Does society need god?

[Karma Police]

Well, does it? If so, does society, in turn, need atheists to make the convictions of the believers even stronger? Or some other motive? Anyone's thoughts please.

[WITHTEETH]

Society needs answers. Now that we have better ways to reach conclusions that do not include big leaps of faith, i believe we do not need a God figure. Then again, religions has helped many people out, its put a smile on their faces and the future brighter for them. Relgion isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Is it best to hate them and argue? no that isn't going to make the world a better place. its just a misunderstanding as i see it in my personal reality. Its best just just to talk to each other, communication is important.

[Jennifer]

I think there will always be God in the human psyche. It acts as a surrogate for too many things. Comfort from the fear of mortality, reassurance that justice will prevail. A feeling of specialness for the beleivers. Special hats....

[WITHTEETH]

I disagree. I read an article in time magezine saying the same thing you just mentioned, they called it the God Gene. Do we really need god? Nah, we need answers. some need hope and obideince also, but not a God figure. Try to imagine the world without religion, is it possible? could people go on living without this figure knowing its false? sure i do it, and many other people are already aware of it.

[Jennifer]

Yes, but we are a self selected group and we are missing the God gene ( I read that book also).

In a world of limited resources, not everyone will be well educated, and frankly some of them have more important things to worry about like eating and car bombs.

I'm not saying it's not a worthwhile cause, but I don't think the battle ever ends. I also don't think the battle for gender equality will ever end.

[Evil_Mage_Ra]

Huh? There's a gene for religious belief?

[Blindwatchmaker]

Huh? There's a gene for religious belief?

Religion is a meme, an idea that is spread throughout society by conditioning. I don't doubt that some people who may have a genetic predisposition for mental illness might find themselves attracted to that meme.

[Jennifer]

There is a book out that some humans are genetically predisposed to feeling the presence of a higher power...like you meditate and feel connected to the world...that you are all one. According to "Why God Won't Go Away" the God gene...that gene will prevent God from going away.

PS the Book is really dry and hard to get through.

[Blindwatchmaker]

There is a book out that some humans are genetically predisposed to feeling the presence of a higher power...like you meditate and feel connected to the world...that you are all one. According to "Why God Won't Go Away" the God gene...that gene will prevent God from going away.

PS the Book is really dry and hard to get through.
Sounds like usual theist babble, suppositions and assumptions to me. Religious belief is learnt, it isn't innate and you don't pass on learned knowledge genetically. You might know how to drive a car but your offspring will still need to learn to drive.

Religion is spread as all knowledge is, by conditioning. Have you heard of memes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

Humans tend to have a drive to understand and give meaning to themselves and the world around them. Religion is a cheap and easy meme to fulfill that drive.

[Jennifer]

Yes, I read Conciesness Explained (a much better book). But even Dennnett said that we have a genetic predispositions for different memes. He was talking about problem solving memes but why not the meme to beleive in God.

I'm not saying that people are born beleiving in God, but it is conceivable that you could be genetically pre-disposed to buying the con. And buying the con is a better survival trait....there are more of them than there are of us and they are reproducing faster.

[Blindwatchmaker]

Yes, I read Conciesness Explained (a much better book). But even Dennnett said that we have a genetic predispositions for different memes. He was talking about problem solving memes but why not the meme to beleive in God

I'm not saying that people are born beleiving in God, but it is conceivable that you could be genetically pre-disposed to buying the con. And buying the con is a better survival trait....there are more of them than there are of us and they are reproducing faster.
I'd need to see some kind of empirical evidence of genetic natural selection preference for any type of learned knowledge or behaviour.

Genetic selection may provide the physical attributes required to perform a task, if an ability at that task gave comparative advantage, but the understanding required to perform it is learnt.

The advantage theists have because of their comparative size is the extent in which they can condition the next generations, the perpetuation of the meme.

[Jennifer]

That it is an advantage is established in the numbers...they are growing at a faster rate than we are.

All that remains is "How is it an advantage?"

And who is to say that meme's don't have a physical component. An idea is a chemical reaction...the chemicals are part of your body...its physical.

[Blindwatchmaker]

That it is an advantage is established in the numbers...they are growing at a faster rate than we are.

All that remains is "How is it an advantage?"

And who is to say that meme's don't have a physical component. An idea is a chemical reaction...the chemicals are part of your body...its physical.
That you have an innate ability to learn doesn't mean you have an innate ability to learn any particular thing. Learned knowledge isn't passed on genetically, Culture isn't genetic. Dawkins was using genetic evolution and meme evolution as analogies.

Do your parents drive? Did you genetically inherit the knowledge of how to drive or did you have to learn, were you conditioned?

You may have genetically inherited physical attributes that could assist you to drive, long legs to reacch the peddles, a keen eye to spot problems of the road, but you didn't genetically inherit the knowledge of which peddle was the acccelerater, or even what accelerater meant.

[Karma Police]

Religion is like racism. You aren't born speaking passages from the bible, nor are you born saying "I hate blacks, let me kill them all." It is conditioned into us the way certain morals are conditioned into us. We are naturally born with morals saying "killing is wrong" "stealing is wrong" etc. We're also born thinking "pain is bad" so we find some way to overcome pain (ex. through mommy's kisses). The psychological thinking of the kiss making it better is how we overcome pain. Later on, when we find out people die, and we haven't figured out what comes after, we look for a way to overcome the pain of mortality (ex. religion). We are born genetically disliking pain. We are conditioned to believe in god in order to overcome the pain.

[Blindwatchmaker]

Religion is like racism. You aren't born speaking passages from the bible, nor are you born saying "I hate blacks, let me kill them all." It is conditioned into us the way certain morals are conditioned into us. We are naturally born with morals saying "killing is wrong" "stealing is wrong" etc. We're also born thinking "pain is bad" so we find some way to overcome pain (ex. through mommy's kisses). The psychological thinking of the kiss making it better is how we overcome pain. Later on, when we find out people die, and we haven't figured out what comes after, we look for a way to overcome the pain of mortality (ex. religion). We are born genetically disliking pain. We are conditioned to believe in god in order to overcome the pain.
:D

Very true, Karma (Radiohead fan?)

Can you think of any knowledge that you innately had?

[Jennifer]

>You may have genetically inherited physical attributes that could assist you to drive,

And of course those attributes would include some mental attributes. There are studies that show that men, as a group, are better at perceiving depth in spacial relationships....is it their absence of breasts that make it so, or that there brains are different.

I don't beleive in God, Blindwatchmaker, and I like making fun of Christians as much as the next atheist, but in a serious discussion I think its dangerous to let our perceptions of superiority get in the way of our observations of the religious. How do you know they aren't feeling something that we can't feel? It's not an unreasonable idea.

[Blindwatchmaker]

>You may have genetically inherited physical attributes that could assist you to drive,

And of course those attributes would include some mental attributes. There are studies that show that men, as a group, are better at perceiving depth in spacial relationships....is it their absence of breasts that make it so, or that there brains are different.

I don't beleive in God, Blindwatchmaker, and I like making fun of Christians as much as the next atheist, but in a serious discussion I think its dangerous to let our perceptions of superiority get in the way of our observations of the religious. How do you know they aren't feeling something that we can't feel? It's not an unreasonable idea.
:D

But it is a supposition, Jen. Depth perception is a physical attribute, created by dominant genetic alleles in the DNA make up. There are no genetic alleles for the predisposition for any particular knowledge or not.

If your Grandmas or Grandads or your mother or father have an indepth knowledge of thermonuclear physics, if you wish to have the same knowledge, you would have to start at the beginning and learn again.

The concept of god is a human one, it doesn't have any absolute truth to it. If you had a genetic predisposition to belief then it would need to have some absolute truth, it couldn't be a human concept.

[Jennifer]

>There are no genetic alleles for the predisposition for any particular knowledge or not.

I strongly disagree! To believe that is to say that
1. Thoughts are not physical things....so they are ghostly magical things? We are getting into dangerous territory here.
2. That we are all the same at the edge of the skull going inward?... Illogical
3. That what we learn and what we see is not influenced by what we feel. Try convincing a Schizophrenic that his hallucinations are hallucinations...he might on one level know that you are correct...but on another level know that you are wrong.

In any case..."you believe in God, cause you're stupid, lazy and ignorant. Now knock it off, and start acting like us." Is a tough sell, and I for one will enjoy the show.

[Karma Police]

First off, I am a die-hard Radiohead fan.
Secondly, I don't think he is trying to force atheism upon people.
Thirdly, thoughts are not physical things, nor are they ghostly magical images. They are like headaches with pictures (joke). Thoughts are just nonphysical images, the way Christians believe god is a nonphysical image. Now on one hand, we have the nonphysical image of a thought, which we have experienced. On the other hand, we have the nonphysical image of god, which most have not experienced, or who have experienced a physical thought (a schizophrenic person). By saying that the blind masses ignorantly follow religion would be in part true, because most have not had an actual experience of god. Some think they have, by experiencing nature, or a tragic event, or what they concieve to be a miracle. On the contrary, it is all exlained by science. An experince of nature, let's use an Aurora Borealis (I'm sure most know, but they are the Northern Lights), for arguments sake, can be beautiful. However, the beauty comes from the light refracting off the atmostphere, and electrons combining with the atmostphere, etc. A tragic experience, such as the death of a loved one, comes from the cause of death of the person (cancer, AIDS, natural disaster, etc.), and the belief in god stems from the psychological component of the griever who desparately wants to believe they will see their loved one again, and they are in a better place, not rotting in the ground. Now a miracle is different. There have been many accounts of people praying to rid themselves or a loved one of a disease. However, there have also been accounts of people who have not prayed who are also cured miraculously. Does is have something to do with a gene of the person, allowing them to heal? Or is it the touch of god? I'd place my money on the physical. (this is going to sound weak) Science will eventually find out what occurred inside the persons body that rid them of the disease. Maybe that will be how we find the cure for cancer. Hopeful thinking.

~Ryan

[Blindwatchmaker]

>There are no genetic alleles for the predisposition for any particular knowledge or not.

I strongly disagree! To believe that is to say that
1. Thoughts are not physical things....so they are ghostly magical things? We are getting into dangerous territory here.
2. That we are all the same at the edge of the skull going inward?... Illogical
3. That what we learn and what we see is not influenced by what we feel. Try convincing a Schizophrenic that his hallucinations are hallucinations...he might on one level know that you are correct...but on another level know that you are wrong.

In any case..."you believe in God, cause you're stupid, lazy and ignorant. Now knock it off, and start acting like us." Is a tough sell, and I for one will enjoy the show.
Thoughts are physical, but they aren't formed as a process of genetic planning. Why would we have cognitive processes?

[Nicole]

For some, religion is a conditioned belief but I think that anthropology has shown us enough examples of independantly formed religions to prove that at various times and places in history or prehistory, people have come up with their own ideas of gods without someone having taught it to them. So the question is why? Why did those people need to have a god?

I think that the answer is two fold. One on an individual level and another on the social level.

For the individual, I think that it's a matter of how you respond to certain stimuli. Things like fear of the unknown and grief are natural human emotions. We handle it differently. For example; To me, the idea of what came before the big bang is overwhelming and scary. I don't like to think about it because the idea is too big for my understanding. I could calm my fears by accepting that there was intelligent design or I could grit my teeth and keep thinking about it. It's all in how you deal with the questions that haven't been answered.

As for society; I think it's pretty evident that humans need something to control/protect them. We can't seem to behave ourselves. Historically and in prehistory religion fullfilled that purpose. 'God will make the earth shake if you do this or that'. Religion has also been responsible for some of our great achievements. Architecture has advanced greatly over the building of churches, temples and tombs. Just stand next to the Great Pyramid of Giza and see what religion can do.

However, your question asked 'do' we need god, not 'did' we need god.

Socially; no we could do without god. We have complex governmental systems that can take the place of 'do it or god will be angry' and the people who are advancing our society and technology are looking for the all-mighty dollar now, not the glory of god .

Individually; yes, we still need god. Those same individuals that created 'gods' out of nothing are still with us. Whether they feel a need for something bigger than themselves or just something to help them sleep at night, they still want it. We do what we need to do to thrive. Theists need god and I need chocolate. Neither are necessary to keep breathing but they do make the air sweeter.

[Jennifer]

Thoughts are physical, but they aren't formed as a process of genetic planning.
Your nervous system is a product of genetics and the way it dispenses chemicals is not? Of course it is.

From Nicole:
As for society; I think it's pretty evident that humans need something to control/protect them.
Yes, and I think the fact that we spend such a long period of time dependant on our parents (as animals go) contributes to desire for and attachment to the idea that "SOMEONE" will watch over us.

[PanAtheist]

I think the fact that we spend such a long period of time dependant on our parents (as animals go) contributes to desire for and attachment to the idea that "SOMEONE" will watch over us.
That's an interesting thought!

[Nicole]

I think the fact that we spend such a long period of time dependant on our parents (as animals go) contributes to desire for and attachment to the idea that "SOMEONE" will watch over us.
That's an interesting thought!
I agree.

[Philboid Studge]

That it is an advantage is established in the numbers...they are growing at a faster rate than we are.

All that remains is "How is it an advantage?"

And who is to say that meme's don't have a physical component. An idea is a chemical reaction...the chemicals are part of your body...its physical.
That you have an innate ability to learn doesn't mean you have an innate ability to learn any particular thing. Learned knowledge isn't passed on genetically, Culture isn't genetic. Dawkins was using genetic evolution and meme evolution as analogies.

Do your parents drive? Did you genetically inherit the knowledge of how to drive or did you have to learn, were you conditioned?

You may have genetically inherited physical attributes that could assist you to drive, long legs to reacch the peddles, a keen eye to spot problems of the road, but you didn't genetically inherit the knowledge of which peddle was the acccelerater, or even what accelerater meant.
The guru of the God Gene, Dean Hamer, addresses some of these questions here:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/154/story_15451_1.html

He does throw in some speculation as to why such a gene would have evolved in the first place:

"The final step was to account for the evolution of God genes. If Charles Darwin was right and natural selection favors some traits over others, what reasons can we find for the persistence of human spirituality? This is a matter for educated guesses, rather than exact science. But one of the important roles that God genes may play in natural selection is to provide human beings with an innate sense of optimism -- the will to keep on living and procreating, despite the fact that death is ultimately inevitable."

[Nicole]

The guru of the God Gene, Dean Hamer, addresses some of these questions here:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/154/story_15451_1.html

He does throw in some speculation as to why such a gene would have evolved in the first place:

"The final step was to account for the evolution of God genes. If Charles Darwin was right and natural selection favors some traits over others, what reasons can we find for the persistence of human spirituality? This is a matter for educated guesses, rather than exact science. But one of the important roles that God genes may play in natural selection is to provide human beings with an innate sense of optimism -- the will to keep on living and procreating, despite the fact that death is ultimately inevitable."
I took a look at that article. Interesting. If there is a gene that makes some people more suceptable to spiritual ideas then we really can't hold them responsible for their beliefs. It's like blaming people who get genetically transmitted illnesses.

I like your idea on innate optimism for natural selection of the god gene. Makes good sense. I also wonder if that feeling of spiritual connection to everthing around you(mentioned in the article) might prompt a group mentality which would increase survival.

[Philboid Studge]

I find it all interesting too, but remain skeptical of Hamer's methodology. Measuring a thing like 'spirituality' was not done with instruments but questionaires. The Dalai Lama and me on mushrooms would probably end up with a similar rating.

[Rhinoqulous]

Philboid's back! How was the Holy Land?

[Philboid Studge]

It was all I could hope for and more! There's nothing like seeing God on mushrooms to restore one's faith in atheism. Honestly, though: Amsterdam rules. Between the reasonable attitudes towards entheogens and the bike lanes, it is a fine, fine place.