I am taking on the Theists in my home town and I need help

[Inventor Of Gods]

I am gathering information to create a presentation that I may present to the municipal council and request that they use their power to slap a property tax on churches. What I am looking for is some information on how the financial structure of the catholic and Anglican churches operates (the big names in our town.) I already possess some of the information on Canadian (BC) zoning laws, and property assessment techniques, but more would be appreciated if possible. The goal is to convince the municipal counsel that churches do not qualify to fall under the non-profit organization status, or “organizations created for the common good of the people". Based on my calculations of the property values of church property, I have been able to determine that if I am able to succeed, the money collected would be able allow our little town to finally have a recreation center. Even if I fail, I will still be able to create a decent sized ruckus, and seeing as how this town has a sizable chunk of non-religious people in it, and at the very least, it would create interesting debate.

Your local churches use municipal water, sewer, roads, and various other services that cost large sums of money to operate. This is wrong. A good citizen stops a thief, and I am no different.

[Spurius Furius]

Rouse the rabble my good man! I applaud your efforts.

[StillSurviving]

I pray your efforts succeed. haha. I have a deacon in my family, but I couldn't exactly ask him to help.

[niles]

Find yourself a good lawyer and even then you would need a bonafide miracle to succeed..
Good luck,kid.

[Tiamat]

Well, the church had been give tax exempt status for the soul purpous of taking care of those who could not take care of them selves. How ever they quit doing their job and Uncle Sam had to use welfare to kick in. If they are making a profit they should be taxed. If you have noticed a lot of the church higher ups are not exactly in rags; not even close...so "shrug" But no one is willing to do anything about it...the politicians will not touch the subject with a ten foot pole.
I wish you luck all the same though.

[StillSurviving]

I have got to come back to this issue, because it really bothers me. Our government is not allowed to endorse a church. How is treating churches differently from other businesses anything but an endorsement?

[Firesolved]

Hmmm...an easy solution besides burning that motha to the ground would be to move. I couldnt take that shit for long dude...and if you doint wanna move or be convicted for arson charges, write your state represenative (or whatever canada has). Thats what theyre there for dude. Get that large chunk of non religious people to have your back for ya man.

[Just Add Fire]

well the problem with that is that almost all government officials are religious it would be hard to get a christian to help harm the christian church by making them pay bills

[Firesolved]

With enough public support, anything is possible. You put the political pressure on and theyll fall.

[Just Add Fire]

lets just hope thats true

[StillSurviving]

Thinking of christian churches as a business, they remind me of those companies with health products that have infomercials on at 3 am.

They tell you all about one success story (in this case, Jesus) but if you read the fine print:
Results not typical. Individual results may vary.

[Another brick in the wall]

Consult brain for true nature of reality.

Warning label I'd like to see in holy books: For entertainment purposes only.

[Jennifer]

It helps if you have a big mouthed friend or two that can act as a shills...sitting far from you and demanding to hear what you have to say if the crowd gets ugly. Ths technique has worked well for me twice now.

[DMofD&D]

I'm behind you %110 IOG. However, I'm 14, Live in the USA, and don't know much about goverment. I'd of little help to you. Sorry.

[Choobus]

Don't even bother dude. All you will dois vex yourself and perhaps make things difficult for your family. You won't achieve anythng good. sorry tpo be a naysayer, but those cunts are firmly entrenched and, unfortunately, they are not giong anywhere.

If they work so hard to cover up a child molesting scandal how hard do you think they will try to keep up their revenue?

I admire your concept, but I think you are being naive. Sorry.

Ps, i am drunk

[Another brick in the wall]

Go for it. If nothing else, it will make for a memorable evening at the city council. Nothing wrong with tilting at windmills from time to time.

[Techno]

Best of luck to you sir...but im in the same boat as the D&D master guy.
Wors that will happen is you will have a hell of a lot of fun creating a big xtian\non-xtian debate

[Inventor Of Gods]

In Canada, municipalities have the right to create property taxes. In this small town, I personally know one of the people on the municipal counsel, and he is not religious. I do not believe that this little scheme will work, but it is definitely fun to write letters to the editor and sway counsel members to bring up the issue of why the churches should have to pay up for their basic services. My progress is quite slow, as I am busy working and attending school, but I have managed to gather a group of atheists and Christians who also believe what I do. We have had a series of discussions on how to present this argument to the people on the municipal counsel. We are also working on a letter to the editor of our local newspaper (who is the mother of one of the people in my group, and has agreed to publish it.) Although we are unlikely to succeed, there is hope in the future. Canada, unlike the states, is steadily heading away Xian influenced government policies, and if enough people speak up, will eventually hold the church to the same level of financial standards as other for-profit organizations.

It really helps to know people who have influence on politics and the media =)

[Zen Master]

Churches are (supposed to be) non-profit, charitable organizations. Why would you want them to be taxed?

[Firesolved]

Because theyre doing it unlawfully.

[Zen Master]

Because theyre doing it unlawfully.
They are? I'm pretty sure that all non-profit, charitable organizations are legally tax exempt.

[Another brick in the wall]

The question is whether it is right for churches to be tax exempt. They use public services and don't pay for them.
Is that right?

[Zen Master]

The question is whether it is right for churches to be tax exempt. They use public services and don't pay for them.
Is that right?
Yes, if they are non-profit and charitable. Those services are going right back into the community.

[Another brick in the wall]

What about the ones that are not providing a service to the community? Should they be taxed while others are not? If we did that, those churches would complain about discrimination. To be fair, they should all be taxed, or none should be taxed.

[Zen Master]

What about the ones that are not providing a service to the community?
Yes, they should be taxed. But all churches are supposed to be charitable, I've never heard of one that isn't.

[Another brick in the wall]

You've never heard of a cult?

[Zen Master]

You've never heard of a cult?
I'm talking about a normal, regular church. Most churches aren't cults.

[Another brick in the wall]

What is the legal definition of a "normal, regular church?" Lawmakers need a standard to apply to every religion, regardless of its popularity.

[Zen Master]

What is the legal definition of a "normal, regular church?" Lawmakers need a standard to apply to every religion, regardless of its popularity.
It's irrelevant. Any organization that is non-profit and charitable should not be taxed.

[Another brick in the wall]

So a religion like Scientology that harasses its members if they try to leave and spends most of its money on law suits should not be taxed?

[Zen Master]

So a religion like Scientology that harasses its members if they try to leave and spends most of its money on law suits should not be taxed?
Scientology? I've never heard of this. But if it's not charitable, then it should be taxed.

[Another brick in the wall]

You've never heard of Scientology? It is THE quintessential cult! Have you ever heard of Jim Jones?

How do you determine if a church is not charitable?

[Zen Master]

You've never heard of Scientology? It is THE quintessential cult! Have you ever heard of Jim Jones?
Nope.

How do you determine if a church is not charitable?
If they help those in need without getting paid to do it, then they are charitable.

[Another brick in the wall]

Jim Jones started a church and forced his members to live with him on a commune in South America. He gave them poison Kool-Aid and they all committed mass suicide.

Most churches perform charity as means of acquiring new members. I give you a sandwich, and while you eat, I tell you about Jesus.

[Zen Master]

Most churches perform charity as means of acquiring new members. I give you a sandwich, and while you eat, I tell you about Jesus.
Do you really think that's the only reason they do it? Do you really think that a church wouldn't help a poor Jewish or Hindu family if they had absolutely no intention of ever converting to Christianity?

[Another brick in the wall]

I didn't say that. Habitat For Humanity for example, is a christian charity with a good reputation of providing housing in primarily non-christian areas. I'm just saying that many churches use charity as a ruse for evangelizing.

[Zen Master]

I didn't say that. Habitat For Humanity for example, is a christian charity with a good reputation of providing housing in primarily non-christian areas. I'm just saying that many churches use charity as a ruse for evangelizing.
Even if that's true, they're still helping those in need, and therefore they shouldn't be taxed.

[Another brick in the wall]

The Coca-Cola company helps people quench their thirst- should they be exempt from taxation? Churches are a business. If other businesses get taxed, they should get taxed too.

[Zen Master]

The Coca-Cola company helps people quench their thirst-
And they get paid to do it. A charity helps those in need without getting paid for it.

[Another brick in the wall]

But churches do get paid. They take tithing from their members and use it to build more churches, print more bibles, and train new missionaries. And even after that, the church leaders make enough to become millionaires.

[Zen Master]

But churches do get paid. They take tithing from their members and use it to build more churches, print more bibles, and train new missionaries. And even after that, the church leaders make enough to become millionaires.
Well those are bad churches. Church leaders should not be millionares.

[Another brick in the wall]

Many of them are. It's the perfect business, what with it being tax-exempt and all. Incidentally, I think most forms of taxation qualify as theft, but that's another topic.

[Jennifer]

Habitat For Humanity for example, is a christian charity with a good reputation of providing housing in primarily non-christian areas.

Actually they do require quite a few "classes" (and by classes I of course mean groveling) from the home recipiants and the volunteer workers are required to participate in prayer sessions before working. I liked volunteering, but the "praying" gets quite annoying after a while.

[Just Add Fire]

Well those are bad churches. Church leaders should not be millionares.
i know exactly what you mean, christian churches are bad churches

Priests:

(+)many priests/pastors have been charged with stealing from the collection plate

(+)they have a well paying job which requires 10 hours a week...max

(+)their houses are free to them...free electricity, free plumbing, free telephone service

now you must ask yourself...why should you give them anymore...

(-)they dont pay for anything besides food(thats it)

(-)they barely do anywork

(-)they RAPE CHILDREN


MAKE THEM PAY THEIR INCOME TAXES, PEOPLE WHO DONT PAY TAXES GO TO JAIL (AL CAPONE) PEOPLE WHO RAPE CHILDREN GO TO JAIL (MICHAEL JACKSON),...

HOWEVER IF YOU ARE IN THE CHURCH AND YOU DONT PAY YOUR TAXES ITS OK, AND IF YOU ARE A PRIEST IN THE CHURCH AND YOU RAPE CHILDREN (PAUL SHANLEY, McMARTIN, ROBERT PONCIROLI, FRANKLIN CURTIS, PETER LAVIN, GILBERT GAUTHE...just to name a few) ITS IS FINE AND EVEN OK AMONG SOME OF THE BRANCHES OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH...SUCH AS BAPTIST, WHO RECENTLY HAD A HUSBAND AND WIFE DISCOVERED TO BE THE LEADERS OF A CHILD-SEX-RING AMONG THEIR LOCAL CHUCH

[Another brick in the wall]

I don't why people have so much respect for people like the Pope or the Dalai Lama. They live in luxury and have access to pretty much anything they want. If the Pope let homeless people live in the Vatican, I'd be more impressed.

[nthn200]

I am gathering information to create a presentation that I may present to the municipal council and request that they use their power to slap a property tax on churches. What I am looking for is some information on how the financial structure of the catholic and Anglican churches operates (the big names in our town.) I already possess some of the information on Canadian (BC) zoning laws, and property assessment techniques, but more would be appreciated if possible. The goal is to convince the municipal counsel that churches do not qualify to fall under the non-profit organization status, or “organizations created for the common good of the people". Based on my calculations of the property values of church property, I have been able to determine that if I am able to succeed, the money collected would be able allow our little town to finally have a recreation center. Even if I fail, I will still be able to create a decent sized ruckus, and seeing as how this town has a sizable chunk of non-religious people in it, and at the very least, it would create interesting debate.

Your local churches use municipal water, sewer, roads, and various other services that cost large sums of money to operate. This is wrong. A good citizen stops a thief, and I am no different.
Not to sound like a dick, but did you investigate if your local churches actually were doing things for the "common good of the people." I mean, really and truly. Because the Anglican church that I know of is pretty on point with that sort of stuff. They raise a lot of money for every sort of thing you can imagine (and its out of the pockets of the social elite on top of that, this church is in a wealthy university community).

[Another brick in the wall]

Historically, churches were given a pass on taxes. I guess this is because kings in medieval times thought it sinful to levy taxes on the church (I'm not an expert on the history, so anyone please feel free to point out where I'm wrong). I don't see the point of trying to squeeze a few more tax dollars out of church, even if it is wealthy, nor do I see the point of getting upset about a rule that isn't going to change in the near future. But that's just me.

[Jennifer]

Well I think bringing up the issue is great. I don't know how successful you will be at getting churches taxed, but it certainly reminds the religious that _not_ seperating church and state is a two edged sword, and in this day and in the current political climate that is a big plus. If you move the minds of everyone in the room just a little it will be like you changed an entire person.

Go for it. Just remember to bring some friends. "One voice is a nut case, two voices are a nut case and a friend, five voices are 'we need to have a meeting', and twenty voices are 'our good friends'"

[Jennifer]

.. If the Pope let homeless people live in the Vatican, I'd be more impressed.
Pope's used to let lots of working women live in the Vatican, but people got upset and started Potestantism.

[Another brick in the wall]

The Catholic church did a lot of things to alienate its followers. Namely, it was a transparently hypocritical fraud.

[whoneedscience]

Historically, churches were given a pass on taxes. I guess this is because kings in medieval times thought it sinful to levy taxes on the church (I'm not an expert on the history, so anyone please feel free to point out where I'm wrong). I don't see the point of trying to squeeze a few more tax dollars out of church, even if it is wealthy, nor do I see the point of getting upset about a rule that isn't going to change in the near future. But that's just me.
Kings in medieval times more likely thought they would be excommunicated or burned at the stake. The Church had all the power back then, and it's still nothing but a poorly designed political entity. Just ask John Paul II or Darth Vader XVI.

The point of getting upset is that the Church is a political entity without the checks and ballances of a legitimate government. I'm envious that Canada could have the balls to stand up for itself while we in the US sit by and let religion control our hard-fought freedom.

Remember this? (http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm)

Ignore the God stuff:D