An argument for the existance of God.

[Taylor]

This is porbably the best argument I have heard for the existance God.

Before reading this note that I do not believe in God becuase of any human argument but becuase of what Jesus did on the cross. An argument like this are only a tool.

God exists it can be seen in the most simplest of objects, such as this cup which I am holding. Is it possible for this cup to move with out anything exerting pressure on it: the obvious answer is no. Every object needs a mover whether its a car a boat or an umbrella. If this is true, then how can athiest say that the world just came into existence by chance and had no real mover. Now I know you will say that it was this big bang that is the mover of the universe. This may seem satisfactory, but the truth is that it is no more then a smoke screen. For I could just ask why did the big explosion happen? You would say because these two comets hit each other. I could then say well why did they hit each other? Well because they were traveling in the same direction. Why were they traveling in the same direction? This kind of questions could go on to infinity. Because the answerer is only giving the intermediate causes. Eventually there has to be an ultimate cause that controls things which the bible clearly says is God.

[Kamikaze189]

Since I rule out god, I've come up with own idea of what caused the universe. Nothing. Before the universe, before time and everything... there couldn't be a cause, just an effect. It's the only thing that's ever happened without a cause. I know this seems illogical, but it really isn't, if you take that time didn't exist before hand. God or no cause? No cause, while not easy to imagine, is the better choice, imo.

And even if there was time, I'm sure god wasn't the cause, as he seems to have done nothing else... and even so, if he caused the big bang, how's that really effect us if he does nothing else.

[Amazonis]

God exists it can be seen in the most simplest of objects, such as this cup which I am holding. Is it possible for this cup to move with out anything exerting pressure on it: the obvious answer is no. Every object needs a mover whether its a car a boat or an umbrella. If this is true, then how can athiest say that the world just came into existence by chance and had no real mover. Now I know you will say that it was this big bang that is the mover of the universe. This may seem satisfactory, but the truth is that it is no more then a smoke screen. For I could just ask why did the big explosion happen? You would say because these two comets hit each other. I could then say well why did they hit each other? Well because they were traveling in the same direction. Why were they traveling in the same direction? This kind of questions could go on to infinity. Because the answerer is only giving the intermediate causes. Eventually there has to be an ultimate cause that controls things which the bible clearly says is God.
This theory is something i would expect a five year old to come up with! Its using the physics of earth and todays universe to explain something that happend so long ago that these laws of physics didn't exist. Before the big bang, there was no concept of time, and without time things cannot move (this is because movement is merely the warping of time, like gravity).

The theory also says that the big bang cannot have occured because there was no ultimate cause that created it. Well, according to this line of thinking, god could not exist either, because there would have had to be another ultimate event that created him.

[Mog]

The problem with the first cause idea is that it invokes infinite regress of a sort. I'd have to ask, why is god around? That forces me to create a meta-god. However, the meta-god in turn forces me to create a cause for it, so we gat a meta-meta-god, and so on ad infinitum. So this forces this god to be eternal and always there. However, if god is eternal, why can't the universe be eternal? Or to be more accurate, why can't the universe be part of a perpetual cycle of constantly spawning and constantly dying universes? Is there any good reason why the big bang wasn't followed up from a big crunch from a previous universe? Theres an even more awesome possibility. What if the universe itself is the inside of a black hole from an even larger universe? These answers to the first cause question seem much more feasable than the big god theory.

And its worth noting that the first cause argument doesn't really prove a Christian god. I was brought up with Jewish beliefs, and even from my viewpoint back then, the whole Christ idea didn't seem to make any sense. Why was it so important that he had to be the son of god? Why couldn't he be merely a crazy prophet like Moses or Samuel or Isaiah? Why is there suddenly this huge confusion between the son of god and God? Why would a god who was so unapproachable physically that you would die from looking at him directly suddenly show up at our doorstep? but I digress.

[alaspooryorick]

My problem with the prime mover theory is simple:

I am not a scientist, so I'll let someone else elaborate on why this theory is bunk from a scientific perspective. But let me nitpick the philosophical details of your argument.

Why shouldn't something have to create God then? This is where the argument disappears into the black hole of infinite regress. Sure, God is a great way to eliminate the "problem" of the "beginning," but logically, this argument is full of holes, not to mention that you are presupposing God by bringing the Bible into play. God can't exist because the Bible uses him as an explanation, because without God, there would be no Bible. Circular logic trap! Thirdly, this is no reason for God to actually exist. I can just as easily imagine that a leprechaun created the universe, and that is just as logical (or really, illogical) as the idea of God creating the universe.

I know I refer to him rather frequently, but take Spinoza, and say that God is just another word for the universe. And why not? If you insist that something "infinite" had to exist to create, it might as well be the universe itself.

You are presenting an old argument, although I forget the philosopher who originally made it. The problem is, it doesn't work (like most all of the "proofs" for God).

[whoneedscience]

For I could just ask why did the big explosion happen? You would say because these two comets hit each other. I could then say well why did they hit each other? Well because they were traveling in the same direction. Why were they traveling in the same direction? This kind of questions could go on to infinity. Because the answerer is only giving the intermediate causes. Eventually there has to be an ultimate cause that controls things
Perhaps if you had any understanding of the physics you're talking about before you try to use it in an argument, you wouldn't look like a five-year-old. Spelling would help too, but then that point has already been made.

Anyway, I would really like to know where you got the idea of the Big Bang as the collision of two comets. If I weren't mildly depressed that anyone could be so deluded, I would be laughing my ass off right now. This being the case, I'll tell you what I've told every other flaming theist: read A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking. He gives a very good description of cosmology and the Big Bang.

In the mean time, surely you must realize that your reasoning is blinded by your belief of "what Jesus did on the cross"? From a purely philosophical standpoint, the idea of an unmoved mover doesn't answer anything. It doesn't give you any information on the nature of that mover, and if anything it rules out the possibility of an active, omnibenevolent god. If you get anything out of philosophy and your years of debate schooling, however, it should be that reasoning is fallible without evidence.

Oh, and uncaused events happen all the time. Radioactive atoms decay, as do perfectly stable particles like protons. Occasionally, particles appear out of nothing and then annihilate, or dissapear and reapear in a position they could not reach had they travelled in a continuous path. All of these things happen without a cause.

Even if your argument were valid, you still have to explain what makes your god more reasonable than the thousands of others humans have created over the millenia, not to mention how and why he went about creating everything using means that follow well descibed laws.

[whoneedscience]

Any time, yorick. And it was Aristotle, I believe.

And get thee to a nunnery :D

[Bighead]

Probably the funniest argument I have heard for the non-existence of the xtian god was from Eddie Izzard:
((paraphrasing))
Genesis said in the begining god created the heavens and the earth, and blah blah blah, and then he made man....but god must have been standing there over whoever's shoulder saying "but befooore that he made dinosaurs, but they were kind of crap so fuck 'em".
xtian god made the dinosaurs, then he got pissed because the dinosaurs killed jesus when he came to teach them about the big G...apparantly a pteradactyl (spelling) cut his head off with a wing...so to get even, god turned down the thermostat a bit...and then just sat there for 65 million years going "doo doo doo....dum dee dum"...


check it out...I think it's on Eddie Izzard, Circle. It's either Circle or Dress to Kill

[snap crafter]

Your still in the snakes den Taylor, I don't think even the blind lurker would try to help you on this one. I see someone hasn't looked into metaphysics, I suggest you watch 'what the bleep do we know'. it rocked my world. Odds are, no one is right about the creation of the universe, especailly the 'it just happened' christians give. It could have been that a parrallel universe had caved in on itself causing enough force to explode matter and time itself into another untapped universe, but that's probably wrong.

[Taylor]

Sveral of you have pointed out,and rightly so that just becuase this mover exist does not mean that the mover is God

Your insight have been very good but I dont think this how we know God exist though if there hadnt been so many post I might have been able to defend that there must be an ultimate mover.

I believe in God because he has chosen me and revealed himself through the bible. I see no need to prove the existance of God and for every belief I have in Him. You say that I have to back up all my believes when you do not have poof for many things you believe. it does not make sense. For example every body hear believes grass is green. But can anyone here prove that the grass is green. No! but does that mean you dont believe grass is green. Of course not. You believe the grass is green becuase you trust that your eyes are not lying. it is the same with God I cannot prove that he exists but does that mean I dont believe that he exists. no! I believe that God exist becuase he has chosen me and revealed himself to me just as your eyes revealed that the grass is green. I believe athiest are like the color blind man that think the grass is another color. but no one can prove to them that the grass is green unless God opens thier eyes as he has done with me. Which I pray he will do for you. Until then you can mock and call me an idiot but just remember that when judgement day comes all your mocks and jeers against me and God will be repayed upon you in double. this is not a threat but merely the truth.

with this I leave you. No doubt you be glad and think that you have rid youself of a complete fool
But just remember this hope is only found in Jesus no matter how you mock him.

[Evil_Mage_Ra]

For example every body hear believes grass is green. But can anyone here prove that the grass is green. No!
You can do UV/Vis spectroscopy on a blade of grass and find the wavelength of maximum transmission, which will be in the region that most of us see as "green". This way, even colorblind people will be on the same wavelength (hehe, sorry for the pun) as the rest of us. Yay, science!

Now, what tests can you do for the existence of God?

[Crackerus Dadderus]

Evil_Mage_Ra - he, like most christians, is a coward and has decided to leave us. I guess the logic was starting to hurt his brain.

[Little Earth Stamper]

Hopefully he left to take some basic courses in logic and critical thinking.

I mean, among other problems, everybody knows that it was Quetzalcoatl's incarnation and flight that most perfectly illustrated god's ultimate feelings towards humanity.

I don't know who the heck this Christ guy was supposed to have been.

[Tenspace]

For example every body hear believes grass is green. But can anyone here prove that the grass is green. No! but does that mean you dont believe grass is green. Of course not. You believe the grass is green becuase you trust that your eyes are not lying.
There is no color. What we perceive as green is a representation created by our brain of a particular wavelength falling on the circuitry of our eyes. The brain assembles these images, and subroutines within translate the wavelength to a quale one would call green. However, about three to five percent of human males suffer from a form of color-blindness where the sensing of reds and greens is deficient. Red can vary from pink to orange, and greens usually end up as brown.

We can prove that wavelengths represent color. Most brains will translate the wavelengths the same way. Therefore, we can agree on what is perceived as color. What you are stating involves an individual's interpretation of this data.

it is the same with God I cannot prove that he exists but does that mean I dont believe that he exists. no! I believe that God exist becuase he has chosen me and revealed himself to me just as your eyes revealed that the grass is green.
I think it's safe to say that your metaphor would require God to be physical, since that's how my eyes reveal the greenness of grass.

I believe athiest are like the color blind man that think the grass is another color. but no one can prove to them that the grass is green unless God opens thier eyes as he has done with me. Which I pray he will do for you. Until then you can mock and call me an idiot but just remember that when judgement day comes all your mocks and jeers against me and God will be repayed upon you in double. this is not a threat but merely the truth.
I believe you have been brainwashed by your parents. That is not a mock or jeer, just a simple fact. Maybe "brainwash" is too strong a word. Let's use indoctrinated instead.

By the way, Taylor, if you are interested in the definitions of some of the words you may not understand, www.dictionary.com is a good reference source. For deeper definitions of words, concepts, etc. check out wikipedia.org.

I have some friends who are Jehovah's Witnesses. I met them at my front door when they came to visit. We struck up a great rapport, and they visited every few weeks last summer. One day, Ron brought his son by. The boy was well-versed in their flavor of science, telling me about million-year long God Days, verifiable evidence from JPL that the Earth stopped for a day, etc. We spoke for about an hour, and afterwards, I asked the father for permission to give the son the titles of a couple of books to read. The father agreed, so I suggested "Genome" by Matt Ridley, and "Hyperspace" by Michio Kaku for starters.

They have never returned to my home. I wonder what strife I caused in their lives by attempting to open their son's eyes to the reality around him.

I am assuming you are young, probably a teenager, and I share this story with you to help you realize that your worldview is wearing blinders, leaving you to focus on a reality defined within the narrow writings of the Bible.

Tenspace

[Rhinoqulous]

Your still in the snakes den Taylor, I don't think even the blind lurker would try to help you on this one. I see someone hasn't looked into metaphysics, I suggest you watch 'what the bleep do we know'. it rocked my world. Odds are, no one is right about the creation of the universe, especailly the 'it just happened' christians give. It could have been that a parrallel universe had caved in on itself causing enough force to explode matter and time itself into another untapped universe, but that's probably wrong.
"What the Bleep Do We Know?" Are you serious? There were two, maybe three facts in that movie, everything else was made up. The movie was put out by a cult led by a warrior spirit from Atlantis named Ramtha (http://www.ramtha.com/). Just thought I'd let you know that the movie was BS.

[Amazonis]

I believe in God because he has chosen me and revealed himself through the bible.
In other words all you have on your side is a fucking book!

You say that I have to back up all my believes when you do not have poof for many things you believe. It does not make sense.
No, you don't make sense, how can anyone be sooo fucking ignorant. :rolleyes:

For example every body hear believes grass is green. But can anyone here prove that the grass is green. No! But does that mean you dont believe grass is green. Of course not. You believe the grass is green becuase you trust that your eyes are not lying.
As people have already said, you can prove that grass is green (to the human eye).

It is the same with God I cannot prove that he exists but does that mean I dont believe that he exists. No! I believe that God exist becuase he has chosen me and revealed himself to me just as your eyes revealed that the grass is green.
God chose to reveal himself to you, did he? Im dead set serious when i say this, but you belong in a loony bin. If you think he is communicating with you, then i suggest that you seak treatment :|

I believe athiest are like the color blind man that think the grass is another color. But no one can prove to them that the grass is green unless God opens thier eyes as he has done with me. Which I pray he will do for you. Until then you can mock and call me an idiot but just remember that when judgement day comes all your mocks and jeers against me and God will be repayed upon you in double. This is not a threat but merely the truth.
Well, you can get fucked for that. Theres nothing more offensive to me than somebody telling me a whole load of shit about me going to hell, and that they will pray for me. Save your bullshit, the thought of you sitting on the fucking floor talking to an invisible man, begging him to save my soul. It makes me sick! You can take my fucking soul and shove it right up your arse! ! ! :P



With this I leave you. No doubt you be glad and think that you have rid youself of a complete fool
That must be the first correct thing you have ever said. You can pull my soul out of your arse a little now :lol:

But just remember this hope is only found in Jesus no matter how you mock him.
Jeebus? Nope never heard of him...

[Little Earth Stamper]

You know what's weird to me?

Taylor seems to have the goal of spreading the gospel. He brings up points that have been hashed out so often we can pretty much respond to them by taking stock answers from our "Common defenses of Atheism" folder. We don't even really have to do much thinking at all about his arguments, because they're just that lame.

Clearly, though, he had no idea his arguments have already been so thoroughly trashed by everybody who has ever thought about atheism.

But if he really wants to minister to others, shouldn't he stick around and learn why people believe different things from him, and thus learn which arguments for Christ might be effective, and which will just convince people he's an idiot and that they don't need god?

[peepnklown]

Taylor
It’s called “Intelligent Design…” and it doesn’t matter the wording it cannot be used in a debate since it creates a paradox.
It contradicts itself and cannot hold weight.
If the universe need a mover than the mover needs a mover and so on…

[Evil_Mage_Ra]

You know what's weird to me?

Taylor seems to have the goal of spreading the gospel. He brings up points that have been hashed out so often we can pretty much respond to them by taking stock answers from our "Common defenses of Atheism" folder. We don't even really have to do much thinking at all about his arguments, because they're just that lame.

Clearly, though, he had no idea his arguments have already been so thoroughly trashed by everybody who has ever thought about atheism.

But if he really wants to minister to others, shouldn't he stick around and learn why people believe different things from him, and thus learn which arguments for Christ might be effective, and which will just convince people he's an idiot and that they don't need god?
Then again, having 20 people call you a retard whenever you post can be overwhelming. I can't say I blame him.

[whoneedscience]

Then again, having 20 people call you a retard whenever you post can be overwhelming. I can't say I blame him.
Lurker and thomas have the intellect and security to handle it.

Only thing I can get out of his leaving is that we may have actually succeeded in getting him to think about his fundamentalist devotion.

[Paradox]

Taylor
It’s called “Intelligent Design…” and it doesn’t matter the wording it cannot be used in a debate since it creates a paradox.
It contradicts itself and cannot hold weight.
If the universe need a mover than the mover needs a mover and so on…
Thats not a paradox. A paradox is an apparently true statement or group of statements that seems to lead to a contradiction or to a situation that defies intuition. Intelligent Design is not a paradox as it actually does contradict itself.

[Little Earth Stamper]

You know what's weird to me?

Taylor seems to have the goal of spreading the gospel. He brings up points that have been hashed out so often we can pretty much respond to them by taking stock answers from our "Common defenses of Atheism" folder. We don't even really have to do much thinking at all about his arguments, because they're just that lame.

Clearly, though, he had no idea his arguments have already been so thoroughly trashed by everybody who has ever thought about atheism.

But if he really wants to minister to others, shouldn't he stick around and learn why people believe different things from him, and thus learn which arguments for Christ might be effective, and which will just convince people he's an idiot and that they don't need god?
Then again, having 20 people call you a retard whenever you post can be overwhelming. I can't say I blame him.
Well, true enough. Hopefully he'll learn how not to piss off the next bunch of atheists he encounters.

[Amazonis]

Well, true enough. Hopefully he'll learn how not to piss off the next bunch of atheists he encounters.
I doubt he ever will. People like him usually bury their heads deaper into gods arse when they feal their beliefs are under threat from logic :/

[peepnklown]

Taylor
It’s called “Intelligent Design…” and it doesn’t matter the wording it cannot be used in a debate since it creates a paradox.
It contradicts itself and cannot hold weight.
If the universe need a mover than the mover needs a mover and so on…
Thats not a paradox. A paradox is an apparently true statement or group of statements that seems to lead to a contradiction or to a situation that defies intuition. Intelligent Design is not a paradox as it actually does contradict itself.
Paradox
Definition 3 – An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.

[Nicole]

When ancient man felt the earth shake, he KNEW that God was angry. Dark matter is the 'magic' stuff that we're looking at now for possibly creating and shaping our universe. If some want to say that the design is work of God...well, you go right ahead. Just remember that we proved Earthquakes were a matter of tectonics and we're going to figure out dark matter too.
I hope that Taylor comes back with some curiousity but I have to agree with Amazonis.

[Blindwatchmaker]

This is porbably the best argument I have heard for the existance God.

Before reading this note that I do not believe in God becuase of any human argument but becuase of what Jesus did on the cross. An argument like this are only a tool.

God exists it can be seen in the most simplest of objects, such as this cup which I am holding. Is it possible for this cup to move with out anything exerting pressure on it: the obvious answer is no. Every object needs a mover whether its a car a boat or an umbrella. If this is true, then how can athiest say that the world just came into existence by chance and had no real mover. Now I know you will say that it was this big bang that is the mover of the universe. This may seem satisfactory, but the truth is that it is no more then a smoke screen. For I could just ask why did the big explosion happen? You would say because these two comets hit each other. I could then say well why did they hit each other? Well because they were traveling in the same direction. Why were they traveling in the same direction? This kind of questions could go on to infinity. Because the answerer is only giving the intermediate causes. Eventually there has to be an ultimate cause that controls things which the bible clearly says is God.
Bwwwaaahhhh! :lol:

This is just a rehashing of the William Paley's Watchmaker Analogy.

I refer you to its most absolute refutation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blind_Watchmaker

[Fisher]

I have to admit, the previous guy made a mess of these forum... but let me pick up the argument in a way, I don't support his theory about everything needing a mover, maybe what we've seen needs a mover but that's a limited view that human's have. Lets suppose though that God was outside of what we know as the known universe? That means he wouldn't need to follow time or physics, just like a programmer making a program he can alter it all he wants, and is not limited by it. I am no scientist, I do not know about big bangs and comets or not, I am... well... me, :p but I think something, either parallel universes, an awesome god, or even, dare I say it, our little green friend the leprechaun. Something had to influence the creation of the universe outside of what we view as physics. I choice my choice as god, I can't influence your choices because I have no proof on what this thing might be as well as none of you have. Sorry if I have bad grammar... I’ve been told I do, please forgive me! Lol

[calpurnpiso]

Amazonis wrote:

"You can pull my soul out of your arse a little now "

ROTFLMAO. Are you condemned and have a bad soul?.....well, that reminds me. The ancients did not know what AIR was. This mysterious force inhabited their bodies sustained life, kept sacred birds ( aka, FSMs=flying shitting machines) aloft, expressed the wishes of the gods, was seen in clouds and storms, produced mysterious lightning and LEFT the body when a persod DIED.

Air gave origin to the concept SOUL!!. Flatulence was viewed by the ancients as damned part of the "souls" that left the body at an earlier time. Imagine if the ancient Greeks and Romans had discovered Burritos and enchiladas as their Aztec contemporaries had? :)

Since the methane smell could be compared with that of sulfur (depending on what the 'soul" ate) and having a similar smell to the gases produced by volcanoes where Hades and its dog Cerberus dwelled. Ancient folks believe the soul of the condemned , last breath, exit the body from the back door and not from the front entrance, where the god created soul entered the body.......:)

[WITHTEETH]

I have to admit, the previous guy made a mess of these forum... but let me pick up the argument in a way, I don't support his theory about everything needing a mover, maybe what we've seen needs a mover but that's a limited view that human's have. Lets suppose though that God was outside of what we know as the known universe? That means he wouldn't need to follow time or physics, just like a programmer making a program he can alter it all he wants, and is not limited by it. I am no scientist, I do not know about big bangs and comets or not, I am... well... me, :p but I think something, either parallel universes, an awesome god, or even, dare I say it, our little green friend the leprechaun. Something had to influence the creation of the universe outside of what we view as physics. I choice my choice as god, I can't influence your choices because I have no proof on what this thing might be as well as none of you have. Sorry if I have bad grammar... I’ve been told I do, please forgive me! Lol
Why give credit to a god it could just be how the universe works. Then after guessing it is a god why worship this guess for the rest of your life. how did you figure it was the Xtian god, because its the local religion?

[Fisher]

Lol, Calpurnpiso, if my soul could exit through passing gas, I would so be ok with that. Personally I don't mind how it exits... just that it does :p. Why gives credit to God? Well, it could just be how the universe works, but I choice to believe in God, it is a matter of having faith in what I believe just as all of you have faith in what you believe, as in the existence of no god. Could I choice other Gods that could of created the Earth? Course I could of, I could very well choice to believe in Zeus, or Odin, the all father, but I don't make those choices because I don't believe them. It's like believing an apple is good or not, it's not necessarily wrong in the eyes of society; it's just what you view as better then other things.

[snap crafter]

Lol, Calpurnpiso, if my soul could exit through passing gas, I would so be ok with that. Personally I don't mind how it exits... just that it does :p. Why gives credit to God? Well, it could just be how the universe works, but I choice to believe in God, it is a matter of having faith in what I believe just as all of you have faith in what you believe, as in the existence of no god. Could I choice other Gods that could of created the Earth? Course I could of, I could very well choice to believe in Zeus, or Odin, the all father, but I don't make those choices because I don't believe them. It's like believing an apple is good or not, it's not necessarily wrong in the eyes of society; it's just what you view as better then other things.
That's all fine and good Fisher, All a matter of faith, Bring up dead gods... But when you have a religion, that has forced it's views on society, has withheld science for hundreds of years, breeds Aholes, Hates gays for no reason, then I'm gonna protest against it. I don't suppose you've ever, I don't know, researched another religion have ya? I suggest you read the satanic bible, it may give you a little insight as to how other religions tick.

[Fisher]

Actually Snap crafter, I used to be Pagan... and I’ve experienced allot of religions. I've never read the satanic bible, but it might be fun to research. Researching other religions is a passion for me; right now I am studying Greek and Atheism (as I do view atheism as a kind of religion). I don't hate gays at all. I don't hate any one. I have a few friends who are bi/gay and they're very nice people. Do I condone what they do? I don't think it's morally correct, but I am in no way worthy judging them myself and so I try to be there for them as much as I can, as I’m sure any of you would do for any of your friends. As for religion forced on people: I strongly don't agree on this. Forcing religion doesn't create that person a follower and I think it is wrong. Perhaps this was practiced in the past by such things as the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials (if there even were any true witches) and many other events through out history but luckily I am not attached to them, I am only attached to God, and how I view God I don't believe he condoned those at all, they were men who used Christianity as a tool to gain what they wanted. It was a horrible miss-use of it and it saddens me to know that it was in our history. But I hold strong to a loving God who cares for all.

[Nicole]

Actually Snap crafter, I used to be Pagan... and I’ve experienced allot of religions.
I'm curious what you mean by experience. Have you worshiped at their alters or just read about them?

(as I do view atheism as a kind of religion).
Exactly how do you view atheism as a religion? According to the Merriam Webster Dictionary religion is; (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance. Atheists worship nothing and take no leaps of faith that can not be supported by physical evidence. Commitment or devotion requires one to have unchanging ideals which most atheists don't.

I have a few friends who are bi/gay and they're very nice people. Do I condone what they do? I don't think it's morally correct, but I am in no way worthy judging them myself and so I try to be there for them as much as I can,
By stating that their actions are not morally correct, you are judging them.

Perhaps this was practiced in the past by such things as the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials (if there even were any true witches) and many other events through out history but luckily I am not attached to them,
When children go to American schools they, apparently, have to recite 'the pledge' which has the line 'under god' in it. That's forcing religion on defenceless children.

When people knock on my door with their smiles and pamphlets, that's forcing religion on me.

When the President of one of the most powerful countries in the world says things like;

"What we are going to do in the second term is to make sure that the grant money is available for faith communities to bid on, to make sure these faith-based offices are staffed and open. But the key thing is, is that we do have the capacity to allow faith programs to access enormous sums of social service money, which I think is important."
--George W. Bush, January 11, 2005
and

"I urge all Texans to answer the call to serve those in need. By volunteering their time, energy or resources to helping others, adults and youngsters follow Christ's message of love and service in thought and deed."
Therefore, I, George W. Bush, Governor of Texas, do hereby proclaim June 10, 2000, Jesus Day in Texas and urge the appropriate recognition whereof,
I could go on but I won't....anyways, when he does stuff like this, it's forcing religion down the throats of everyone.

There are countless examples of how religion is being shoved at us every day in all kinds of ways. To you, it's nice but for us, it's not.

[Philboid Studge]

as I do view atheism as a kind of religion
Does this mean that all people have some kind of religion? Is it possible to not have religion? What would we call it?

Welcome to the forums. Most of us truly appreciate the regular theist posters here, as they are a rare and treasured breed. On our better days, we treat them the way the Chinese treat their pandas, with respect and gratitude. Eventually we'll harvest their gall bladders. Anyway, welcome and enjoy.

[Tenspace]

Good way to put it, Philboid. The lack of "something" does not constitute the possession of a null "something".

Calling atheism a religion is like calling health a disease or baldness a hair color.

Tenspace

[Revmonkeyboy]

Fisher,

You claim that you are studying other religions and have been a pagan. As far as I am concerned the christians ARE pagans. The whole blood for sin and sacraficing your only son smells of paganism. I am glad that you are attempting to study something, but I think you should understand your own religion first. I have read your arguments on the forum and frankly you are not very well equiped to argue your points. You are repeating what you are told and NOT understanding much of it. All theist fall back to nonsense when they are pushed, but many can at least argue with better positions. You need to study the real history of your own religion. Then study our position. Pick up some good geology books. Read Origin of Species. Don't just read it, understand it. If you understand it then you will find it hard to argue with. But at least you would be able to debate from an equal position. Most of the people here understand your religion and understand science. That is how we came to BE atheist.

revmonkeyboy

[calpurnpiso]

Actually Snap crafter, I used to be Pagan... and I’ve experienced allot of religions. I've never read the satanic bible, but it might be fun to research. Researching other religions is a passion for me; right now I am studying Greek and Atheism (as I do view atheism as a kind of religion). I don't hate gays at all. I don't hate any one. I have a few friends who are bi/gay and they're very nice people. Do I condone what they do? I don't think it's morally correct, but I am in no way worthy judging them myself and so I try to be there for them as much as I can, as I’m sure any of you would do for any of your friends. As for religion forced on people: I strongly don't agree on this. Forcing religion doesn't create that person a follower and I think it is wrong. Perhaps this was practiced in the past by such things as the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials (if there even were any true witches) and many other events through out history but luckily I am not attached to them, I am only attached to God, and how I view God I don't believe he condoned those at all, they were men who used Christianity as a tool to gain what they wanted. It was a horrible miss-use of it and it saddens me to know that it was in our history. But I hold strong to a loving God who cares for all.
FYI. The etymology of the word Atheism is : A= without, Theos=god. IOW, NO GOD which means the absence of the belief in any god, Devil, supernatural nonsense, fairy tales, et al. As we all know, ALL RELIGIONS accept mythological concepts as empirical truths ( a form of psychosis IMHO)....ergo..atheism could not be defined as a religion.

Tell me, are your thoughts/mind produced by your brain with chemical reactions and electromagnetism or are those thoughts picked up from the divine/god like a radio picks up waves? Isn't the brain that makes us what we are? When a brain can't tell the difference between an absurd concept ( a religious fairy tale) and a tangible reality, is it not fair to say the brain has been infected by disease?

What's the difference between a belief, by an schizophrenia sufferer, that aliens have placed devices in his brain to monitor his thoughts and the ones of a Christian which suggest jesus extraordinary miracles are TRUE? Don't they both contained science defying supernatural occurrences? and if the Christian belief is viewed as true and not the other, why? ..:)

[ocmpoma]

"Lets suppose though that God was outside of what we know as the known universe? That means he wouldn't need to follow time or physics, just like a programmer making a program he can alter it all he wants, and is not limited by it."

Sounds good to me. While we're at it, let's assume that there are a multitude of beings 'beyond' the universe, each following whatever set of laws we can dream up, and having a giant food fight in Valhalla, except for the one's that are residing inside my nose hair, which is all of them. Also, we can assume that we are actually also 'beyond' the laws of this universe, but just don't know it, because the set of laws the we are assuming we actually follow is a set of one element: {humansdon'knowthattheyare'beyond'thelawsofphysics }. And we can assume that the laws don't really apply here, and maybe I just popped into existence three milliseconds ago, and this post is really written in French, but it looks like Klingon to you, although you are reading it in your mind as the Queen's English, ducky.

On second thought, how 'bout we assume uniformitarianism.

[Fisher]

Yes, I fully understand that I am not equipped to hold a point well enough, that's why I am currently on this site, to hopefully get better. I am a little young and have had lack of experience debating. Ocmpoma, I see it very possible that you could believe in that if you choice to. I have no problem with it. As for forcing religion down people's throats, well, obviously that is not totally true because there are atheists with in the US. I am sorry I seem sketchy, I don't mean to, I believe in all my points fully and they make sense to me, it's just getting them in text is the hard part. As for not knowing my own religion, well, I try to know it the best I can, and I hope to grow more to understand all religions as I progress through my life. As for atheism being a religion, I see believing in nothing as what they worship in a way, it is merely an opinion and not ment any offense to any one.

[snap crafter]

Actually Snap crafter, I used to be Pagan... and I’ve experienced allot of religions. I've never read the satanic bible, but it might be fun to research. Researching other religions is a passion for me; right now I am studying Greek and Atheism (as I do view atheism as a kind of religion). I don't hate gays at all. I don't hate any one. I have a few friends who are bi/gay and they're very nice people. Do I condone what they do? I don't think it's morally correct, but I am in no way worthy judging them myself and so I try to be there for them as much as I can, as I’m sure any of you would do for any of your friends. As for religion forced on people: I strongly don't agree on this. Forcing religion doesn't create that person a follower and I think it is wrong. Perhaps this was practiced in the past by such things as the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials (if there even were any true witches) and many other events through out history but luckily I am not attached to them, I am only attached to God, and how I view God I don't believe he condoned those at all, they were men who used Christianity as a tool to gain what they wanted. It was a horrible miss-use of it and it saddens me to know that it was in our history. But I hold strong to a loving God who cares for all.
Oddly enough, I don't think you understood what I posted. Someone versed in history can go into detail, but when I say a religion has done this, it has done it in the past, and your a part of it now as you believe it correct? Or are you some kinda weird agnostic that doesn't have a faith but has a belief in god? How can you judge men wrong or right when getting what they wanted? if it was truly against gods will why didn't... He kinda stop them if he's such an omnipotent being and all, or atleast make his will known. That's great that your god cares enough not to tell anyone anything for thousands of years on end, but really ya gotta back up logistics with... logic?

To be honest I only asked if you knew anything about other religions because every christian I ask says they don't. how did you come to the conclusion that christ was right, if you were really a pagan?
As for atheism being a religion, I see believing in nothing as what they worship in a way, it is merely an opinion and not ment any offense to any one.
I dont worship nothing... I don't even have 'faith' that it's true, it's that it's the most valid arguement for the beggining. Science has prompted this theory, I subscribe to it. worship includes some sort of act wouldn't it? I don't know, somethings not clickin'.

[ocmpoma]

Fisher -
My point is not what one can believe, it's the patent absurdity of some claims. I'm not a big fan of absurd beliefs - they cause trouble. People who believe that they are able to fly, or that they are the latest incarnation of the messiah, or that the messiah is coming soon, are more likely to do stupid things.
As an atheist, I feel almost duty-bound to dispel your belief that atheism is a religion. Religions are philosophies of life; that is, they are basically a set of guidelines for how one should live one's life. Atheism is nothing of the sort, and it certainly does not include any worship of any kind. While I realize that 'atheism is a type of religion' is merely an opinion of yours, it is one I would like to dispel if possible, as it is a misconstruction of what atheism is - it's similar to me claiming that Christians worship Satan.

[snap crafter]

Odd that you mentioned that ocmpoma. The other day I told a christian that they were satan worshipers since, in their dual-god system where Satan is needed, they are really the only ones who believe in satan (excluding muslims and jews) making them satan worshipers.

[ocmpoma]

Well, not to drag out an example I used which I hope made my point, believing that something exists and worshipping said thing are two different things. Thing. Thing. Thing.

[Fisher]

Unless your view on what is religion is different then the dictionaries. I view religion as more as a set belief as to what created the universe and what makes it keep going. Rather it involves worship or not I still think it is a religion, hence it is my definition. If you disagree that science explains either of these two then you can argue atheism is not a religion. Sorry for my confusing perspective :\

[ocmpoma]

I don't disagree that science explains what, if anything, created the universe and keeps it going. I also agree that religion does not necessarily involve worship. What I disagree with is your definition of religion. However, I will point out that your definition still does not fit atheism, as atheism has absolutely nothing to say about what created the universe or what keeps it going, except that it wasn't a deity. Keep in mind that Buddhists and Taoists are atheists. Atheism does not have any doctrine regarding creation or maintenance; it is not a religion by your definition. And, keep in mind that science (and humanism, and naturalism) and atheism are also unrelated. One can be an atheist, and think that science is complete BS; one can also be a scientist and think that Jesus is Lord.

Now, my own personal definition (that is, what I mean when I say 'religion') is a belief system which includes guidelines for living life and is founded on some sort of supernatural force or entity. Neither science nor atheism fit into this as neither is a belief about how to live one's life (one can simply ignore the supernatural aspect, since they are ruled out for the reason just stated).

Most dictionaries define religion rather similarly; ignoring the contextual meanings (such as William's 'religious coward'), dictionary.com's definition is:
1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as
creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
Which also excludes science and atheism.