A Priveleged Planet

[Heather]

I'm more into debate about creationism vs. evolution than direct atheist vs. theist debates, and I've just recently heard a lot of talk from the 'other side' about the theory that earth is a priveleged planet. The basic theory is that earth is a planet that is not only suitable for life, but was made with the intent of allowing humans to discover things about the universe - a sort of 'lab', if you will, and that earth was made by an intelligent designer.

Some 'evidence' for this theory is how we have near-perfect solar eclipses (helped with the Theory of Relativity and color spectrum), a clear atmosphere, and various other things that make earth a perfect planet for discovery.

Most of this is based on the book, A Priveleged Planet, by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay Richards. In your opinion, what would be a good way to refute this idea? I have some ideas, but I want the opinion of some of you who are far more intelligent than I. ;)

Heather

[Karma Police]

I'm sure you already had this in your head, and it's been said many times over, but those facts you gave do not prove a creator or an "intelligent designer". They're existence proves their own existence. The mere coincidence that everything works out nicely does not imply an intelligence. It implies a randomness. Nature works to create maximum entropy, or a state of disorder. In other words, nature strives to be random.

Also, what is the comparison to in this book? We have no evidence of life on other planets, so how can we say that we are "special" or "priviledged" when there could be another planet, equally if not more priviledged than us? The basis I assume they are using is the other planets we've seen in other galaxies, as well as our solar system. These planets have no life, hence, we cannot use them as a comparative object. The assumption that an intelligence created earth as a laborotory is flawed in and of itself.

Ryan

[Bighead]

I think it is clearly OBVIOUS that this planet was designed as a lab. It's the perfect place for us to discover...the meaning of life, the universe and everything. It was created on Magrathea to find the question. I believe that everyone in here understands that, and understands how the mice and dolphins have been running this little laboratory for quite some time now...I think it's just a matter of time before they figure out the what that elusive question is.

[ocmpoma]

Ah, the old anthorpic principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle).

Here's one of my favorite quotes:
'It is demonstrated,' [Pangloss] said, 'that things cannot be otherwise: for, since everything was made for a purpose, everything is necessarily for the best purpose. Note that noses were made to wear spectacles; we therefore have spectacles. Legs were clearly devised to wear breeches, and we have breeches.'
Voltaire, Candide (1759)

The reason that the conditions on the Earth are so well suited to life as we know it is that life as we know it evolved on the Earth. Furthermore, it seems to me that hurricanes, tornados, sub-zero temperatures, tsunamis, earthquakes, malaria, AIDS, and a host of other issues create less than optimal conditions for the vast majority of living things in a great many places. If I were to design a 'planetary lab', I would certainly limit such things to make them non-hazardous. Oh, and it would almost always be a balmy twenty degrees centigrade.

[Blindwatchmaker]

I'm more into debate about creationism vs. evolution than direct atheist vs. theist debates, and I've just recently heard a lot of talk from the 'other side' about the theory that earth is a priveleged planet. The basic theory is that earth is a planet that is not only suitable for life, but was made with the intent of allowing humans to discover things about the universe - a sort of 'lab', if you will, and that earth was made by an intelligent designer.

Some 'evidence' for this theory is how we have near-perfect solar eclipses (helped with the Theory of Relativity and color spectrum), a clear atmosphere, and various other things that make earth a perfect planet for discovery.

Most of this is based on the book, A Priveleged Planet, by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay Richards. In your opinion, what would be a good way to refute this idea? I have some ideas, but I want the opinion of some of you who are far more intelligent than I. ;)

Heather
The only way in which the earth was 'priviledged is that it had in its early environment the chemicals methane, ammonia and hydrogen, and ultraviolet light from the sun, the pretexts for primordial soup. It can't be written out, due to the size of the known universe, that these conditions haven't occured elsewhere, thus negating the 'priviledged' concept.

This is just typical theist supposition.

[Blindwatchmaker]

I think it is clearly OBVIOUS that this planet was designed as a lab. It's the perfect place for us to discover...the meaning of life, the universe and everything. It was created on Magrathea to find the question. I believe that everyone in here understands that, and understands how the mice and dolphins have been running this little laboratory for quite some time now...I think it's just a matter of time before they figure out the what that elusive question is.
Shame about the highway though!

[whoneedscience]

In your opinion, what would be a good way to refute this idea?
Refuting that kind of crap requires objective reasoning. Any argument you make will be entirely lost on someone without the ability to do so.

I have mentioned the anthropic principle several times, and ocmpoma described it pretty well, but I also like the argument that we have nothing else to compare ourselves to. As of today, we really only have detailed information on planets inside our solar system (and only really three of them are even potentially suitable for life as we know it based on size, distance from sun etc., and only two of those are known to contain or have contained any water, so our comparison right now is effectively one out of two, maybe three) and the detection techniques we use to find planets around other stars selects for those that are not life-friendly. Until we can build some more powerful telescopes, the best we can do is look for the wobble in a star caused by the rapid orbit of a massive planet, and look for the periodic change in emission spectra from those stars that could tell us that a planet has passed in front of it. Perhaps in a few decades we could gather information about water, oxygen and carbon dioxide content in some rocky planets, but for now there just isn't enough information to make any conclusion about how special we are.

In order to consider that our planet was designed, I'd have to see convincing evidence that we are the only planet in the universe remotely capable of creating or supporting life, and even that doesn't answer the issue by the anthropic princliple that if we weren't born on this planet we wouldn't be observing anything. Assuming the possibility of parallel universes, I'd have to be convinced that we are also the only universe in existence capable of supporting life. And none of this would say anything about what designed us or how they did it, so I would still consider it a ridiculous claim based on circular reasoning.

[whoneedscience]

The only way in which the earth was 'priviledged is that it had in its early environment the chemicals methane, ammonia and hydrogen, and ultraviolet light from the sun, the pretexts for primordial soup.
And that some of these conditions exist elsewhere just in our solar system (methane on Titan, for example, or water on Mars or Europa, or maybe ammonia on comets) already makes it highly unlikely that we were designed, unless our solar system can be proven to be the only one in the universe that has these kinds of conditions.

You can also change my one out of two/three argument to one out of maybe 15 or 20 if you consider moons around gas giants, although they are highly unlikely to be detected around other stars and we really don't know a whole lot about the ones in our solar system except for a few probe flybys. You might also consider comets and asteroids as they might contain organic molecules. Of course, if they do, that would completely kill the idea of a designed lab, and just that we see other bodies that exhibit partial capacity for life is already a strong argument against.

[Lurker]

...I'd have to see convincing evidence that we are the only planet in the universe remotely capable of creating or supporting life, and even that doesn't answer the issue by the anthropic princliple that if we weren't born on this planet we wouldn't be observing anything. Assuming the possibility of parallel universes, I'd have to be convinced that we are also the only universe in existence capable of supporting life. And none of this would say anything about what designed us or how they did it, so I would still consider it a ridiculous claim based on circular reasoning.
Instead of a long post, why not just say nothing would convince you. It would cut down on reading time. ;)

[Amazonis]

Earth is a perfect planet!? Where the fuck has this guy being for the past few thousand years? With the amount of social, environmental, humanitarian and economical hardships in the world today, i find it nearly impossible to fathom how anyone could possibly say such a thing. :(

[snap crafter]

Hey guy that used douglas adams, dolphins didn't run the laboratory, I think he never said specifically why they were here, I'm probably wrong. Don't you love it that christians always adapt their theories to the new advances in science? First was that the earth was only a few thousand years old, then when science began to start something that made sense the christians were all like 'Oh yeah, well maybe that was designed by god'. how suddenly their opinions change from one to another, I do believe 'intellegent designers' outnumber the creationists now don't they?

[Lurker]

Earth is a perfect planet!?
No. Privileged planet, perfect for discovery. Where have you been?

[Amazonis]

No. Privileged planet, perfect for discovery.
Ahh, yes. We have the privilege of social, environmental, humanitarian and economic problems on earth. Does that really make much of a diference? Your enhancing a simple mistake, but that does not change my point.



Where have you been?
Eating lunch. Does that help you at all?

[whoneedscience]

Instead of a long post, why not just say nothing would convince you. It would cut down on reading time. ;)
I assume you're only being half-sarcastic, and it is possible that I'm wrong. If a deep space emisson spectra shows, for instance, that ours is one of the only solar systems with oxygen or carbon, and thus water and organic molecules of any kind (which is completely plausible, and I've even heard that the rest of our galaxy is fairly devoid of oxygen, although I don't have any references for that), I'd need some kind of explanation. Not necessarily a god, but I'd need something and it would be reasonable to entertain the idea, if only for a moment.

The anthropic principle can dismiss a lot, but it's not exactly the greatest answer.

[whoneedscience]

I was merely trying to bring some evidence into the discussion :P

[Nicole]

I was merely trying to bring some evidence into the discussion :P
I appreciate your evidence. Most people use evidence to prove a point. In fact, that's the only way you can prove a point....oh wait, you could make stuff up.

[PissBoner]

Earth is a perfect planet!? Where the fuck has this guy being for the past few thousand years? With the amount of social, environmental, humanitarian and economical hardships in the world today, i find it nearly impossible to fathom how anyone could possibly say such a thing. :(
What hardship ?

Perhaps you should get a job.

Interesting how the most spoiled generation in the history of humankind can only whine and complain
about how terrible everything is.

Or let me guess, in typical do-gooder-do-nothing fashion you will now whine and complain about the people in
Africa and how its everyone else fault but your own that their lives don't live up to your expectations.

The earth is special, the only place we know of with intelligent life or live of any kind.

The fact that fuckwad losers like you can only see everything as sooo terrible is a reflection on your pathetic. miserable, unhappy life and not a reflection on earth, society of anything else.

I may be an atheist, but I can thank God I am not You.

[CFett]

Hey Pissboner, regardless of what you believe about creation or anything, what's your view of the current human situation then. Does the future look bright and cheery for you? From where we started to where we are now, if this is the only place we know of with intelligent, or any life for that matter, do you think we've, humanity as a whole, handled ourselves well?

If this planet is our lab, then I don't wanna know who in their right mind could continue to provide us with "grant money" all these years.

[PanAtheist]

Earth is a perfect planet!? Where the fuck has this guy being for the past few thousand years? With the amount of social, environmental, humanitarian and economical hardships in the world today, i find it nearly impossible to fathom how anyone could possibly say such a thing. :(
What hardship ?

Perhaps you should get a job.

Interesting how the most spoiled generation in the history of humankind can only whine and complain
about how terrible everything is.

Or let me guess, in typical do-gooder-do-nothing fashion you will now whine and complain about the people in
Africa and how its everyone else fault but your own that their lives don't live up to your expectations.

The earth is special, the only place we know of with intelligent life or live of any kind.

The fact that fuckwad losers like you can only see everything as sooo terrible is a reflection on your pathetic. miserable, unhappy life and not a reflection on earth, society of anything else.

I may be an atheist, but I can thank God I am not You.
PissBoner >> That is outrageously rude, and unwarranted, and utter failure to comprehend both this thread, and Amazonis' individual statements.

If you have some beef with Amazonis, about matter expressed elsewhere, then please express it at that place, and don't carry rancour forward to here.

As for "perfect" (and "imperfect") this is an invalid concept that the realizations of Darwin, and every other evolutionist, has thrown out the window.

And please note that I think that we are *all* extraordinarily lucky to be alive at all, and every one of us (who is not in extra-ordinary pain), shall be thrilled to be alive if they are sane.

That is no reason whatever to insult people who are acknowledging destructive and wasteful and unpleasant elements of life and world and animal/human activity. No reason whatever!

[Amazonis]

Earth is a perfect planet!? Where the fuck has this guy being for the past few thousand years? With the amount of social, environmental, humanitarian and economical hardships in the world today, i find it nearly impossible to fathom how anyone could possibly say such a thing. :(
What hardship? Interesting how the most spoiled generation in the history of humankind can only whine and complain about how terrible everything is.
I was not whining, i was simply pointing out that, while our planet is an amazing planet, there are still plenty of things wrong with it (mainly caused by humans).

Or let me guess, in typical do-gooder-do-nothing fashion you will now whine and complain about the people in Africa and how its everyone else fault but your own that their lives don't live up to your expectations.
I don't actually have a great deal of passion for humans (my passion is for the environment) however that does not meen i want to see thousands of them starve to death.

What is your point anyway? You have not made yourself clear. I fail to a point to your post.

The earth is special, the only place we know of with intelligent life or live of any kind.
Yes, i am awair of that. What is your point?

The fact that fuckwad losers like you can only see everything as sooo terrible is a reflection on your pathetic. miserable, unhappy life and not a reflection on earth, society of anything else.
My life is fine, i am not complaining about my life at all. But my comment that the world if ull of social, environmental, humanitarian and ecomomic problems is correct. Nothing in this universe is perfect, and that includes earth.

If you want to continue this then make a logical point, because calling me a fuckwad loser doesn't make the earth perfect, in fact is does the opposite.

[Nicole]

Earth is a perfect planet!? Where the fuck has this guy being for the past few thousand years? With the amount of social, environmental, humanitarian and economical hardships in the world today, i find it nearly impossible to fathom how anyone could possibly say such a thing. :(
What hardship ?

Perhaps you should get a job.

Interesting how the most spoiled generation in the history of humankind can only whine and complain
about how terrible everything is.

Or let me guess, in typical do-gooder-do-nothing fashion you will now whine and complain about the people in
Africa and how its everyone else fault but your own that their lives don't live up to your expectations.

The earth is special, the only place we know of with intelligent life or live of any kind.

The fact that fuckwad losers like you can only see everything as sooo terrible is a reflection on your pathetic. miserable, unhappy life and not a reflection on earth, society of anything else.

I may be an atheist, but I can thank God I am not You.
First of all; not cool. Slam the topic not the writer.

Second of all; why on earth would an atheist thank god for anything?

Thirdly(geez, shouldn't have started this counting thing); Perhaps instead of advising other people to get a job, you should travel around the world and get a good look at what you stated was the most spoiled generation. It's not pretty. Over one hundred million people do not have access to clean drinking water on our planet and that's just for starters.

Lastly; there are people out there that think humans have done a terrible job with the planet and should be replaced with whatever comes next on the evolutionary track. I personally think that we're salvagable and that there's hope for us yet but we certainly can't say that things are perfect here. Sticking our heads in the sand, ain't gonna cut it!

So yeah, keep optimistic but don't be unrealistic.

[ghoulslime]

...I'd have to see convincing evidence that we are the only planet in the universe remotely capable of creating or supporting life, and even that doesn't answer the issue by the anthropic princliple that if we weren't born on this planet we wouldn't be observing anything. Assuming the possibility of parallel universes, I'd have to be convinced that we are also the only universe in existence capable of supporting life. And none of this would say anything about what designed us or how they did it, so I would still consider it a ridiculous claim based on circular reasoning.
Instead of a long post, why not just say nothing would convince you. It would cut down on reading time. ;)
Why not draw us pictures with crayons, lurker? They might be more effective in getting YOUR message across. :D

[Lurker]

Why not draw us pictures with crayons, lurker? They might be more effective in getting YOUR message across. :D
You start using some of that 97% truth and I'll start posting in crayon. :P

[WITHTEETH]

Why not draw us pictures with crayons, lurker? They might be more effective in getting YOUR message across. :D
You start using some of that 97% truth and I'll start posting in crayon. :P
You guys are hilarious! :P

[CFett]

Pissboner?






Pissbooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnneeeeeeeeeeeeee eerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr?!?
Where'd ya go man?

[PanAtheist]

Pissboner hit and ran!

[Amazonis]

Hes got the good old John316 strategy: - SHIT AND RUN