Vercingetorix - Jesus XXX, The Prelude

[ghoulslime]

Vercingetorix was the leader of a union of Gallic tribes who fought against the invading Romans in the 53 BC.

To make a long but interesting story short; the armies of Julius Caesar surrounded the forces of Vercingetorix at the stronghold of Alesia. Vercingetorix tried to delay the Romans long enough for allied tribes to gather reinforcements to help break the siege. He went so far as to sacrifice the lives of all of the Gallic women and children in the stronghold in order to buy a few more days for his starving men. His stated priority was the preservation of his religion.

Ultimately, the Romans prevailed. Vercingetorix begged Caesar to spare the lives of his men, and sacrificed himself that they might live, thus preserving the sacred beliefs of their fathers.

Caesar accepted the surrender.

Vercingetorix languished in prison for 5 years, and was beheaded in 46 BC. He died that his followers might live.

Vercingetorix lived on in Gallic lore as a demigod. He was even revered by Romans. Statues of him were erected as far away as Greece.

It seems that self-sacrifice was a creed revered by many in the cultures of the time.

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/vercingetorix_statue.jpg

Vercingetorix - a non-mythology-based savior

[Rhinoqulous]

Vercingetorix, just rolls off the tongue, don't it?

[Paradox]

This threads title is clearly misleading.

[thomas]

This is exactly the sort of deliberate mis-reading of history that atheists use to try and defend their cause, but instead end up making themselves look like idiots.

Vercingetorix was the leader of a union of Gallic tribes who fought against the invading Romans in the 53 BC.
Correct, and how would anybody know this other than the Gallic Wars ? Or maybe Ghoul has some other secret document, or maybe he's relying on the legends made up many years after the event or maybe he wants us to believe that the Hollywood film a few years back is the "real story".

To make a long but interesting story short; the armies of Julius Caesar surrounded the forces of Vercingetorix at the stronghold of Alesia. Vercingetorix tried to delay the Romans long enough for allied tribes to gather reinforcements to help break the siege. He went so far as to sacrifice the lives of all of the Gallic women and children in the stronghold in order to buy a few more days for his starving men. His stated priority was the preservation of his religion.
In fact the Gauls let the citizens of Alesia leave the sieged town. The so-called sacrifice and his stated priority is not expressed, as far as I can see, in the historical record. Come on Ghoul offer up your sources.

Ultimately, the Romans prevailed. Vercingetorix begged Caesar to spare the lives of his men, and sacrificed himself that they might live, thus preserving the sacred beliefs of their fathers.

Caesar accepted the surrender.
In fact V offered to his men that either they could take him to the Romans alive or dead. No begging of Ceaser involved at all. And he had little choice being as how he was defeated.

Vercingetorix languished in prison for 5 years, and was beheaded in 46 BC. He died that his followers might live.

Vercingetorix lived on in Gallic lore as a demigod. He was even revered by Romans. Statues of him were erected as far away as Greece.

It seems that self-sacrifice was a creed revered by many in the cultures of the time.

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/vercingetorix_statue.jpg

Vercingetorix - a non-mythology-based savior
V was revered as a great warrior who defied the Romans against great odds. Show me one piece of historical evidence that says he was worshipped as a saviour god.

Oh, and here is my evidence (http://www.romansonline.com/sources/dbg/Indx7.asp). Do you have a better source than the Romans own account ?

[StillSurviving]

At least I have reason to believe this guy actually existed.

[Amazonis]

At least I have reason to believe this guy actually existed.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[ghoulslime]

This is exactly the sort of deliberate mis-reading of history that atheists use to try and defend their cause, but instead end up making themselves look like idiots.

Vercingetorix was the leader of a union of Gallic tribes who fought against the invading Romans in the 53 BC.
Correct, and how would anybody know this other than the Gallic Wars ? Or maybe Ghoul has some other secret document, or maybe he's relying on the legends made up many years after the event or maybe he wants us to believe that the Hollywood film a few years back is the "real story".

To make a long but interesting story short; the armies of Julius Caesar surrounded the forces of Vercingetorix at the stronghold of Alesia. Vercingetorix tried to delay the Romans long enough for allied tribes to gather reinforcements to help break the siege. He went so far as to sacrifice the lives of all of the Gallic women and children in the stronghold in order to buy a few more days for his starving men. His stated priority was the preservation of his religion.
In fact the Gauls let the citizens of Alesia leave the sieged town. The so-called sacrifice and his stated priority is not expressed, as far as I can see, in the historical record. Come on Ghoul offer up your sources.

Ultimately, the Romans prevailed. Vercingetorix begged Caesar to spare the lives of his men, and sacrificed himself that they might live, thus preserving the sacred beliefs of their fathers.

Caesar accepted the surrender.
In fact V offered to his men that either they could take him to the Romans alive or dead. No begging of Ceaser involved at all. And he had little choice being as how he was defeated.

Vercingetorix languished in prison for 5 years, and was beheaded in 46 BC. He died that his followers might live.

Vercingetorix lived on in Gallic lore as a demigod. He was even revered by Romans. Statues of him were erected as far away as Greece.

It seems that self-sacrifice was a creed revered by many in the cultures of the time.

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/vercingetorix_statue.jpg

Vercingetorix - a non-mythology-based savior
V was revered as a great warrior who defied the Romans against great odds. Show me one piece of historical evidence that says he was worshipped as a saviour god.

Oh, and here is my evidence (http://www.romansonline.com/sources/dbg/Indx7.asp). Do you have a better source than the Romans own account ?
Thank you for the link to a dissected version of Julius Caesar’s The Gallic Wars (De bello Gallico). I’ve already read it twice. Thanks anyway.

You think Caesar’s Commentarius is the only documention of Vercingetorix’s life? You silly boy! You didn’t do your homework! Again, you want Ghoulslime to be your tutor! Sorry, I don’t tutor dunces.

You seem to be uncomfortable with the story of Vercingetorix.

What aspect of his life makes you so defensive? :D

[ghoulslime]

This threads title is clearly misleading.
Sorry, dude. I'd throw in some porno, but I don't want people to think I'm a nasty guy. :D

[ghoulslime]

Vercingetorix, just rolls off the tongue, don't it?
...in the name of our lord and savior, Vercingetorix. Amen.

[whoneedscience]

The rhetoric in here is so thick you could fertilize all of Gaul.

I must say, Ghoul, that I've studied de bello gallico and never gotten the impression that Vercingetorix was worshipped. It does kinda fit with the Roman MO of worshipping anything that may get them laid, but I think this is a bit of a stretch.

Come one, don't you know that Christians are the masters of mythology?

[whoneedscience]

Vercingetorix, just rolls off the tongue, don't it?
You should try Livy: Metuis Fufetius.

Oh, five years of high school latin. Never long enough ago.

[ghoulslime]

The rhetoric in here is so thick you could fertilize all of Gaul.

I must say, Ghoul, that I've studied de bello gallico and never gotten the impression that Vercingetorix was worshipped. It does kinda fit with the Roman MO of worshipping anything that may get them laid, but I think this is a bit of a stretch.

Come one, don't you know that Christians are the masters of mythology?
There would be no reason why anybody should get this impression from Caesar. Caesar wrote to promote Caesar. Perhaps I wasn't clear when I implied that De bello Gallico is NOT good documention of Vercingetorix’s hero status. 'NOT' would be the key word here. I suggested that the answers are found elsewhere.

Perhaps my meaning was rendered obtuse by the nettlesome nature of the subject matter at hand.

And if you haven't already deduced it; I am being purposefully exacerbating in relating the account of this historical character. I am also being evasive in my responses to theist criticism; in order to occasion both:

- Discomfort in those Theists whose gods closely parallel many similarities of this story.
- A theist sticking his neck too far out on the chopping block.

Your sincere attempt to moderate my claim is noted.

Vercingetorix lived on in Gallic lore as a demigod. He was even revered by Romans. Statues of him were erected as far away as Greece.

[thomas]

Thank you for the link to a dissected version of Julius Caesar’s The Gallic Wars (De bello Gallico). I’ve already read it twice. Thanks anyway.
No problem. Always happy to help. Maybe you should have read it three times and then maybe you wouldn't have made your schoolboy mistakes in your initial claims ?

You think Caesar’s Commentarius is the only documention of Vercingetorix’s life? You silly boy! You didn’t do your homework! Again, you want Ghoulslime to be your tutor! Sorry, I don’t tutor dunces.
Yes, yes, more of your evasive nonsense when you don't have reasonable evidence. Its wearing pretty thin.

You seem to be uncomfortable with the story of Vercingetorix.
What aspect of his life makes you so defensive? :D
What I'm uncomfortable with is your over-reaching attempts to paint Christianity as a derivative of mythology without reasonable evidence.

[ghoulslime]

Thank you for the link to a dissected version of Julius Caesar’s The Gallic Wars (De bello Gallico). I’ve already read it twice. Thanks anyway.
No problem. Always happy to help. Maybe you should have read it three times and then maybe you wouldn't have made your schoolboy mistakes in your initial claims ?

You think Caesar’s Commentarius is the only documention of Vercingetorix’s life? You silly boy! You didn’t do your homework! Again, you want Ghoulslime to be your tutor! Sorry, I don’t tutor dunces.
Yes, yes, more of your evasive nonsense when you don't have reasonable evidence. Its wearing pretty thin.

You seem to be uncomfortable with the story of Vercingetorix.
What aspect of his life makes you so defensive? :D
What I'm uncomfortable with is your over-reaching attempts to paint Christianity as a derivative of mythology without reasonable evidence.
What would constitute reasonable evidence? I don’t believe this concept is within your feeble grasp. :)

[Amazonis]

What I'm uncomfortable with is your over-reaching attempts to paint Christianity as a derivative of mythology without reasonable evidence.
What would constitute reasonable evidence? I don’t believe this concept is within your feeble grasp. :)
What i find amusing is how he (and Lurker) seam to have an obsession with trying to get you to provide more evidence on things which are widely known as facts, however they themselves cannot provide one single peice of logical evidence to back up their belief in god :D

[Lurker]

What i find amusing is how he (and Lurker) seam to have an obsession with trying to get you to provide more evidence on things which are widely known as facts, however they themselves cannot provide one single peice of logical evidence to back up their belief in god :D
I'm sure if I asked you to give me evidence that proves the earth is round – a widely known fact - you'd probably reference some scientific data, pictures, etc. Nobody seems willing to do that here. "Go search google" is the only answer we get. I did that and I got a variety of answers, some contradictory to what GS claims. Should we trust rank amateurs with their storytelling or should we trust factual evidence like early writings, early archaelogy, early anything that helps us piece together the truth based on the facts?

I might believe some guy on Geocities.com IF he provides references to these things so I can look them up myself and see if he's telling me the truth. These people may be correct, but without sources I’m not going to take their word for it. Point me to a website that reveals their sources.

[CFett]

I just like the fact that the theists start to squirm whenever anything controversial comes up.
There's no:
"oh, that's kinda interesting that another self-sacrificing hero was so popular, i wonder if it says anything about humans how sacrificing heroes appeal to us"
there's not even:
"see, the goodness of christ's teachings reached so far down that even V was forced to take a page outta his book!"
no, there's only:
"you have no proof, get some, then we'll talk."

Sorry Ghoul, but i don't think we can say Vercingetorix was really worshipped, that may be a stretch, but we can definitely look at his life and the Christ parallels that're there.
It's too bad that the theists don't find this interesting. I really find it intersting that we as humans love sacrificing heroes. What more is there to give than your own self? Anyone who can give themself up for a greater cause has to be given their due. And i think that christ's inclusion in Christianity speaks of other people who've notice this.
Why not include in your religion this guy who was crucified (supposedly) for everyone? I mean, who can argue that christ was a good guy? It's pretty hard, and it's kinda like using Mr. Rogers (rest his soul) as a spokesperson. It's a really good marketing decision.

Wait is the movie the one with Rayden in it?

[thomas]

No, Christopher Lambert. Its no Braveheart that's for sure.

You have a good point about my responses on this thread. Although, my responses are somewhat conditioned by the general environment and attitude of the forum, and that of Ghoul in particular. Not that I expect anything much different on an atheist forum. I honestly don't recognize the "squirming" reference.

I'm very interested by the many myths and parallels around the world to the Christian story, but I think it is hard to dig through the many opinions on the subject and get down to hard facts.

[ocmpoma]

"...I think it is hard to dig through the many opinions on the subject and get down to hard facts."

Funny, I feel the same way about the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition.

[CFett]

It was the rayden movie! Who coulda guessed that my boredom one night, and the sad truth that most movies = crap woulda paid off eventually? It's no Braveheart, that's for sure, but there is something about Lambert's voice..that scratchyness that's kinda cool.
The squirming chrisitan is a generality, I apologize. It just seems that whenever a topic is brought up, Xtians get squirmy, and rather than attempt to even include this new idea into Xtianity, they just outright try to disprove it.

This response only strengthens a deeper, metaphorical meaning that I see in the fact that most Atheist love to discuss religion, and have a very open-minded outlook, and will approach a subject from all angles, whereas Theists are generally less likely to want to discuss religion, and will look at something from their view, and seemingly only that one.
Kinda like how Kingdom Halls have no windows.
In my mind, it should be the reverse. Shouldn't the christians wanna debate, and the atheists be tired of it? Now i'm going on a whole different tangent than Ghoul had in mind, i apologize, there'll prolly be a new post dealing with this in the next coupla days.

[Amazonis]

What i find amusing is how he (and Lurker) seam to have an obsession with trying to get you to provide more evidence on things which are widely known as facts, however they themselves cannot provide one single peice of logical evidence to back up their belief in god :D
I'm sure if I asked you to give me evidence that proves the earth is round – a widely known fact - you'd probably reference some scientific data, pictures, etc. Nobody seems willing to do that here. "Go search google" is the only answer we get. I did that and I got a variety of answers, some contradictory to what GS claims. Should we trust rank amateurs with their storytelling or should we trust factual evidence like early writings, early archaelogy, early anything that helps us piece together the truth based on the facts?

I might believe some guy on Geocities.com IF he provides references to these things so I can look them up myself and see if he's telling me the truth. These people may be correct, but without sources I’m not going to take their word for it. Point me to a website that reveals their sources.
I am not trying to claim that i know much about Vercingetorix. The point that i am making is that you seam very fond of nagging Ghoulsime for evidence on things. However, you are the one who beleives in a faith with absolutely no credible evidence supporting it, and tonns of credible evidence that disproves it. You are the one most guilty of jumping the gun, not Ghoulsime.

[ghoulslime]

What I'm uncomfortable with is your over-reaching attempts to paint Christianity as a derivative of mythology without reasonable evidence.
What would constitute reasonable evidence? I don’t believe this concept is within your feeble grasp. :)
What i find amusing is how he (and Lurker) seam to have an obsession with trying to get you to provide more evidence on things which are widely known as facts, however they themselves cannot provide one single peice of logical evidence to back up their belief in god :D
Congratulations, Amazonis! You win the prize. This is the ONLY reason why I made this post. :lol:

I knew they couldn’t stay away from the bait.

Not withstanding Ghoulslime’s intentional braggadocio and the frantic smoke being blown by our resident Christian apologists, the Vercingetorix story is solid.

And for those semantically-challenged individuals who keep taking Ghoulslime’s carefully-worded bombast out of context. Ghoulslime did NOT (<<< do you understand the meaning of this word in the English Language?) NOT say that Vercingetorix was worshipped.

One more time for the slow readers: (CFett, listen up)

Vercingetorix lived on in Gallic lore as a demigod. He was even revered by Romans. Statues of him were erected as far away as Greece.

Did you think I would throw this out at random, knowing that our defensive theist friends would jump right on it?

Vercingetorix was a REAL person.

The detail of Vercingetorix’s life is NOT recounted by Caesar, and rests mainly on the authority of Plutarch and of the historian Florus.

There are numerous Celtic legends with Vercingetorix as the larger-than-life protagonist, lot’s of different versions – all of them bullshit of course, they are LEGENDS. That these legends existed at one time can be easily ascertained by the purchasing or borrowing of almost any book on Celtic or Gaelic lore. Walk into a Barnes and Noble and read for yourself. “Celtic Warriors – Saint Martins Press – 1999” is one of them setting on my desk as I type this.

I plagiarized this sentence from the doctoral dissertation of my university English professor, James R Pinnels: Vercingetorix lived on in Gallic lore as a larger-than-life hero, if not a demigod.

As to being revered by Romans, before I establish this fact, let me ask a question to our friends in denial; would ballads and poems written by Roman poets suffice as evidence?

As to statues of him in Greece, would pictures be enough for you or would I have to take you to Greece and show them to you?

But nobody is still thinking that it is Ghoulslime’s intention to defend the details of Vercingetorix’s life, or ever was at the initiation of this thread, right?


As our wise Austrailian friend has so sweetly articulated.

What i find amusing is how he (and Lurker) seam to have an obsession with trying to get you to provide more evidence on things which are widely known as facts, however they themselves cannot provide one single piece of logical evidence to back up their belief in god :D
AND HERE IS GHOULSLIME’S POINT:

When Christians are faced with the uncomfortable reality of the many similarities shared by their dogmatic and superstitious belief system with so many others, they demand evidence. When evidence is provided they nay say it and demand more, ad infinitum.

When we demand quid pro quo, they try to circumvent the issue with all of the vitality they can muster. They make their vehement demands for evidence to cover the weakness of their logically-indefensible position.


So now Ghoulslime’s evil and cunning plot unfolds! Buwahahahaha!

Theists on this thread, provide me with ANY historical evidence:

1. That Jesus was a real person.
2. That He was the son of GOD.
3. That he was conceived of a virgin mother.
4. That he performed miracles such as; walking on water, raising the dead, etc.
5. That he was crucified.
6. That he died and came to life again.
7. That there has ever been a god who communicated with men.

No more red herrings please. No tricky tap-dances! Just the evidence.



And for Amazonis’ prize; dude, if you ever come to Los Angeles, the Fosters is on me, non stop.

[HeWhoAsks]

Well played, GS.

[Amazonis]

And for Amazonis’ prize; dude, if you ever come to Los Angeles, the Fosters is on me, non stop.
:cool:

[peepnklown]

I’d take a Bass over Fosters, hehe.

[ghoulslime]

I’d take a Bass over Fosters, hehe.
They both taste better if you pour them over a fine set of tits before drinking.

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/wettits.jpg

[thomas]

Theists on this thread, provide me with ANY historical evidence:

1. That Jesus was a real person.
2. That He was the son of GOD.
3. That he was conceived of a virgin mother.
4. That he performed miracles such as; walking on water, raising the dead, etc.
5. That he was crucified.
6. That he died and came to life again.
7. That there has ever been a god who communicated with men.

No more red herrings please. No tricky tap-dances! Just the evidence.
I'm game for this. First, lets set the ground rules for historical evidence. Do you think V and his history is an historical actuality based on Ceasar's Gallic Wars and Plutarch's Lives ? Or do you have some other criteria for historical actuality ?

[Evil_Mage_Ra]

Theists on this thread, provide me with ANY historical evidence:

1. That Jesus was a real person.
2. That He was the son of GOD.
3. That he was conceived of a virgin mother.
4. That he performed miracles such as; walking on water, raising the dead, etc.
5. That he was crucified.
6. That he died and came to life again.
7. That there has ever been a god who communicated with men.

No more red herrings please. No tricky tap-dances! Just the evidence.
I'm game for this. First, lets set the ground rules for historical evidence. Do you think V and his history is an historical actuality based on Ceasar's Gallic Wars and Plutarch's Lives ? Or do you have some other criteria for historical actuality ?
I think he just thinks Vercingetroix was a great man around whom many (untrue) legends were made, and that the same goes for Jesus.

[ghoulslime]

Theists on this thread, provide me with ANY historical evidence:

1. That Jesus was a real person.
2. That He was the son of GOD.
3. That he was conceived of a virgin mother.
4. That he performed miracles such as; walking on water, raising the dead, etc.
5. That he was crucified.
6. That he died and came to life again.
7. That there has ever been a god who communicated with men.

No more red herrings please. No tricky tap-dances! Just the evidence.
I'm game for this. First, lets set the ground rules for historical evidence. Do you think V and his history is an historical actuality based on Ceasar's Gallic Wars and Plutarch's Lives ? Or do you have some other criteria for historical actuality ?
I think he just thinks Vercingetroix was a great man around whom many (untrue) legends were made, and that the same goes for Jesus.
:D