Accidents can Happen

[Lurker]

I like the quote from C.S. Lewis below. If it's true - if it's all just an accident - then we humans spend a lot of wasted time and energy convincing ourselves that we are somehow important when we're not. We're no more important than the spec of dust on your table or the gum on your shoe. If true, the most intelligent life form on the face of this planet is also the most deluded and the most foolish.

Now I don't believe it's true. Am I foolish for not believing it's true, or foolish for thinking my life, and all other life, has the slightest bit of significance? Nobody has the answer, however I'll gladly choose the former because I think it's better to believe I might be a fool then to know with certainty that I am a fool.

--------------

"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., of Materialism and Astronomy - are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset."
-- C.S. Lewis

[Rhinoqulous]

I like to take the route of Socrates, that wisdom comes from knowing you know nothing. But then I know something, so I'm not wise. Damn you Socrates!! :P

Rhinoq

[CFett]

I'll definitely take the latter. I know I'm insignificant. I'm 1 in 6,000,000,000.
I don't get why people need warm fuzzies to live. Well, I do, and that's the sad fact that 95% of humanity would rather be sheep than actually question those beliefs, and possibly *gasp* lose some social standing!

[Evil_Mage_Ra]

Actually, I take the opposite view. I think it's really cool that I could just be a big cosmic accident.

Take the human brain, for example. When it comes down to it, it's just a collection of positive and negative charges. Hell, the whole *universe* is just a collection of positive and negative charges (right now I'm annoying astrophysicists who would say I'm forgetting neutrinos, photons, etc., but just bear with me). But when you take those charges and arrange them a certain way such as to create a human brain, and set that brain to work studying the universe, it's like the universe gains self-awareness--a small part of it is somehow "understanding" the whole. Whoa!

(Sorry if that seemed like incoherent rambling/drugs/whatever. Even atheists like myself have some mystic beliefs. :))

[Lurker]

Actually, I take the opposite view. I think it's really cool that I could just be a big cosmic accident.

Take the human brain, for example. When it comes down to it, it's just a collection of positive and negative charges. Hell, the whole *universe* is just a collection of positive and negative charges (right now I'm annoying astrophysicists who would say I'm forgetting neutrinos, photons, etc., but just bear with me). But when you take those charges and arrange them a certain way such as to create a human brain, and set that brain to work studying the universe, it's like the universe gains self-awareness--a small part of it is somehow "understanding" the whole. Whoa!

(Sorry if that seemed like incoherent rambling/drugs/whatever. Even atheists like myself have some mystic beliefs. :))
I appreciate your thoughts. If a small part of the universe can gain self-awareness then how about a larger part or even the whole universe? Maybe the whole universe is one big cosmic self-aware brain. Bigger Whoa!

[GodlessHeathen]

How can anyone look up at the trillions of stars in the vastness of the universe every night, or survive a hurricane or tornado, and still feel that they are a significant part of creation?

[Rhinoqulous]

Maybe the whole universe is one big cosmic self-aware brain. Bigger Whoa!
Filthy Hippy. Take a shower and get a job! :P

[Lurker]

Are you sure you want to use the word "creation"?

[ghoulslime]

I know with certainty that I am insignificant. One peek at the night sky pretty much takes care of this concept for me. I might be a fool, too. What I believe or don’t believe won’t change the reality of my existence.

But my consolation is knowing that the bunny god hears and answers my prayers!

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/funnybunny.jpg

“I know that my redeemer lives!
What comfort this sweet sentence gives!
He lives, and eats alfalfa in the shed.
He lives, my ever-living head!”

[Rhinoqulous]

I'm feeling pretty damn significant right now. The Rhinoqulous is broke until payday tomorrow, but all the bartenders and waitresses love Rhinoq so much, they're covering my tab. It's good to have friends, especially ones who work in the liquor industry. :D

Rhinoq

[Lurker]

Hear Ye, Hear Ye!

Everyone who knows they are insignificant please start acting that way. Get out of the way and make room for those of us who believe we have significance. Failure to comply will only emphasize your foolishness.
;) :P

[ocmpoma]

Importance is, well, not very important. I am important to my kids, but to a billion or so Indians, I could die tonight and they would never even know I existed. However, the underlying point to this thread is that "we are all important to God." Whopee. This opens a slue (sp?) of questions, such as:
"Are you sure?"
"Why?"
"If a serial killing megalomaniac thinks that I'm important, is that a good thing?"
"If you're important to God, and God is important to you, why won't you leave the rest of us out of it?"
"So important that we'll be cast into eternal torment?"
etc
etc
etc

[Mog]

Isn't importance a matter of relativity? We are certainly important in the context of ourselves and our ecosystem. Given a certain scale, either everything is important or everything is unimportant. Why assume we're wasting time trying to prove we're important? We're all interconnected in some way. When I noticed this thread, that 20 year old Elvis Costello song suddenly popped in my head. Elvis Costello out of the 6 billion people on this earth popped into my memory, but he couldn't do this without help. He had his band, producers, etc, so they contributed to this song appearing in my memory. So is that good enough importance to me? That in some small way, each of our actions have an opportunity to affect humanity? For me that seems satisfying enough.

Its all a matter of scale anyway. What if you are right about a god creating this universe, but there are billions of other universes out there and this god suddenly seemed insignificant? Would that somehow diminish your importance?

[HeWhoAsks]

I'll gladly choose the former because I think it's better to believe I might be a fool then to know with certainty that I am a fool.
Either way, you're a fool. As I am. As we all are. "We're all bozo on this bus." So,

Carpe diem.

Or, in the immortal words of S. Theard (I have no idea who he is, but he's the lyricist for the song):

Hey, everybody, let's have some fun.
You only live once, and when you're dead, you're done.
So let the good times roll.
Let the good times roll.
Don't care if you're young or old: get together, let the good times roll.

[nvxplorer]

I like the quote from C.S. Lewis below. If it's true - if it's all just an accident - then we humans spend a lot of wasted time and energy convincing ourselves that we are somehow important when we're not. We're no more important than the spec of dust on your table or the gum on your shoe. If true, the most intelligent life form on the face of this planet is also the most deluded and the most foolish.
This should be corrected to say some humans waste a lot of time convincing themselves they are important. I'm no psychologist, but I think people can become self-consumed by the need to feel important/special/superior/etc. Much of the rejection of evolution comes from a revulsion that man and apes have a common ancestor (gasp!) "I'm more important than an ape. I'm special! I was created." I hear it all the time. Someone with a healthy dose of self-esteem has no need to compare and contrast himself with others. I'm not saying every believer lacks self-esteem, but for those people who do, religion provides a quick and painless method of elevating oneself to "of the devine" status.

Personally, I have no need to feel important whatsoever. Such thoughts never occur to me. The reverse is not true; certain people, pets and things are important to me. I feel this is a healthier and more realistic view of life. No matter how hard I try, I cannot assign my importance to others. That is entirely up to them.

More directly to your points. The idea that I am important on a cosmic scale is pure folly. If I cannot force any other human to see me as important, why would I even attempt to thrust my importance on the cosmos? If I needed to invent a reason and/or being to assign importance to my life, I would sooner seek professional help than delude myself into thinking such absurdities.

So in this sense, I agree with you. Those with active imaginations as to their importance are indeed deluded and foolish.

Now I don't believe it's true. Am I foolish for not believing it's true, or foolish for thinking my life, and all other life, has the slightest bit of significance? Nobody has the answer, however I'll gladly choose the former because I think it's better to believe I might be a fool then to know with certainty that I am a fool.
This is merely a twist on Pascal's Wager. Wager away if it makes you happy.

"If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents - the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else's. But if their thoughts - i.e., of Materialism and Astronomy - are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It's like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset."
-- C.S. Lewis
Lewis was an interesting person. A convert from atheism, if I remember correctly. The problem with this line of thinking is that it resolves a series of ifs to arrive at a conclusion of purpose. It also appears that he is presuming purpose in making the argument. It sounds like circular logic to me.

I read it this way:

Everything has purpose --
therefore, accidental occurrences and by-products cannot be believed because --
everything has purpose --
therefore, everything has purpose

[Lurker]

Personally, I have no need to feel important whatsoever. Such thoughts never occur to me. The reverse is not true; certain people, pets and things are important to me. I feel this is a healthier and more realistic view of life. No matter how hard I try, I cannot assign my importance to others. That is entirely up to them.
Everyone thinks they're important in some way, even those that claim they accept and know they are nothing special. Atheists have kids, get a job, go to school, take care of themselves, etc. Why? Just so you can live longer or enjoy your life knowing there's no reason for doing it? That's a reason, but a foolish one because you already know you are equally important as the gum on your shoe. It's like passengers on the Titanic playing shuffleboard and preparing for the next meal as the ship continues to sink. It's silly.

[whoneedscience]

Everyone thinks they're important in some way, even those that claim they accept and know they are nothing special. Atheists have kids, get a job, go to school, take care of themselves, etc. Why? Just so you can live longer or enjoy your life knowing there's no reason for doing it? That's a reason, but a foolish one because you already know you are equally important as the gum on your shoe. It's like passengers on the Titanic playing shuffleboard and preparing for the next meal as the ship continues to sink. It's silly.
Why? Because if you thought about it any other way, you would probably not pass on the genes that might have made you think that way. You seem stuck on the idea of a separate, Cartesian soul. Nonsense. The reality is that you are different from the gum stuck to your shoe only in that you are the result of four billion years of natural selection, and have an illusion of a soul that corresponds to it. That you also seem to be able to reason and contemplate your meaning is insignificant. That same Reason is also the result of evolution.

[Bighead]

Personally, I have no need to feel important whatsoever. Such thoughts never occur to me. The reverse is not true; certain people, pets and things are important to me. I feel this is a healthier and more realistic view of life. No matter how hard I try, I cannot assign my importance to others. That is entirely up to them.
Everyone thinks they're important in some way, even those that claim they accept and know they are nothing special. Atheists have kids, get a job, go to school, take care of themselves, etc. Why? Just so you can live longer or enjoy your life knowing there's no reason for doing it? That's a reason, but a foolish one because you already know you are equally important as the gum on your shoe. It's like passengers on the Titanic playing shuffleboard and preparing for the next meal as the ship continues to sink. It's silly.
I personally have a job, go to school and take care of myself so that I can have a more comfortable life. I don't believe that after I die some being is going to decide that I was too bad to go to heaven or good enough to not go to hell...and I really don't care. I am not stupid enough to think that if I just do whatever the hell I want, whenever that hell I want, that my life will take care of itself. We do all those things, job, school, kids, to have a more enjoyable/comfortable life. It's got nothing to do with importance.

[Lurker]

It's got nothing to do with importance.
You're right, importance is probably the wrong word. Meaning might be more accurate. I'm not saying atheists should stop living life, but you have to admit it’s kind of ironic (funny?) to see the people who know without a doubt they have no significance/meaning/purpose working so hard to “arrange the deck chairs” on the Titanic. I guess it’s something to do to pass the time.

[Bighead]

Well passing the time is really all anyone is doing right? You're passing the time till the "savior" comes back, and I'm passing the time until I start decomposing.

[nvxplorer]

Personally, I have no need to feel important whatsoever. Such thoughts never occur to me. The reverse is not true; certain people, pets and things are important to me. I feel this is a healthier and more realistic view of life. No matter how hard I try, I cannot assign my importance to others. That is entirely up to them.
Everyone thinks they're important in some way, even those that claim they accept and know they are nothing special. Atheists have kids, get a job, go to school, take care of themselves, etc. Why? Just so you can live longer or enjoy your life knowing there's no reason for doing it? That's a reason, but a foolish one because you already know you are equally important as the gum on your shoe. It's like passengers on the Titanic playing shuffleboard and preparing for the next meal as the ship continues to sink. It's silly.
You're evaluating me without knowing me, lurker. Blanket statements which include everyone cannot be made.

You are correct in that I go to work, etc., to survive. This has nothing to do with any feeling of cosmic purpose. I'm alive. All living organisms strive to live. This is nothing special or unusual; it's simply the nature of life. I no more need a sense of purpose than a blade of grass needs to understand why it is pushing toward the sun.

[nvxplorer]

It's got nothing to do with importance.
You're right, importance is probably the wrong word. Meaning might be more accurate. I'm not saying atheists should stop living life, but you have to admit it’s kind of ironic (funny?) to see the people who know without a doubt they have no significance/meaning/purpose working so hard to “arrange the deck chairs” on the Titanic. I guess it’s something to do to pass the time.
What exactly are you saying, lurker?

Life is it's own purpose. The type of purpose I think you're referring to is a human construct. There is no evidence whatsoever that the universe serves a purpose. It simply exists. I'm quite sure thousands of volumes have been written on this subject, but I can come up with simplistic philosophical questions on my own. Assuming some supernatural purpose to the universe, how could we know life is any more important than stars, for example? Perhaps god enjoys playing with star systems, and life is just the resulting side show.

God: "Damn, I love my stars. They are so cool! Check this out... Once I get this star positioned just so, all these weird things begin to happen on the third planet. I love stars."

The purpose of a deck hand on the Titanic is to arrange chairs. Why he would need to feel some cosmic purpose before performing his duties is beyond me.

[HeWhoAsks]

I'm not saying atheists should stop living life, but you have to admit it’s kind of ironic (funny?) to see the people who know without a doubt they have no significance/meaning/purpose working so hard to “arrange the deck chairs” on the Titanic.
The purpose of a deck hand on the Titanic is to arrange chairs. Why he would need to feel some cosmic purpose before performing his duties is beyond me.
Yes, we are all arranging deck chairs on the Titanic, but some of us are doing so in order to enjoy as much of the the view and each other before it sinks.

[nvxplorer]

Yes, we are all arranging deck chairs on the Titanic, but some of us are doing so in order to enjoy as much of the the view and each other before it sinks.
If I'm understanding you, I agree wholeheartedly.

Everyone has his own way of enjoying the view. I am a White Sox fan, and I spend three hours each day listening to games. Am I wasting my time? Am I denying my intended purpose on the earth? I think not. The idea of (cosmic) purpose never occurs to me. Each individual action I take serves some end, namely survival and happiness, but the type of purpose lurker refers to is a non-issue. There's a difference between an action having purpose, and my being having purpose.

lurker,
I'm not sure what purpose my being might have. Would you elaborate on what you think my purpose should be? And why would such a mindset be neccessary or desireable? The way I see it, (perhaps) you are beginning your thought process with a need for purpose. Once a person accepts and believes this, they are doomed, IMO. If one assigns a supernatural purpose to his being, how does he assess his progress? To me, this would seem to be a self-defeating, ever rationalizing way of life. Mental gymnastics in the extreme.

[Little Earth Stamper]

Well, Lurker, you seem to be saying that there needs to be an absolute standard of meaning. In other words, some cosmic force or being has to assign purpose to all things on an absolute scale. He has to say, "Okay, you rocks have less meaning then monkeys, and in turn you monkeys have less meaning then Humans."

Or, possibly he says "all of your lives have purpose; they are to be directed towards the following task."

Now, my question is a variation on my moral reletivity question: How can we know that god has authority to give us meaning or purpose? On what basis is meaning/purpose that is meted out by god different then that meted out by me?

[Kamikaze189]

What's your grand pupose then? Oh, that's right... You get to worship god. Then after you die, you spend eternity worshipping him more! ( or so you think :-p )

No thanks, I'll pick my own purpose. I may be insignificant, but I'm going to have fun while I'm here.

[Little Earth Stamper]

What's your grand pupose then? Oh, that's right... You get to worship god. Then after you die, you spend eternity worshipping him more! ( or so you think :-p )

No thanks, I'll pick my own purpose. I may be insignificant, but I'm going to have fun while I'm here.
My theory is that when people are little kids, there is always some aspect of Christianity that scares the crap out of them. For me, it was, and still kind of is, the idea that the people in Heaven do nothing but sing god's praises for all eternity.

All the time you're in heaven, constant singing. It would start to drive me mad, eventually.

[alaspooryorick]

Everyone has his own way of enjoying the view. I am a White Sox fan, and I spend three hours each day listening to games. Am I wasting my time?
Oh, if only the White Sox were terrible this year, I'd love to make a crack. Maybe if you were a KC fan you'd be wasting your time. ;)

Anyway:
So, to lurker, would you propose that if this life is "meaningless" we would take on a Jainist perspective? That is, do everything in our power to waste away for death? Personally, that's not my idea of a good time. Why do people climb Mt. Everest? Because it's there and they can. Why do I choose to live life to what I consider productive and quality? Because it's there and I can. You're thinking in absolutes. It's not like I go around murdering people and stealing stuff because just I don't believe I'll be sentenced to eternal damnation either. We do things that help us and our quality of life, it just depends on how grand a scale we're thinking.

[Rhinoqulous]

Everyone has his own way of enjoying the view. I am a White Sox fan, and I spend three hours each day listening to games. Am I wasting my time?
Of course you are. It's an objective fact that the Cubs are the greater of the two Chicago teams. :)

But they got nothin' on my Twinkies.

Rhinoq

[Lurker]

Another C.S. Lewis quote to ponder.

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too - for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning."

--C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

[Rhinoqulous]

Hey, just picked up "Mere Christianity" this weekend, going to look through it this week.

I remember one time, maybe 5-6 years ago, when I was in philosophy of religion and we had a test that covered some of Lewis' ideas. There were a bunch of us phil majors sitting in the philosophy lounge before the test going over some last minute stuff. This one girl from the class came rushing in, franticly asking us questions about the test. It was obvious she hadn't studied, and she was really annoying in class (she never did the readings, never contributed anything worthwhile in the discussions, etc.), so we had a bit of fun with her. When she started asking about the material on Lewis, we talked about Aslan the Lion, and the magic wardrobe and such. She was so confused, because she hadn't heard any of this before, and couldn’t find it in her notes, but she completely believed that this was what she was about to be tested on. If I remember correctly, she withdrew from the class after that test. Man, I used to be such an a-hole.

Rhinoq

[HeWhoAsks]

Another C.S. Lewis quote to ponder.

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too - for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning."

--C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
The universe has no meaning apart from what we give it. So his analogy with light and dark doesn't hold. We are able to create meaning merely because our brains are capable of manipulating abstract concepts, one of which is meaning.

Secondly, the choice between justice from God and justice as pleasing one's private fancies is a false dichotomy. We get our ideas about justice because we are social animals (as do other primates). Our social group helps to define our ideas about justice. Justice does not have to be reduced to a private whim without God.

[Little Earth Stamper]

Another C.S. Lewis quote to ponder.

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too - for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist - in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless - I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality - namely my idea of justice - was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning."

--C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
The universe has no meaning apart from what we give it. So his analogy with light and dark doesn't hold. We are able to create meaning merely because our brains are capable of manipulating abstract concepts, one of which is meaning.

Secondly, the choice between justice from God and justice as pleasing one's private fancies is a false dichotomy. We get our ideas about justice because we are social animals (as do other primates). Our social group helps to define our ideas about justice. Justice does not have to be reduced to a private whim without God.
Yes, to me arguing in modern times that god must exist because we have a sense of justice seems akin to arguing that god must exist because we have an ingrained sense of hunger.

Anyway, my view that the universe is unjust has never been the basis for my atheism, only for my non-Christianity; It's hard for me to reconcile a being who loves us as his children allowing us to experience even one assault, let alone the widescale wars and murders and rapes and concentration camps and gulags and inquisitions and earthquakes and tsunamis and debillitating diseases and brain damages that actually happen.

An unjust world is not proof that god does not exist, but proof that if he does, he doesn't care about us too much.

I mean, I love Tezcatlipoca with all my heart because he only wants credit for what he actually does; if he fucks up your life, he doesn't mind the criticism he says, "Yeah I'm fucking with you; what are you gonna do about it?". Meanwhile, if the Christian god starts pissing on your head he expects you to say "Thanks for the pleasing light rain, god!".