Christian church and their money

[Érico]

Where it says on the bible that you are supposed to give money to the church? Why is the Christian church so rich?

[alaspooryorick]

At least the Mormons put it in their Bible! ;)

[Evil_Mage_Ra]

Tithing is mentioned in Leviticus 27:30-32:

And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

[Amazonis]

Where *insert "does" here* it says in the bible that you are supposed to give money to the church? Why is the Christian church so rich?
I do not know the answer to that particular question, however just because it is written in their bible doesn't mean they will follow it. Christians only seam to obey the parts of the bible that give them personal advances in their lives, and pay no attention to the parts that don't. One example of this is how the bible states that humans should not be blinded wealth. However the christians are the most wealthy religous people on earth!

[peepnklown]

I do not recall it saying in the Bible to dump your life savings into the pocket of ministers and make them rich.

[Paradox]

Tithing is mentioned in Leviticus 27:30-32:

And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

The passages in Leviticus dont apply anymore under the new covenant, unless ofcourse the passages benifit the chruch. Then its all fine and dandy.

*carry on*

[Nicole]

Churches make up their own rules regardless of the bible...or common sense for that matter. Even if Leviticus doesn't apply anymore the traditions of the institution prevail.

[thomas]

Four things :

1) As a practical matter, churches need money to function ( salaries, heating, light etc ). In this respect it's just like any other "club" you join.
2) Christians pool money in a church to fund charitable works. My church sends out 52 short-term work teams a year, support a large number of people working in the field to assist developing countries and financially supports many other projects, locally and internationally.
3) Not all churches are rich, at least mine isn't. It does not operate at a profit
4) It's counter-cultural but Christians willingly submit to the authority of Jesus and therefore the authority of the Church. The issue isn't "how much of my money do I give to the church" it's "how much of Gods money do I keep for myself".

[Érico]

Four things :

1) As a practical matter, churches need money to function ( salaries, heating, light etc ). In this respect it's just like any other "club" you join.
2) Christians pool money in a church to fund charitable works. My church sends out 52 short-term work teams a year, support a large number of people working in the field to assist developing countries and financially supports many other projects, locally and internationally.
3) Not all churches are rich, at least mine isn't. It does not operate at a profit
4) It's counter-cultural but Christians willingly submit to the authority of Jesus and therefore the authority of the Church. The issue isn't "how much of my money do I give to the church" it's "how much of Gods money do I keep for myself".
May I ask how much of Gods money do you keep for yourself? I have never seen a priest dressed badly or catching the bus in fact many of them live a luxury life.

[Nicole]

Four things :

1) As a practical matter, churches need money to function ( salaries, heating, light etc ). In this respect it's just like any other "club" you join.
2) Christians pool money in a church to fund charitable works. My church sends out 52 short-term work teams a year, support a large number of people working in the field to assist developing countries and financially supports many other projects, locally and internationally.
3) Not all churches are rich, at least mine isn't. It does not operate at a profit
4) It's counter-cultural but Christians willingly submit to the authority of Jesus and therefore the authority of the Church. The issue isn't "how much of my money do I give to the church" it's "how much of Gods money do I keep for myself".
I congratulate you on giving to charity. It seems as though you have checked carefully to see where your money is being spent. I do wonder if your churches' charitible goals are sincere or rather just a cloak for missionary work. It seems to be the case for a lot of the religious 'works'. (not saying that yours is)

I also worry about religious organizations interfering with secular charitable groups. I give to a group that educates women about their rights which directly interferes with their Islamic religion. There is constant friction. If they want help from their community (church run), they have to submit to rules that deny them basic human rights. Another example might be birth control. One of the biggest problems for poor people is the lack of control they have over their family sizes. If they take help from Catholic charities then they aren't getting birth control.

As for dropping money in the collection plate; I think people should be responsible for their own actions. If you give money to your church and don't ask where the money is going, you're not showing any responsibility at all.

[thomas]

May I ask how much of Gods money do you keep for yourself?
No, you may not.

I have never seen a priest dressed badly or catching the bus in fact many of them live a luxury life.
I'm not sure about luxury, I think you are pushing the point. My father is a minister of a Church. He was earning a lower annual salary than I earned in the very first year I graduated. I honestly know of no minister or pastor that is "in it for the money". They'd be better off being lawyers or realtors or something.

[Tenspace]

3) Not all churches are rich, at least mine isn't. It does not operate at a profit.
Have you ever been to the Great South, the New Heartland of America, the Bible Belt?

Check this out:

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/sfe_campusshot.jpg

Their woship hall seats over 2000! You can't believe how big this place is unless you drive by it.

Just down the street in my sleepy little fishing village, we have the humongous Village Baptist Church, featured in this article (http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/8954).

There are hundreds, maybe thousands of these behemoths in the south.

Tenspace

[thomas]

I congratulate you on giving to charity. It seems as though you have checked carefully to see where your money is being spent. I do wonder if your churches' charitible goals are sincere or rather just a cloak for missionary work. It seems to be the case for a lot of the religious 'works'. (not saying that yours is)
Nicole, thanks for a thoughtful response. At least at the church I attend the motives of the majority of people seem to be sincere. They are motivated by a desire to help God's childrens, and by the self-sacrificial attitude of Jesus and his desire to assist the poor and needy. Now, that's not to say that if somebody asks "why are you doing this" that they don't get told, but that often isn't the direct aim of this kind of work. The church does also undertake direct outreach work related to convincing people about the truth of Christianity, but they are usually not directly mixed.

I also worry about religious organizations interfering with secular charitable groups. I give to a group that educates women about their rights which directly interferes with their Islamic religion. There is constant friction. If they want help from their community (church run), they have to submit to rules that deny them basic human rights. Another example might be birth control. One of the biggest problems for poor people is the lack of control they have over their family sizes. If they take help from Catholic charities then they aren't getting birth control.
I agree that a lot of difficult situations can arise out of these issues. I think the question to ask is wether on balance more good is being done than harm. I think often it is, but not always. A clash of cultures is often difficult, even the reverse of what you are suggesting ( i.e. liberal western attitudes being imposed on developing countries ) can be harmful. Hopefully, people can be made to see that their priority should be meeting the need of the other person, regardless of what it is.

As for dropping money in the collection plate; I think people should be responsible for their own actions. If you give money to your church and don't ask where the money is going, you're not showing any responsibility at all.
I sort of agree with this, except to say that I actually spend time looking for a church and leadership that I trust up front. And so on a day-to-day basis I'm really happy letting them oversee that money and make decisions about it.

[thomas]

3) Not all churches are rich, at least mine isn't. It does not operate at a profit.
Have you ever been to the Great South, the New Heartland of America, the Bible Belt?

Check this out:

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/sfe_campusshot.jpg

Their woship hall seats over 2000! You can't believe how big this place is unless you drive by it.

Just down the street in my sleepy little fishing village, we have the humongous Village Baptist Church, featured in this article (http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/8954).

There are hundreds, maybe thousands of these behemoths in the south.
And these churches are some of the least likely to operate at anything like a profit. Their costs are huge. And often the leadership teams are great pastors but lack the experience to run what is essentially a medium size corporation. There's a lot of debate about the possibility that these mega-churches can continue to operate long term. But even the mega-churches that are well managed don't really turn a profit, everything usually goes back into the community or to fund programs, staff etc. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to this.

Actually the church I attend has about 5000 people through the doors on a weekend, over three services. In fact, I'm inviting you all to service on Sunday at 11am pacific, online here (http://www.calvarycc.org/interim/services.htm). I know you're all going to be SO excited about coming along.:rolleyes:

[Tenspace]

3) Not all churches are rich, at least mine isn't. It does not operate at a profit.
Have you ever been to the Great South, the New Heartland of America, the Bible Belt?

Check this out:

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/sfe_campusshot.jpg

Their woship hall seats over 2000! You can't believe how big this place is unless you drive by it.

Just down the street in my sleepy little fishing village, we have the humongous Village Baptist Church, featured in this article (http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/38/8954).

There are hundreds, maybe thousands of these behemoths in the south.
And these churches are some of the least likely to operate at anything like a profit. Their costs are huge.
C'mon, you're kidding me....

And often the leadership teams are great pastors but lack the experience to run what is essentially a medium size corporation.
Umm... the leadership teams are the millionaires and billionaires that built the fucking things. Companies like HealthSouth, Harbert Corporation, Liberty Mutual, Books-a-Million, and others have hard-hitting executives sitting on the boards of their churches, and this is just in Birmingham (AL).

Village Baptist is the Church Away From Church for those displaced vacationers needing a dose of God. Again, it's funded and run by rich successful Christians.

There's a lot of debate about the possibility that these mega-churches can continue to operate long term. But even the mega-churches that are well managed don't really turn a profit, everything usually goes back into the community or to fund programs, staff etc. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to this.
I am saying that what you consider the exception, I have experienced as the rule.

Tenspace

[Tenspace]

In fact, I'm inviting you all to service on Sunday at 11am pacific, online here (http://www.calvarycc.org/interim/services.htm). I know you're all going to be SO excited about coming along.:rolleyes:
Do all church websites use the same stock "Happy Family" photo catalog? :)

Tenspace

[thomas]

Possibly, but in this case being in the media capital of the world, all the media is done by folks in the church, and I believe those are real people from the church, with real smiles.

[thomas]

I am saying that what you consider the exception, I have experienced as the rule.
I'm looking around for facts. I found a report that said the average income of megachurches (>2000 members) in 1999 was $4.8m with an average $4.4m expenditure. I also read a report somewhere (need to try and find it) that said the average megachurch was carry $5m of debt. I think the big money in Christianity in the US is made on books, tapes, CD, bumper stickers etc.

Anyway, I still don't think these people are in it for the money ( which may explain why I'm on the inside and you're on the outside....Hey, maybe that calpurnpiso has a point, I could be chronically gullible.....)

[Tenspace]

Possibly, but in this case being in the media capital of the world, all the media is done by folks in the church, and I believe those are real people from the church, with real smiles.
Noooo... Thomas, have you spent any time in media? The backgrounds are local, but faces like those are available by the hundred-thousands; just search the Mighty Internet for "stock photo library", pick a library, then search within the lib for "smile", or "concerned teen" - you'll see what I mean.

Of course, you could just ask them. I'm sure they'll hook you up with the web designer.

Tenspace

[Tenspace]

I am saying that what you consider the exception, I have experienced as the rule.
I'm looking around for facts. I found a report that said the average income of megachurches (>2000 members) in 1999 was $4.8m with an average $4.4m expenditure. I also read a report somewhere (need to try and find it) that said the average megachurch was carry $5m of debt. I think the big money in Christianity in the US is made on books, tapes, CD, bumper stickers etc.

Anyway, I still don't think these people are in it for the money ( which may explain why I'm on the inside and you're on the outside....Hey, maybe that calpurnpiso has a point, I could be chronically gullible.....)
I think you have a gullibility bias when it comes to religion, especially something as close to home as your own church.

With that said, I think you're smart enough to see what the board members are driving... remember, the priests are the front men - money is made in the closed offices.

Ten

[Amazonis]

Four things :

1) As a practical matter, churches need money to function ( salaries, heating, light etc ). In this respect it's just like any other "club" you join.
Well it would be great if the church actually paid for these things on its own, however this is not the case. Here in Australia and in many American states, the government gives them enouph money to pay for all these things and more, through tax exemption and hand outs.

2) Christians pool money in a church to fund charitable works. My church sends out 52 short-term work teams a year, support a large number of people working in the field to assist developing countries and financially supports many other projects, locally and internationally.
What do you meen by 'work teams'? What do these work teams actually do? Are you simply not going into detail because it is something we atheists may not agree with? Is work teams simply another fancy word for missionary's? You also fail to say what your churches other projects are, so i am skeptical as to wether these projects are there to help people, or simply to convert them to christianity.

These projects in developing countries sound good on the outside, but the chances are they are simply missionary's, forcing their faith apon others. And don't even think about telling me that these christian people don't mention their god to the people they are helping. Even though they are helping these people, they are only helping them so that in their minds they can have the comfort of a fairytale god who is happy with them.

And this selfishness has it's problems. Many christian humanitarian organisations working in Africa and several other places suffering from overpoulation, do more harm than good, by discouraging the use of contraceptives. Christian charities are also much more likely to overlook the long term environmental sustainability of their actions when they create a people that consume more resources.