Abortion, and How It Cut Crime

[PanAtheist]

The Raving Atheist likes to rave against abortion from time to time, and has, in the past, specifically stated that he is "anti-choice".

It is a wonder, then, that this board doesn't have a forum dedicated to the Abortion Controversy, where the save-the-sperm campaigners can fight their excellent battle for equal rights for the tiniest of humans.

Well who needs a forum?
This article from the London Times "Abortion, and How It Cut Crime [in the USA]" (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-1664578,00.html) can make a good thread.

[Jennifer]

Well Pan, I'm pro choice, but I take issue with the authors conclusion....it smacks of "crime gene."

[PanAtheist]

Oh, to me it smacked of "kids whose parent(s) can't afford to have them, and/or can't deal with having them, are far likely to find crime to be a practical help to them in living".

And that strikes me as a realistic hypothesis.

[Jennifer]

There was only one problem: they weren’t true.
...because the author says so? Studies are vaguely mentioned but never identified. What ever.

They were the very women whose children, if born, would have been much more likely than average to become criminals.
I can tell by the language that the author uses that this person is not pro-choice....like holding women responsible instead of parents. I think the article was written by someone who wanted to enflame the pro-lifers...and look it worked.

[alaspooryorick]

A friend of mine told me about something similar back in February that an American mathematician came up with. It statistically does make sense, although I don't know if I feel this is a primary cause to support choice (and I'm pro-choice).

I know this is going onto the slippery slope, but this thinking makes abortion a free-for-all, because look at the positive benefits! I think it's more important to genuinely help people in these conditions, rather than letting an abortion solve everything. Birth control, WIC, Access... I agree that it's a woman's right to choose as she shouldn't feel obligated to have an unwanted child, but she also shouldn't feel obligated to have an abortion.

[Jennifer]

Or we could go the other direction. If a Man and a Woman are standing in a room together, all ingrediants required to make a human are there and it is immoral for them not to procreate...so get too it. I don't care if he smells, I don't care how old she is...you take those blue pills dammit, becuase not bringing those sperm and egg together is denying human life and that is IMMORAL!

Its the desire to control women's bodies....a desire as old as marraige, brides changing their name, female castration, and foot binding that is driving the Pro-Life Bus. There is a study that shows that pregnant girls will take a fetus to term if the father tells them that he wants her to. So tell me, why aren't the people who can hunt and kill doctors hunting down these boys and pressuring them to let the girl know that they want it....because "saving life" is not what this is about. Pro-Life is a euphamism for no-choice...a biological drive in some men to make women slaves.

[ynotbegoodtoall]

Here is an excerpt from my other post, "The Godly Christlike Atheist" in the "Does God Exist Forum" http://ravingatheist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=981

<quote> A couple years ago when my wife was pregnant with our second child at 5 months we went in to see the doctor, hoping to find out the sex of the baby. We found out instead that the baby was going to die, because there was no amniotic fluid in the sac. Oligohydramnios, or lack of amniotic fluid. The fetus or baby’s kidneys did not develop properly and the baby’s heart rate was deteriorating. Amniotic fluid is necessary for all development for the baby, lungs, heart, oxygen flow, blood flow, etc. We were told that for the sake of my wife’s health, we should terminate soon or risk a deadly infection. So that is what we did. My wife underwent a D&E, (Dilation and Extraction) where they open up the vaginal cavity and take out the baby. Not a very happy moment in our life. We wanted this child so bad but there was absolutely no chance of survival, it wasn’t anything we did wrong, it was a simple abnormality that happened at the early stage of genetic growth. (Not necessarily genetic, or hereditary, but a circumstance of a damaged protein gene in the DNA structure, or something like that.)

Now what did we get as of support from family? Pretty much nothing. We were the butt of gossip by my wife’s ignorant family. (Ignorant meaning my wife’s family with very low theological and scientific education.” Gossip was started saying we aborted our baby, (third trimester abortion, would normally be disgusting to me, but this wasn’t an abortion.) Other gossip was started saying that the genetic abnormality was our fault because we are overweight, which would make sense to a retard, but anybody who knows anything about genetics would understand that a normal perfect baby is more of a miracle than that of one with abnormalities. Anyway, the religious godlike lovingness of mankind shined through once again. </quote>

Do I believe that women should have the right to chose! Hell yes! The extremists would prevent my wife from terminating our dying baby at the risk of her life and health!

However 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions are completely disgusting process if you ever researched them. In my opinion these late term abortions should never be done unless there is a health concern.

Early 1st trimester abortions do not bother me so much. I don't cry when my thousands of sperm/ejaculate die each day! Nor do you when your daughters, girlfriends, and wives have their period. (at least your not crying about the dying eggs, maybe from the frustrating hell they love to put you through when they are miserable.

I am all for the morning after pill, and I personally think it should be available at the high school counselor's office, or even in the girl's bathroom. Why should a teenager's life be ruined over a simple natural urge to "put out!" (lol)

Abstinance in today's society is just a call of ignorance. As a father I naturally wouldn't approve of my daughter having sex before 20, but I have to get real! I cannot control her and I definitely cannot control who she is going to be friends with. So as soon as my wife thinks it is time, birth control pills, condoms and other forms of birth control will become available for my daughter.

If my daughter somehow makes a mistake and chooses to have an abortion then we will support her with any decision she makes.

[Jennifer]

Ynotbegoodtoall - I'm so sorry that you and your wife went through that. My mom miscarried a child late in a pregnancy. I was too little to remember, but she told me later that people were incredibly calous. She was of course very depressed and her step mother (who never had children) said "Oh knock it off...It was just a lump of meat." Yikes.

In those days women didn't get tested unless they were really old for childbirth, which she was not. I'm sure she would be the first to tell you that she wish she had known that the child would not make it and had the option of a D & C.

[MrsMoe]

A woman gives birth at 25 weeks, can she kill it? No, but she can place it up for adoption.

A woman is pregnant at 24 weeks. The fetus will not likely (but could) survive outside the womb. So she can have the doctor cut off it's limbs, crush it's skull, and remove it from her uterus (this is how the aboortion has to be performed.) This is legal.

I feel early trimester abortions are acceptable due to fetal development stages, but abortions performed at 24 weeks can and do happen, and without medical reasons. A medical abortion in the second trimester I also find acceptable if there is a good medical reason. Something that gets under my skin is when people say second trimester abortions are rare. Not true. Here is a forum where pregnant women post etc etc - in this section it's abotu non-medical elective abortions - on the first page there is a 16 week and a 17 week post. Second page 24 weeks. *vomit* http://bbs.babycenter.com/board/pregnancy/pregnancygrief/1143243

Oh, and by the way, the majority of estimated due dates is off by several weeks. So I wonder if a 24 week old aborted fetus was really 26 weeks? Makes one wonder, doesn't it?

You know what? Tough toe toenails lady. Why the heck did you wait until the second trimester to abort? Why didn't you use birth control? I have no pity for these women. Tough shit. The man has to be responsible for the baby, and killing it shouldn't be an option.

[Rhinoqulous]

MrsMoe, you speak of responsibility, but by forcing a woman to remain pregnant you are reducing her to an object, an object whose primary purpose is reproduction of the species. We left the savanna a long time ago, we don't need every little blastocist to develop into poop factories. Women are more than their ability to reproduce, and to think otherwise is restricting the rights of women. You may think abortion is disgusting, but which is more disgusting: abortion or the oppression of an entire gender?

Rhinoq

[Amazonis]

While abortion helps society, i think its biggest benefit is less humans on the planet...

[Amazonis]

The Raving Atheist likes to rave against abortion from time to time, and has, in the past, specifically stated that he is "anti-choice".
The Raving Theist said that!? Oh well, you can't agrea with everyone on everything...