Where is heaven??

[live in reality dude]

I am serious.

Want to know exactly where it is before I even think about going there. I don't
buy fairy tales, there are things I need to know for sure. Before I travel......

Can I bring my dog? My music collection? My friends? If not, I will be very
miserable. Is there even any food? There must be a McDonalds at least.

I grew up Catholic, but haven't been to mass for over 25 years, except for my
Mothers funeral. I sat there listening to a priest from some Island nation and just
wanted the hell out of there. Bad english.:rolleyes:

I have no intentions of being 'born again', just try to live and survive. Hate Bush
with a passion. And he must hate me. Praying will do me no good. It's kinda silly.
Happy to just live in reality, and know when I am dead I am dead. Does anybody
remember laughter??? We have become so anal it seems. Bush love$ war.

75 cent (rap star)

[Nicole]

Sorry, no heaven and you can only take your pets if you're an Egyptian Pharoh. Welcome to the site.

[Philboid Studge]

There must be a McDonalds at least.
That would be in the other place. Looks like you'll end up there with the rest of us.

Welcome to the forum.

[ghoulslime]

Tijuana Mexico! It’s as close to heaven as you’re gonna get!

[Sir Sin-O-Lot]

Heaven is a pipedream, located in South Miami and is open Monday-Friday 8 A.M- 10 P.M. Fridays are half price admission nights for the ladies.

[dogsdad]

Thanks you all,

Nice to feel welcome to this forum. You guys are real.

I am not sure where heaven is, but I have to bring my dog. And hope to meet a cat I used to have. Oh, and friends too. Maybe my mother. Is this possible?? I sure hope so. Do we get an apartment or a condo??

c-ya later, Phil (I need an icon changing)

[Psylence]

I have no intentions of being 'born again', just try to live and survive. Hate Bush
with a passion. And he must hate me. Praying will do me no good. It's kinda silly.
Happy to just live in reality, and know when I am dead I am dead. Does anybody
remember laughter??? We have become so anal it seems. Bush love$ war.
I think you would be a little rash to blatantly proclaim that Bush loves war. I also find it outrageously clever that you added the "$" in there as to imply that he is only going through with the war to gain some money considering how much has already been spent. The funny thing is that the plan for the war is to last longer than his term, ergo, it would only be logical to conclude Bush may actually not be working for his own accord.

The living conditions of Iraq were not humane. For anyone to believe that inteference was rash clearly needs to stop following the pseudo-intellects and start using common sense. I am sure that the whole rebellion thing seems cool in high school, but eventually you reach a stage of intellectual development in which you start thinking for yourself.

Contrary to popular belief, not all athiests are a bunch of mindless rebels looking for something to hate. While I do not believe that Bush is the best possible candidate, he is our President, and I will respect that. I am not going to hate him simply because he is a Christian and doing what he thinks is right. If you want to keep Christians from generalizing you, try to avoid acting like the common athiest generalization. Also, do not generalize Christians either, I have met in my time a great many brilliant Christians who respect my beliefs.

Sorry if I have come off a bit of a jerk, but I immensely dislike insults that have no support. If you want to criticize Bush, go for it, but try and show some reason to go with it.

[calpurnpiso]

Well. If the shoe fits.... Bush is not well. The man is lazy , ignorant and to top it all infected with the neurological disorder of Christianity which makes this retard ACCEPT the irrational, absurd and incredibly anachronistic FAIRY TALES of the Christian absurd beliefs as if they were a reality!.

This only show us, the man is not FIT to be POTUS!...but in a country were 85% of the people are infected with the same neurological infirmity which induces also gullibility, it only seems logical that this retard be elected to run the country! Alas, would anyone like to have a psychotic ignoramus to pilot the plane one has just boarded?....but in the US intelligence and mental health do not matter VOTES do! It is a christianity infected democracy after all.....the ignorant will be elected by the ignorant majority to lead them! Result?....costly mistakes and more mistakes i,e Iraq war, when the real culprit of 9-11 is still at large thanking our retard for eliminating Sadam. Now Bin Laden can use this ISLAM infected country as a stepping stone to more terrorism! Can we say VIETNAM? The true danger to US is North Vietnam....the man is having fun. Why our coward Christian crusader imitater, like Hilter, did not ATTACK him instead?..he is the real THREAT to his people, torturing them, starving them, etc and he HAS WMD's! Bush is the worst and most dangerous psychotic leader ever to lead a powerful nation since Hitle...and people are not only exterminated with poison gas!..the effects of this Christian retards delusional and infamous presidency will not be felt for many years after this moron leaves office!!

Where are the WMD?....Bush in his Christ-psychosis induced delirium LIED to everyone and his lies were accepted as true by those infected with the same mental illness and in their ignorance, BELIEVE him!....

Those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it!...As is Bush, Hitler was also infected with the Christian psychosis to the point that he wrote his own Bible. Mein Kampf...with time, I'm certain this Christ-psychosis imbecile who is unable to make mistakes ( in his own words he can not remember any) will write his OWN Bible...perhaps he will titled it. My Strugle While president...

There is a REASON why the educated atheist doesn't like Bush. He is not dislike for his appearance but his starving diseases ridden brain, which can not admit the mistakes he sees as truth!..:)

Mental illness doesn't discriminate, Bush could as well been a democrat ( i,e Zel Miller, another man infected with the psychosis..he sure made it obvious with his speeches)..

So...a crazy ignoramus is as crazy ignoramus does....:)

[peepnklown]

Heaven is having your head between two big…oh nevermind. :o

[JP]

The funny thing is that the plan for the war is to last longer than his term, ergo, it would only be logical to conclude Bush may actually not be working for his own accord.
No it wouldn't, he has ole Jeb and the rest of his cronies to please, and besides, he is setting up the corporate retirement just like Cheney.

The living conditions of Iraq were not humane.
How in the world would you know? Did you watch it on Fox? Tell me, are the living conditions in Iraq improved today?


For anyone to believe that inteference was rash clearly needs to stop following the pseudo-intellects and start using common sense. I am sure that the whole rebellion thing seems cool in high school, but eventually you reach a stage of intellectual development in which you start thinking for yourself.
What just fell out of your mouth?

Contrary to popular belief, not all athiests are a bunch of mindless rebels looking for something to hate.
You are speaking to a group of atheist, you know?

While I do not believe that Bush is the best possible candidate, he is our President, and I will respect that.
What the hell does that mean? "He is our President, and I will respect that" is a meaningless statment. Do you respect his policy on torture? The reason we went to War (NON-existent WMD)? How about his roleback of environmental protections, civil rights, do you respect those things about your president?


I am not going to hate him simply because he is a Christian and doing what he thinks is right.
I don't hate him because he is a cristian, and I don't give a shit if HE thinks he is right. He works for me, get it?

[Psylence]

No it wouldn't, he has ole Jeb and the rest of his cronies to please, and besides, he is setting up the corporate retirement just like Cheney.
Care to add some support to that statement?

How in the world would you know? Did you watch it on Fox? Tell me, are the living conditions in Iraq improved today?
Funny... I like how you make the presumption that I watched it on Fox to set acrossed the point that I am just a mindless individual believing the first thing I hear that might aid me in coming off a little more intelligent. And yes, I do believe the living condition in Iraq have improved. Any idea what the civilian death count in Iraq is so far? I will not lie, I have no idea, nor do I have the interest to look it up. However, whatever the number may be I am certain it staggers in comparison to the estimated 70-125 Iraqis killed every day Saddam was in power.

You are speaking to a group of atheist, you know?
Oh clever... sarcasm.

What the hell does that mean? "He is our President, and I will respect that" is a meaningless statment. Do you respect his policy on torture? The reason we went to War (NON-existent WMD)? How about his roleback of environmental protections, civil rights, do you respect those things about your president?
You know, there is no rule where you have to hate your country because you have run out of things to whine about. There is no person that can be agreed with on everything. While his reasons for going to Iraq were not the best, it was still needed. As for the rolebacks, under the current circumstances, I believe a few rolebacks are needed if not essential.

I don't hate him because he is a cristian, and I don't give a shit if HE thinks he is right. He works for me, get it?
So you think it is okay to hate a person you have never met in your life and probably never will? Also, please refrain from swearing, it makes people take you much less seriously.

[snap crafter]

Ok, psylence, you know that every government is corrupt don't you? That being said, I'll quote the good'ol' Daily show on your first retort, 'The truth just doesn't have the credibility anymore'. You ask for proof as though the bush family wouldn't hide everything that obviously led to them and them supporting big business and oil companies.

As for your second retort, Do you think the U.S. actually cares about the civilians in Iraq? We are there for oil, if that hasn't become obvious by bush's jumping from reason to reason for the Iraqi conflict, I don't know what is. As for 'saddam killin' his people', Do you know how long he was in power? Do you know how rare that is? I applaud the man for staying in power for that long, regardless of what he had to do to do it.

A sarcastic remark to a sarcastic remark, stop trying to sound better than everyone please.

What in the *heck* are you talking about, what does whining have to do with anything? Those are real problems he listed, you ride it off as 'whining'? grow up man. It wasn't needed at all, given all the countries that could have really used us like sudan and Iran, no let's go after Iraq, because it was 'needed'. Yes, your gonna have to provide some evidence to support that the ENVIRONMENT is not needed/essential.

I see nothing wrong with hating a person you have never met, if he stands for everything you hate, it is thoroughly justifiable. And come on man, that's what everyone in the 3rd grade says about swearing, instead of a real arguement attack the attacker. It doesn't make me take them less seriously, sometimes it gives me a chuckle (like with ghoulslime). Again, stop acting like your better than everyone.

[ocmpoma]

"While his reasons for going to Iraq were not the best, it was still needed."

I find this statement intriguing. Why, exactly, was it needed?

[calpurnpiso]

psylence wrote:

"There is no person that can be agreed with on everything. While his reasons for going to Iraq were not the best, it was still needed. "

Still needed? How so? One must remember that Iraq is an ISLAMIC country, with MUSLIM traditions, MUSLIM schools and MUSLIM history. As such, children are TAUGHT about the Christian Crusades of the 12th Century, which lasted for over 270 years!
A history that is deluded and Westernized when taught in American schools as well as the history of Columbus initiating the rape of the Americas.

Do they teach historical FACTS to the cadets in West Point or other American CHRISTIAN military academies? Of course not!...the scandal about religious psychosis discrimination at the Colorado Spring academy clearly shows this anomaly.

Where are our MILITARY commanders in Iraq got their military education at? Wasn't in Christianity infected military schools?...where IGNORANCE of history is endemic?

The results are clear!. Christ-psychosis infected retarded soldiers following the orders of a Christ-psychosis infected imbecile that believes in resurrecting saviours to be REAL, invading the WRONG COUNTRY and going after the WRONG dictator!....Ohh,,yeah...the Iraquis would receive our Christ-psychosis infected troops wearing Christian NAZI helmets, with flowers and open arms! This only shows IGNORANCE on the part of our commander in chief, the commanders in the field and the ignorant American public who supported this idiotic costly WRONG war!. Sadam despite his evilness, is a good guy compared to kim Young Ill of North Korea ( a man with real WMDs).He was NOT infected with Islam-psychosis as Bin Laden and was the GLUE that kept the religious nuts from killing each other, just as Marshal Tito did in Yugoslavia before the collapse of Soviet Union. One must see what happen in Sbrenika ( a masacred remembered today!), where over 8,000 people were killed by the Christ-psychosis infected Serbs for being MUSLIMS, while the Christianity infected UN troops did NOTHING!! Marshal Tito ( as Sadam did), not infected by Christ-psychosis had kept the country WHOLE during communism.

The Christian nouveau Crusader, destroyed: museums, homes, attempting at IMPOSSING American democracy on people that had their OWN WAY of governing themselves for millennia!..and to top it all Bush and his followers refer to the PATRIOTS wanting to get rid of the American INVADOR, as "insurgents", "Terrorists", evil doers..etc. Hey, didn't we American rebels did the samething to the Brittish during our war of Independence? and didn't they call us "terrorists" and "insurgents"?

Why doesn't our Retard in Chief, infected with Christianity, attempt to IMPOSSE American DEMOCRACY on his friends in Saudi Arabia?..Don't they have a religious police there patroling malls? Don't they cut off the hands of thiefs? Don't women are viewed as PROPERTY which must wear the veil?...so, this only show how BLIND and GULLIBLE and ignorant the American public truly are...the reason of course is Christ-psychosis induced ignorance where the perception of reality is eroded!

One must remember Iraquis suffered inmensely during the Crusades as did the Muslims, Jews and orthodox Christians for over 270 years, and they DO NOT FORGET...and the American troops in their Christianity iduced ignorance, do not realize this truth. We remind the Iraquis of the Christian psychopaths that invaded their land 800 years ago!....there is where the HATE for Christian America comes from...duh!

Bush is simple a Delusional arrogant incompetent hipocrite that ought to be committed to a mental institution and not allow to lead the country! The man is sick! Attacking the WRONG country only shows his distorted way of thinking.......:(

[thomas]

Cal, you are so full of rage and hate. I worry about you, I really do. Maybe if you drank less caffeine it might help a bit ?

[Lurker]

Cal, dude, you've got some serious issues to deal with. Take some time away from RA to go get some treatment.

[calpurnpiso]

Cal, dude, you've got some serious issues to deal with. Take some time away from RA to go get some treatment.
Of course! We all should deal with these issues. After all, the neurological disorder of Christianity is a very serious mental health problem in America, worst than HIV...or, is it perhaps that the acceptance by the vast majority of Americans that the Christian fairy tales are a reality is not a form of mental illness and is of no concern?. Perhaps if you think that universes are zapped into existence by ethereal entities and spirits control our very thoughts, you are the one in need of neurological adjustment not I. Remember, I can tell t he difference between fantasy and reality. Hmm..are you truly an atheist?.........:)

[thomas]

...or, is it perhaps that the acceptance by the vast majority of Americans that the Christian fairy tales are a reality is not a form of mental illness and is of no concern?.
I knew you'd come around to my way of thinking in the end. Was it the advice about laying off the caffeine that helped ?

[calpurnpiso]

...or, is it perhaps that the acceptance by the vast majority of Americans that the Christian fairy tales are a reality is not a form of mental illness and is of no concern?.
I knew you'd come around to my way of thinking in the end. Was it the advice about laying off the caffeine that helped ?
Did you bump your head?

The acceptance of a belief that Dead people were prancing around in the 'Night of the Living Ancient Dead" by MAtthew ( matt 27:52-54 ) is real, is not a sign of mental illness to you?. It is to neurologists. Isn't this a Christian fairy tale which the vast majority of Americans accept as a truth?.......Don't you? How is my observation of this tale as an irrationality compares with yours, which accepts it as fact?..:)

[thomas]

Did you bump your head?
Thanks for asking but no I didn't.

The acceptance of a belief that Dead people were prancing around in the 'Night of the Living Ancient Dead" by MAtthew ( matt 27:52-54 ) is real, is not a sign of mental illness to you?. It is to neurologists. Isn't this a Christian fairy tale which the vast majority of Americans accept as a truth?.......Don't you? How is my observation of this tale as an irrationality compares with yours, which accepts it as fact?..:)
I answered this question previously, but maybe you were over-dosed with caffeine when you read it, and have forgotten the answer ? Really, I'm worried for your credibility, having such a short memory.

[Lurker]

Cal probably drinks so much caffine because he spends much of his time posting on internet forums (http://lunaseas.net/forum/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=b569776eec8caa834f231cdec559e021&search_in=posts&result_type=posts) and tending to his jewelry business (http://www.octavius-jewelrydesign.com/). Poor guy, he hardly has time to sleep. I think sleep deprivation causes hallucinations. That explains it.

[thomas]

You're not only a lurker you're a stalker as well ?

[calpurnpiso]

Cal probably drinks so much caffine because he spends much of his time posting on internet forums (http://lunaseas.net/forum/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=b569776eec8caa834f231cdec559e021&search_in=posts&result_type=posts) and tending to his jewelry business (http://www.octavius-jewelrydesign.com/). Poor guy, he hardly has time to sleep. I think sleep deprivation causes hallucinations. That explains it.
LOL...hey, Colombian- German-native mix need caffeine to be creative, is in their genes....
:lol:

[Lurker]

LOL...hey, Colombian- German-native mix need caffeine to be creative, is in their genes....
:lol:
Next time don't put salt in your coffee. From one of your other posts

"Of course..my apologies. I wasn't thinking this morning, my brain awakened very slowly...I even put salt on my coffee..:)"

[calpurnpiso]

Thomas wrote:

"I answered this question previously, but maybe you were over-dosed with caffeine when you read it, and have forgotten the answer ? Really, I'm worried for your credibility, having such a short memory. "

Of course. I know you said you were under the Christ-psychosis anomaly....I just wanted for you to realized what you just had said and how absurd it was!....remember drinking too much coffee is not as bad as keep hitting one's head with a hammer as you obviusly do. Drinking coffee ( specially a good Colombian cup) doesn't make one's brain connections tell us, that resurrecting gods can save us for the sin committed by a mud-man and rib woman when they accepted a fruit offered by a talking snake!...

You better drink some, a good cup will awaken you and make you land in the real world...AHHHH...the aroma and taste....:)

[calpurnpiso]

LOL...hey, Colombian- German-native mix need caffeine to be creative, is in their genes....
:lol:
Next time don't put salt in your coffee. From one of your other posts

"Of course..my apologies. I wasn't thinking this morning, my brain awakened very slowly...I even put salt on my coffee..:)"
Hey....this happen to the very best of atheists. This would be a problem if one does it on purpose, to enhance "sweetness!"....:),

[thomas]

Of course. I know you said you were under the Christ-psychosis anomaly
Cal, this is such a new and exciting idea from you that I just can't wait to hear some more from you.

....I just wanted for you to realized what you just had said and how absurd it was!....remember drinking too much coffee is not as bad as keep hitting one's head with a hammer as you obviusly do. Drinking coffee ( specially a good Colombian cup) doesn't make one's brain connections tell us, that resurrecting gods can save us for the sin committed by a mud-man and rib woman when they accepted a fruit offered by a talking snake!...
No, it just increases your state of agitation and causes you to be consumed with rage, hatred and hostility.

You better drink some, a good cup will awaken you and make you land in the real world...AHHHH...the aroma and taste....:)
I'm actually feeling much better since I started trading posts with you. You've opened my eyes to a whole new way of thinking about the world. You've convinced me that my Christian beliefs are just a part of psychological make-up that I can do nothing about. Is my disease contagious ? Because if it is you want to come over here and see if you can catch it. The world is full of hope and love and optimism. You could do with some of this.

[Psylence]

Okay... I think I got most of it. Sorry if I missed anything, I had quite a bit to respond to.

I applaud the man for staying in power for that long, regardless of what he had to do to do it.
... Funny that in every election held, I think the combined total amount of votes for every candidate running against him was like five... but luckily, they do not seem to have much to say anymore.

Yes, your gonna have to provide some evidence to support that the ENVIRONMENT is not needed/essential.
You will have to forgive me, you got the wrong meaning from my statement. What I was saying was that cutbacks are essential. However, the environment is not nearly as bad as the hippies on CNN like to claim. There are more decorated individuals claiming that the environment is actually just fine and is more than capable of repairing itself.

I see nothing wrong with hating a person you have never met
There is a word for that, it is called prejudice.

Again, stop acting like your better than everyone.
Stop giving me reasons to attain that assumption. Joking... really.

I find this statement intriguing. Why, exactly, was it needed?
As I previously stated, the level of corruption in Iraq was unjustifiable, and inhumane, something had to be done. It should have been done a long time ago in fact. Do not get me wrong, I believe there is a lot of areas in which inteference is necessary that are not being looked into.

Perhaps Bush is just going over to Iraq so he can get some oil. Would you not do the same thing if you were in his position? Remove a tyrant, and work on the economy in the process.

Also, thanks for a mature response.

Still needed? How so? One must remember that Iraq is an ISLAMIC country, with MUSLIM traditions, MUSLIM schools and MUSLIM history. As such, children are TAUGHT about the Christian Crusades of the 12th Century, which lasted for over 270 years!
A history that is deluded and Westernized when taught in American schools as well as the history of Columbus initiating the rape of the Americas.
Great... let us hold a grudge for a thousand years. No one seems to hate money for any wars that has caused, or land for that matter. How about we start up an anti-hippy extremest group and dedicate our lives to destroying the land that has brought so many power struggles and death.

Can you confirm that Westpoint does not teach anything about the crusades? Or are you simply assuming. And for the record, I am not particularly fond of Columbus and believe he got what he deserved.

.the reason of course is Christ-psychosis induced ignorance where the perception of reality is eroded!
Is there a reason none of you complain about Hinduism? It seems like all I ever hear about is how horrible Christianity is. Are there any other religions you hate? It seems you have a bit of an elitest-psychosis. They could be right, and you could be wrong. You should respect their beliefs.

The man is sick! Attacking the WRONG country only shows his distorted way of thinking.......
And what may I ask is the right country?

Cal, you are so full of rage and hate. I worry about you, I really do. Maybe if you drank less caffeine it might help a bit ?
Yeah... let us try to cool this down a bit, try some decaf. Really, I apologize for any personal attacks that may have been inferred. I do not like swearing in debate as I always respect the other's opinion and swearing is usually applied in personal attack which I find childish. I will not pretend and say I have never resorting to such though.

[ocmpoma]

"As I previously stated, the level of corruption in Iraq was unjustifiable, and inhumane, something had to be done. It should have been done a long time ago in fact. Do not get me wrong, I believe there is a lot of areas in which inteference is necessary that are not being looked into."
Is the last bit that gets me. If the reason to invade Iraq was to remove a tyrant, why Iraq? There are many other tyrannical governments which are much worse, either in terms of populace tyrannized, extent of tyranny, etc. Why that particular country?

"Perhaps Bush is just going over to Iraq so he can get some oil. Would you not do the same thing if you were in his position? Remove a tyrant, and work on the economy in the process."
I'm not a 'means justifies the ends' subscriber. If helping the economy through unprovoked aggression (referred to euphemistically as a 'liberation') is a good thing, well, there's a certain fascist leader from the 30's we all know...
And the fact that Saddam was a tyrant doesn't quite justify it for me either. As I mention above there are quite a few worse tyrants in the world. I'm not to fond of the idea of my country going to war for what seems like a good idea on the face of it, when there are ulterior motives involved. The question that I think needs answering is, "Why Iraq?"
Also, I still don't see how it is necessary to remove Saddam from power by invasion. In this case, I think it has done perhaps as much harm as good overall, both for US security and interests, as well as for the security and interests of those in the Mideast. So, the answer is, no, I wouldn't have done the same thing in his position.


By the way, has anyone noticed (and been bothered by) the trend in US military operation names?
They used to serve some sort of purpose (you know, code names... code... get it?)
Now, I suppose they serve another purpose (begins with P, rhymes with cropaganda).

[antbite]

Happy to just live in reality, and know when I am dead I am dead.
Heaven is nowhere but in the minds of people who accept defeat as an immediate option, it's an output of miserable expectations, of false hopes. it was just created to be a place where people would belong into, to ease the emotional pain of dying, or the fact of it. :)

We just have to live our lives the way we want it to, better, the best we can ever think of it, help other people, create a new nation, bridge the gap, etc. when we die, it's the end, nothing more.

though I admit thinking of things like heaven makes the idea a lot more lighter, but it's not reality. better not think of it. just prepare yourself. make the best out of this world. :)

[ChiefOfAss]

Cal probably drinks so much caffine because he spends much of his time posting on internet forums (http://lunaseas.net/forum/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=b569776eec8caa834f231cdec559e021&search_in=posts&result_type=posts) and tending to his jewelry business (http://www.octavius-jewelrydesign.com/). Poor guy, he hardly has time to sleep. I think sleep deprivation causes hallucinations. That explains it.
So, what are you trying to say, Lurker, 'All Moses needed was a nap'?

[Philboid Studge]

Now, I suppose they serve another purpose (begins with P, rhymes with cropaganda).
Panda?

When the great campaign to liberate Messed-up-Potamia began, an article in the AP newswire described an "Operation Camel Toe" -- an oddly named strategem to say the least. I tried to find out more about it but saw no other references to it than this one AP piece; I assume that a 'boot on the ground' was having a bit of fun with a fresh-faced war correspondent.

[Philboid Studge]

By the way, has anyone noticed (and been bothered by) the trend in US military operation names?
Speaking of which, have you heard that the 'Global War on Terror' is now over (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/26/politics/26strategy.html?)?
I'm not sure who won; I'll have to check the box scores. Now if we could only end that pesky War on Drugs ...

[ocmpoma]

"Speaking of which, have you heard that the 'Global War on Terror' is now over?"
Well, you know what they say: A war by any other name...

[calpurnpiso]

Cal probably drinks so much caffine because he spends much of his time posting on internet forums (http://lunaseas.net/forum/index.php?act=Search&nav=au&CODE=show&searchid=b569776eec8caa834f231cdec559e021&search_in=posts&result_type=posts) and tending to his jewelry business (http://www.octavius-jewelrydesign.com/). Poor guy, he hardly has time to sleep. I think sleep deprivation causes hallucinations. That explains it.
So, what are you trying to say, Lurker, 'All Moses needed was a nap'?
LOL...Yup!....I'm making holy Jewelry, guarantee to give you inner peace and induce sacred erotic dreams of high value. Of course, blessing each piece of unique jewelry cost an additional $100.00 US, if a ceremony is performed when I wear my Flamen Dialis outfit, the additional cost is $500,- and up.......Colombian coffee and hot chocolate are free, but without psychoactive peganum harmala. If these substances are mixed with the drinks, where God ( Inti/ Viracocha) surrounded by angels will appear and talk to the person, then the price of the blessed jewelry will be much higher......:)

[ekimmike2002]

maybe you could specify where is heaven.......

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Psylence has evidently been drinking the bs kool-aid.

Oh, where to begin....

Let's see, first consider how the west has been screwing with that part of the world since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. That's a whole long history that I will not go into here, but it does have a lot to do with "why they hate us." I'll just touch on a few points. We helped put Saddam in power, we've supported and then abandoned the Kurds twice already, we helped create bin Laden, Bush the First lied about the First Gulf war, we've supported "evil" tyrants whenever they did what we wanted and tried to overthrow them when they didn't, we played on both sides in the Iran/Iraqi war in the 80's. Maybe I'll come back to all this later in detail if need be, but that is the first main thing to consider. The bottom line is that we haven't been treating them as we would have like to be treated for a long time and every place we've done the most mucking around has been more and more of a problem while places we have left alone (like Turkey) have been less of one.

Secondly, Ever since the collapse of the USSR, there have been a group of people who have felt that the mantle of empire had been laid at our feet and all we needed to do was pick it up. They have an ideology that has been formulating all through the 90's and they developed a kind of neo-imperialistic plan for what we should do. This includes everything we are currently engaged in including the overthrow of Saddam. This group is sometimes referred to as the neo-conservatives or neo-cons and many of them are members of a group called the Project for a New American Century (PNAC). In Sept. 2000, before the election and one year before 9-11, they released a report called "Rebuilding America's Defenses" which outlines their plan. The members of this group included; Elliott Abrams, Gary Bauer, John Bolton, Jeb Bush, Stephen Cambone, Dick Cheney, Eliot A. Cohen, Midge Decter, Paula Dobriansky, Steve Forbes, Aaron Friedberg, Francis Fukuyama, Frank Gaffney, Fred C. Ikle, Donald Kagan, Zalmay Khalilzad, I. Lewis Libby, Richard Perle, Norman Podhoretz, Dan Quayle, Peter W. Rodman, Stephen P. Rosen, Henry S. Rowen, Donald Rumsfeld, Vin Weber, George Weigel, Paul Wolfowitz, Dov Zakheim.
"At no time in history has the international security order been as conducive to American interests and ideals," the report says, "The challenge of this coming century is to preserve and enhance this 'American peace.' "

Iran, Iraq and North Korea are identified as potential targets in the same sentence, hence explaining the "Axis of Evil" remarks from Bush. "Past Pentagon wargames have given little or no consideration to the force requirements necessary not only to defeat an attack but to remove these regimes from power" it says.

It speaks of a "Pax Americana" where we will have to perform "constabulary duties" and act preemptively and unilaterally to obtain our goals. This requires "American political leadership rather than that of the United Nations."

The report recommends that the U.S. establish permanent military bases "within and beyond Western Europe and Northeast Asia, as well as temporary access arrangements for the long-distance deployment of U.S. troops" in addition to the roughly 130 nations where U.S. troops are already deployed. It refers to our troops as "the cavalry on the new American frontier" and says we need new bases in the Middle East, in Southeast Europe, in Latin America and in Southeast Asia.

The report recommends the repudiation of the anti-ballistic missile treaty, a strong commitment to a global missile defense system (otherwise known as "Star Wars") and the development of small nuclear warheads "required in targeting the very deep, underground hardened bunkers that are being built by many of our potential adversaries."

The report calls for control of the world's energy resources and the targeting of Iraq to achieve our goals because "While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

The report laments that the climate in America was not such that they could hope to achieve their goals in the near future without "some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor."

The attack on 9-11-01 is just what they were looking for.

These people are now in power, in key positions, with the event they needed to accomplish their goals. They came ready with the blueprints for empire already in hand, and they have been following those blueprints to the letter.

This is not some wild conspiracy theory, you can read the report yourself online at pnac.org and click on "Rebuilding America's Defenses."

The PNAC report soon became our new National Security Strategy.

According to CBS News, immediately after 9-11, PNAC member Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was telling his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq and began pushing the intelligence community hard for some link between the attack and Iraq. According to notes taken by aides who were with Rumsfeld in the National Military Command Center on Sept. 11, Rumsfeld is quoted as saying he wanted "best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit S.H. (Saddam Hussein) at same time. Not only UBL (Osama bin Laden)." "Go massive," the notes say; "Sweep it all up. Things related and not."

Though no real evidence was found linking Saddam Hussein with 9-11, six days later, on Sept. 17th President Bush signed a "TOP SECRET" document outlining the plan for war with Afghanistan and directed the Pentagon to begin planning military options for an invasion of Iraq.

Lacking hard evidence that Iraq had anything to do with the attack, The Bush administration began effectively conducting a campaign of misinformation, misrepresentation, and dissemination regarding the threat by Iraq to the United States of America.

Why should we believe they have any other goals than what they have already self-professed in the report?

I can get into the lies to sell the war another time to save space for another aspect of this situation....

Skipping back....

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, many countries in the Caspian Basin region came open to big oil businesses for the first time and they promptly acquired interests in these countries. The problem was getting the oil out. Until a pipeline could be built through Afghanistan, Iran, or some other willing country in the area, oil companies had to pay fees to Russia to use their pipeline, making the oil more expensive and the companies less profitable.

Once Bush Jr. came into office, his administration began negotiations with the Taliban for a pipeline deal through Afghanistan. Their desire to obtain a deal led them to back off investigating Osama bin Laden or other Saudi royals financing al Qaeda and to make other policy decisions that caused them to take their eye off the ball with regard to the threat from al Qaeda.

In the summer of 2001, the administration was becoming increasingly irritated with how the talks were going and, according to some sources, threatened the Taliban with carpets of gold (money from a pipeline deal) or carpets of bombs (a war).

It appears that some time in the summer, the pipeline deal fell through.

A Reuters reporter interviewed bin Laden in late June and reported that; "There is a major state of mobilization among the Osama bin Laden forces. It seems that there is a race of who will strike first. Will it be the United States or Osama bin Laden?"

On the day before 9-11, a CIA plan to attack al-Qaeda in Afghanistan - with support for the Northern Alliance, including a U.S. military invasion of Afghanistan - was put on Bush's desk, awaiting his approval and signature when he returned from Florida.

In order to attain these neo-imperialistic dreams, it is strategically necessary to have some control over the world's most important natural resource, oil.

Many of the main players involved in the Bush administration either have connections to the PNAC and/or the oil business.

During the nineties, current Vice-President (and PNAC member), Dick Cheney, was chairman and chief executive of the petroleum corporation; Halliburton. While working face-to-face with Saddam Hussein, Cheney and Halliburton did $73 million dollars of business with Iraq.

While making money through its dealings with Iraq on one hand, they were busy making deals that would put them first in line to take control of oil well fires in a postwar Iraq on the other.

Cheney stepped down as CEO for Halliburton before becoming Vice-President, but he continues to receive a deferred (and guaranteed) income of as much as $1 million annually.

In February 2003, the United States Agency for International Development (USAID) requested proposals to bid on a contract to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure in the aftermath of war. The request was sent to at least five U.S. firms - the Bechtel Group, Fluor Corporation, Parsons Corporation, the Louis Berger Group, and a subsidiary of Halliburton; Kellogg Brown & Root.

Despite Halliburton being under investigation for its accounting practices while Cheney was in charge, Brown & Root have already made $300 million from a contract with the Department of Defense to build cells for detainees in Guantanamo Bay in Cuba and will win its fair share of contracts to rebuild postwar Iraq.

In March 2003, the Pentagon announced it would use the plan developed by Brown & Root - to put out oil well fires in postwar Iraq, and have awarded Brown & Root the contract to do it.

The Pentagon has classified how the contract was awarded.

The contract sets no limits on how much Brown & Root may spend, or quantity of services rendered to meet requests, and their fees will be based on their expenditures with a guaranteed percentage profit, so the costs will be impossible to estimate -- the more they spend the more they will profit. They will also get a bonus amount, if the military is satisfied. This is incentive to spend as much as possible and the military will probably be more satisfied as a result.

Also poised to make a "killing" on this war is the global investment firm, the Carlyle Group, which employs former Secretary of State James Baker III and former President George H. W. Bush as advisors and also includes former members of both the Reagan and Bush I administrations. Carlyle is heavily invested with defense contractors and owns the weapons manufacturer; United Defense.

Overall, oil and oil-service industries, along with various military contractors, will make fortunes on a war with Iraq and the benefits of processing oil reserves, which are second in the world only to Saudi Arabia.

Others in the Bush administration are tied to various oil or oil service businesses (Condoleezza Rice even has an oil tanker named after her, for example), but I will take a pass getting into every last one of them at the moment to tell the story of Enron.

Enron was one of Bush's biggest contributors. It is interesting to note that Enron desperately needed a pipeline deal through Afghanistan to make the Dabhol power plant (its biggest project at the time) profitable and to avoid bankruptcy. Enron was involved in the Energy Task Force meetings, which occurred several months prior to 9-11 and which Cheney refuses to divulge any information about. It would be very interesting to find out what was discussed at these meetings (the GAO was threatened by the administration with a cut in funding, if it didn't drop its suit seeking information about the task force meetings, and the suit was promptly dropped). There now will be a pipeline built through Afghanistan, Enron has reformed into a pipeline building business, and it looks like they may be able to complete their project in Dabhol.

It actually may be possible to guess what was discussed and suggested by the oil company representatives which attended at the secret Energy Task Force meetings by looking at a report that was submitted to Cheney in April, 2001. The report, called "Strategic Energy Policy Challenges For The 21st Century", was commissioned by the Council on Foreign Relations and James Baker, former Secretary of State under President Reagan and was linked to a "veritable who's who of U.S. hawks, oilmen, and corporate bigwigs," according to the Sydney Morning Herald. The report made the argument that there is a need of U.S. "military intervention" in Iraq to "secure control of its oil" and thereby address the coming energy crisis and it possibly infers a pipeline through Afghanistan where it said that the U.S. should "investigate whether any changes to U.S. policy would quickly facilitate higher exports of oil from the Caspian Basin region...the exports from some oil discoveries could be hastened if a secure, economical export route could be identified swiftly." [Emphasis mine]

Later, when the results of the Task Force meetings were announced in Cheney's national energy plan, it contained the suggestion that the U.S. could no longer depend on traditional sources and would have to obtain supplies from the Caspian regions and that the U.S. would have to overcome foreign resistance to the current limitations of American energy companies.

So, you have the prior intentions of the ideological neocons combining with the corporate energy interests which came together in this administration, possibly best personified in the person of Dick Cheney. There is a lot more to tell regarding this story, but that is enough to chew on for now.

Psylence seems to want to cast anyone objecting to BushCo as hating America. How McCarthy-like. Saying "my country, right or wrong" is like saying "my mother, drunk or sober." Obviously it still might be your mother even if she is drunk, but you might want to help her out if you care about her. I personally don't care to be lied to even if they think they have noble reasons. If we are going to set out to be the world's policemen, or right every wrong in the world, or make the world safe for democracy at gunpoint, I think they should have laid it all out on the table. In objecting, I believe I am trying to protect this country from falling into the hands of the corporate elite at the expense of the People, and keep us from following down a path to some type of neo-imperialistic empire that might lead to the destruction of our democratic/republican form of government (see Rome 101).

By every objective measurement, what we are doing is making us less safe and conditions in Iraq aren't substantially better or worse than before. It could go in either direction at this point. The guys that are running this show have been wrong about almost everything so far and I'm not sure this level of incompetence would have ever been tolerated in the past. While they might be stirring up trouble in the Middle East for years to come, we are busy throwing away our freedoms to fight those who supposedly hate us for them and sacrificing our ideals by avoiding the rule of law in places like Gitmo or sending "detainees" to other countries to torture them for us.

It is because I am patriotic that I oppose what is happening now.

BTW, estimates of Saddam's "killing his own people" have been suggested to be about 300,000. At least one study has put the numbers of innocent Iraqis killed as a result of our actions at around 100,000. At this rate, we may catch up to him fairly rapidly.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

I apologize if SOME of what I wrote in my last post seems to have been written before the invasion. It was. I was trying to cover a lot of information quickly and I resorted to copying and pasting parts of articles I had previously written on these subjects and I didn't take the time to update the situation as well as I might have -- especially the parts about contracts being awarded for post-war Iraq. With the stories of missing billions of dollars here and there, overcharging by Halliburton, and fraud, you might note that the situation only got worse since I covered those aspects.

[vheltrite]

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[ChiefOfAss]

I am serious.
I have no intentions of being 'born again', just try to live and survive. Hate Bush
with a passion. And he must hate me. Praying will do me no good. It's kinda silly.
Happy to just live in reality, and know when I am dead I am dead. Does anybody
remember laughter??? We have become so anal it seems. Bush love$ war.

75 cent (rap star)
I'm too am serious. You've got it all wrong, dude.

Bush loves ice cream. He can barely spell war. You give him way too much credit.

Laughter is for Liberals - which if you look it up in the dictionary - means: to be a communist, Islamic, daughter butt-fucking, terrorist pot smoker who sucks stem cells out of aborted fetuses through a pink straw.

If you want laugh at something, you have to do something called a "freedom scream".