No Real Religions - Thoughts?

[Tenspace]

I just had a thought, which I'm developing regarding the lack of definitive religious artifacts.

Here it is: There are no physical religious proofs - no ancient artifacts described in bibles, no great and secret supernatural objects held in temple vaults. There are rumors, legends, and "restrictions" of access to areas like Mt Ararat and under the Temple Mount, nothing that would make a non-believer skeptical.

Why? Because if there were, don't you think the patrons of the religion would want to display these items and use them to validate the supernatural existence of their religion? If there were real evidence of Jesus, for example, I feel the holders of said evidence would be parading it around, saying, "Look, look here is our proof!"

But there is none. Anyone want to discuss?

Tenspace

[Lurker]

We have historical artifacts so I'm not sure what you're looking for. Perhaps Jesus' body?

[Switch25]

We have historical artifacts so I'm not sure what you're looking for. Perhaps Jesus' body?
What are some of the artifacts?

[Tenspace]

We have historical artifacts so I'm not sure what you're looking for. Perhaps Jesus' body?
Such as?

I'm referring to artifacts specific to the bible-magic, such as Noah's Ark, a broken salt pillar, the decalogue tablets, etc.

Ten

[Lurker]

What are some of the artifacts?
Various tombs, cities, records of various people, writings, etc. but I suspect none of this is what Ten is looking for.

[Lurker]

I'm referring to artifacts specific to the bible-magic, such as Noah's Ark, a broken salt pillar, the decalogue tablets, etc.
You're dismissing the things we have and asking for the things we don't have. Seems pretty unreasonable considering historians accept historical stories with much less evidence. I suspect it’s the “supernatural” aspect that you want proof of. We went around and around on that subject before and I’m not sure how it ended up.

[Rhinoqulous]

We have historical artifacts so I'm not sure what you're looking for. Perhaps Jesus' body?
Such as?

I'm referring to artifacts specific to the bible-magic, such as Noah's Ark, a broken salt pillar, the decalogue tablets, etc.

Ten
Don't those nutty followers of Islam have a magic rock at Mecca or something? I think that would qualify as a religious historical artifact.

Rhinoq

[Another brick in the wall]

I pretty sure it's actually a meteorite. But I guess if you're an ignorant goat herder living thousands of years ago, it makes perfect sense to worship a rock that fell out of the sky.

[Jennifer]

Before he broke my heart by writing Bible stories, Orson Scott Card once said in an interview that the intent of Religion was to explore where we come from and where we are going, making writing Science Fiction the last true relgion.

[Rhinoqulous]

Before he broke my heart by writing Bible stories, Orson Scott Card once said in an interview that the intent of Religion was to explore where we come from and where we are going, making writing Science Fiction the last true relgion.
Another Card fan! Speaker For the Dead is one of my favorite books. As for him going all religious, you have to remember he's always been a Morman.

Rhinoq

[Tenspace]

What are some of the artifacts?
Various tombs, cities, records of various people, writings, etc. but I suspect none of this is what Ten is looking for.
Right - these are historical facts that are coincidental to what I'm seeking. Regardless of the flavor of religion favored by the population, there would have been cities, art, writings, etc.

[Tenspace]

I'm referring to artifacts specific to the bible-magic, such as Noah's Ark, a broken salt pillar, the decalogue tablets, etc.
You're dismissing the things we have and asking for the things we don't have.
No. I'm dismissing the things we would have had anyway and asking for things that are unique to a religious story - any story, any religion, any era.

Seems pretty unreasonable considering historians accept historical stories with much less evidence.
I'm not talking about historical sites. I'm talking proof of what is considered mythological or supernatural.

I suspect it’s the “supernatural” aspect that you want proof of. We went around and around on that subject before and I’m not sure how it ended up.
Hmm.... don't remember that. Have to look it up.

Ten

[Tenspace]

We have historical artifacts so I'm not sure what you're looking for. Perhaps Jesus' body?
Such as?

I'm referring to artifacts specific to the bible-magic, such as Noah's Ark, a broken salt pillar, the decalogue tablets, etc.

Ten
Don't those nutty followers of Islam have a magic rock at Mecca or something? I think that would qualify as a religious historical artifact.

Rhinoq
Is it really magic? That's a good example. Don't you think that if they had a truly magic item, they would have already used it or revealed it in order to validate and confirm religion (theirs) as real.

Show me the magic and I would completely re-evaluate my worldview. :)

Ten

[Jennifer]

Another Card fan! Speaker For the Dead is one of my favorite books. As for him going all religious, you have to remember he's always been a Morman.
Rhinoq
That whole series is great. And I liked "Treason" and the Homecoming Series...and then there was Sarah, and I thought...."well maybe he dressed it up with Aliens or something"...and then came Rebekah...and I thought "like of Stoney Brook Farm? Right Orson? Right?"

Yes, I knew he was Mormon but who knew he would devote the end of his career to sucking up to God. Its all very upsetting.

Do you like Irving? I keep looking at his new book, but I can't decide.

[Rhinoqulous]

Is it really magic? That's a good example. Don't you think that if they had a truly magic item, they would have already used it or revealed it in order to validate and confirm religion (theirs) as real.

Show me the magic and I would completely re-evaluate my worldview. :)

Ten
As far as I know, they don't let it out of a certain temple, and you can only view it once a year during the time of pilgrimage. I doubt that devout believers feel the need to validate their beliefs to others.

Rhinoq

[Rhinoqulous]

Do you like Irving? I keep looking at his new book, but I can't decide.
Not sure who/what Irving is. Author? Book? Sorry, not familiar. I have read some really great sci-fi recently, and I'm currently waiting for the Best of 2005 in short fiction (hopefully it will come this weekend).

Rhinoq

[Lurker]

I'm not talking about historical sites. I'm talking proof of what is considered mythological or supernatural.
Like a genie? Unfortunately christianity does not have magic genies or magic rocks.

I doubt a wooden boat would remain intact after all these years especially since it was likely dismantled and used to build shelter. Why waste all that good lumber? Stone tablets could have survived but may have been crushed. Nothing magical about the tablets anyway so if we found some would you treat this the same as finding Jericho's walls (yawn)?

There's nothing supernatural that can be found because all the supernatural things are not physical items lying around waiting to be excavated. The supernatural things are events and I don't think they had digital video back then to record it for us. They had paper-type stuff but that doesn't seem good enough. If we could resurrect people and walk on water at will today we'd say there's nothing miraculous about the story of jesus and nothing special about god.

If there is a god, I expect him to do many things we can't do. If he can't do any better than us humans then I'll just as soon give him a two-fingered eye poke ala Moe Howard and send him on his way.

[Philboid Studge]

If he can't do any better than us humans then I'll just as soon give him a two-fingered eye poke ala Moe Howard and send him on his way.
An omniscent God would be ready with the vertical hand-to-nose block, ala Curly.

[Little Earth Stamper]

Ten, didn't you watch Indiana Jones? If a human looks at the ark his face will melt off.

And besides the ark of the covenant, which as I recall does have mystical powers in the bible, there are folkloric artifacts like the spear of longinus or the holy grail.

[WITHTEETH]

Christianity has many artifacts called relics. people would have a pilgramage during the dark ages just to get near these relics, hoping that some of thier "magical" powers might rub off onto them. Most of the relics were bones from saints.

[Jennifer]

If he can't do any better than us humans then I'll just as soon give him a two-fingered eye poke ala Moe Howard and send him on his way.
An omniscent God would be ready with the vertical hand-to-nose block, ala Curly.
:lol:

I think it more fun to be religious when Paganism was hot. Pagan God's suffer all the same petty emotions that humans do, they can be tricked by humans, and you can choose who you are going to pay homage to at any time. There were no regular services to attend.

If Paganism was common now I might pretend to beleive just to join the party.

[moxnix46]

I think it more fun to be religious when Paganism was hot. Pagan God's suffer all the same petty emotions that humans do, they can be tricked by humans, and you can choose who you are going to pay homage to at any time. There were no regular services to attend.

If Paganism was common now I might pretend to beleive just to join the party.
I have met several people claiming to be Druid's, wondeful party animals! :)
Perhaps it's not to late for you to pretend. haha.

[ekimmike2002]

what if all religions has fade away, well they believe one God so they act stupid err...

[vheltrite]

they are really stupid......
believing in such a creature exists..........

there really is no religion...........
who needs religion anyway???no one!!!
sometime religions causes wars.....................................
they keep on tellin that if you do not have faith in god then you will not be saved.....
what a belief!!!

[schemanista]

I have met several people claiming to be Druid's, wondeful party animals! :)
Perhaps it's not to late for you to pretend. haha.
Though I don't believe any of it, I practice Javacrucianism. This is our creed:

"It is by Caffeine alone
that I set my mind in motion.
By the Beans of Java,
my thoughts aquire speed.
The hands aquire the shakes,
the shakes become a warning.
It is by Caffeine alone
that I set my mind in motion..."
- Javacrucian chant, attributed to Isaac Bonewits

And this is our most important ritual:

THE CAFFEINATED CROSS

Stand, facing east, holding your coffee cup, filled with the mystical brew, in your power hand, and assume a posture of wakeful alertness.

Bring your coffee cup to your forehead and intone:

"LATTE"

Lower your coffee cup to the vicinity of your navel:

"MOCHA"

Bring your coffee cup to your left shoulder:

"CAPPUCHINO"

Bring it across to your right shoulder:

"FRAPPUCHINO"

Clasp your coffee cup in both hands over your heart chakra:

"ARABICA, OH MAN!"

Extend your arms to the sides, and intone:

"BEFORE ME, MRS. OLSON"

"BEHIND ME, JUAN VALDEZ"

"AT MY RIGHT HAND, M J B"

"AT MY LEFT HAND, THE BROTHERS HILLS"

"FOR ABOUT ME SWIRLS THE COFFEE AROMA"

"WITHIN ME SINGS THE CAFFEINE HIGH"

Drink the coffee, in communion with the spirits of the Sacred Coffee Bean. This last step may be usefully repeated as long as you like.

To end the ritual, raise the mug to your lips one last time, facing East and intone:

"GODDESS... I needed that!"

-- by Karl Lembk