Challenge: Proof god does not exist.

[ChiefOfAss]

First off... I think there are so many other questions we could ask of each other and the world. Here are a few that seem much more compelling, to me, anyway:
- Why did man invent god?
- What purpose does god serve today?
- Can man-kind exist socially without god?
- Where is god's role in society going?
- Do some individuals need god in order to participate constructively in society?
And so on....

I see some of it in posts, but the debate over whether god exists seems to claim an undue number of threads, eventually. The number one part of any of the discussions that gets my blood boiling is how atheists seem to allow getting tongue tied by this bullshit notion that, "no one can prove or disprove the existence of god".

So, out of frustration... and as a sanity check, please challenge me with any reasonable criticism.

How is the whole question and answer not a simple as:
Q: Does God exist?
A: No, it is impossible because:
- There's no place for god to be.
- God is not in the sky.
- God is not in the ground.
- God is nowhere in the observable universe
- There is no means by which a god or gods could apply influence in this world even if he were to exist outside the observable universe.
- Nothing in nature requires God for an explanation or possible explanation

What else is there? Is it such a big question that we expect the answer can't be that simple?

[z3n]

So I guess you either didn’t believe me or didn’t read my response to you in the other thread (http://ravingatheist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=18609#p18609) when I stated that logically destroying god does very little since all theists will just eventually appeal to faith.

I don’t normally like to play “devil’s advocate” but let me try briefly to see if I can illustrate my point.

- There's no place for god to be.
- God is not in the sky.
- God is not in the ground.
- God is nowhere in the observable universe
God does not exist in the observable universe. God is supernatural and therefore outside of the known universe.

- There is no means by which a god or gods could apply influence in this world even if he were to exist outside the observable universe.
God is all-powerful and created the universe and therefore His power and influence transcends human comprehension. We cannot hope to comprehend God’s power though logic or reason and must rely on faith for understanding.

- Nothing in nature requires God for an explanation or possible explanation
Prove that nothing requires God (This is probably one of the biggest sources of debate right here because I’m sure that you will answer “prove that a god is required”). Well after it’s all hashed out though logic eventually it will come down to something along the lines of “Faith in God allows one to understand how God is the explanation for everything.

Thanks a lot, now I feel dirty. :)

[ChiefOfAss]

No.. I did read your post, and thanks. It wasn't a slight. I just wanted to frame the debate differently than the parent thread.

And, no... I don't believe you. But, I do agree with you that destroying god to theiests is useless. They will always run home to momma with the whole "lie to myself" thing. I know the pattern well. Who cares?

But, doesn't it seem like to you that when ever a theist writes something to the effect of "well you can't prove he duddn't exist", there's this resignation that sets in saying, "well... you're right, I guess I can't absolutely prove there is no god". Then real BS starts, "I can't prove my dick isn't the reincarnation of Joseph Stalin, either.... blah, blah, blah...."

I'm offering liberation. It's easy! God doesn't exist... not because of absense of proof or because the question is stupid to begin with.... but because he can't exist.

For the curious theist, we can offer the same kind of certainty as in the knowledge that the Earth revolves around the sun. If they choose not to see, it's their problem. Isn't it finally time? It's not a matter of opinion anymore than equally "unknowables" as the consequences of falling off the Earth.

[z3n]

But, doesn't it seem like to you that when ever a theist writes something to the effect of "well you can't prove he duddn't exist", there's this resignation that sets in saying, "well... you're right, I guess I can't absolutely prove there is no god".
Ah, I think we have an important notion here. But see the answer to the classic theist challenge “Prove god doesn’t exist” is firmly stating that an atheist doesn’t have to prove anything so it doesn’t matter. The theist is making the positive claim so the burden of proof lies solely on the theist. That’s like me asking you to prove that reindeer can’t fly. Oh, you can’t prove that they can’t fly? Well then you must accept the possibility that they could. Silly huh?

I'm offering liberation. It's easy! God doesn't exist... not because of absense of proof or because the question is stupid to begin with.... but because he can't exist.
Well technically a god could exist although it’s very unlikely since all notions of god are illogical. Therefore no one can hold a rational notion of god.

And just to caveat, I think that the whole notion of “supernatural” is pretty much absurd to hold any notions of as well.

For the curious theist, we can offer the same kind of certainty as in the knowledge that the Earth revolves around the sun. If they choose not to see, it's their problem.
And that what it comes down to. Although some theists (mainly Christians) feel like they are holding onto their religion based on reason and logic they are really just fooling themselves. Christians can try to logically prove their religion or god all they want. But it still comes down to holding the basic notions on ‘faith’.

[Little Earth Stamper]

I'm curious, could it be that our souls could be like the people playing a video game? If I'm playing EverQuest, or whatever, and an orc comes by and lops my head off, I'll be dead. I will cease to have any influcence on the world. There is a logical conclusion that can be drawn if we cannot look outside the game'.

As a person must physically be alive to interact with the world, and must specifically have certain organs (ie the head) to interact with the world, it can be concluded that conciousness is simply a product of the digital body, and no element of Billy the Elf's conciousness exists outside the physical game world.

Additionally, it seems to me for a character to detect the outside influences which drive EverQuest while embedded in the game.

In this analogy, god would be the programmer.

I suppose this is just a varient of the "how do you know life isn't just a dream?" argument, but I don't understand how my theory, or the broader theory of illusionary life are logically inconsistant.

Many Atheists say that the gods cannot exist because their existence is logically imposible; So I'm curious as to how my scenario violates the rules of logic.

[ocmpoma]

Two variations:
Either our conciousness / sould does not continue on after we die in this 'illusionary life', in which case your theory is irrelevant;
Or, it does, in which case it is illogical for the same reasons that it would be without the 'illusion'.

[Little Earth Stamper]

Two variations:
Either our conciousness / sould does not continue on after we die in this 'illusionary life', in which case your theory is irrelevant;
Or, it does, in which case it is illogical for the same reasons that it would be without the 'illusion'.
There's a difference between "logically consistant" and "relevant". I'm not asking for an evaluation of the relevence of my theory, I'm asking for an evaluation of its logical consistancy, since this was the criteria offered up by ChiefOfAss:

I'm offering liberation. It's easy! God doesn't exist... not because of absense of proof or because the question is stupid to begin with.... but because he can't exist.
I believe I have demonstrated a situation in which he can exist, and this is all that I'm attempting to do.

[Philboid Studge]

It's easy! God doesn't exist...because he can't exist.
This is a form of question begging, I think. The atheist is then required to prove that He can't, and relies on evidence from the natural world to do so. But every concept of God that I know of is supernatural, so cataloging all the ways that such a being cannot be in the natural world as we know it is ultimately futile. There's at least two reasons why it's futile: 1) Theists will insist that their God defies the physical universe, therefore using evidence from that universe is a non-sequitir 2) Theists can even appeal to science to refute this by saying, "Well, some 95% of the universe is still a complete mystery to science (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/normal_matter_010202.html), therefore your attempts to use the known universe to prove that my God cannot exist is not only thin but arrogant."


I don’t normally like to play “devil’s advocate” ...
Horse hockey! Every time I turn around you're playing Jeebus' own Johnnie Cochran.

Thanks a lot, now I feel dirty.
I know how you feel. You make this whole devil's advocacy thing look so easy ...

[z3n]

I don’t normally like to play “devil’s advocate” ...
Horse hockey! Every time I turn around you're playing Jeebus' own Johnnie Cochran.

Thanks a lot, now I feel dirty.
I know how you feel. You make this whole devil's advocacy thing look so easy ...
Hey I said that I didn’t like it, not that I didn’t do it. :) Until I found this forum I never really had anybody to discuss this kind of thing with so I guess I must have gotten in the habit of trying to do both sides of a discussion with myself.

[Aristarchus]

God does not exist in the observable universe. God is supernatural and therefore outside of the known universe.
Which would mean that God is in a different system. And when something is in a completely different system, no claims can be made of whatsoever. We cannot even go so far as to say that contradiction does not exist and the dichotomy of God does or does not exist is not valid. The only logical postion to take for this definition of God is one of agnosticism. If we have no observation, we cannot make a claim, and do not know if a God exists in some realm. This scenerio would, of course, mean there is no God in this sytem, and seeing as how all we care about is a closed system, this would warrent atheism on any level that bears even slight practicality in mind.

Of course, if you change the definition of God to one that is an effectual force in this universe, the argument goes a little different.

[z3n]

The only logical postion to take for this definition of God is one of agnosticism. If we have no observation, we cannot make a claim, and do not know if a God exists in some realm.
Oh totally. In fact all things considered to be in the supernatural are really in the realm of of agnosticism, because humans can only gain knowledge of the natural world.

However the theist would state that knowledge can come from faith which is of course impossible, but that doesn’t keep theists from believing it.

[z3n]

Why has the internet got a main frame for? does it need it to Work? if so why? where is the main frame? Why does the enter button exsist? for what purpose?Why do we need transmitters for? or codes? what are pc"s used for? What happens if the plug is pulled out of the main frame, were is the energy or order of light going to come from? and what would happen to the enter button and transmitters and pc's will it still communicate? Would the screen still have light? where would everything be? Can someone tell me where is my spark gone, why is it so cold and dark in here? what happened to the light?where is the switch gone?
Dude, why don’t you go post this crap on http://www.uselessjunk.com or something.

[z3n]

Oh good come back did you make that up all by yourself?

The last thing I want to do is encourage you but eh, why not:

Why has the internet got a main frame for?
It doesn’t. The Internet is made of numerous computers worldwide all networked together.

does it need it to Work? if so why? where is the main frame?
There is no Internet main frame so all of these questions are moot.

Why does the enter button exsist? for what purpose?
To input a carriage return.

Why do we need transmitters for?
They are the basic components for all electronic circuits. So if we want electronic components then we need transmitters.

or codes?
I guessing that you mean software code, which is of course, how computer programs are written.

what are pc"s used for?
Well one of the many uses is so that you can connect to this forum and post silly questions apparently.

What happens if the plug is pulled out of the main frame, were is the energy or order of light going to come from?
I have no idea what your asking here. If you pull the plug on a main frame it isn’t getting energy (i.e. electricity) from anywhere because it would have been getting it from the plug.

and what would happen to the enter button and transmitters and pc's will it still communicate? Would the screen still have light?
Uh, no. Computers need electricity to work so if you pull their plug then there won’t be any communication going on.

where would everything be?
Well if you saved it then I would be on the hard drive, if you didn’t then I guess it sucks to be you.

Can someone tell me where is my spark gone, why is it so cold and dark in here? what happened to the light?where is the switch gone?
Okay, I really don’t have any idea what you’re talking about here.

I tell you what, if you want to be taking seriously on this forum, you might consider working on posting more coherent sentences and using much better grammar because you’re really coming across as a little kid.

Unless that’s what you are which would make sense.

[ocmpoma]

1, The MAIN FRAME of all life is God almighty

Quick, pull the plug!

[Tenspace]

God is the mainframe. Jesus is the Enter key. The Linksys Wireless Adapter is the Holy Spirit. C++ is the will of God. Dude, I am a Dell!

Got it. Do I get an award?

Tenspace

[Tenspace]

I will have to admit, spark is the most entertaining theist we've had here in awhile.

Ten

[ChiefOfAss]

Spark, you must be pulling our collective legs.

When you were poorly defending the belief in God, I kinda bought it. The depths of lunacy to which Christians decend can never be over estimated.

But, when you presumed to argue about the Internet, computers, etc.... with people who have forgotten more about computers than the sum total of the things you will ever know or think you know about anything... I knew you had to be kidding.

You are either mentally retarded, 10 years old, or very disiplined at staying in character.

Is there any chance that you are for real, functioning, teen-aged or older person who is not in the permanent custody of the state? Cuz, the things you write aren't just stupid, they sound crazy.

Dude... there is no Internet Mainframe. DO NOT ARGUE. That's not a matter of faith. It just the facts. If you had any idea how bizaarly wrong you are about all the computer garbage you just published on the Internet, you'd be so ashamed your ancestors would apologize.

"main directory of single lines this is not moot as stated" My god... get back in the cage. Does anyone know if there's a Special Olympics debate team?

If you are a real person who's not putting on an act, I'll tell you what. I'm going to do something I never do.

I'm going to pray to your God for you. If he has any pride at all, he'll "take you home" ASAP so you'll stop disgracing His creation.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to be cruel, but.... You are embarrasing God.

[Tenspace]

Dude... there is no Internet Mainframe. DO NOT ARGUE. That's not a matter of faith. It just the facts. If you had any idea how bizaarly wrong you are about all the computer garbage you just published on the Internet, you'd be so ashamed your ancestors would apologize.
Yes there is, and it's in Al Gore's basement. Him and Steve Case pull it out from time to time and admire their handiwork.

Ten

[z3n]

Ok now I'll till you what I am speaking about
The main Frame records all imputs of the network for it is the head of the network the main directory of single lines

1, The MAIN FRAME of all life is God almighty
2, The ENTER BUTTON is Lord Jesus Christ
3, The TRANSMITTER is Holy Spirit
4, The CODE IS will of God
5, The PC'S LINES is all of us
6, The DISCONNECTION isolation
7, Final DESTINATION darkness
with out the intention of God almighty there is no power inreturn no light, God is all light and we are sparks from him
Holy shit! I never put it together until now. God is the main frame; it all makes so much sense now. Thank-you spark for showing me the way.

[z3n]

your welcome
I was joking dumb ass.

[ChiefOfAss]

Well... what do you say, Sparky?

Are you retarded, playing a joke on us, or are you a ten year old that found the password to your jack-booted parents' copy of NetNanny?

Try answering a question instead just asking them.

If you answer any question, answer me this: Can you stand by what you wrote about Internet Mainframes and stuff?

[z3n]

I know
Sure you did. :rolleyes:

[schemanista]

C++ is the will of God.
There it is folks. The Problem of Evil in 6 words or less.

[SKS]

The existence of the internet is evidence of Gods non-existence.

For it is a modern day Tower of Babel. God allows the dissemination of atheistic information to spread rapidly over the net, and since the mid nineties (when the net first got popular) atheism has doubled in Europe and America, with no signs of slowing.

What is needed is a miracle, Biblical style, to show God exists. Because right now, the internet is serving as fuel for the growth of the fastest "belief" group on the planet: the non-believers.

Booya!

[Sir Sin-O-Lot]

Do you understand why God doesn't show himself to us? There is a reason why, an atheist being logical should understand it.
He's afraid to face his mistake?
Also, I edited the grammar in your post. Its free for the first time.

[bobfritzelpuff]

I GOT IT!

god doesn't show his face because...

HE DOESN'T EXIST!

Brilliant!

[ChiefOfAss]

Do you understand why God does n't show him self to us. There is a reason why, Atheist being lodgical should understand why.
Do you know why your parents argue?

Do you know why the pro-life'er group in your town doesn't want you around?

Did you know that if you lived in Texas just a couple years ago, they'd have executed you?

[Tenspace]

Do you understand why God does n't show him self to us. There is a reason why, Atheist being lodgical should understand why.
Why?

Tenspace

[Tenspace]

1) If your daugther or son respected your word and done your will without you inforcing yourself upon them would you trust them with your things?
Yes.

2) If your daugther or son did"nt respect your word or will Would you trust them with
your things?
Don't know... I don't have any experience with distrustful children.

Who would you love more out of the two?
Yes you would love them both but trust one but not the other.
Well, if I took the biblical point of view, I'd have them stoned to death by the community. Read Leviticus lately?

Thats Why we live in the age of Choice with the absance of God since the coming of Christ Jesus over 2000 years ago.

For God is the Light as we are his sparks of light, light transmits knowledge from one to another, this is called holy spirit, and by holy spirit we receive knowledge through Christ Jesus by God almighty like copying onto a tape or disk, But you need a code to enter this realm or internet if you like to call it.
The right frequency band must be reconcilied before tuning in or you will by pass finding the station, with no believe the station exsists.
Whatever you say, Sparky. Whatever you say.

Too bad you didn't answer any of my simple questions. You may be mysterious, but that doesn't make you interesting, especially if you can't hold a conversation.

Tenspace

[z3n]

You know making little snide quips just shows that you really can’t back up anything you’re saying when someone makes a counter-point to one of your posts.

You seem like you’re trying to come across as intelligent and philosophical but as soon as someone confronts you with a reasonable argument, you evade the response with posts that make you sound petty and spoiled.

[HeWhoAsks]

What Question are those? Name them for I have answered them to my understanding.
Here's a couple from Does God Exist? » What would be sufficient evidence for the existence of god?
I will talk about senses, impulses, desires,

SENSES BEING THE ACTION DUE TO BEING THE BACK GROUND . . . .BY FILLING OUR MIND WITH EXTERNAL LIGHT OR IMPULSES FORMING KNOWLEDGE WILL CREATE INDULGENCE IN ONE FORM OR ANTHER, DUE TO EXTERNAL MASSES OF REASONING OF INTENTIONS OCCURING WITHIN OUR MIND.
I have two serious questions:

1. How do you tell the difference between making sense and nonsense?

2. How do you tell whether you're making something up or whether it actually conforms to reality?
The other problem is that answering something to your understanding is not the point of communication. Answering something to *another's* understanding is the point of communicatiing. Why bother communicating if it's only to your understanding? Everyone here is telling you that YOU MAKE NO SENSE %99 of the time. You have to be more clear in what you write. Don't make up words. Don't use real words with definitions that only you understand. Make sure a sentence makes sense according to a plain, standard reading of it. Etc.

If I believed in God, I'd pray that you change how you post to this board.

[gmanbc]

So I guess you either didn’t believe me or didn’t read my response to you in the other thread (http://ravingatheist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=18609#p18609) when I stated that logically destroying god does very little since all theists will just eventually appeal to faith.

I don’t normally like to play “devil’s advocate” but let me try briefly to see if I can illustrate my point.

- There's no place for god to be.
- God is not in the sky.
- God is not in the ground.
- God is nowhere in the observable universe
God does not exist in the observable universe. God is supernatural and therefore outside of the known universe.

- There is no means by which a god or gods could apply influence in this world even if he were to exist outside the observable universe.
God is all-powerful and created the universe and therefore His power and influence transcends human comprehension. We cannot hope to comprehend God’s power though logic or reason and must rely on faith for understanding.

- Nothing in nature requires God for an explanation or possible explanation
Prove that nothing requires God (This is probably one of the biggest sources of debate right here because I’m sure that you will answer “prove that a god is required”). Well after it’s all hashed out though logic eventually it will come down to something along the lines of “Faith in God allows one to understand how God is the explanation for everything.

Thanks a lot, now I feel dirty. :)
I think you can prove that their is no God or at least the bible isn't his word. The problem isn't proving it. The problem is getting a Christian to listen. It's kind of like proving the earth is round. Even with all the evidence you still have people that thinks it's flat and offer scientific evidence to support their theory (see the Flat Earth Society). Proving their is no God is simple really. If there was a God then their would be evidence of him. Not stories written by medieval man but proof positive that he exists in some ancient artifact, book or religion. The bible does not contain one concrete piece of evidence! Proof could have easily been given to us without God having to show his face.

For example: The Genesis story of creation could have included the nine planets in our solar system instead of the Earth, two lights and the stars. The person who wrote that chapter was totally unaware of the round earth and the immensity of the universe. He didn’t know about bacteria, the atom, or even dinosaurs, yet we are to believe the author got his information from the creator of all things. That in itself is proof, isn't it?

I can see the religionist stating the fact that we exist is the proof I am looking for but evolution can be used to explain this. Paul Davies, a physicist that talks about the possibility of God in several of his books, says that the odds of there not being a God and life just spontaneously happening is all but impossible. He said the number would wrap around the world several times against it. But then he says if you can believe in an eternal God then why couldn’t you also believe in eternal space and eternal time. If time and space are eternal then all things will happen no matter what the odds and life would have happened.

At the very least, I think we can prove that "God" has not interacted with any religions and that they are all full of crap! Name on financial institution that has made more money than the church! The root of all evil drives the church and this is supposedly Gods will.

If you are all willing to pitch in 10 percent of your paychecks and send them to me for the next 10 years I will provide you with proof of God :)


Lee
gmanbc

[FiberglassDolphin]

The spiritual world (or any other idea of alternate realities and parallel universes) is purely fabricated from the minds of humans.

If science can't explain something, assuming something of the spiritual realm (like God) is responsible is like assuming that an invisible unicorn is responsible.

The only difference is that the spiritual realm explaining things is more popular and traditional.

I prefer believing that unicorns cause everything because unicorns are pretty. :)

[ChiefOfAss]

Just for the record. I want to be clear that I am in no way suggesting that the proof I offer is supposed to convert those afflicted with belief.

The point is... liberation. For all those atheists and those agnosticators who feel even the faintest doubt, we can all stop BS'ing ourselves. He doesn't exist, it's for sure, and you needn't reserve an afternoon to meet God should he appear. In fact, if the existence of God were on trial in a Christian American court of law, the case would have been dismissed.

Yeah! The time honored, "Well... you can't prove he doesn't exist" no longer serves as the religionists' best, last hope of not looking stupid.

[z3n]

If there was a God then their would be evidence of him.
Careful because all thiests will most likely claim that they have various forms of evidence and proof. They will all be invalid of course (at least they have been so far) but convincing the theist of that, well that is the crux of the issue.

He said the number would wrap around the world several times against it.
That’s just not taking into account the law of truly large number (http://skepdic.com/lawofnumbers.html) which states that: with a large enough sample many odd coincidences are likely to happen.

The odds of life evolving in this universe was exactly 100%.

[Zen Master]

- There's no place for god to be.
God is being.

- God is nowhere in the observable universe
God is everywhere. You're looking at God right now, listening to God, feeling God.

[gmanbc]

God is everywhere? If he is everywhere then he watches millions of children starve to death, be molested and killed and yet he does nothing. To believe God is everywhere is to believe that God doesn’t care. Of course why should he care about you or me out of the whole universe? Read the bible with an open mind and you will see that God and Santa Clause are one in the same.

Lee
gmanbc

[Zen Master]

God is everywhere? If he is everywhere then he watches millions of children starve to death, be molested and killed and yet he does nothing. To believe God is everywhere is to believe that God doesn’t care. Of course why should he care about you or me out of the whole universe?
God is the starving child. God is all.

Read the bible with an open mind and you will see that God and Santa Clause are one in the same.
The personal God is exactly like Santa. Santa is a metaphor for the relationship between the parent and the child. The personal God is a metaphor for the impersonal supreme reality, and our relationship to it.

[Another brick in the wall]

"God is all?" That doesn't make any sense. An apple can't be an orange at the same time.

[Zen Master]

"God is all?" That doesn't make any sense. An apple can't be an orange at the same time.
Stop thinking of God as an entity that exists somewhere "out there". Instead, think of God as a word, and that word refers to the All. It makes perfect sense. God is everywhere, and something can't be everywhere unless it's everything.

[Another brick in the wall]

If god isn't a physical entity, he's an abstract concept, an idea. That's the same as not existing.

[Zen Master]

If god isn't a physical entity, he's an abstract concept, an idea.
But it refers to something very real, the impersoanl, supreme reality, or ground of being. That's what is called the God beyond "God".

[Another brick in the wall]

In your mind, is god just a synonym for "everything?" If so, it isn't a very useful word. We already have words for "everywhere" and "everything."

[baric]

In your mind, is god just a synonym for "everything?" If so, it isn't a very useful word. We already have words for "everywhere" and "everything."
LOL, but his is only 3 letters and 1 syllable.

[Zen Master]

In your mind, is god just a synonym for "everything?" If so, it isn't a very useful word. We already have words for "everywhere" and "everything."
Yes. There are many words for it. God, Brahman, Tao, cosmos, existence, all, universe, reality, truth, ect.

[Another brick in the wall]

I thought "Tao" meant "way." Brahman is the creator being in Hinduism. Existence is a property of matter (although a trivial one, if something is matter it must exist). None of these words are related.

[Zen Master]

I thought "Tao" meant "way."
It does mean "way", and it is everything.

Brahman is the creator being in Hinduism.
No, Brahma is the creator. Brahman is everything, the supreme reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

Existence is a property of matter (although a trivial one, if something is matter it must exist). None of these words are related.
"Existence" also refers to all that exists. See dictionary.com.

[Another brick in the wall]

OK, point taken. Still, I hear the term "supreme reality" thrown around a lot lately. What makes it more supreme than this reality?

[Zen Master]

OK, point taken. Still, I hear the term "supreme reality" thrown around a lot lately. What makes it more supreme than this reality?
"This reality" is what you perceive, but supreme reality is the truth, which transcends perception. It's the absolute, true nature of things.

[Another brick in the wall]

The absolute true nature of things cannot be perceived by humans? What idiot came up with that idea?

[Zen Master]

The absolute true nature of things cannot be perceived by humans?
No, it can't. This is philosophy 101. Ever heard of the "brain in a vat"?

[Another brick in the wall]

Yes, but if there is a reality that we are unable to perceive, it's the same as though it doesn't exist. It's like saying there are these little blue gnomes everywhere, but they disappear whenever people are around.

[Zen Master]

Yes, but if there is a reality that we are unable to perceive, it's the same as though it doesn't exist. It's like saying there are these little blue gnomes everywhere, but they disappear whenever people are around.
It's like this. You have an image in your mind of what reality is, but that image is not necessarily an accurate representation of reality. Supreme reality is that unknown reality which transcends perception. It's everything, but you can only see it's surface, not it's absolute, true nature.

[Another brick in the wall]

This sounds a lot like Plato's forms. The image in my mind of the world may not be accurate, but I can cross-check against others' perceptions. The more people that see something, the more you can be sure of it. Philosophically speaking, it's impossible to prove we're not living in a Matrix-like dream world, but if we were, there's not much we could do about it.

[Zen Master]

This sounds a lot like Plato's forms. The image in my mind of the world may not be accurate, but I can cross-check against others' perceptions.
How do you know they're really "others"? You only see them through the image in your mind.

[Another brick in the wall]

I don't. No one really knows anything for sure. Science is based upon our sometimes crude and unreliable measurement of the general trends we see. That's the best that can be done. How can you demonstrate the truth of all of your claims? (Note: I used the word "demonstrate" instead of "prove" because proof only matters in mathematics and alcohol)

[Zen Master]

I don't. No one really knows anything for sure.
Exactly. And God is word that refers to that thing which no one knows, supreme reality.

[Another brick in the wall]

What's the point of discussing something that's impossible to verify? Your concept of god is useless for explaining any aspect of the universe. In order for a hypothesis to be useful, it has to be testable.

[Zen Master]

What's the point of discussing something that's impossible to verify? Your concept of god is useless for explaining any aspect of the universe. In order for a hypothesis to be useful, it has to be testable.
God isn't an explantion, God is the mystery.

[Zen Master]

And the mystery is most certainly useful. It's the seed of all art, science, and religion.

"The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery--even if mixed with fear-that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms-it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."
--Albert Einstein

[Another brick in the wall]

I like mysteries as much as the next guy, and I can understand how a scientist could really appreciate the beauty and complexity of nature, but the answer to the mystery is what gets things going. Imagine if Edison had been content only to ponder the mystery if light through electricity were possible. Our desire to solve mysteries is what advances our species.

[Zen Master]

I like mysteries as much as the next guy, and I can understand how a scientist could really appreciate the beauty and complexity of nature, but the answer to the mystery is what gets things going. Imagine if Edison had been content only to ponder the mystery if light through electricity were possible. Our desire to solve mysteries is what advances our species.
We can only solve mysteries on the surface, but the absolute, supreme reality is an infinite mystery. You said yourself that we can't really know anything.

[Aristarchus]

God isn't an explantion, God is the mystery.
Zen Master, what benefits do you believe are aquirable in becoming educated in questions that have no answers? Is it a mark of weak philosophical character to be oblivious of the fact that there is much to which we can be no better than oblivious of?

[Another brick in the wall]

We can't know anything with absolute certainty, but our imperfect understanding has certainly changed our lives. Without it, we wouldn't be sitting here typing to each other.

[gmanbc]

I like mysteries as much as the next guy, and I can understand how a scientist could really appreciate the beauty and complexity of nature, but the answer to the mystery is what gets things going. Imagine if Edison had been content only to ponder the mystery if light through electricity were possible. Our desire to solve mysteries is what advances our species.
We can only solve mysteries on the surface, but the absolute, supreme reality is an infinite mystery. You said yourself that we can't really know anything.
Where do you go to read about your God? What you are saying isn't in the Bible! The Bible actually tells of a God that can be seen and has been seen. Heck, the Israelites even made him a home which he resided at for a short time. You are either making this up as you go along or just trying to sound intelligence with a bunch of hogwash you learned in a psychology class. Either way I am not impressed. Show us where it is written and then back it up with fact. That would impress me!

Lee
Gmanbc

[Zen Master]

I like mysteries as much as the next guy, and I can understand how a scientist could really appreciate the beauty and complexity of nature, but the answer to the mystery is what gets things going. Imagine if Edison had been content only to ponder the mystery if light through electricity were possible. Our desire to solve mysteries is what advances our species.
We can only solve mysteries on the surface, but the absolute, supreme reality is an infinite mystery. You said yourself that we can't really know anything.
Where do you go to read about your God?
Everywhere. Nature, science books, philosophy books, the sacred texts of all the worlds religions.

What you are saying isn't in the Bible! The Bible actually tells of a God that can be seen and has been seen.
John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time.

Exodus 33:20
Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Heck, the Israelites even made him a home which he resided at for a short time.
1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.

[gmanbc]

Everywhere. Nature, science books, philosophy books, the sacred texts of all the worlds religions.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time.

Exodus 33:20
Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
You are obviously picking and choosing what versus you want to quote. The Bible also says:

Genesis 18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham while he camped near the oak grove belonging to Mamre.

Genesis 32:30 Daniel called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared”.

Exodus 33:11 Inside the tent of meeting, the Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Joshua son of Nun was also in the tent)

Isaiah 6:5 Then I said, “My destruction is sealed, for I am a sinful man and a member of a sinful race. Yet I have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.

Oh by the way, as I recall Abraham had a physical wrestling match with God where he kicked God's ass. Of course God got in the last lick and knocked his hip out of joint but no belts were exchanged as the match was not sponsored by the WWF

1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
And it says:

1 Kings 6:13 I will live among the people of Israel and never forsake my people.
1 Kings 8:11 The priest could not continue their work because the glorious presence of the Lord filled the Temple.
Habakkuk 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

If you are trying to make yourself look like a religious scholar, please stop as it is embarrassing...

Try to read the Bible with your eyes opened. If you did you would find that it is the worse written book of all time. Trying to use the Bible to make a point is like getting marriage counseling from Ex-president Clinton.

I have read the Koran as well so fill free to quote it.

What say you?

Lee
gmanbc

[Zen Master]

Everywhere. Nature, science books, philosophy books, the sacred texts of all the worlds religions.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time.

Exodus 33:20
Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
You are obviously picking and choosing what versus you want to quote. The Bible also says:

Genesis 18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham while he camped near the oak grove belonging to Mamre.

Genesis 32:30 Daniel called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared”.

Exodus 33:11 Inside the tent of meeting, the Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Joshua son of Nun was also in the tent)

Isaiah 6:5 Then I said, “My destruction is sealed, for I am a sinful man and a member of a sinful race. Yet I have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.
If you read the original Hebrew, it's Elohim, which is the sons of God, or angels, not God himself that is being seen. You can see the universe, but it's true nature is forever hidden from you.

Oh by the way, as I recall Abraham had a physical wrestling match with God where he kicked God's ass. Of course God got in the last lick and knocked his hip out of joint but no belts were exchanged as the match was not sponsored by the WWF
That's called a metaphor.

1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!

Acts 17:24
The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
And it says:

1 Kings 6:13 I will live among the people of Israel and never forsake my people.
1 Kings 8:11 The priest could not continue their work because the glorious presence of the Lord filled the Temple.
Habakkuk 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.
Yes, God was among them in the temple, God is everywhere among everything. But God cannot be contained in a temple.

Psalm 139:7-8
Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.

Jeremiah 23:23-24
"Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD, "And not a God afar off? Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?" says the LORD; "Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.

Acts 17:28
For in [God] we live, and move, and have our being

If you are trying to make yourself look like a religious scholar, please stop as it is embarrassing...
Look, I'm not here to try and impress you, or convert you, or anything like that. I just like talking about these things.

Try to read the Bible with your eyes opened. If you did you would find that it is the worse written book of all time. Trying to use the Bible to make a point is like getting marriage counseling from Ex-president Clinton.
I only quoted the Bible because you asked me too. My "beliefs" are not based on what the Bible says, it just happens to agree with me on certain points.

I have read the Koran as well so fill free to quote it.

What say you?
The Qur'an also says that God is omnipresent, that he is before and after all things, with us wherever we go:

"He is the First and the Last, the Evident and the Immanent: and He has full knowledge of all things. He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and is moreover firmly established on the Throne (of Authority). He knows what enters within the earth and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah sees well all that ye do."
--Qur'an 57:3-4

[gmanbc]

Don't worry about me, I just like a good argument ;) But I disagree with you on several points.

You state, "If I read it in the Original Hebrew". Can you do that? Or are you just quoting what you have heard.

The Story of Abraham wrestling with God isn't represented by the Bible as a metaphor. God and Abraham have a discussion after the wrestling match and the fact that God knocks his hip out of place totally contradicts your claim of it being a metaphor.

The comment about God not being contained in a Temple has no bearing on the fact that he was there and not everywhere else at the same time. There are several places in the Bible where God shows he isn't aware of everything going on around him and hence not everywhere. God didn't see Adam and Eve eat from the tree of life and only found out later after finding them trying to cover their nakedness. Cain and Able is another great example of him coming down and finding a mess.

I like to argue using the Bible because it is suppose to be God's word and without it and the many religious books like it how would one even know about religion. Can you name another book that is as poorly written as the Bible other than the koran?

Lee
gmanbc

[Zen Master]

You state, "If I read it in the Original Hebrew". Can you do that? Or are you just quoting what you have heard.
Yes, I have a Hebrew Bible and lexicon.

The Story of Abraham wrestling with God isn't represented by the Bible as a metaphor.
Well, it's a metaphor, almost the entire Bible is metaphor. Do you know what a metaphor is, exactly? A lot of people don't really understand what a metaphor is.

The comment about God not being contained in a Temple has no bearing on the fact that he was there and not everywhere else at the same time.
It doesn't say that God was in the temple and no where else. God is everywhere, and the Bible says that.

There are several places in the Bible where God shows he isn't aware of everything going on around him and hence not everywhere.
God didn't see Adam and Eve eat from the tree of life and only found out later after finding them trying to cover their nakedness. Cain and Able is another great example of him coming down and finding a mess.
That's elohim, the sons of God, or angels.

I like to argue using the Bible because it is suppose to be God's word and without it and the many religious books like it how would one even know about religion.
I don't need any book to tell me about God.

[Zen Master]

THOU ART THAT
Transforming Religious Metaphor
Joseph Campbell

CHAPTER 1
METAPHOR AND RELIGIOUS MYSTERY

The Meaning of Myth

Let me begin by explaining the history of my impulse to place metaphor at the center of our exploration of Western spirituality.

When the first volume of my Historical Atlas of World Mythology, The Way of the Animal Powers7 came out, the publishers sent me on a publicity tour. This is the worst kind of all possible tours because you move unwillingly to those disc jockeys and newspaper people, themselves unwilling to read the book they are supposed to talk to you about, in order to give it public visibility.

The first question I would be asked was always, “What is a myth?” That is a fine beginning for an intelligent conversation. In one city, however, I walked into a broadcasting station for a live half-hour program where the interviewer was a young, smart-looking man who immediately warned me, “I’m tough, I put it right to you. I’ve studied law.”

The red light went on and he began argumentatively, “The word ‘myth,’ means ‘a lie.’ Myth is a lie.”

So I replied with my definition of myth. “No, myth is not a lie. A whole mythology is an organization of symbolic images and narratives, metaphorical of the possibilities of human experience and the fulfillment of a given culture at a given time.”

“It’s a lie,” he countered.

“It’s a metaphor.”

‘It’s a lie.”

This went on for about twenty minutes. Around four or five minutes before the end of the program, I realized that this interviewer did not really know what a metaphor was. I decided to treat him as he was treating me.

“No,” I said, “I tell you it’s metaphorical. You give me an example of a metaphor.”

He replied, “You give me an example.”

I resisted, “No, I’m asking the question this time.” I had not taught school for thirty years for nothing. “And I want you to give me an example of a metaphor.”

The interviewer was utterly baffled and even went so far as to say, “Let’s get in touch with some school teacher.” Finally, with something like a minute and a half to go, he rose to the occasion and said, “I’ll try. My friend John runs very fast. People say he runs like a deer. There’s a metaphor.”

As the last seconds of the interview ticked off, I replied, “That is not the metaphor. The metaphor is: John is a deer.”

He shot back, “That’s a lie.”

“No,” I said, “That is a metaphor.”

And the show ended. What does that incident suggest about our common understanding of metaphor?

It made me reflect that half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.
---

You can read more here: http://www.newworldlibrary.com/client/client_pages/samplechapters/thouartthat.cfm

[gmanbc]

Yea, I know what a metaphor is but once again the Bible makes no such claims and the fact that you are contradicts what has been taught for thousands of years. Now that science has shown the world to be round and that unicorns never existed we have people like yourself using convenient words like metaphor to explain away anything that can't be explained.

You state that you don't need a book to tell you about God but it sounds like to me that you have been doing some reading? The fact is if you were born and raised on an island where your parents worshipped the sun you would be telling me that you don't need a book to tell you about he sun.

What say you?

Lee
gmanbc

[Zen Master]

Yea, I know what a metaphor is but once again the Bible makes no such claims and the fact that you are contradicts what has been taught for thousands of years. Now that science has shown the world to be round and that unicorns never existed we have people like yourself using convenient words like metaphor to explain away anything that can't be explained.
There has always been a mystic/esoteric tradition among the Abrahamic religions that interpreted the scriptures as metaphors and allegories. In Judaism and Christianity they are Gnostics and Kaballists, and in Islam they are Sufis. Everything in the Bible is a metaphor, the Garden of Eden, the exodus, the flood, jonah and the whale, the virgin birth, the ressurection, the ascension, the rapture, the second coming, the end of the world, heaven and hell; those are all metaphors.

You state that you don't need a book to tell you about God but it sounds like to me that you have been doing some reading?
Yes?

The fact is if you were born and raised on an island where your parents worshipped the sun you would be telling me that you don't need a book to tell you about he sun.
I wasn't raised with these "beliefs", if that's what you're suggesting. I was raised as a conservitive Christian, then I became a liberal Christian, then a deist, then an atheist, then a Buddhist/Taoist, and now I'm a pantheist/mystic that sees truth in all religions.

[gmanbc]

This is my last reply for the night as I am stationed in Korea and it's my bedtime :rolleyes:

The fact that you believe in God is all based on books. Ones that you stated you didn't need? Any rate, I have studied a little myself and to say that everything in the Bible is a metaphor is at best crap. Have you read the books of Joshua and Judges where the Israelites commit genocide killing entire civilizations? What kind of metaphor is that?

I can believe that a higher being created life but I can also believe that it happened all by itself as there is enough evidence to support either theory. I don't believe in a Heaven or Hell and I don't think that God left any books for us to worship from. But if he did we haven't found them yet...

Lee
gmanbc

[Philboid Studge]

God is everywhere. God is nowhere. Is there really any difference between these statements?

Put another way, what practical good does it do to replace the word "existence" with the word "God"? You dodged this question earlier by saying there are many names for existence (or God). But what's the point of a thicker thesaurus? I happen to agree with just about everything you've written. I just don't see what "God" has to do with it.

P.S. Supreme reality is that unknown reality which transcends perception.
Isn't perception "God"?

[Zen Master]

This is my last reply for the night as I am stationed in Korea and it's my bedtime :rolleyes:

The fact that you believe in God is all based on books. Ones that you stated you didn't need? Any rate, I have studied a little myself and to say that everything in the Bible is a metaphor is at best crap. Have you read the books of Joshua and Judges where the Israelites commit genocide killing entire civilizations? What kind of metaphor is that?
The Bible has some history in it, but most of it is mythology, and mythology is metaphorical.

I can believe that a higher being created life but I can also believe that it happened all by itself as there is enough evidence to support either theory.
They're the same thing. What theists call God, the ground of being, atheists consider to be an impersonal, blind energy that's a part of the universe. The contradiction between atheism and theism is, for the most part, a matter of semantics.

I don't believe in a Heaven or Hell
I don't believe in a literal Heaven or Hell either.

and I don't think that God left any books for us to worship from.
Neither do I.

[gmanbc]

The Bible has some history in it, but most of it is mythology, and mythology is metaphorical.
This quote totally contradicts your earlier quote of everything in the bible being a metaphor. I guess you meant almost everything???

You are definitely a new kind of God promoter. You seem to be up on religion so you will have to agree that most religions especially Christianity will disagree with you. I try to keep it simple. There is no God or… there is a God/Creator but he doesn’t interact with us for what ever reason. My guess, based off the laws of science, is if we were indeed created by a higher being, that being is dead.

Lee
gmanbc

[Tenspace]

And the mystery is most certainly useful. It's the seed of all art, science, and religion.

"The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery--even if mixed with fear-that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms-it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."
--Albert Einstein
That's Einstein talking about mysteries, not God. He did not associate God to mean Mystery. His last sentence is actually a jab at organized religion.

Tenspace

[Another brick in the wall]

Even if he was talking about god, it's an argument from a authority and therefore invalid.

[gmanbc]

Good points but I still am curios where this guy is coming from? If he is not a member of one of the organized religions then he seems to be trying to create his own. I wonder if he will want 10 percent?

Actually, I don't think he is sure on any single point he brings up. He tells me he doesn't need a book to tell him about God but admits that he continues to read books about God and quoting articles from them. Then he says the entire Bible is just a metaphor and then says some of it is history. He is so wishy washy I think he could have been one of the authors of bible itself...

There are three ways I see that you can learn about God. You can listen to others, You can read a religous book, or from voices within your head. Listning to others will get you in trouble and cost you 10 percent. Reading the bible would make athiest out of any Christian with an open mind and will cost you 10 percent. And if you're hearing voices then I would like to remind you that they were telling you to send me 10 percent ;)

Lee
gmanbc

[Tenspace]

There are three ways I see that you can learn about God. You can listen to others, You can read a religous book, or from voices within your head. Listning to others will get you in trouble and cost you 10 percent. Reading the bible would make athiest out of any Christian with an open mind and will cost you 10 percent. And if you're hearing voices then I would like to remind you that they were telling you to send me 10 percent ;)

Lee
gmanbc
And, there's only one set of books about God; everything else is just interpretation.

If you're hearing voices, I would suggest visiting a neurologist and investigating Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. Only then can you send your 10 percent to gman. :)

Tenspace

[Zen Master]

The Bible has some history in it, but most of it is mythology, and mythology is metaphorical.
This quote totally contradicts your earlier quote of everything in the bible being a metaphor. I guess you meant almost everything???
I originally said in this thread that almost the entire Bible is a metaphor.

You are definitely a new kind of God promoter. You seem to be up on religion so you will have to agree that most religions especially Christianity will disagree with you.
Well, the official doctrines of the Western orthodox religions would disagree with me, but their religious texts do not disagree. And there have always been esoteric traditions (ie. Gnosticsm, Sufism, ect) among the western religions that interpret God and mythology the way that I do.

I try to keep it simple. There is no God or… there is a God/Creator but he doesn’t interact with us for what ever reason. My guess, based off the laws of science, is if we were indeed created by a higher being, that being is dead.
The universe is the greater being that created you, and it's still very much alive and interacting with us.

[Zen Master]

Good points but I still am curios where this guy is coming from? If he is not a member of one of the organized religions then he seems to be trying to create his own. I wonder if he will want 10 percent?
I don't believe in organized religion, and I'm certainly not trying to create one.

He tells me he doesn't need a book to tell him about God but admits that he continues to read books about God and quoting articles from them.
I don't need books because I can look to nature, and I can look within myself to learn about God. The first person to write a book about God had no book to tell him anything.

[gmanbc]

I originally said in this thread that almost the entire Bible is a metaphor.
This is your exact quote: "There has always been a mystic/esoteric tradition among the Abrahamic religions that interpreted the scriptures as metaphors and allegories. In Judaism and Christianity they are Gnostics and Kaballists, and in Islam they are Sufis. Everything in the Bible is a metaphor, the Garden of Eden, the exodus, the flood, jonah and the whale, the virgin birth, the ressurection, the ascension, the rapture, the second coming, the end of the world, heaven and hell; those are all metaphors."

Well, the official doctrines of the Western orthodox religions would disagree with me, but their religious texts do not disagree. And there have always been esoteric traditions (ie. Gnosticsm, Sufism, ect) among the western religions that interpret God and mythology the way that I do.
This can only work for you if you are picking and choosing which versus you want to quote but as a whole the Bible disagrees with you. As far as Gnosticism and Sufism go, both these religions take many forms and have different sects with different beliefs. The one thing that these religions and all of the others have in common is they offer no proof of a divine creator and instead they give you a medieval point of view that is said to come from God.

The universe is the greater being that created you, and it's still very much alive and interacting with us.
How profound… The universe is a being? Didn’t I see something like that at the end of the movie Men in Black? I don’t think the universe is no more alive as a being than the computer I am interacting with. And just like my computer will break down, someday the universe will cease to exist because Thermodynamics says nothing last forever. Have you ever heard of the physicist, Paul Davies? He has written allot of good books that touch on Science and God. I think you would enjoy his books.

Lee
gmanbc

[Zen Master]

I originally said in this thread that almost the entire Bible is a metaphor.
This is your exact quote: "There has always been a mystic/esoteric tradition among the Abrahamic religions that interpreted the scriptures as metaphors and allegories. In Judaism and Christianity they are Gnostics and Kaballists, and in Islam they are Sufis. Everything in the Bible is a metaphor, the Garden of Eden, the exodus, the flood, jonah and the whale, the virgin birth, the ressurection, the ascension, the rapture, the second coming, the end of the world, heaven and hell; those are all metaphors."
http://ravingatheist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=22546#p22546

Well, it's a metaphor, almost the entire Bible is metaphor.
Well, the official doctrines of the Western orthodox religions would disagree with me, but their religious texts do not disagree. And there have always been esoteric traditions (ie. Gnosticsm, Sufism, ect) among the western religions that interpret God and mythology the way that I do.
This can only work for you if you are picking and choosing which versus you want to quote but as a whole the Bible disagrees with you.
No it doesn't.

As far as Gnosticism and Sufism go, both these religions take many forms and have different sects with different beliefs.
There are several different religious traditions in Christianity that are today called "Gnosticism", but they all shared something in common: they all interpreted their mythology metaphorically.

The one thing that these religions and all of the others have in common is they offer no proof of a divine creator and instead they give you a medieval point of view that is said to come from God.
That's not true, in Sufism and Gnosticism, God is existence.

The universe is the greater being that created you, and it's still very much alive and interacting with us.
How profound… The universe is a being?
Yes, the universe is one interconnected whole.

I don’t think the universe is no more alive as a being than the computer I am interacting with.
Your computer is very much alive and conscious, everything is. The universe is moving about on it's own with no outside cause, and it reacts to itself. That's what consciousness and life is, action and reaction. Now there are different levels of consciousness, a rock is not as advanced as you, but when you strike it, it does react. The difference between you and the rock is that you react in a far more complicated way.

If you have time, listen to this lecture by Alan Watts:

http://www.growthandhealing.com/talks_music/talks/watts/Alan%20Watts%20-%20Myth%20of%20Myself.mp3


And just like my computer will break down, someday the universe will cease to exist because Thermodynamics says nothing last forever.
In the new cyclic model of the universe (not to be confused with the old "big bang/big crunch" model), time has no beginning or end:

http://wwwphy.princeton.edu/~steinh/
http://feynman.princeton.edu/~steinh/cyclintro/
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000C55B5-C29B-1CDA-B4A8809EC588EEDF
http://www.actionbioscience.org/newfrontiers/steinhardt.html
http://online.itp.ucsb.edu/online/colloq/turok2/

[Tenspace]

Your computer is very much alive and conscious, everything is.
Wow, I've never met a psychist (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=psychism) before. :)

Ten

[HeWhoAsks]

Your computer is very much alive and conscious, everything is.
*Words must mean something,* you just can't make a word mean whatever you'd like it to. Look up the word *alive* and *conscious* in the dictionary. Those words actually mean something, something that is intended to distinguish those things that the word *alive* applies to from other things that don't share some characteristics. Things that are alive and conscious have some characteristics that a computer doesn't have. That's the whole point of having those words. Unless you want to make up a fantasy world that sounds profound but has no relation to reality.

[Zen Master]

Your computer is very much alive and conscious, everything is.
Wow, I've never met a psychist (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=psychism) before. :)

Ten
I've never heard of "psychism" before.

[Zen Master]

Your computer is very much alive and conscious, everything is.
*Words must mean something,* you just can't make a word mean whatever you'd like it to. Look up the word *alive* and *conscious* in the dictionary. Those words actually mean something, something that is intended to distinguish those things that the word *alive* applies to from other things that don't share some characteristics. Things that are alive and conscious have some characteristics that a computer doesn't have. That's the whole point of having those words. Unless you want to make up a fantasy world that sounds profound but has no relation to reality.
I know what the dictionary says, and it doesn't contradict me. Life is action or animation, and consciousness is awareness of ones environment. How do we know something's aware? It reacts. Life and consciousness = action and reaction.

[Rhinoqulous]

That's not true, in Sufism and Gnosticism, God is existence.
I don't know about Sufism, but this is certainly not true of Gnosticism. Gnostics believe that matter, and the whole material universe, is evil, in that it causes a separation from the Transcendent Spiritual Reality. So for Gnostics, God is NOT existence, God is completely separate and distinct from our material existence.

Rhinoq

[Zen Master]

That's not true, in Sufism and Gnosticism, God is existence.
I don't know about Sufism, but this is certainly not true of Gnosticism. Gnostics believe that matter, and the whole material universe, is evil, in that it causes a separation from the Transcendent Spiritual Reality. So for Gnostics, God is NOT existence, God is completely separate and distinct from our material existence.

Rhinoq
Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
--Gospel of Thomas 77

His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?" "It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
--Gospel of Thomas 113

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and whoever knows himself shall find it. And, having found it, you shall know yourselves that you are sons and heirs of the Father, the Almighty, and shall know yourselves that you are in God and God in you. And you are the City of God."
--Jesus, Oxyrhynchus manuscript

[Tenspace]

Your computer is very much alive and conscious, everything is.
Wow, I've never met a psychist (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=psychism) before. :)

Ten
I've never heard of "psychism" before.
It's a bit like the inverse of solipsism. A psychist is one who believes that everything in the universe embodies consciousness and intelligence.

Ten

[HeWhoAsks]

Your computer is very much alive and conscious, everything is.
*Words must mean something,* you just can't make a word mean whatever you'd like it to. Look up the word *alive* and *conscious* in the dictionary. Those words actually mean something, something that is intended to distinguish those things that the word *alive* applies to from other things that don't share some characteristics. Things that are alive and conscious have some characteristics that a computer doesn't have. That's the whole point of having those words. Unless you want to make up a fantasy world that sounds profound but has no relation to reality.
I know what the dictionary says, and it doesn't contradict me. Life is action or animation, and consciousness is awareness of ones environment. How do we know something's aware? It reacts. Life and consciousness = action and reaction.
This is too simple: Wenster's New World dictionary (1960) says "alive" is that which has life, and "life" is "1. that property of plants and animals which makes it possible for them to take in food, get energy from it, grow, adapt themselves to their surroundings, and reproduce their kind." Talk to biologists and they will tell you something very similar.

Action is part of life, but everything that is active is not alive. Conscious things react, but not everything that reacts is conscious.

So sorry, but computers aren't alive. The larger point is that if you want to communicate, you have to understand what words mean. If you want to just play with words and sound profound, then carry on.

[Another brick in the wall]

A rock is not alive or conscious. There, I've shattered your argument.

[Zen Master]

*Words must mean something,* you just can't make a word mean whatever you'd like it to. Look up the word *alive* and *conscious* in the dictionary. Those words actually mean something, something that is intended to distinguish those things that the word *alive* applies to from other things that don't share some characteristics. Things that are alive and conscious have some characteristics that a computer doesn't have. That's the whole point of having those words. Unless you want to make up a fantasy world that sounds profound but has no relation to reality.
I know what the dictionary says, and it doesn't contradict me. Life is action or animation, and consciousness is awareness of ones environment. How do we know something's aware? It reacts. Life and consciousness = action and reaction.
This is too simple: Wenster's New World dictionary (1960) says "alive" is that which has life, and "life" is "1. that property of plants and animals which makes it possible for them to take in food, get energy from it, grow, adapt themselves to their surroundings, and reproduce their kind." Talk to biologists and they will tell you something very similar.
Did you know that machines have been created that can do all of that?

[Another brick in the wall]

Name one machine that can reproduce or repair itself.

[Zen Master]

A rock is not alive or conscious. There, I've shattered your argument.
What do you think consciousness is? How can you tell if something is conscious?

[Zen Master]

Name one machine that can reproduce or repair itself.
I'll have to search for the article, but robots have been made that can learn, reproduce, repair themselves, adapt to their surroundings, ect.

[HeWhoAsks]

Name one machine that can reproduce or repair itself.
But it's even worse: Zen master said that *computers* were alive. So, Zen master holds that a computer can do all those things in that definition of life I gave above. How absurd is that?

[Another brick in the wall]

First, only living things can be conscious, although not all living things are conscious (plants, for example). So first we have to test to see if an object is alive. A living thing is conscious if it reacts to stimuli and initiates behavior.

[HeWhoAsks]

Name one machine that can reproduce or repair itself.
I'll have to search for the article, but robots have been made that can learn, reproduce, repair themselves, adapt to their surroundings, ect.
Be careful: to be alive, something has to do *all* of the things mentioned above in that definition of life. Of course, some machines can do *one* or *some* of those things.

[Zen Master]

Name one machine that can reproduce or repair itself.
But it's even worse: Zen master said that *computers* were alive. So, Zen master holds that a computer can do all those things in that definition of life I gave above. How absurd is that?
No, I'm not saying that a rock or a computer can do all of those things, (although they have the potential within them). Animal life can do that, but that's just one form of life. Both rocks and animals are alive, the difference between them is that animals have far more complex actions and reactions.

[Another brick in the wall]

Rocks don't react to anything except erosion and gravity. Do you speak English? Check a dictionary and you'll find that rocks lack the essential characteristics of life.

[HeWhoAsks]

Name one machine that can reproduce or repair itself.
But it's even worse: Zen master said that *computers* were alive. So, Zen master holds that a computer can do all those things in that definition of life I gave above. How absurd is that?
No, I'm not saying that a rock or a computer can do all of those things, (although they have the potential within them). Animal life can do that, but that's just one form of life. Both rocks and animals are alive, the difference between them is that animals have far more complex actions and reactions.
No, no, no, you *did* say that a computer was alive and *conscious* in post #86. So please admit that, when you said that, you weren't really understanding what the word "alive" meant.

And now you're saying *rocks* are alive. Do you have any sense of using words that other people understand the meaning of, or do you always communicate by assigning whatever meaning you wish to any word?

[gmanbc]

As far as your preaching about the universe and everything being alive.

Gospel of Thomas 11 Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. And the dead (elements) are not alive, and the living (elements) will not die. In the days when you used to ingest dead (elements), you made them alive.

Jesus disagrees with you. :rolleyes:

Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
--Gospel of Thomas 77
Jesus obviously wasn’t thinking that when he said this:

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?" "It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
--Gospel of Thomas 113
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Not only does this verse contradict the one you are quoting it says that some of the Apostles were going to be there when he returned. umm, they all died...


"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and whoever knows himself shall find it. And, having found it, you shall know yourselves that you are sons and heirs of the Father, the Almighty, and shall know yourselves that you are in God and God in you. And you are the City of God."
--Jesus, Oxyrhynchus manuscript
Again Jesus disagrees with you.

Gospel of Thomas 82: Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the kingdom."

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

You claimed that all of the Bible is a metaphor. Even if you want to change that quote and say "most" you still include the flood in your list. Since we are quoting Jesus today: Luke 17:26 Jesus says, “In those days before the flood, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came to destroy them all”.

Someone forgot to tell Jesus the story was a metaphor. :/


Like I said before, you are picking and choosing what versus you want to use to make a point. The Gospels are so poorly written that an Atheist has the advantage if you are going to use them to try and make a point. And if you are not going to use them then you have no place to base anything because God left no evidence of him doing anything. Instead, we have two dominate religions that are at their core more evil than good. These religions support slavery, genocide, and the oppression of woman. They are financial institutions that have made more money than Bill Gates and have a higher anual income than him today, yet provide you with nothing! At least microsoft lets you rent their software...

Lee
gmanbc

[Another brick in the wall]

I don't why anyone takes the bible seriously. It carries about as much weight with me as a fortune cookie.

[gmanbc]

I don't why anyway takes the bible seriously. It carries about as much weight with me as a fortune cookie.
I can tell you why, because, out of two billion Christians maybe two million have read the Bible. If you talk to Christians on a regular basis like I try to do you will be amazed at their lack of knowledge of their own book.

I prefer fortune cookies :P At least they provide some sustenance.

Lee
gmanbc

[Another brick in the wall]

It doesn't amaze me. I do find very amusing though. Here are people who say that there's this book which contains the most important information ever, and yet most of them haven't bothered to read it. The only thing more absurd is Muslims memorzing the whole Koran in Arabic, even though most Muslims don't speak that language.

[gmanbc]

It doesn't amaze me. I do find very amusing though. Here are people who say that there's this book which contains the most important information ever, and yet most of them haven't bothered to read it. The only thing more absurd is Muslims memorzing the whole Koran in Arabic, even though most Muslims don't speak that language.
Yea, but just like the stories in the Bible, the number of people that have supposedly memorized the Koran is quite exaggerated. At any rate if you have been forced as a child to memorize something as large as the Koran then you have been brainwashed and you would probably be willing to blow yourself up if someone told you it was for Allah. Oh wait… They are already doing that aren’t they.

Lee
gmanbc

[Zen Master]

As far as your preaching about the universe and everything being alive.

Gospel of Thomas 11 Jesus said, "This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away. And the dead (elements) are not alive, and the living (elements) will not die. In the days when you used to ingest dead (elements), you made them alive.

Jesus disagrees with you. :rolleyes:
Jesus is speaking of spiritual life and death, of psychological transformation.

Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
--Gospel of Thomas 77
Jesus obviously wasn’t thinking that when he said this:

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
In Luke, Jesus is speaking as his limited, physical, temporary self, that is his ego. In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus was speaking as Christ, the universal self that we all are a part of. The Brahman-Atman.

His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?" "It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
--Gospel of Thomas 113
Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Not only does this verse contradict the one you are quoting it says that some of the Apostles were going to be there when he returned. umm, they all died...
He returned while they were still alive:

Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
--Luke 17:19-21

"...Christ is in you..."
--Colossians 1:27

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me."
--Galatians 2:20

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and whoever knows himself shall find it. And, having found it, you shall know yourselves that you are sons and heirs of the Father, the Almighty, and shall know yourselves that you are in God and God in you. And you are the City of God."
--Jesus, Oxyrhynchus manuscript
Again Jesus disagrees with you.

Gospel of Thomas 82: Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the kingdom."

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
The kingdom is within us and all around us, but to enter into it, you must realize it. It's a state of mind, all this talk of dying, resurrecting, entering heaven, it's all about psychological transformation.

You claimed that all of the Bible is a metaphor. Even if you want to change that quote and say "most" you still include the flood in your list. Since we are quoting Jesus today: Luke 17:26 Jesus says, “In those days before the flood, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came to destroy them all”.

Someone forgot to tell Jesus the story was a metaphor. :/
Jesus was speaking metaphorically.

Like I said before, you are picking and choosing what versus you want to use to make a point. The Gospels are so poorly written that an Atheist has the advantage if you are going to use them to try and make a point. And if you are not going to use them then you have no place to base anything because God left no evidence of him doing anything.
My "beliefs" are not based on the Bible, or any other book. I don't need any book to tell me about God. The only reason I posted quotes from the Bible is because you asked me to do so.

[Zen Master]

I don't why anyone takes the bible seriously. It carries about as much weight with me as a fortune cookie.
They take it so seriously because they have been mislead. The Bible is a book written by men, it is not infallible. God never literally wrote a book containing all absolute truths, that would destroy the human mind, there would no longer be a reason for us to think about anything.

[gmanbc]

How can you argue with a man who knows exactly what Jesus was thinking? Heck, I could have been Jesus back then. The key was to just say it both ways. That way when you were quoted later people can say well, he said it was black and when he said it was white he was using a metaphor. Does anyone else think Jesus was speaking metaphorically here?

Luke 17:26 Jesus says, “In those days before the flood, the people enjoyed banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat and the flood came to destroy them all”.

It sounds to me that Jesus thought that portion of the Bible was history. Of course what do I know? I can't read his mind like you claim to.

You keep telling us that you don't need a book to tell you about God but you can't seem to find him well enough to show us him and try your best to twist words to make a God out of thin air. If there was a God he would have the ass at this website, me and everyone else that denounces him like he does in the Bible. Your comment about God not writing the book because it would destroy our minds is a load of crap. Where is that written? Because he hasn't written a book or gave some kind of proof that he exist, millions of people have been slaughtered in his name. Get real! I recall reading that all scripture was inspired by God! Yes that is in the bible. It also states in the bible not to scoff at prophesy and to test everything that is said. Yet you say that man wrote the Bible and of course it will have mistakes?

Please show us some sort of proof of your God. I denounce him and if you are right about his existence and he is anything like what is written in the Bible then he will come kill me tonight but that isn’t going to happen is it?

I will sleep well tonight.

Lee
gmanbc

[Zen Master]

If there was a God he would have the ass at this website
He is at this website, in fact he is this website. God is you and me, and everything else. God is the infinite All.

Your comment about God not writing the book because it would destroy our minds is a load of crap.
Why is it crap? Think about it, if all the answers were right here before us, if we knew everything there is to know about everything, what would there be for us to think about? What then would be the point of having a mind at all? We would be as good as dead.

This is why God makes himself human and allows himself to forget, so he can have new experiences, and go on new adventures, and can discover himself all over again. The whole cosmos is just one great play. It's a great way to pass eternity.

Where is that written?
Why does it have to be written somewhere? I can speak for myself.

I recall reading that all scripture was inspired by God!
Of course it is, just as a painting of a flower is inspired by a flower. God made all, is all, and so has inspired all.

Please show us some sort of proof of your God.
My God is you and me and everything else. My God is existence, the infinite All.

[WITHTEETH]

Why would god condemn man, if he is Omnipotnent, aominipresent, all knowing, HE MUST have known adam was going to eat the fruit. Unless he is not the sharpest god in the toolshed, and made a miscalculation. Why did god choose to condemn man when he knew it was coming, why did he set the situation up?

[gmanbc]

If there was a God he would have the ass at this website

He is at this website, in fact he is this website. God is you and me, and everything else. God is the infinite All.
Your comment about God not writing the book because it would destroy our minds is a load of crap.

Why is it crap? Think about it, if all the answers were right here before us, if we knew everything there is to know about everything, what would there be for us to think about? What then would be the point of having a mind at all? We would be as good as dead.
This is why God makes himself human and allows himself to forget, so he can have new experiences, and go on new adventures, and can discover himself all over again. The whole cosmos is just one great play. It's a great way to pass eternity.
That is rediculous. Life isn't about a bunch of questions and answers. Are you saying I couldn't love my wife or enjoy a movie if God wrote a book? Get real. And even if your comment had any validity(which it doesn't) God's book would never be read but by a small majority anyway.

Your comment about God making himself forget you must have got straight from him as that was not passed down in any religion I know :rolleyes:

Where is that written?

Why does it have to be written somewhere? I can speak for myself.
I have no problem with you speaking for yourself but you are speaking for God and saying that he has appointed you his spokesman without any guidance, and just like every other religion, any proof.

I recall reading that all scripture was inspired by God!
Of course it is, just as a painting of a flower is inspired by a flower. God made all, is all, and so has inspired all.
Please show us some sort of proof of your God.
My God is you and me and everything else. My God is existence, the infinite All.
You have provided everyone with less proof of God then any organized religion. Which is to say you have provided nothing. If there was a God he would have left evidence of his existence which he hasn't. Your God is just a play on words and anyone can argue and not say anything which is all you are doing.

Oh, by the way. I just woke up from a peaceful nights sleep. :cool:

Lee
gmanbc

[Zen Master]

That is rediculous. Life isn't about a bunch of questions and answers. Are you saying I couldn't love my wife or enjoy a movie if God wrote a book?
You couldn't enjoy a movie if you already knew everything that happened in it, and you know what happens to a relationship when all the mystery is gone.

Your comment about God making himself forget you must have got straight from him as that was not passed down in any religion I know :rolleyes:
Well then you mustn't know very much, because this idea is expressed in many different religions. And even if it weren't, so what? Haven't you ever heard of freethought?

I have no problem with you speaking for yourself but you are speaking for God and saying that he has appointed you his spokesman without any guidance, and just like every other religion, any proof.
I'm no more a spokesman for God than you are. I have my own opinions and thoughts.

I recall reading that all scripture was inspired by God!
Of course it is, just as a painting of a flower is inspired by a flower. God made all, is all, and so has inspired all.
Please show us some sort of proof of your God.
My God is you and me and everything else. My God is existence, the infinite All.
You have provided everyone with less proof of God then any organized religion. Which is to say you have provided nothing. If there was a God he would have left evidence of his existence which he hasn't. Your God is just a play on words and anyone can argue and not say anything which is all you are doing.
My God is existence, the infinite All. If you want proof of the existence of existence, open your eyes, it's all around you.

[gmanbc]

That is ridiculous. Life isn't about a bunch of questions and answers. Are you saying I couldn't love my wife or enjoy a movie if God wrote a book?

You couldn't enjoy a movie if you already knew everything that happened in it, and you know what happens to a relationship when all the mystery is gone.
Come on. Does anyone want to read through a book that has everything about everyone in it? We are just asking for proof not a 20 billion page book. Heck most people haven't even read the Bible so that kills your argument all by itself.

Your comment about God making himself forget you must have got straight from him as that was not passed down in any religion I know :rolleyes:

Well then you mustn't know very much, because this idea is expressed in many different religions. And even if it weren't, so what? Haven't you ever heard of freethought?
Name one! And what does free thought have to do with God making himself forget?

I have no problem with you speaking for yourself but you are speaking for God and saying that he has appointed you his spokesman without any guidance, and just like every other religion, any proof.

I'm no more a spokesman for God than you are. I have my own opinions and thoughts.
No you are making claims that are just made up out of thin air. You are saying that God is everything and that is nothing more that putting the name "GOD" on everything.

Lee
gmanbc

[Zen Master]

That is ridiculous. Life isn't about a bunch of questions and answers. Are you saying I couldn't love my wife or enjoy a movie if God wrote a book?

You couldn't enjoy a movie if you already knew everything that happened in it, and you know what happens to a relationship when all the mystery is gone.
Come on. Does anyone want to read through a book that has everything about everyone in it? We are just asking for proof not a 20 billion page book. Heck most people haven't even read the Bible so that kills your argument all by itself.
Proof is all around you, open your eyes. You don't need a book.

Your comment about God making himself forget you must have got straight from him as that was not passed down in any religion I know :rolleyes:

Well then you mustn't know very much, because this idea is expressed in many different religions. And even if it weren't, so what? Haven't you ever heard of freethought?
Name one!
Hinduism.

And what does free thought have to do with God making himself forget?
free thought
n.
Thought that rejects authority and dogma, especially in religion; freethinking.


free thought
n : the form of theological rationalism that believes in God on the basis of reason without reference to revelation

freethinker
n.
One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation.

I have no problem with you speaking for yourself but you are speaking for God and saying that he has appointed you his spokesman without any guidance, and just like every other religion, any proof.

I'm no more a spokesman for God than you are. I have my own opinions and thoughts.
No you are making claims that are just made up out of thin air. You are saying that God is everything and that is nothing more that putting the name "GOD" on everything.
Only existence can be the omnimax God. Only one thing can be everywhere.

[800 pound Jesus]

Isaiah 43:24 "I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; and I will not remember your sins.

[gmanbc]

Isaiah 43:24 "I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; and I will not remember your sins.
Yeah, the Bible has God forgetting quite a few times but it never has him making himself forget so he can enjoy new experiences as quoted by Zen Master. The Bible also has God changing his mind, showing regret and a whole lot of other human traits that contradicts the Bibles Omnipotent claim.

Lee
gmanbc

[gmanbc]

Proof is all around you, open your eyes. You don't need a book.
Proof of Darwism or God?

God is said to forget in several religions but he never does it for the reason you stated and like you claim it is probably a metaphor :cool:

So do you talk to God? And more importantly does he talk to you?

Lee
gmanbc

[Zen Master]

In Hinduism, God is everything, and the entire cosmos is seen as great play or drama, in which God is every actor. This idea is also expressed by Jesus and Paul. It's in many religions.

[Zen Master]

Proof is all around you, open your eyes. You don't need a book.
Proof of Darwism or God?
Both.

So do you talk to God? And more importantly does he talk to you?
We're talking right now. :)

[gmanbc]

Proof is all around you, open your eyes. You don't need a book.
Proof of Darwism or God?
Both.

So do you talk to God? And more importantly does he talk to you?
We're talking right now. :)
I can't honestly say that there isn't a God but I do know that I aint him :) If you want to call the mystical realm in which we live God then I guess you are entitled to your opinion but every day another mystery is explained and one day, if we don't kill ourselves first, even the mystery of life will be explained.

I must admit I like your version of God better than any Christian that I have met. If everyone thought like you the world would be a better place but that isn't going to happen anytime soon. Good luck with your God.

Lee
gmanbc

[HeWhoAsks]

Zen master, don't you have a reponse to my post #105? I'm not talking about just restating your ideas that led up to that post, but actually addressing the specific ideas in my post #105.

[Zen Master]

Proof of Darwism or God?
Both.

So do you talk to God? And more importantly does he talk to you?
We're talking right now. :)
I can't honestly say that there isn't a God but I do know that I aint him :)
Bravo. ;)

[gmanbc]

Zen master, don't you have a reponse to my post #105? I'm not talking about just restating your ideas that led up to that post, but actually addressing the specific ideas in my post #105.
The Zen Master is God so he probably made himself forget that you wrote the post :)

He does have a way with words but as you point out his way is twisting the word until he gets what meaning that best fits his arguement. But he seems harmless enough :rolleyes:

Lee
gmanbc

[Mog]

Zen Master's belief system appears to be pantheistic. I don't have a problem with the god is the universe view, just the assumption that such a god would necessarily be sentient or omnipotent or even omniscient. The molecules in the statue of liberty is organized in a pleasing manner, but they don't grant it sentience even though it has many times the molecules that we do.

OK, so what about the earth? Do its life, the terrain, and the way they interact create an intriguing and complex system? Yes, but does it imply sentience? No.
But lets take the big assumption that Gaia or the universe is sentient. Does that make it omniscient? Well, on a certain level, you might say it does, but lets compare this Gaia or the Universe to a human body. I have a certain amount of awareness over my body, but there are limits to my awareness. I'm unaware of the food passing through my body unless I eat something bad. I can't detect my neuron's firing. I'm not omnipotent over my own body either. I don't have direct control over my circulatory system, my digestive system and many other organs in the human body. So why should we assume that the universe-god to interact personally with us and transfer its consciousness into the equivalent of a neuron? (or a neutron in a neuron.)
We need not assume that the universe-god is either omnipotent or omniscient with the god is universe analogy and we should not expect it as a whole to interact at a personal level with us. This does not rule out our ability to interact at a personal level with the universe, of course.
And then theres the enormously slow metabolism of the universe. If the stars are neurons, then given light speed, a single thought would take many years to process. It sort of makes it difficult to talk to god if you are dead by the time he answers.

[800 pound Jesus]

I eat something bad. I don't have direct control over my digestive system....
Hey man, remind me not to stand near or even down wind from you after you eat.

[Zen Master]

Zen Master's belief system appears to be pantheistic. I don't have a problem with the god is the universe view, just the assumption that such a god would necessarily be sentient or omnipotent or even omniscient. The molecules in the statue of liberty is organized in a pleasing manner, but they don't grant it sentience even though it has many times the molecules that we do.
Well, the statue is not conscious in the way that we are, we have a very advanced consciousness. But if you strike it, it will react, and that reaction is a very primitive form of consciousness. Fundamentally, that's all consciousness and life is, action and reaction.

But lets take the big assumption that Gaia or the universe is sentient. Does that make it omniscient? Well, on a certain level, you might say it does, but lets compare this Gaia or the Universe to a human body. I have a certain amount of awareness over my body, but there are limits to my awareness. I'm unaware of the food passing through my body unless I eat something bad. I can't detect my neuron's firing.
God "makes" the universe without having to think about it, like you beat your heart, and grow your hair without thinking about it.

I'm not omnipotent over my own body either. I don't have direct control over my circulatory system, my digestive system and many other organs in the human body. So why should we assume that the universe-god to interact personally with us and transfer its consciousness into the equivalent of a neuron? (or a neutron in a neuron.)
We need not assume that the universe-god is either omnipotent or omniscient with the god is universe analogy and we should not expect it as a whole to interact at a personal level with us. This does not rule out our ability to interact at a personal level with the universe, of course.
It does interact as a whole on a personal level, in fact it's doing it right now. Each person is a function that the entire universe is doing. We're waves in the cosmic ocean.

And then theres the enormously slow metabolism of the universe. If the stars are neurons, then given light speed, a single thought would take many years to process. It sort of makes it difficult to talk to god if you are dead by the time he answers.
The universe can "communicate" with itself across billions and billions of miles instantly, faster than the speed of light. Einstein called this "spooky action at a distance". Google for more info.