Theist Brutality.

[soulstice]

Who here has noticed that most, if not all violence is spewed from religion? For example, the Jihads and holy wars and all that shit.

Religions preach severe discrimination and hatred towards non-followers of that religion. Why do you think Muslims fight in the name of 'Allah?' or Hindus in the name of 'Nastika?'

As I see it, religions are the source of hatred in this world. Anyone with me?

[lV C O A]

True I am an atheist but one must admit atheism can spark violence to. Hitler was an atheist and the soviet union led by stalin was a non religious society and they executed people who didn't follow atheism. I think all believes are capable of being missused.

[Philboid Studge]

As I see it, religions are the source of hatred in this world. Anyone with me?
Yeah! Kill 'em all!

[Mog]

True I am an atheist but one must admit atheism can spark violence to. Hitler was an atheist and the soviet union led by stalin was a non religious society and they executed people who didn't follow atheism. I think all believes are capable of being missused.
Hitler, an atheist? Not quite.
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

The evidence suggests that while Hitler was not really a Christian, he was still a theist or at least a deist.

[ghoulslime]

True I am an atheist but one must admit atheism can spark violence to. Hitler was an atheist and the soviet union led by stalin was a non religious society and they executed people who didn't follow atheism. I think all believes are capable of being missused.
Sorry, but Hitler was a theist. :/

Stalin didn't execute people for not being Atheists. He killed people to consolidate his power. :/

[ghoulslime]

Humans are territorial and aggressive. Certainly, many humans use religion to rationalize and justify their acts of aggression. Unfortunately, even if we did away with religion, I think we would still be violent predators for the most part. But it would be a step in the right direction - that and killing all Canadians! :mad:

[Kamikaze189]

Religion tells you what to hate, like white infidels living it up in america.

[WITHTEETH]

As long as there is money, power, and religion, there will be war.

[Nicole]

Humans are territorial and aggressive. Certainly, many humans use religion to rationalize and justify their acts of aggression. Unfortunately, even if we did away with religion, I think we would still be violent predators for the most part. But it would be a step in the right direction - that and killing all Canadians! :mad:
I agree. Religion just condones violent actions, it doesn't cause them.

hey, what did we sweet Canadians do to you? :/

[ghoulslime]

Humans are territorial and aggressive. Certainly, many humans use religion to rationalize and justify their acts of aggression. Unfortunately, even if we did away with religion, I think we would still be violent predators for the most part. But it would be a step in the right direction - that and killing all Canadians! :mad:
I agree. Religion just condones violent actions, it doesn't cause them.

hey, what did we sweet Canadians do to you? :/
Absolutely nothing. I meant that sarcastically. I guess I should have put a smiley behind it. I need to be more careful posting here. Sometimes what was supposed to be funny looks plain mean. I LOVE canadians. :D I have a cabin in Northern Idaho just across the border with BC. I ride motorcycles with Canucks. It is so easy to make friends with Canadians - so mellow! (Of course I am generalizing) Also, when I had a school in Korea, I think I would have gone crazy had it not been for the Canuck teachers there. We had some good laughs. They sure know how to drink beer! I used to make up a new version of the Canadian national anthem to sing for them every week. (Usually with sexual conotations)

“O Canada! I’m home with my fine hand! True self-made love, ‘cause I’m too drunk to stand…”

You get the idea.

Of course I would make it up to them from time to time by doing a Star Spangled Banner number:

"O say did you see, down by Dawn’s oily crack, just how proudly she flails, when she’s down on her back…"

And so on!

:D

[calpurnpiso]

Mog wrote:

"The evidence suggests that while Hitler was not really a Christian, he was still a theist or at least a deist."

Not really, Hitler was a true Christian , like Joseph Smith, William Miller, W.T.Russell, Ellen White, Jones, Koresh, Doe of Heaven's gate etc. Hitler created his own branch of Christianity, the Christ-psychosis HINV disease he had been infected with since childhood, which he never recovered from but transformed into which would become Nazism. He would view himself as a reincarnated Christ aim at killing those who had crucified him, the Jews. He blended ancient German paganism, specially the runes from where the SS, symbol of the solar deity aka Christ/self came from and swastika ( 3,000 year old Aryan hindu cross symbol) symbolizing the cross where the god was crucified. Mein Kampf was his version of the Bible, where many ideas ( even quoting Luther's bible) came from. It is amazing how similar the Bible and mein Kampf are! Read it and you'll see Hitler's Christianity coming out of his ears!..fairy tales and all....

Hitler adored the Christian Crusaders of old and emulated them ( Frederich Barbarosa-12 century). He had his solders wear a silver buckle engraved with the Swastika and the words "Gott mit Uns" ( god with us). This emulated those other True Christian Crusaders cry when killing the infidel (Jews), the Latin, "Deus Vult"..God (aka Christ) wills it.! So, Hitler was NOT an atheist. Stalin, as was Lenin, Marx and others infected with the devastating neurological aberration of Christ-psychosis, their reactionary movement created communism, which is in a way a by product of Christ-psychosis! If those men had not been infected with Christianity, I'm certain Nazism and Communism would have NEVER happened!

Christianity is the cancer of the brain. The most virulent strain of Religious psychosis. A neurological disease produced perhaps by a Borna type virus, that makes the brain accept irrational delusional concepts as if they were factual tangible realities! I call this pathogen, HINV (Human Immunodeficiency Neurological Virus). People infected with it are time bombs and can develop full blown AIDNS ( Acquired Immunodeficiency Neurological Syndrome).

The ability to reason and perception of reality is slowly destroyed by this very ancient neurological anomaly(virus?). Fantasy become reality, and lies become the truth. e.g Hitler, Jim Jones of people's Temple, Koresh, Doe of Heaven's Gate, Eric Rudolph Atlanta Bomber, Paul Hill Abortion Doctor murderer, Andrea Yates drowner of 5 children, and there are thousands of more examples of this HINV infection that nobody seems to notice, including a vast majority of neurologists..and ALL of these people are well educated and some with PHDs.....Bush is also infected with it, which makes it extremely dangerous for America...:(

[calpurnpiso]

Nicole wrote:

"Religion just condones violent actions, it doesn't cause them"

Really? then, what caused the incredibly demented psychotic and genocidal actions documented in this site?...Lucifer-tooh fairy?...LOL...

http://www.geocities.com/iconoclastes.geo/victims.html

[soulstice]

Basically, Hitler and Stalin didn't preach violence because they were 'atheists' (although you've all proven that they weren't.) They believed in ideals such as fascism and purgery. They preached and used violence as a result of their ideas, not on the basis of non-religion.

[ghoulslime]

Nicole wrote:

"Religion just condones violent actions, it doesn't cause them"

Really? then, what caused the incredibly demented psychotic and genocidal actions documented in this site?...Lucifer-tooh fairy?...LOL...

http://www.geocities.com/iconoclastes.geo/victims.html
Human nature caused it. No doubt the Christians have authored some seriously sick chapters of our history, so have other religious groups. Killing in the name of religion is merely the projection of the already existing superstition, tribalism, territorialism, and the innate human inclination to fear and despise those who are different.

Europeans committed countless acts of unbelievable barbarism long before Christians showed up, long before any organized religion, back to the dawn of time. So did every other group of humans everywhere else in the world, with or without organized religion. As much as I hate Christians, as a freethinker, I wish to be as objective and fair as possible.

Painting Christian Europeans as unique monsters who showed up on the shores of North America to wrought suffering and violence on the peaceful inhabitants is such a crock of shit! American Indians were vicious monsters just like the Christians, just like every other group of humans. Name your people, your region of the world, they have all been monsters with or without religion.

The Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot is a fine example of what humans have the innate potential to be. It seems to me, he did an excellent job of torturing and murdering millions of people without the necessity of religion.

Even if all violence were someday eradicated from human society, we would still be nationalistic, clannish, we would still have sports teams pair off against each other because we like to see OUR team defeat another team. It is what we are. We spent millions of years climbing the food chain in competition with other organisms that wanted to kill us. What else can we be?

[calpurnpiso]

Ghoulslime wrote:

" Killing in the name of religion is merely the projection of the already existing superstition, tribalism, territorialism, and the innate human inclination to fear and despise those who are different. "

Since when people commit genocide in the name of religion? One must remember that religious psychosis is what causes people to be so insane, since this form of mental illness has the ability to erode the brain's perception of reality, making it unable to tell fantasy from reality. There is evidence the ingestion of entheogens ( psychoactive substances) help in the evolution of this organ use for thinking. This evidence can clearly be seen in over 30,000 year old painted caves of the neolithic period. (cheveaux, altamira, lascaux, Cueva de las manos in Argentina, and many more). Athropa Belladonna berries and other psychoactive substances have been found, and many of the pigments used by cavemen also contained psychoactive material. It seems religion had been created to explain nature, existence and the universe,!

It only takes one strong leader/priest fond of entheogens over 7.000 years ago to start a cult, then as time passes more people organizes these delusions into what it is called today, religion!

Can an AIDS patient use his thinnes as an excuse? Can a PPLO (tuberculosis) infected patient use coughing as an excuse?

So, religious psychosis is what causes people to be so delusional ( Hitler, Doe, Koresh et al). Delusions created by religous psychosis are the cause of the insanity in mankind. One must remember Freud definition of religious beliefs as a delusion. After all, don't those unfortunate retards, accept their religious delusions as reality, aiming at IMPOSSING them to all of us? Even Pol Pot was conditioned into a religious psychosis during his imprinting period!..It is up to the individual to reject or keep accepting these delusions as reality when they grow into adulthood.

When the brain's perception of reality is eroded, accepting obvious delusions as reality ( what those infected with religion do so well), it is fair to say this organ is under a neurological disorder since it exhibits symptoms similar to schizophrenia or temporal lobe epylepsy. It is obvious those mentally sick folks are under the effects of religion induced delusions either be organized, or disorganized.

One must always keep in mind, the brain makes us what we are, and the we tool use to create god, dreams, religion et al. When the brain is out of balance, infected by disease, and delusions take over, we have lost our atheism, mental health, since reality is then out of reach and logic has been eroded.......:)

[Philboid Studge]

There is evidence the ingestion of entheogens (psychoactive substances) help in the evolution of this organ use for thinking.
You're goddamn right! And it is the duty of every world citizen to ... wait, which organ? Oh, right: brain. Anyway, you should know that the word entheogen (http://ravingatheist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=662) literally means "in God", from the Greek entheos and genesthai. I'm not sure why you should know that -- it can only come back to hurt me.

It only takes one strong leader/priest fond of entheogens over 7.000 years ago to start a cult, then as time passes more people organizes these delusions into what it is called today, religion!
Bastards! Not only have these Christ-psychotics spread their dangerous, evolution-impeding virus throughout humanity, but worse than that, they've managed to give hallucinogens a bad name!

Sweet Merciful Crap: Philboid's 500th post is about entheogens! Thank you, calpurnpiso!

Excuse Philboid a sec, while he commemorates with a bong hit ...

*comes*back*coughing*like*Lauren*Bacall*

Whew. Where was I? Oh yeah. My quincentpostial. Thank you all, for being a part of my atheistic digital raving. I thank God you're not one of my hallucinations!

You're not, are you? ARE YOU?

[calpurnpiso]

Philboid Studge wrote:

"Whew. Where was I? Oh yeah. My quincentpostial. Thank you all, for being a part of my atheistic digital raving. I thank God you're not one of my hallucinations!
You're not, are you? ARE YOU?

LOL....well, If the Christ-psychotic just learn to ingest the right 'sacraments" and have the correct communion as the early Christians used to do, I do not think they would be as venemous, intolerant, conniving, irrational, self righteous, liers, petulant and constantly aiming at impossing their disgusting mental flatulence on people...

The mosaics illustrated in this site clearly show the posibility that early Christ-psychotics used psychoactive substances in their religious ceremonies....Want to talk and see god anyone?...pass the amanita muscaria and harmine....:)

You'll love this site..enjoy it. http://people.etnoteam.it/maiocchi/fabbro.htm

[ghoulslime]

Ghoulslime wrote:

" Killing in the name of religion is merely the projection of the already existing superstition, tribalism, territorialism, and the innate human inclination to fear and despise those who are different. "

Since when people commit genocide in the name of religion? One must remember that religious psychosis is what causes people to be so insane, since this form of mental illness has the ability to erode the brain's perception of reality, making it unable to tell fantasy from reality. There is evidence the ingestion of entheogens ( psychoactive substances) help in the evolution of this organ use for thinking. This evidence can clearly be seen in over 30,000 year old painted caves of the neolithic period. (cheveaux, altamira, lascaux, Cueva de las manos in Argentina, and many more). Athropa Belladonna berries and other psychoactive substances have been found, and many of the pigments used by cavemen also contained psychoactive material. It seems religion had been created to explain nature, existence and the universe,!

It only takes one strong leader/priest fond of entheogens over 7.000 years ago to start a cult, then as time passes more people organizes these delusions into what it is called today, religion!

Can an AIDS patient use his thinnes as an excuse? Can a PPLO (tuberculosis) infected patient use coughing as an excuse?

So, religious psychosis is what causes people to be so delusional ( Hitler, Doe, Koresh et al). Delusions created by religous psychosis are the cause of the insanity in mankind. One must remember Freud definition of religious beliefs as a delusion. After all, don't those unfortunate retards, accept their religious delusions as reality, aiming at IMPOSSING them to all of us? Even Pol Pot was conditioned into a religious psychosis during his imprinting period!..It is up to the individual to reject or keep accepting these delusions as reality when they grow into adulthood.

When the brain's perception of reality is eroded, accepting obvious delusions as reality ( what those infected with religion do so well), it is fair to say this organ is under a neurological disorder since it exhibits symptoms similar to schizophrenia or temporal lobe epylepsy. It is obvious those mentally sick folks are under the effects of religion induced delusions either be organized, or disorganized.

One must always keep in mind, the brain makes us what we are, and the we tool use to create god, dreams, religion et al. When the brain is out of balance, infected by disease, and delusions take over, we have lost our atheism, mental health, since reality is then out of reach and logic has been eroded.......:)
Religion is a disease. No argument here. Is it the sole cause of viciousness in humans? I think not. While your aim of exposing religion as a vile curse is a noble end, we should not be blinded by hatred of dogma to the extent that we lose our own grasp of the objective.

I am an Atheist not because of my hatred of religion. I am an Atheist as a consequence of the pursuit of objective thought.

[Metman07]

While religion is not the sole cause of violence in the world, it significantly increases the amount of violence in the world because it adds yet another source of conflict to the many existing ones. Without religion humans would still go to war for territory, resources, political disagreements, sheer greed and for many other reasons, but religion is one of the leading causes of conflict.

Look at India and Pakistan....divided because of "irreconcilable differences" between Muslims and Hindus. In India, clashes break out all the time between Hindus and Muslims, who are from the same racial and linguistic backgrounds...the only thing dividing them is their difference in religion.

[calpurnpiso]

Ghoulslime wrote:

"Religion is a disease. No argument here. Is it the sole cause of viciousness in humans? I think not. While your aim of exposing religion as a vile curse is a noble end, we should not be blinded by hatred of dogma to the extent that we lose our own grasp of the objective.
I am an Atheist not because of my hatred of religion. I am an Atheist as a consequence of the pursuit of objective thought. "

I'm aware Religious-psychosis is not the sole cause of viciousness in humans. After all, we humans are nothing more than evolved mutated primates whose viciousness is innate and part of their nature. My point is that mental illness is a disease and since religion has similar symptoms making people act so irrational affecting all of us ( look at Bush and those in control of the US), it is only fair the disease is exposed, diagnosed and treated. After all diseases are not loved but hated and aiming at eradicating them will not make us loose grasp at the primary objective. If a mentally retarded adult follows the 'dogma" of the Superman heroic stories and jumps to his death from a 40 story building, it would be irrational to hate the "dogma". The hate must be concentrated at the disease that made the man jump to his death, aim at finding a cure no?

I love the HINV ( human Immunodeficiency Neurological Virus) infected but hate the disease that infects them, don't you? So, my objective since I truly hate disease is to expose the disease for what it is and wait till neurologists find the pathogen that causes the illness. I have chosen HINV to define religious psychosis, because of its similarity to HIV in destroying the body's immune system. It seems this religious anomaly renders the immune system of the brain which protects this organ from accepting Delusions as tangible realities, useless. So, myths and fantasies become reality in the adult brain where its defenses to "bull shit" acceptance as fact have been eroded. I compare this to HIV-AIDS, precisely for the same reason.

The problem with us atheists is apathy. We realize those folks are crazy (the thought unfortunatelly is not literal) and do nothing about it, just talk, deride them, and do some more talk. I think the only way we can make a difference ( since atheists are a very miniscule minority) is by lobbying APA ( American Psychiatry Association), neurologists, researchers, scientists et al; get some atheist on the media like CNN and others and aim at comparing religious-psychosis to other neurological disorders to awaken the world.......but hey, it is only my opinion. I do hate diseases though. Your web site is awesome btw....:)

[ghoulslime]

Ghoulslime wrote:

"Religion is a disease. No argument here. Is it the sole cause of viciousness in humans? I think not. While your aim of exposing religion as a vile curse is a noble end, we should not be blinded by hatred of dogma to the extent that we lose our own grasp of the objective.
I am an Atheist not because of my hatred of religion. I am an Atheist as a consequence of the pursuit of objective thought. "

I'm aware Religious-psychosis is not the sole cause of viciousness in humans. After all, we humans are nothing more than evolved mutated primates whose viciousness is innate and part of their nature. My point is that mental illness is a disease and since religion has similar symptoms making people act so irrational affecting all of us ( look at Bush and those in control of the US), it is only fair the disease is exposed, diagnosed and treated. After all diseases are not loved but hated and aiming at eradicating them will not make us loose grasp at the primary objective. If a mentally retarded adult follows the 'dogma" of the Superman heroic stories and jumps to his death from a 40 story building, it would be irrational to hate the "dogma". The hate must be concentrated at the disease that made the man jump to his death, aim at finding a cure no?

I love the HINV ( human Immunodeficiency Neurological Virus) infected but hate the disease that infects them, don't you? So, my objective since I truly hate disease is to expose the disease for what it is and wait till neurologists find the pathogen that causes the illness. I have chosen HINV to define religious psychosis, because of its similarity to HIV in destroying the body's immune system. It seems this religious anomaly renders the immune system of the brain which protects this organ from accepting Delusions as tangible realities, useless. So, myths and fantasies become reality in the adult brain where its defenses to "bull shit" acceptance as fact have been eroded. I compare this to HIV-AIDS, precisely for the same reason.

The problem with us atheists is apathy. We realize those folks are crazy (the thought unfortunatelly is not literal) and do nothing about it, just talk, deride them, and do some more talk. I think the only way we can make a difference ( since atheists are a very miniscule minority) is by lobbying APA ( American Psychiatry Association), neurologists, researchers, scientists et al; get some atheist on the media like CNN and others and aim at comparing religious-psychosis to other neurological disorders to awaken the world.......but hey, it is only my opinion. I do hate diseases though. Your web site is awesome btw....:)
If you want to start a War on Religion, I'm in! ...air to ground missiles taking out entire congregations, churches being converted into mental hospitals - it works for me!

[Fisher]

Dear Calpurnpiso,
It seems to me that your theory has little evidence to support it. You claim Christianity and religion as an illusion, yet what can you prove to not be an illusion? Everything is interpreted through the sensors of the human body, sight, touch, taste, sound, so it is hard to call anything real or fake. You claim that violence springs from religion yet you are calling religious people retarded, which just spurs arguments, rather then mentally challenged, as most doctors and educated men/women would use today. Besides the point of your obvious rudeness, if you can prove to me that the atheist holds proof that it is real, rather then an interpretation of the brain, then I will consider your theory, but until then atheism is just another religion in where there is no god and when you die, your just dust.

[Kamikaze189]

I'll answer part of that.

First of all, you can't prove an illusion to NOT be an illusion. I can make up any imaginary thing I want, then everytime you think you can prove it's not there I'll just lose the attribute you target (visuals, flesh, body heat, location) just like you do with your god. You say things are interpreted through the five senses; No shit, sherlock! You apparently found a more accurate way? Destroy your five senses and try to interpret ANYTHING. You'll fail miserably. The five senses prove things to be real, at least here in reality.

I'm not going to defend calpurnpiso's theory of religion-disease though, he can do that.

[Fisher]

I realized you can't prove anything with out the five senses, and I know very well that there is no other way to prove things. My piont is we are all on a level playing feild because nothing can be proved to exist. Therefore everything is possible. My theory of relegion has as much possibility as any ones. And yes... i realize i'm a moron for posting relegious arguements on a site clearly marked atheist, lol, but that's just the kind of guy I am, plus you guys seem to be lacking intelligent opossition, but if you don't want me here, say so and I will let you debate amongst yourselves.

[ghoulslime]

I realized you can't prove anything with out the five senses, and I know very well that there is no other way to prove things. My piont is we are all on a level playing feild because nothing can be proved to exist. Therefore everything is possible. My theory of relegion has as much possibility as any ones. And yes... i realize i'm a moron for posting relegious arguements on a site clearly marked atheist, lol, but that's just the kind of guy I am, plus you guys seem to be lacking intelligent opossition, but if you don't want me here, say so and I will let you debate amongst yourselves.
We are all on a level playing field because nothing can be proved to exist?

Ghoulslime humbly begs to differ.

Now, maybe my kindergarten teacher was wrong on this one, but she taught me that there are things that are real like rabbits, and then there are things that are not real like unicorns.

I have a rabbit.

I do not have a unicorn.

I can prove that my rabbit exists. I can see him. I can hear him. I can touch him. I can smell him. Why, I could even taste him if I were so inclined! Sometimes I see his poo in my driveway. Sometimes he leaves a spot of pee pee next to my sofa. I even have a photograph of him. If I show him to other people they see him too!

I cannot prove that unicorns exist. I won’t try.

Here is a photograph of my rabbit:

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/piglet2002.JPG

I presume you believe in a supernatural super being that runs the universe – a god.

Can you see this god? Can you hear him? Can you touch him? Can you smell him? Have you tried tasting him? Does he leave his poo in your driveway? Does he go pee pee next to your sofa? Do you have a photograph of him? If not, how can you say that we are on a level playing field in regards to our beliefs?

What proofs do you have of the existence of gods that cannot be applied to unicorns?


As to you being a moron; you’re obviously a moron, whether you post on Atheist sites or not.

As for we atheists wanting you here; dude, I can’t speak for anybody else, but I’m going to have a lot of fun with you! PLEASE post as frequently as you wish. You are very welcome here.

P.S. Was that opposition intelligent enough for you?

[Fisher]

Haha, I did not mean your opposition as lesser amount, I mean people that are here who do not just leave one post and then walk off with out arguing their point, and all three of you who are posting here seem very intelligent. Now, in reference to the rabbit, lets take something from one of your own, Calpurnpiso, who says that when people believe in something it becomes real to them. Perhaps your rabbit is there because you believe it to be, does it prove it is there in any one else’s eyes? No, they might tell you "yes, I can see your rabbit" but what if your just making them up to? For all you know you make your entire life up, so there really is no way to prove that your rabbit, a non-god world, or a god world does exist, it is all based on what you take in on faith, you have faith your rabbit exists, I have faith my god exists, and, the majority of you on this site, have faith there is no god.

[Fisher]

P.S.: your rabbit looks very puggy...

[WITHTEETH]

"A person could come across two philosophers in a park screaming at each other, "But you can't PROVE that the tree is really there!", while gesturing to a tree in front of them. Any rational person would come to the conclusion that this person was insane. (paraphrased from Monk's book Wittgenstein: Duty of a Genius)"

Yes Fisher, everything takes a leap of faith to beleive in it yuour right, I believe some are smaller then others. My first assumption is that the laws of science that are here today will be here tomarrow, if you can beleive in the laws like gravity then you can believe in science. All science is is just a few steps and math, thats it.

Common sense tells us not to beleive in God. Do we normally beleive in things we can't prove to not exist? still common sense isn't common.

Now you lets turn the tables, You had to make 2 giant leaps of faith.
1: There is a God and only one.

2:That God is of Christianity.

[Fisher]

Yes, you are right, i to have made leaps of faith, but i do not bielive they are any more distant or far fetched then to bielive in common sense or science. Common sense and science or both thought of and created by humans, and, as i hope we are both agreed upon, are diffinetly not perfect beings, therefore can creat things that might not exist, as science and common sense for you, and for me christianity and relegion. I would gladly choice christ and the bible in my leap of faith, and you would rather choice science, but i do not think we are mentally challenged any more then you are for choiceing what you bielive in

[ghoulslime]

Haha, I did not mean your opposition as lesser amount, I mean people that are here who do not just leave one post and then walk off with out arguing their point, and all three of you who are posting here seem very intelligent. Now, in reference to the rabbit, lets take something from one of your own, Calpurnpiso, who says that when people believe in something it becomes real to them. Perhaps your rabbit is there because you believe it to be, does it prove it is there in any one else’s eyes? No, they might tell you "yes, I can see your rabbit" but what if your just making them up to? For all you know you make your entire life up, so there really is no way to prove that your rabbit, a non-god world, or a god world does exist, it is all based on what you take in on faith, you have faith your rabbit exists, I have faith my god exists, and, the majority of you on this site, have faith there is no god.
Your solipsistic meanderings are amusing. You seem to confuse lingual and conceptual vagary with profundity.


I’m not sure that I follow your complete logic - if indeed logic is not a misnomer in this case.

Somehow you equate follow-up rebuttals to be the action of mentally–inferior individuals. Are you accustomed to dropping your half-wit notions and then running before anyone has an opportunity to test your theory? Perhaps if you applied basic grammar and spelling rules to your writing, your points might be more poignant. Or did you imagine that you are a literary genius? (If English is not your native language then you have my apology)

I have faith in nothing. I believe in what can be determined with objective scientific measurement. I could take my rabbit to any laboratory in the world and the tests would be consistently conclusive that he is a rabbit. I could take you to the same clinics and the tests would be consistently conclusive that you are deluded.

According to your solipsistic philosophy; nothing that we perceive is real. My rabbit is not real. Your imaginary god is not real.

That you are a dunce seems very real.

:D

[ghoulslime]

P.S.: your rabbit looks very puggy...
You can see my rabbit?

[Revmonkeyboy]

Yes, you are right, i to have made leaps of faith, but i do not bielive they are any more distant or far fetched then to bielive in common sense or science. Common sense and science or both thought of and created by humans, and, as i hope we are both agreed upon, are diffinetly not perfect beings, therefore can creat things that might not exist, as science and common sense for you, and for me christianity and relegion. I would gladly choice christ and the bible in my leap of faith, and you would rather choice science, but i do not think we are mentally challenged any more then you are for choiceing what you bielive in
Science is not a leap of faith. It is the replacement of faith with truth. A scientific theory that has not been proven will take a little faith untill more evidence comes forth. But more evidence always does. It will prove it one way or the other. Then it is no longer faith. Scientists have to take this leap often. They have enough faith to explore the concept further, but not enough to kill anyone who does not believe. That is faith I can live with.

The age of the earth and the existance of evolution are proven facts. These ideas are past the faith stage.

The existence of god is beyond science and is something that it is not equiped to deal with. Atheist take some leap of faith that there is no god out there. We are skeptical and look for evidence to point us in the right direction. There has never been any evidence of god. There will never be any evidence of god. We can prove the bible is a book about jewish culture and not about god. We can prove that Noah's flood is a myth. But we can not prove god does not exist. If I ever meet a god, I will be sure to ask why it has been laying low for the last 4.6 billion years.

[WITHTEETH]

Fisher, everything takes a leap of faith to beleive, even math.

Will you believe There is a God instead of 2+2=4? thats what your argument is saying to me.
All science is is a few steps with math, thats it, its a human sysem of reasoning. it still takes a leap of faith but obviously its working for you are on a computer, we have sent a man to the moon, we have created fussion, we have all these great machines but still... we turn to traditional methods of answers that in my opinion are outdated. Man has always had a hunger for knowledge, let man come to the perfessionals.

[Fisher]

I realize, in traditional science, 2+2=4... but why is this so? What if 2=llama? (As far fetched as that sounds) what you view as math and even the world as you know it wouldn't mean a thing. I know this is a very radical example, but what if your mind made you believe 2+2=4 because your mind wished for you to believe it was so. The world cannot be proven to exist as you know it or in any other way. It is hard to grasp, although it could be easy for you to grasp as I am not sure how familiar you are with philosophy, but what if you couldn't prove the flood existed because your mind thought with all it's thoughts and will that it didn't exist, then your mind would change events to make it true. Do you think I am mentally challenged for my views? I think it is as simple as freedom of speech, and has as much likelihood as anything else that is true. As for going to the professionals... well, history has shown science as been wrong again and again and again... perhaps in what you view as reality we have improved, but how much knowledge do we truly know? I think there are still billions of things to learn and many facts to still obtain, and any amount of them could very well prove, in your reality, that god is indeed real or not, will we ever find these facts? hm... In my opinion no, because god wants us to rely on our faith rather then what we see in the world.
And yes, I can see your bunny… you posted a picture of it, I also have a bunny... he's pretty hefty to for a bunny, no offense ment to eithier bunny.

[Nicole]

I realize, in traditional science, 2+2=4... but why is this so? What if 2=llama? (As far fetched as that sounds) what you view as math and even the world as you know it wouldn't mean a thing. I know this is a very radical example, but what if your mind made you believe 2+2=4 because your mind wished for you to believe it was so. The world cannot be proven to exist as you know it or in any other way. It is hard to grasp, although it could be easy for you to grasp as I am not sure how familiar you are with philosophy, but what if you couldn't prove the flood existed because your mind thought with all it's thoughts and will that it didn't exist, then your mind would change events to make it true. Do you think I am mentally challenged for my views? I think it is as simple as freedom of speech, and has as much likelihood as anything else that is true. As for going to the professionals... well, history has shown science as been wrong again and again and again... perhaps in what you view as reality we have improved, but how much knowledge do we truly know? I think there are still billions of things to learn and many facts to still obtain, and any amount of them could very well prove, in your reality, that god is indeed real or not, will we ever find these facts? hm... In my opinion no, because god wants us to rely on our faith rather then what we see in the world.
And yes, I can see your bunny… you posted a picture of it, I also have a bunny... he's pretty hefty to for a bunny, no offense ment to eithier bunny.
Welcome to the site. We actually do have a couple of regular theist posters. They are very well read and educated. Keeping up with them is a wonderful challenge. You'll have to work very hard to impress us here.

You have some interesting ideas but your writing is a bit unclear.

I do agree with you that science has been proven wrong and had to re-think several of its' ideas. I think that science has grown up over the centuries (fighting the church all the way) to recognize the difference between a fact and a theory. A fact has physical evidence to prove it. A theory has physical evidence to suggest it. When a theory is proven wrong by new evidence, science re-evaluates things and changes its' views. Religion, of course, remains static in its' beliefs no matter what evidence is introduced.

Perception of any given situation can certainly change which elements you choose to focus on of that situation but it can not change the exsistance of the situation. You can not 'make' something a truth because you wish it to be true. Believing is not seeing.

You can, however, present facts or historical evidence and debate their cause. For example; The Great Flood may have occurred when the Black sea was formed. The local people were primative and may have thought that their entire world was being covered in water. Was this a geological event or was 'god' punishing the locals?

By the way, I'm sure that Ghoulslime is going to blast you for this but he was being sarcastic about you seeing his bunny because you suggested that the bunny might only be visable to him as a theory....

[Rhinoqulous]

"A person could come across two philosophers in a park screaming at each other, "But you can't PROVE that the tree is really there!", while gesturing to a tree in front of them. Any rational person would come to the conclusion that this person was insane. (paraphrased from Monk's book Wittgenstein: Duty of a Genius)"

Common sense tells us not to beleive in God. Do we normally beleive in things we can't prove to not exist? still common sense isn't common.
Do I need to point out the irony of quoting Wittgenstein and then claiming common sense tells us not to believe in God? Unless you've only read Monk's (excellent) biography, then never mind.

Rhinoq

[Rhinoqulous]

I realize, in traditional science, 2+2=4... but why is this so?
By the definition (meaning) of 2 and the definition (meaning) of +. It has nothing to do with science, mathmatics is a language, and unless you change the rules of the math language, everyone who knows the basic rules of the language knows 2+2=4.

What if 2=llama? (As far fetched as that sounds) what you view as math and even the world as you know it wouldn't mean a thing. I know this is a very radical example, but what if your mind made you believe 2+2=4 because your mind wished for you to believe it was so. The world cannot be proven to exist as you know it or in any other way. It is hard to grasp, although it could be easy for you to grasp as I am not sure how familiar you are with philosophy, but what if you couldn't prove the flood existed because your mind thought with all it's thoughts and will that it didn't exist, then your mind would change events to make it true.
You sound a bit paranoid about evil demon sceanarios.

Do you think I am mentally challenged for my views?
No, but you may have watched the Matrix one too many times.

As for going to the professionals... well, history has shown science as been wrong again and again and again... perhaps in what you view as reality we have improved, but how much knowledge do we truly know? I think there are still billions of things to learn and many facts to still obtain, and any amount of them could very well prove, in your reality, that god is indeed real or not, will we ever find these facts? hm... In my opinion no, because god wants us to rely on our faith rather then what we see in the world.
I don't know what you mean about science being proved wrong. Do you mean science changes with new knowledge? That's not the same as being proved wrong.

Rhinoq

[WITHTEETH]

Fisher wrote-
As for going to the professionals... well, history has shown science as been wrong again and again and again... perhaps in what you view as reality we have improved, but how much knowledge do we truly know? I think there are still billions of things to learn and many facts to still obtain, and any amount of them could very well prove, in your reality, that god is indeed real or not, will we ever find these facts? hm... In my opinion no, because god wants us to rely on our faith rather then what we see in the world.

Rhino wrote-
I don't know what you mean about science being proved wrong. Do you mean science changes with new knowledge? That's not the same as being proved wrong.




Ok Doesn't religions outcome change too? i mean how many times have they thought rapture would come? The number of the beast i hear are suppose to be bar codes now. seriously, Fisherman, your bible is so incomprehensible that anyone can intrepret whatever they want out of it. The authors couldn't even follow eachother, the 2 diffrent versions the nativity are completely different.
Rhino, i actually stole that quote from you originally about Wittenberg, can you tell me the Irony? :)

[soulstice]

All very true.. Very valid points.

[thomas]

As long as there is money, power, and religion, there will be war.
As long as there are humans there will be money, power and religion.

[thomas]

Mog wrote:

"The evidence suggests that while Hitler was not really a Christian, he was still a theist or at least a deist."

Not really, Hitler was a true Christian ,
Only atheists believe this. Even the Jews don't typically characterize the holocaust as a Christian persecution of their race. If anything science is really to blame, as the policies of the Nazis were grounded in the science of eugenics.

[WITHTEETH]

Mog wrote:

"The evidence suggests that while Hitler was not really a Christian, he was still a theist or at least a deist."

Not really, Hitler was a true Christian ,
Only atheists believe this. Even the Jews don't typically characterize the holocaust as a Christian persecution of their race. If anything science is really to blame, as the policies of the Nazis were grounded in the science of eugenics.
blaming science, whats next algebra?

From here forth there is a ban on Algbra, i condemn it heresey!

Thats like blaming General Electric because you put a fork in an electrical socket.

[thomas]

You'll love this site..enjoy it. http://people.etnoteam.it/maiocchi/fabbro.htm
This is the worst kind of nonsense. Nothing but unfounded speculation here. Let's move right along.

[ocmpoma]

The best analysis of the origins of the Holocaust (not causes, really - an event like that ins't caused as much as it arises) that I have read is The Origins of Totalitariansim, by Hannah Arendt.

[Fisher]

Personally, as I am a student, I would greatly enjoy a band on algebra... but I doubt that's going to happen. Yes, it is very true many have thought the rapture would occur at different times but that is simply human speculation, there is no reference to the bible as to when the rapture occurs. At to this being nonsense... well... partly all of us is being a little non sense like. I am terribly sorry my writing is a bit hard to follow, I don't mean it to and this is something I need to work on, I am new to the forum thing. Onto Hitler being a Christian or not: Hitler obviously did not follow what the Christian faith teaches, he could say he was, but acting like he did he proves he was not. Actions speak louder then words, yes? So rather it was a corrupted form of Christianity or perhaps something totally different isn't really the debate. Religion, government, money and many other things that will always be taken advantage of by those who wish to control others, but saying any of those are evil isn't really fair. You wouldn’t call the internet evil because it opens up the possibility to get a virus from it, would you? It is merely a tool that can be used for good and evil. I don't view my Christianity as a religion. I view it more as a relationship between me and god, not in a sense that he talks to me literally, but that he is in control of my life and "speaks" to me through what events surround me. This can't really be proven either way to be coincidence or godly intervention, I like to think its godly intervention but we all have different views and that's why most of us are on this sight, to share our views and have some fun debating them. But back to my point, Christianity, to me, is not a religion because religions are created by man, and this was created by god, perhaps interpreted by man, but sent from a greater power.

[ocmpoma]

"Christianity, to me, is not a religion because religions are created by man, and this was created by god, perhaps interpreted by man, but sent from a greater power."

That's odd. I could have sworn that Christianity was created by a man... or was Jesus a woman? Someone call Dan Brown!

[Philboid Studge]

That's odd. I could have sworn that Christianity was created by a man... or was Jesus a woman? Someone call Dan Brown!
Christianity was created by a Jew. Someone call Mel Brooks!

[Fisher]

Lol, hey, Mel brooks is awesome!... ok, on to your post : But that is what you believe, which we've already proven; we differ on our beliefs of whom Christianity was created by. You say it was a Jew... well, ok, yes it was interpreted by Jews, but I believe those Jews were divinely inspired. Now it's hard to prove either way, now rather Christianity was created by man or women... well... I don't believe god is man or women. I think in the bible it was interpreted to be a man because many of the writers and authors of the bible thought of god as father. Neh, this is a short post... I should say something witty and humorish... um... oh! "I can see!! ::runs into a pole:: no wait... no I can't"

[ghoulslime]

I realize, in traditional science, 2+2=4... but why is this so? What if 2=llama?
Thank you for finally giving me the equation for Christian thought! 2=llama! That's why Christians seem so illogical to Atheists! They have a completely different system of mathematics! 2 = llama. 1 x faith=GOD. GOD + 17 = Christianity. It’s all so very clear to me now!

Now, if you will excuse me, I have an itch on the back of my head that I need to scratch with a hammer.



And yes, I can see your bunny… you posted a picture of it, I also have a bunny... he's pretty hefty to for a bunny, no offense ment to eithier bunny.
Yes, my bunny is fat. He is very old too. I rescued him from the highway about 8 years ago. I knew you weren’t disparaging him. But how do you know that he really is a rabbit? Are you applying Atheist logic here or Christian logic?

[Fisher]

That is exactly what I mean; I don't follow logic because I believe logic is flawed. It is full of holes itself, as any belief is, believe me I’m not saying Christianity is not, but I fill those holes with my faith as you do with your faith. Don't get me wrong, I don't stand a chance in all the world of converting any of you, but I am just trying to prove my belief has as much ground as yours. Everything in the world is based on faith, it is really a power in it's own, in my opinion. As to your question if I am applying Christian logic of atheist logic: by saying that you show me you believe in two different kinds of logic. By creating two different kinds of logic it becomes apparent that there are two paths that the human mind can take. The question which path I am on now, I am using my faith in you to believe the rabbit exists. I hope my faith is well-placed ghoulslime... and perhaps if it is, and your rabbit truly does exist, my faith will be better credited.

[WITHTEETH]

God created people so imperfect. Then blame then for being imperfect. Then send his son to be murdered by those imperfect people, to make up for how imperfect they are, amd how imperfect they were inevitably going to be.

Makes perfect sense right?

[Philboid Studge]

God created people so imperfect. Then blame then for being imperfect. Then send his son to be murdered by those imperfect people, to make up for how imperfect they are, amd how imperfect they were inevitably going to be.

Makes perfect sense right?
Perfectly.

[Mog]

That is exactly what I mean; I don't follow logic because I believe logic is flawed. It is full of holes itself, as any belief is, believe me I’m not saying Christianity is not, but I fill those holes with my faith as you do with your faith.
You don't follow logic because its illogical? That sounds like what you are saying to me. Logic is not a belief system. Its a tool to measure consistancy.


Don't get me wrong, I don't stand a chance in all the world of converting any of you, but I am just trying to prove my belief has as much ground as yours. Everything in the world is based on faith, it is really a power in it's own, in my opinion. As to your question if I am applying Christian logic of atheist logic: by saying that you show me you believe in two different kinds of logic. By creating two different kinds of logic it becomes apparent that there are two paths that the human mind can take. The question which path I am on now, I am using my faith in you to believe the rabbit exists. I hope my faith is well-placed ghoulslime... and perhaps if it is, and your rabbit truly does exist, my faith will be better credited.
Christian "logic" isn't really logic. Theres nothing very consistant about it. So we don't really "believe" in too types of logic.

[schemanista]

That is exactly what I mean; I don't follow logic because I believe logic is flawed. It is full of holes itself, as any belief is, believe me I’m not saying Christianity is not, but I fill those holes with my faith as you do with your faith.
Far-fuckin' out, man.

[Tenspace]

That is exactly what I mean; I don't follow logic because I believe logic is flawed.
Like water, logic can be pure, or full of poison. Don't distrust the inherent "logic" of logic; distrust the drops of ideology mixed into the logic by others. In other words, learn to critically analyze what others tell you. Except me, of course. ;)

Tenspace

[Fisher]

And who's to say whose logic is true and whose logic is not true? Many things influence us all and all seem to have different views on what logic can and is. You say my logic is corrupted, well, I say yours is. Our worlds laws such as logic and physics we always assume work, but really and truly the hold little reference outside this world in a higher universe such as heaven and where god would be from in my opinion.

[snap crafter]

I realize, in traditional science, 2+2=4... but why is this so? What if 2=llama? (As far fetched as that sounds) what you view as math and even the world as you know it wouldn't mean a thing. I know this is a very radical example, but what if your mind made you believe 2+2=4 because your mind wished for you to believe it was so. The world cannot be proven to exist as you know it or in any other way. It is hard to grasp, although it could be easy for you to grasp as I am not sure how familiar you are with philosophy, but what if you couldn't prove the flood existed because your mind thought with all it's thoughts and will that it didn't exist, then your mind would change events to make it true.
I hate to tell you fisher, but what your talking about isn't philosophy. It's metaphysics. And really, if your trying to prove anything to anyone... don't go into metaphysics, it's not meant to be used in a debate, or between 2 people, it's more to further indivual understanding, not societal understanding.

[Fisher]

Well noted Snap Crafter, thank you, I have little understanding about metaphysics I’m afraid but it might be something I wish to now more about. I think in a way it must tie into a higher level of philosophy though (if one exists) that has yet to be explored fully. But I will concede this debate and perhaps come back with a better understand of metaphysics and how to use this tool in a few days. Thank you all for debating, it was well fought, and I hope to see you all in other debates soon.

[Rhinoqulous]

And who's to say whose logic is true and whose logic is not true? Many things influence us all and all seem to have different views on what logic can and is. You say my logic is corrupted, well, I say yours is. Our worlds laws such as logic and physics we always assume work, but really and truly the hold little reference outside this world in a higher universe such as heaven and where god would be from in my opinion.
There are no competing views on what logic is or does. There are various levels. structures, and types of logic, but all are translatable into each other. Logic doesn't work or not work; it is a tool for analysis that can not change (a logical truth will always stay a logical truth). If you think you are using a different logic than someone else, you are wrong. You either are using logic or you are not.

Rhinoq

[ocmpoma]

"And who's to say whose logic is true and whose logic is not true?"

There is such a thing as objectivity. As long as the premise is objective (i.e., quantifiable) and the logic follows, the conclusion is sound. Most "untrue logic" is sound logic based on an incorrect premise.

[Rhinoqulous]

I realize, in traditional science, 2+2=4... but why is this so? What if 2=llama? (As far fetched as that sounds) what you view as math and even the world as you know it wouldn't mean a thing. I know this is a very radical example, but what if your mind made you believe 2+2=4 because your mind wished for you to believe it was so. The world cannot be proven to exist as you know it or in any other way. It is hard to grasp, although it could be easy for you to grasp as I am not sure how familiar you are with philosophy, but what if you couldn't prove the flood existed because your mind thought with all it's thoughts and will that it didn't exist, then your mind would change events to make it true.
I hate to tell you fisher, but what your talking about isn't philosophy. It's metaphysics. And really, if your trying to prove anything to anyone... don't go into metaphysics, it's not meant to be used in a debate, or between 2 people, it's more to further indivual understanding, not societal understanding.
I hate to tell you this Snap, but you're wrong. Metaphysics IS A FIELD of philosophy (the five general fields are metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, aesthetics, and logic). As for metaphysics not to be used in a debate, what the hell do you think metaphysics is? I'd say half of the posts on this forum concern metaphysical questions.

And what Fisher is talking about isn't metaphysics per se, it's epistemology. His/her post is not concerned with the true nature of the universe, it's about our ability to have knowledge about the universe (the whole 2=llama crazy talk). So please stop tossing about philosophical terms you have no understanding of. It's really annoying.

Rhinoq

ps. Sorry for any spelling errors, my computer died, and I am forced to post from a co-workers computer that hails from around the Bronze Age, and has no spell-check function. I'm amazed this thing can actually get onto the inter-web. I also may not be able to check back here and post till next week, so if I don't answer anyones posts, don't get angry at me, get angry at my computer that started on fire.

[thomas]

I also may not be able to check back here and post till next week, so if I don't answer anyones posts, don't get angry at me, get angry at my computer that started on fire.
Aha ! There is a God. My prayers are being answered. Only 50 more atheist computer fires to pray for.....

for the avoidance of doubt, especially for the americans amongst us, this is a JOKE

[James]

Hitler was not an atheist. There is not one speech made by Hitler in which he does not mention 'God.' Nazism was a religion, with Hitler as the godlike figurehead. Religion does not require a god for validity. Ever seen picks of the 'German Faith Movement?' Lots of crosses and dicks with pointy hats.

[ghoulslime]

I also may not be able to check back here and post till next week, so if I don't answer anyones posts, don't get angry at me, get angry at my computer that started on fire.
Aha ! There is a God. My prayers are being answered. Only 50 more atheist computer fires to pray for.....

for the avoidance of doubt, especially for the americans amongst us, this is a JOKE
Actually, my one of my hard drives fried the other day. You bastard! :mad:

[Tenspace]

I also may not be able to check back here and post till next week, so if I don't answer anyones posts, don't get angry at me, get angry at my computer that started on fire.
Aha ! There is a God. My prayers are being answered. Only 50 more atheist computer fires to pray for.....

for the avoidance of doubt, especially for the americans amongst us, this is a JOKE
Actually, my one of my hard drives fried the other day. You bastard! :mad:
No shit? Really? I've had two failures in the last week... my CPU fan died, and now my flat panel is flickering.

Could it be The Curse of thomas? Or is it because I bought HP?

Ten

[Fisher]

hm... Probably a little of both. HP is already bad, but convine that and it's over.

[Philboid Studge]

Aha ! There is a God. My prayers are being answered. Only 50 more atheist computer fires to pray for.....

for the avoidance of doubt, especially for the americans amongst us, this is a JOKE
Actually, my one of my hard drives fried the other day. You bastard! :mad:
No shit? Really? I've had two failures in the last week... my CPU fan died, and now my flat panel is flickering.

Could it be The Curse of thomas? Or is it because I bought HP?

Ten
My cat recently yanked the left 'shift' and 'caps lock' keys off my keyboard, and I can't get them back on. Thomas, why don't you start praying for something for useful?

[Fisher]

Do you believe his prayer would help you reinstall your keys on your keyboard? If you do I will be happy to tell you how to pray yourself =D

[ghoulslime]

Do you believe his prayer would help you reinstall your keys on your keyboard? If you do I will be happy to tell you how to pray yourself =D
I'll be happy to tell you how to play with yourself. :D