How can theism exist?

[whoneedscience]

I think most of us can agree that religion, or (for you theists) at least religious fundamentalism, represents a major societal problem, but I would like to know how exactly something so evil, yet logically laughable, could become so widely problematic. Most people I talk to are very willing to reason with me on morality and the existence of God (even devout catholics) so where is this fundamental breakdown of reason. Is it simply that religion has entrenched itself in society and has been accepted as a norm, or is it just that people in general don't care enough, or aren't intelligent enough to think for themselves? Why is it that no one seems to care about objectivity or scientific reasoning?

[GodlessHeathen]

A couple of possible reasons:

1) Religion is passed on from generation to generation. For most religious people, the indoctrination starts pretty much at birth, and continues to adulthood (I know this from my own experience). Having dogma repeated to you week in and week out for years leads people to believe it unquestioningly.

2) The cirricula of many public schools. I don't know about everywhere, but here in Indiana, high school students only need to take 1 year of science and 2 years of math. Mathematics is the foundation of logic, and without that, and a knowledge of science, kids aren't really learning how to reason.

[GaryM]

It was interesting to hear about the curriculum in Indiana. Here in Scotland, you go to Secondary school at age 12 and are required to study Mathematics and General Science for 2 years. After that you have to pick subjects to study for another 2 years, after which you have to sit exams. It is compulsory to do Mathematics and one physical science. From age 14 to 16 I studied English, Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Computing, Geography, German and Music. I'm not sure how "High School" in the USA compares with "Secondary School" here, but I hope you can draw a comparison from what I've written.

[Lundie]

In Muslim Southeast Asia, it's actually mandatory for muslim students to attend 'Islamic studies' classes throughout their 11 years of schooling! How's that for brainwashing?

[Rhinoqulous]

Mathematics is the foundation of logic...
This has nothing to do with the discussion, but this is a little pet peeve of mine. Logic and Mathematics are not the same thing, math is not the foundation of logic, and logic is not the foundation of math. Logic is a "complete" system, while mathematics is an "incomplete" system. Kurt Gödel (http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/g5.htm#goed) proved this in 1931.

I don't want to start a discussion on this; I'm just being anal (like I said, this is a pet peeve of mine). If you don't believe me, do a google search on "Completeness Proof of Logic" to see why logic is complete, and do some research on Gödel to see why math is not.

Rhinoq

[GodlessHeathen]

Rhinoq, perhaps I should re-phrase. I didn't mean logic as a field of study, or even as a field at all. I was referring to the more colloquial definition of logic as "valid reasoning", or "critical thinking".

GaryM, "High School" in the US is roughly from ages 14 or 15 to 17 or 18. I'm not sure if what some states call "Middle School", and others call "Jr. High School" is considered Secondary education, but it's generally age 11 or 12 to 14 or 15.

The math and science requirements I stated before is what was in place when I graduated from High School. I did a bit of research and found that in 2000, they updated their requirements. (http://ideanet.doe.state.in.us/sservices/gradreq.htm) Not much, but it is still an improvement - now they require 2 years of math and 2 years of science.

[whoneedscience]

Firstly, while I can see Rinoq's peeve, I would have to agree that science and math (as the two go hand in hand and thus should be considered together) are at least the educational roots of logic and reason. I'm not exactly sure, though, that you can make the connection between science and atheism. That seems too easy.

I remember having about the same 2 yrs math/science requirements, but I also remember being heavily encouraged to take more (which I did, of course), or else we wouldn't get into college and would die a miserable death. I'm from the Northeastern US, and the joke was the the Bible Belt existed as a boost to our SATs, so I wonder if the only difference is that they don't expand on those basic requirements, which would leave the question of what social conditions exist that allow for that failure of logic. When I lived in Australia, they had a similar situation as what GaryM desciribed in Scotland, and it seemed as though science and math were simply shunned aside, and only people interrested in a career in science would take more than a year of it.

I can certainly accept that there would be a correlation between scientific reasoning and atheism, but where's the causation?

[alaspooryorick]

Religion, I feel, is born out of three things: inertia, fear, and ignorance.

Inertia: No one's stopping it. It's existed for two thousand years, and many of the Eastern religions have been around longer, and for most families, it's something ingrained from the earliest years. Children get dragged to Sunday School and church, get confirmed, have their first Holy Communion, get sent to church camp, things like that, and religion becomes part of the routine. Granted, the secular has taken over many of the religious holidays, but even so--children are taught to treat church with reverence: get dressed up, buy new clothes for Easter, and in the Catholic confirmation, you even get a new addition to your name. Talk about really sticking it to your identity...religion actually becomes part of you. By the time you're capable of making your decisions, they've practically been beat senseless into you by your parents and the surrounding culture.

Fear: I suppose this fits into ignorance too, but Pascal's Wager is the answer. It seems that as people get older, they want to have something like faith to cling to, the promise that there is something other than death waiting for them, or that there is a greater plan for their lives. Early cultures demanded to know "where they came from" before science was an option. And of course, people who "pray" to do well on a test, safety, etc., obviously *want* something like religion to exist, even if they don't believe it entirely.

Ignorance: I don't see the need to elaborate on this one.

[the dash]

Fankly, I believe that religion is so thoroughly ingrained in nearly all societies because beginning in the early years of human civilization, religion and government were the same thing. What better way to control populations than to do it in the name of God? Thank the creator that religion does not equal spirituality.

[Another brick in the wall]

Religious belief has been in decline for a while. I don't particularly care what strange beliefs people hold, so long as they don't harm anyone.

[whoneedscience]

Religious belief has been in decline for a while. I don't particularly care what strange beliefs people hold, so long as they don't harm anyone.
If only that could be the case.

Thank the creator that religion does not equal spirituality.
Indeed