How do absolutists decide what is moral?

[Little Earth Stamper]

As I've mentioned before, I've come to believe in moral reletivism because of the seeming impossibility of demonstrating absolute moral priciples.

Anyway, I've started to understand where moral absolutists are coming from a bit better, but I don't feel they've really answered my main objection.

Now, I know lurker believes that, essentially, might makes right, and that gods will is absolute because he can stifle any objections.

I have two problems with this (Besides the fact that I don't think might makes right);

1. This idea rests not on actual might, but hypothetical might. While god himself may well be omnipotent, his emmisaries here on earth are not. For example, at one point Catholics ruled the Christian roost, but now protestants have a good deal of power. Which side is truly moral?

2. It's impossible to know who is right until after a conflict. For example, if Muslims and Christians each think the other is right, the only way to find out is to fight until one side is so badly beaten that they can no longer express their ideology. And in the end, even that may not prove anything; Islam currently has a great hold on many places, and is much more powerful then Christianity in those places. But when a Muslim dies, presumably Lurker's god will judge them harshly for failing to be Christian.

In fact, let's take this further: In Iraq, the insurgents have a good deal of power. What is to show them that suicide bombing is an immoral thing? After all, it gives them power.

So this is my question: How can we figure out what is right or wrong before it is too late and we are judged?

[Choobus]

There's nothing to show. the koran is short on suicide so the insurgents are not following their own doctrines (assuming they are followers of islam), hence, they cannot make a reasonable claim to be anything other than murderers.

sadly, one could make the same argument regarding the US government

[Philboid Studge]

I am developing a theory that (the presumption of) absolute knowledge will ultimately corrupt just as surely and absolutely as absolute power does, and for the same reasons. Those reasons are tied in with LES's might-is-right formula. Thus God, per se, is not the problem; nor even, is the belief in God. It is rather the notion that an absolute truth exists and can be tapped into to guide human behavior. Every one of these so-called absolute truth sets are routinely distilled, distorted, ignored, amplified, or simply discarded when it suits a particular purpose (something a MR should approve of!). And more often than not that purpose is to accrue power. But it's not the distortion that's the problem, it's the belief that such a set exists at all. It's time to discard it and do the hard work of figuring out how societies can peacefully co-exist without using a dangerous and ultimately counter-productive crutch.

In answer to one of your Q's, I suppose we should try to convince Iraqi insurgents that it is in everyone's interest to have a stable and peaceful society. Obviously they need some sort of political voice to compensate for the power they'd be giving up (suicide bombings), which is the very same equation behind Israeli-Palestinian discussions. It ain't easy. I suggest that as long people believe in their absolute truth sets, it's impossible.

Your other question -- 'How can we figure out what is right or wrong before it is too late and we are judged?' -- is I guess for theists and others who assume there'll be a judgment.

[Little Earth Stamper]

Bump. Thomas, Lurker, care to field this one? Please?

[Another brick in the wall]

I am developing a theory that (the presumption of) absolute knowledge will ultimately corrupt just as surely and absolutely as absolute power does, and for the same reasons. Those reasons are tied in with LES's might-is-right formula. Thus God, per se, is not the problem; nor even, is the belief in God. It is rather the notion that an absolute truth exists and can be tapped into to guide human behavior. Every one of these so-called absolute truth sets are routinely distilled, distorted, ignored, amplified, or simply discarded when it suits a particular purpose (something a MR should approve of!). And more often than not that purpose is to accrue power. But it's not the distortion that's the problem, it's the belief that such a set exists at all. It's time to discard it and do the hard work of figuring out how societies can peacefully co-exist without using a dangerous and ultimately counter-productive crutch.

In answer to one of your Q's, I suppose we should try to convince Iraqi insurgents that it is in everyone's interest to have a stable and peaceful society. Obviously they need some sort of political voice to compensate for the power they'd be giving up (suicide bombings), which is the very same equation behind Israeli-Palestinian discussions. It ain't easy. I suggest that as long people believe in their absolute truth sets, it's impossible.

Your other question -- 'How can we figure out what is right or wrong before it is too late and we are judged?' -- is I guess for theists and others who assume there'll be a judgment.
It's kind of hypocritical for the US to scold the insurgents for not be willing to forgo violence in favor of negotiation.

[Philboid Studge]

It's kind of hypocritical for the US to scold the insurgents for not be willing to forgo violence in favor of negotiation.
You got that right. I think one of the reasons that Noam Chomsky is so loathed is because he applies universality to his analyses. E.g., he recognizes that the worst state-sponsored terrorism on the planet is made in the USA ...

[calpurnpiso]

There's nothing to show. the koran is short on suicide so the insurgents are not following their own doctrines (assuming they are followers of islam), hence, they cannot make a reasonable claim to be anything other than murderers.

sadly, one could make the same argument regarding the US government
I sure wish Christian also follow their own doctrines and drink cyanide to leave this satanic planet full of evil and sin!.! Alas, at least the Wahhabbi Muslims truly show that they are TRUE believers and are going to see their God while eliminating the Nouveau Christian crusader invaders.
Which the Christ-psychosis infected US in their ignorance of history fail to see!..:)

[NihilistThug]

The same way everyone else does, completely aribtrary bullshit.

[Crackerus Dadderus]

I say we start a movement to get christians to believe their best bet is to kill everyone they know to be a true christian and leave the planet to the godless. That would get around the whole "god frowns on suicide" issue.

Something tells me their faith isn't that strong in life ever-after.