stupid question

[Acromnion]

John 5:14 says, "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us." :/

So you know that quote ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer? I dont know how many questions i asked "god" before his silence made me seriously doubt his existence. With all the sins of the world today, I'd think he would manifest himself in one way or another just to prove that he is still the almighty that should be respected and revered.

BTW, HI, i'm new here. :D Just looking for good discussion/debate with yall atheists, agnostics, and theists. for now, i consider myself agnostic leaning more toward atheism.

[Little Earth Stamper]

John 5:14 says, "This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us." :/

So you know that quote ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer? I dont know how many questions i asked "god" before his silence made me seriously doubt his existence. With all the sins of the world today, I'd think he would manifest himself in one way or another just to prove that he is still the almighty that should be respected and revered.

BTW, HI, i'm new here. :D Just looking for good discussion/debate with yall atheists, agnostics, and theists. for now, i consider myself agnostic leaning more toward atheism.
The key phrase their is "according to his will"

God may have a long-term plan for you that depends upon your being miserable. You can't just order god around like a robot; He listens to your prayers but he has discretion over whether and how to answer them.

The key to succesful prayer is to essentially redefine any result as a success; If, for example, you pray for a new car, you may not get one. But maybe after a few years without a car you get used to it and decide you enjoy not having to pay car insurance or go to the mechanic. And that's how god answered your prayer.

This is how I've always heard Christians explain this.

As for proof, god did manifest himself, as Jesus the Christ. Now, you or I might think that four accounts by heavily biased sources who had a heavy stake in promoting Jesus as the messiah aren't enough evidence to believe that a man could actually raise the dead, but that just shows how stubborn and closed-minded we are.

[Lurker]

As for proof, god did manifest himself, as Jesus the Christ. Now, you or I might think that four accounts by heavily biased sources who had a heavy stake in promoting Jesus as the messiah aren't enough evidence to believe that a man could actually raise the dead, but that just shows how stubborn and closed-minded we are.
One thing is for sure. The disciples believed the "lie" so much that they were willing to die a pretty gruesome death rather than recant. Considering they claimed to be eyewitnesses to everything, it's hard to imagine all those people dying for a known lie. You can bet the Romans or Jews would have loved to get any of these guys to say "It's a lie. I made the whole thing up." but they didn't. I wonder why?

[Little Earth Stamper]

As for proof, god did manifest himself, as Jesus the Christ. Now, you or I might think that four accounts by heavily biased sources who had a heavy stake in promoting Jesus as the messiah aren't enough evidence to believe that a man could actually raise the dead, but that just shows how stubborn and closed-minded we are.
One thing is for sure. The disciples believed the "lie" so much that they were willing to die a pretty gruesome death rather than recant. Considering they claimed to be eyewitnesses to everything, it's hard to imagine all those people dying for a known lie. You can bet the Romans or Jews would have loved to get any of these guys to say "It's a lie. I made the whole thing up." but they didn't. I wonder why?
Well, that's fair enough. But my point is not so much that they lied as that they were of a mindset that predisposed them to belief; Christ actually being divine was of great importance to them, so they quite likely would've overlooked any evidence that he was not truly the son of god.

You can see the same process happen today in numerous cults; People believe in charlatans like psychic surgeons, and a person who believes in them would likely not spend lots of time talking about how the Amazing Randi replicated their favorite surgeon's techniques. The evidence is out there, but it's not likely to be reported by the believers. In fact, they may not even know about it.

Oh, and I would be honestly surprised if the Romans didn't get a few people to recant under torture. But if the romans gave a man two choices, repent or die, then that person's repentance and admissions would not be very convincing to other believers, or neutral parties who had a scrap of good sense.

[Another brick in the wall]

One thing is for sure. The disciples believed the "lie" so much that they were willing to die a pretty gruesome death rather than recant. Considering they claimed to be eyewitnesses to everything, it's hard to imagine all those people dying for a known lie.
Marshall Applewhite convinced the members of his Heaven's Gate cult to die for a known lie. The bottom line is, 100 or 50 million or a billion people can be wrong. It's happened before.

[Lurker]

One thing is for sure. The disciples believed the "lie" so much that they were willing to die a pretty gruesome death rather than recant. Considering they claimed to be eyewitnesses to everything, it's hard to imagine all those people dying for a known lie.
Marshall Applewhite convinced the members of his Heaven's Gate cult to die for a known lie. The bottom line is, 100 or 50 million or a billion people can be wrong. It's happened before.
It was not a known lie, it was a belief by everyone including Applewhite. Nobody can know for certain that god/heaven awaits them in the tail of a comet.

[Lurker]

Well, that's fair enough. But my point is not so much that they lied as that they were of a mindset that predisposed them to belief; Christ actually being divine was of great importance to them, so they quite likely would've overlooked any evidence that he was not truly the son of god.
What's in it for them? Nothing I think.

You can see the same process happen today in numerous cults; People believe in charlatans like psychic surgeons, and a person who believes in them would likely not spend lots of time talking about how the Amazing Randi replicated their favorite surgeon's techniques. The evidence is out there, but it's not likely to be reported by the believers. In fact, they may not even know about it.
I agree that people fall for all kinds of things. It's easy to fake a lot of stuff, but it's not easy to fake death and resurrection. I think they'd remember that event with special clarity.

Remember, the disciples fled the scene after jesus' death like you would expect. They basically went into hiding because they though it was all over. Then they suddenly take to the streets and start spreading the message. If the disciples had doubts then I would expect one or two to recant and admit to the lie - but they didn't.

Oh, and I would be honestly surprised if the Romans didn't get a few people to recant under torture. But if the romans gave a man two choices, repent or die, then that person's repentance and admissions would not be very convincing to other believers, or neutral parties who had a scrap of good sense.
I think the romans would have loved to squelch the new christian movement. What better way to do it than a public denial. The movement would have dried up overnight.

[Another brick in the wall]

It wasn't Christianity that the Romans were worried about; it was Jewish nationalism. That's why in 70 AD the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and expelled the Jews. When you look at the history, the Jesus story makes more sense. If Jesus was really the Messiah, he would have defeated the Romans and restored and independent Jewish state. That's why Jews don't consider him to be the Messiah.

[Little Earth Stamper]

Well, that's fair enough. But my point is not so much that they lied as that they were of a mindset that predisposed them to belief; Christ actually being divine was of great importance to them, so they quite likely would've overlooked any evidence that he was not truly the son of god.
What's in it for them? Nothing I think.
Yeah, if Christ wasn't divine then their existence pretty much had no meaning, but hey, who needs a life with meaning?

You can see the same process happen today in numerous cults; People believe in charlatans like psychic surgeons, and a person who believes in them would likely not spend lots of time talking about how the Amazing Randi replicated their favorite surgeon's techniques. The evidence is out there, but it's not likely to be reported by the believers. In fact, they may not even know about it.
I agree that people fall for all kinds of things. It's easy to fake a lot of stuff, but it's not easy to fake death and resurrection. I think they'd remember that event with special clarity.

Remember, the disciples fled the scene after jesus' death like you would expect. They basically went into hiding because they though it was all over. Then they suddenly take to the streets and start spreading the message. If the disciples had doubts then I would expect one or two to recant and admit to the lie - but they didn't.
Yes, look at all the evidence! four eyewitness accounts! An empty tomb! Nobody could have faked that!

Oh, and I would be honestly surprised if the Romans didn't get a few people to recant under torture. But if the romans gave a man two choices, repent or die, then that person's repentance and admissions would not be very convincing to other believers, or neutral parties who had a scrap of good sense.
I think the romans would have loved to squelch the new christian movement. What better way to do it than a public denial. The movement would have dried up overnight.
I just told you why it wouldn't have worked. Would you trust a confession made under threat of death?

[Another brick in the wall]

I have great book called "Cows, Pigs Wars, and Witches" that offers the most plausible explanation for the Jesus story I've ever heard. The Jews of 2000 years ago were a defeated people. They were under the thumb of one of the most powerful empires the world has ever known. Everywhere, the people looked for a deliverer- a Messiah. The word "Messiah" refers to any desendant of King David, the great Jewish warrior who drove out the Phillistines and expanded the Jewish state. "David" means "Great Commander" in Hebrew. The time of Jesus was immediately after a great uprising of the Jews that ended in failure. Jesus's teachings were to peacefully accept their fate until God himself cleansed the land of the Romans. It was an escapist movement.