation in the world. Oh Yeh that makes my hair stand on end.

[z3n]

I don't think we need put too much we need emphasis on a word, like many words can have many uses…After all the word was not invented by the writers of the bible. Don't give them so much credit.
Well of course not, the writers of the Bible spoke in Hebrew and Greek but that’s not really the point. It doesn’t matter where the word came from or what it’s actual definition is. The point is that today it’s connections with religion are very prevalent in our culture. Use it if you want, but just keep in mind that when you do most people are going to see “evil” as being “against god”.

[Spurius Furius]

Main Entry: evil
Pronunciation: 'E-v&l, British often and US also 'E-(")vil
1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED

So yes and no. “Evil” is basically synonymous with “sinful” which is very much a religious word. So while it doesn’t have to be, I can think of only very few times that the word ‘evil’ isn’t usually used without out a least alluding to something in a religious context.
Yea. Every time Bush talks about stamping out EVIL-doers the atheist hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
Every time he says new-ku-lar I feel an urge to either throw up or join al quada............
Please choose vomiting!

[valleyshrew]

It should be illegal to raise children in anything other than a secular environment. It's not fair otherwise. I was raised Christian, and I've watched my younger siblings being brainwashed, it really is criminal behaviour.

[z3n]

It should be illegal to raise children in anything other than a secular environment.
Now I’m a strong atheist and a big advocate of church and state separation, but it sounds like you’re advocating taking away freedom of/from religion. Remember freedom of religion gives people as much right to be atheists as it does to be theists. Without it a government could just as easily make laws supporting a certain religion as it could about being anti-religion.

If we lose religious freedom the government could make a law saying that you have to raise you children as Christians.

[valleyshrew]

No, I'm not "taking away" freedom, I'm enhancing it. I don't think Children have freedom of religion if they're brought up with it. Of course, I don't really believe it's possible or even ideal to ban parents from brainwashing their children, but it should be just what parents ideally normally do.

[z3n]

Okay well you used the term illegal so I figured that you meant that it should be a government thing.

I don't think Children have freedom of religion if they're brought up with it.
Well right or wrong, children don’t have the same freedoms that adults do while their still under the care of their parents. I mean even though racism and sexism is thought of as wrong by most people, there really isn’t anything that keeps parents from teaching it to their children.

I don't really believe it's possible or even ideal to ban parents from brainwashing their children, but it should be just what parents ideally normally do.
I agree since like even though racism is technically illegal (i.e. anti-discrimination laws) it doesn’t keep some parents from passing it onto their kids.

[FiberglassDolphin]

Except a Christian is a person who believes in the Holy Trinity and Jesus Christ as God's son. That's why Mormon's aren't Christians, and that's why Wiccans aren't Christian.
Anyone who worships Christ can be considered a Christian, whether they believe in a trinity or not. But, Mormons do believe in Jesus as the son of God, Nimrod. I spent three school years in semenary learning about Mormonism. :rolleyes:

I noticed that my semenary teacher used a few of the stories that are found false at Snopes.com in her lessons. Christians like to make up touching stories and e-mail them around.

[testmania]

A religion must never be imposed on a child. Only after that individual is mature and conscious enough to understand what all the religions is all about then he/she should be entitled to choose to have a religion or not. That's the biggest mistake parents make.

[PanAtheist]

I do not understand what religion is all about.
Am I immature, and inadequately conscious? :-)

[leguru]

I understand what religion is all about: controlling those weaker than you by fear and intimidation. :lol:

[baric]

A religion must never be imposed on a child. Only after that individual is mature and conscious enough to understand what all the religions is all about then he/she should be entitled to choose to have a religion or not. That's the biggest mistake parents make.
For religion to survive, it must always be imposed on children. After intellectual maturity, it becomes very difficult change a person's ideological worldview without a stressful event in his/her life.

That is why 90% of people are the same religion as their parents and why churches are always trying to get into the public school system.

[Another brick in the wall]

I don't see what the big deal is with imposing religion on children. My parents imposed religion on me and I recognized it for the bullshit it is. In some ways, breaking free of religion was a valuable experience for me. It seems like some of you underestimate the ability of children to determine what is true.

[testmania]

I don't see what the big deal is with imposing religion on children. My parents imposed religion on me and I recognized it for the bullshit it is. In some ways, breaking free of religion was a valuable experience for me. It seems like some of you underestimate the ability of children to determine what is true.
The same goes for me. I was never Bar Mitzvah(ed). But unfortunately, a lot people get brainwashed into joining a religion that way. Check out this funny movie: http://usa.rael.org/video/baptism.wmv

[Tenspace]

I don't see what the big deal is with imposing religion on children. My parents imposed religion on me and I recognized it for the bullshit it is. In some ways, breaking free of religion was a valuable experience for me. It seems like some of you underestimate the ability of children to determine what is true.
Children have an instinctive sense that their parents will keep them safe, and to believe everything they say; it's part of the brain's early hardwiring, and was useful in a natural environment. You are lucky, apparently you are part of the current human speciation. :)

Tenspace

[Tenspace]

I don't see what the big deal is with imposing religion on children. My parents imposed religion on me and I recognized it for the bullshit it is. In some ways, breaking free of religion was a valuable experience for me. It seems like some of you underestimate the ability of children to determine what is true.
The same goes for me. I was never Bar Mitzvah(ed). But unfortunately, a lot people get brainwashed into joining a religion that way. Check out this funny movie: http://usa.rael.org/video/baptism.wmv
Didn't you just trade one fairytale for another?

Ten

[lodger16]

This is a variation of the argument, "I made it big, why can't everyone else be a millionaire?". It is anecdotal evidence, of little use in a society of 290 million, and a world of 7 billion.
The fact is, religion is spread overwhelmingly by the indoctrination of the young, from the madrassas of Pakistan to the Sunday schools of Kalamazoo.
If it were not effective, the 'faithful' would stop their practice of it. The 'faithful' get all bent out of shape if beliefs contrary to their own are taught in schools, or even shown in the media in a free society. Why? Because they know their religious beliefs will not stand up to challenge when faced with competing ideas.
Your particular case, similar to my own, is the exception that proves the rule. I cannot judge others who did not break free of their imposed beliefs to be inferior to myself, anymore than I blame myself for not being a prodigy at classical piano, or whatever.

[James]

Religion amounts to political primary socialisation. Your average Christian pays their taxes and supports their government wars, supports the governments right-wing policy. It suits the ruling class to have a religious subordinate class.

Schools just start it off, catch them while they are still young. Hey, you could convice a kid that he will go blind if he masturbates, well that is what a Christian repressed dick head would try to do.

[Kamikaze189]

Religion DOES brainwash. I was a victim, I KNOW. It doesn't matter if you don't understand. They'll (peer) pressure you into it. They'll threaten you with feeling like an outsider, "Believe this or we'll exile you." And you're told from one pov that it's right.

If you're smart, you'll realize just how much of it is bullshit and get out of there. Who the fuck cares what some crazy people think of you anyway?

[James]

Yep, I don't care if some fat nutter with a bible thinks I am going to hell, he is going for a triple bypass, and probably a fuck with some choir-boy upon recovery.

[DennisRB]

At the end of the day its quite easy to prove brainwashing over free choice. Think about this carefully theists.... EASY!!!

If kids really had the free choice to choose their religious beliefs, people of differing religions would be EVENLY distributed around the world. Thats right, your neighbor would have just as much chance of being Muslim or Buddhist than he would of being Christian. But why is this not so? Different countries have different religions. For example, America is predominantly Christian and Iraq Muslim. Why is this so...

Think about it for a second...

Come on, use some critical thinking...

Got it yet...?

Well the answer is.... People have a much higher chance of taking on belief of their parents. If a country is predominantly Muslim or Christian, it will tend to stay that way, due to the brainwashing of its general population as it grows up by their parents. If brainwashing had no effect you would see an even distribution of varying religions around the world and in each country. A kid who's parents were Christian would have as much chance of becoming Muslim as he would Christian or Buddhist. Its glaringly statistically obvious that this does not happen.

How can you explain the trend of children taking on the religion of thier parents if its not brainwashing?

[thomas]

Let me just change the context of your argument

If kids really had the free choice to choose their social customs, people of differing social customs would be EVENLY distributed around the world. Thats right, your neighbor would have just as much chance of eating with chopsticks than he would of eating with knives and forks. But why is this not so? Different countries have different social customs. For example, America is predominantly knife and fork users and Japan chopstick users. Why is this so...

Now, would you say that Americans brainwash their children to use knives and forks (well just forks actually, judging by most restaraunts I've been in) ? I don't think so. They just teach their children what they think is right. Same for religion. Parents teach their children what they think is true, and important and valuable to them. That doesn't mean they are right, or that their ideas are right, althought they could be of course.

Oh, and in the context of Christianity a parent cannot make their child a Christian. They can tell them about the faith and its beliefs but the decision to accept that as truth belongs to the child.

[Another brick in the wall]

Yeah, but most people take on the religion of their parents, often after much threatening and cajoling.

[HeWhoAsks]

Now, would you say that Americans brainwash their children to use knives and forks (well just forks actually, judging by most restaraunts I've been in) ? I don't think so. They just teach their children what they think is right. Same for religion. Parents teach their children what they think is true, and important and valuable to them. That doesn't mean they are right, or that their ideas are right, althought they could be of course.
Oh my dear thomas: Of course we "brainwash" our children *all* of our social customs (although brainwash is too strong a word, but is basically functional), including religion (mostly). Is there any substantive sense in which forks and knives are "correct" and chopsticks aren't?! Or trousers more than a robe? Or one song when you're married versus another? Of course not. We only do them because that's what everyone else did as we were growing up. Your analogy only proves the other point.

When you say that parents teach their children what they think is true, you are missing the whole argument about social customs. The whole point is that the parents only think their religion is true because *their* parents thought that religion was true because *their parents, etc., etc. What didn't happen (mostly) was an equal familiarity with the world's religions and then an objective choice as to which was true.

[dontdrinkblood]

Brainwashed? Your parents strap you into an electric chair if you don't go to church? They bring you up with the Christian belief because their belief is important to them and they want to pass it on to their offspring.

You seeing Christianity as a bunch brainwashed people is ignorant. Nobody shoved Christianity down my throat. In the end we either believe or we don't. Not everyone who is raised a Christian really believes it. Nobody can make you believe. You believe for yourself. In the end we determine our fate, no one else.

You can tell me I glow purple in the dark and I can go along with it but that doesn't make me believe it. There are people out there who go to church who are atheist. I know a guy who is atheist and goes to church regularly. Does this make him believe in god. No, he's atheist.

Sorry I'm new to this forum, just testing the mechanics of the system right now.

[dontdrinkblood]

Brainwashed? Your parents strap you into an electric chair if you don't go to church? They bring you up with the Christian belief because their belief is important to them and they want to pass it on to their offspring.

You seeing Christianity as a bunch brainwashed people is ignorant. Nobody shoved Christianity down my throat. In the end we either believe or we don't. Not everyone who is raised a Christian really believes it. Nobody can make you believe. You believe for yourself. In the end we determine our fate, no one else.

You can tell me I glow purple in the dark and I can go along with it but that doesn't make me believe it. There are people out there who go to church who are atheist. I know a guy who is atheist and goes to church regularly. Does this make him believe in god. No, he's atheist.
Your whole argument stems from your Christian belief in free will and this is where the argument avoids resolution. An athiest cannot believe in free will because he/she realizes that every bit of who we are is forged by two things: genetics and life experience. If two pieces of trailer trash have a baby and every day of that child's life they tell that kid that he is stupid than I as an atheist (agnostic really) believe that there is no amount of therapy or theology that will convince that child otherwise, he's programed. But you assert that that kid, having grown up in an enviornment of constant mental abuse still has the ability to honestly believe that he is a intelligent individual. To me this is a ridiculous idea.

[thomas]

An athiest cannot believe in free will because he/she realizes that every bit of who we are is forged by two things: genetics and life experience.
I think you'll find many atheists who do believe in the concept of free-will and reject determinism. By the way, did you choose to write that post, or were you forced to do it by your genetics and life-experience ? I need to know if I'm conversing with a bot.

[Nicole]

Let me just change the context of your argument

If kids really had the free choice to choose their social customs, people of differing social customs would be EVENLY distributed around the world. Thats right, your neighbor would have just as much chance of eating with chopsticks than he would of eating with knives and forks. But why is this not so? Different countries have different social customs. For example, America is predominantly knife and fork users and Japan chopstick users. Why is this so...
While this is an excellent example of cultural norms I think that it's difficult to compare it with religious beliefs due to the fact that cutlery does not affect the way people make decisions or live their lives.


Oh, and in the context of Christianity a parent cannot make their child a Christian. They can tell them about the faith and its beliefs but the decision to accept that as truth belongs to the child.
Thomas, you can't really believe that every child has the freedom to choose? Perhaps your parents gave you a choice. Maybe they exposed you to other ideas or allowed you to find them on your own but I don't think that most children get that chance. Only a child with extraordinary willpower will pull away from the social norm. Most need to 'belong' even if that belonging includes their beliefs.

dontdrinkblood wrote:
An athiest cannot believe in free will because he/she realizes that every bit of who we are is forged by two things: genetics and life experience.
I completely believe in free will. People break free of the limits of their genetics and life experience all the time just by acts of free will. I remember a young Native woman that I went to University with. No one in her family had even made it to high school. She had to study harder than others because it was more difficult for her but she did so that she could graduate university and make a life that she wanted. Her free will bought her that education against all her life experience and genetic make-up.

[Ownthink]

Gah, I had a conversation with this dumb brainwashed bitch who claimed she "saw the light and it was freaking awesome". She was brainwashed. Sad, indeed. Too bad I lost the conversation when I had to reformat, it was a good read!

[calpurnpiso]

Gah, I had a conversation with this dumb brainwashed bitch who claimed she "saw the light and it was freaking awesome". She was brainwashed. Sad, indeed. Too bad I lost the conversation when I had to reformat, it was a good read!
Hmmm...did you have a good time?. Christ-psychosis infected girls are great in bed!!..of course one has to pretend one is equally infected or ready to accept the neurosis. The rewards are amazing!..years back I was making love to one of them and she was scratching my back with her Christian nails and kept screaming:

"Oh yes!!..Oh yeah..thank you jesus for sending me this man,,,oh,,,lord...thank you lord for this man..oh..." I do not like this Christian violent testimonials when making love...I was loosing my concentration..but they are goood!..they follow all of the necesary command when receiving penis-christ!...

Christian girls remind me of that crazy Christianity infected nymph, the first to describe a female orgasm in history (12 Century), Hildegard of Bingen. Next time a Christ-psychotic female approaches you tell her you want to study some passages of the babble with her, alone in your apt..there are some juicy erotic words in that fabulous compedium of idiocies. At least one can use the babble as a bait to get those naive, ignorant, superstitious....but horny and willing ( with the right Christian partner) Christian women. They all want to receive the libidinal saviour.."Christ"....:)

[Ownthink]

Gah, I had a conversation with this dumb brainwashed bitch who claimed she "saw the light and it was freaking awesome". She was brainwashed. Sad, indeed. Too bad I lost the conversation when I had to reformat, it was a good read!
Hmmm...did you have a good time?. Christ-psychosis infected girls are great in bed!!..of course one has to pretend one is equally infected or ready to accept the neurosis. The rewards are amazing!..years back I was making love to one of them and she was scratching my back with her Christian nails and kept screaming:

"Oh yes!!..Oh yeah..thank you jesus for sending me this man,,,oh,,,lord...thank you lord for this man..oh..." I do not like this Christian violent testimonials when making love...I was loosing my concentration..but they are goood!..they follow all of the necesary command when receiving penis-christ!...

Christian girls remind me of that crazy Christianity infected nymph, the first to describe a female orgasm in history (12 Century), Hildegard of Bingen. Next time a Christ-psychotic female approaches you tell her you want to study some passages of the babble with her, alone in your apt..there are some juicy erotic words in that fabulous compedium of idiocies. At least one can use the babble as a bait to get those naive, ignorant, superstitious....but horny and willing ( with the right Christian partner) Christian women. They all want to receive the libidinal saviour.."Christ"....:)
Bahaha that was some funny shit :lol: