New thiest on boards

[WigWam]

Well, before I start diving in here and posting I thought I would introduce myself a little bit.

I have been a believer all of my life and have a facination with arguments against it.

I believe that everyone has a right to an opinion and to make up their mind for themselves. I am just here to offer alternative answers, and to keep you on your toes, as I hope you will keep me on my toes.

I believe that their are logical reasons to be an Atheist, and there are logical reasons to be a Theist, as you call us, and that both a valid viewpoints (even though, I am a strong believer in the latter viewpoint).

I hope to have some good discussions here and hope that you don't mind a Raving Thiest in your midsts.

BTW, I more of a logical guy... and not always a perfect speller. Pleez excuze mi typin in advanze.

[WITHTEETH]

Welcome WigWam, intresting you mention logic when backing your belief. It would seem your belief in God takes larger steps in logic then to simply beleive there is no God, unless God speaks to you. :P

Disproving god is like disproving a unicorn, Its hard to disprove things that appear to not exist. unless you have some sort of 6th sense. so i make an educated guess and ill say no there isn't a god. so i guess im going to hell right? thats a pretty common response from someone on the other side of the fence.
Can you tell me your logic in believing in God?

[abortionman]

right, what he said...
that and which god? cause some are wackier than others
well, no...that's not true...they're all pretty damn wacky and illogical in every possible way

[Switch25]

Welcome WigWam!!
I am glad you have joined the raving atheist, we need theists here to bring up arguments against our atheism.

[WigWam]

some are wackier than others
That part I can agree with. We are already finding common ground :)

As for which god, I believe in the God of the Bible. I also believe that there are a lot of misconceptions, and that one person's understanding of God is not another's understanding.

[Lurker]

I hope to have some good discussions here and hope that you don't mind a Raving Thiest in your midsts.
Glad you're here. Thomas and I need the reinforcements. Last I checked we're winning the debate so don't mess it up for us :D I think we have OC and Rhinoq on the ropes. Just kidding. ;)

Most here are decent people, but a few crackpots lie in the tall grass. Just ignore them and eventually they will go away or you'll just get used to ignoring them.

[ghoulslime]

Welcome, WigWam! I've been lying here in the tall grass waiting for you! Before I strike, could you tell me which god you believe in?

[abortionman]

last i remember lurker played stupid and pretended to not understand one of the most solid theories in science...but hey...if you believe in god you have to believe in yourself...cause otherwise you're just some nutjob hanging around in a forum defending your imaginary friend

[Eva]

Welcome, Wigwam....this is a very nice place, full of very smart and educamated people. (or is it edumacated?)
this is a theist-friendly forum, but atheists just have more fun here than theists. hope you understand.

enjoy the ride.

[Downslide]

hey :)

Quick question: you say this...
... I have been a believer all of my life and have a facination with arguments against it. ...
Then you say this:
...BTW, I more of a logical guy...
which seems rather contradictory & illogical.

perhaps you can attempt to explain your rationalization on this point.


(Please note: I do realize it may be because you were indoctrinated at an early age and haven't had the strength of mind to break free from such social programming)

[snap crafter]

Well, before I start diving in here and posting I thought I would introduce myself a little bit.

I have been a believer all of my life and have a facination with arguments against it.

I believe that everyone has a right to an opinion and to make up their mind for themselves. I am just here to offer alternative answers, and to keep you on your toes, as I hope you will keep me on my toes.

I believe that their are logical reasons to be an Atheist, and there are logical reasons to be a Theist, as you call us, and that both a valid viewpoints (even though, I am a strong believer in the latter viewpoint).

I hope to have some good discussions here and hope that you don't mind a Raving Thiest in your midsts.

BTW, I more of a logical guy... and not always a perfect speller. Pleez excuze mi typin in advanze.
Wigwam... You sound aweful cocky. I hope you have something to back up your logical reasons. You see, lurker refuses to give up her reasons.

I expect you to have some reason to believe in your god, and to ignore all logic and evidence in the process. You see, I've been asking thiests as of late why I should believe in god. Give me some empirical/historical/logical reasons to believe in, not a god, but YOUR god. Not one has given any defense beyond banter and insults.

Please don't disappoint.

[calpurnpiso]

some are wackier than others
That part I can agree with. We are already finding common ground :)

As for which god, I believe in the God of the Bible. I also believe that there are a lot of misconceptions, and that one person's understanding of God is not another's understanding.
Welcome!...Hmm..if you believe in the god of the Babble ( my spelling) don't you believe in all of the trappings that come with him ( miracles, floating souls, angels, demons etc)? what about Matthew's (27: 52-54) Night of the Ancient living Dead?..after all, these living corpses witness the resurrection first hand, since it activated them to spring to life...Do you believe this happen?

Tell me, do we produce our thoughts with our brains or does this organ pick them up from god, like a radio?....:)

[WigWam]

Welcome!...Hmm..if you believe in the god of the Babble ( my spelling) don't you believe in all of the trappings that come with him ( miracles, floating souls, angels, demons etc)? what about Matthew's (27: 52-54) Night of the Ancient living Dead?..after all, these living corpses witness the resurrection first hand, since it activated them to spring to life...Do you believe this happen?
I believe that it happened, crazy as it may sound. It does not appear to me that they were "ancient". I will need to check the original language, but from my understanding looking at different translations, they could have been dead only a short time, such as Lazurus, or maybe longer. The half-decayed zombie picture that you conjour up does not seem to reflect what is written in that passage.

However, having the dead walk through town would definately convince me of a few things... if I wasn't already convinced.

Tell me, do we produce our thoughts with our brains or does this organ pick them up from god, like a radio?....:)
What does science tell you?

[TheSnake]

I believe that it happened, crazy as it may sound. It does not appear to me that they were "ancient". I will need to check the original language, but from my understanding looking at different translations, they could have been dead only a short time, such as Lazurus, or maybe longer. The half-decayed zombie picture that you conjour up does not seem to reflect what is written in that passage.
It seems that you are into the time honored tradition of trying to rationalize your blind faith in the veracity of the Bible.
"Sin - Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God." from dictionary.com.
Now as I understand, Jesus died for our sins. Being son of God, it's unreasonable for him to have to die so that God can forgive people. Also since Jesus came back from the dead, God didn't actually 'give His only son', but rather decided to have the cake and eat it too. I guess when you're God, you can cheat like that. In any case none of it adds up. How could Jesus die for my sins 2000 years before I was even born, unless he somehow got us a free pass for committing sin, which again doesn't make any sense, considering what sin is. God could have just forgiven us without any blood sacrifice.

[calpurnpiso]

Welcome!...Hmm..if you believe in the god of the Babble ( my spelling) don't you believe in all of the trappings that come with him ( miracles, floating souls, angels, demons etc)? what about Matthew's (27: 52-54) Night of the Ancient living Dead?..after all, these living corpses witness the resurrection first hand, since it activated them to spring to life...Do you believe this happen?
I believe that it happened, crazy as it may sound. It does not appear to me that they were "ancient". I will need to check the original language, but from my understanding looking at different translations, they could have been dead only a short time, such as Lazurus, or maybe longer. The half-decayed zombie picture that you conjour up does not seem to reflect what is written in that passage.

However, having the dead walk through town would definately convince me of a few things... if I wasn't already convinced.

Tell me, do we produce our thoughts with our brains or does this organ pick them up from god, like a radio?....:)
What does science tell you?
Remember, unlike you I know what science says...I'm asking what do you believe. If I give you psychoactive drugs isn't your thinking DISTORTED and you may "see and hear" a god or two?. True or false?. Do you think the gospel writers where sober and psychoactive substances were unknown in those times? If I give LSD ( a derivative of natural occurring clavicepts purpurea fungus of rye -ergot) to a Christian without his knowledge, don't you think he'll be writing his experience of having seen god and angels?...:)

[ghoulslime]

We're coming to get you, Wigwam!

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/nfr-dead.jpg

[WigWam]

We're coming to get you, Wigwam!

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/nfr-dead.jpg
Nice! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[ghoulslime]

We're coming to get you, Wigwam!

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/nfr-dead.jpg
Nice! :lol::lol::lol::lol:
By the way, just so you'll know ahead of time, I'm a really nasty guy, though much of it is done with a smile.

[WigWam]

It seems that you are into the time honored tradition of trying to rationalize your blind faith in the veracity of the Bible.
"Sin - Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God." from dictionary.com.
I am not trying to rationalize based on the Bible, but if I say that I believe the Bible, and we are discussing that belief, then it is important to understand what it actually says so that we are both arguing for/against the same thing.

I can say that I think Apples are far superior to anything similar, and you think I am talking about Apple Computers and I am really talking about the fruit, it is kind of pointless to continue the discussion until we are at least talking about the same thing, right? An extreme example, but it does illustrate why I will quote and discuss passages in the Bible here. It is not to justify my faith in and of itself, but only to clarify a position, or to compare it with other areas, such as science.

Now as I understand, Jesus died for our sins. Being son of God, it's unreasonable for him to have to die so that God can forgive people. Also since Jesus came back from the dead, God didn't actually 'give His only son', but rather decided to have the cake and eat it too. I guess when you're God, you can cheat like that. In any case none of it adds up. How could Jesus die for my sins 2000 years before I was even born, unless he somehow got us a free pass for committing sin, which again doesn't make any sense, considering what sin is. God could have just forgiven us without any blood sacrifice.
He could have, but it would not have fulfilled the prophecies or the laws and culture set down prior. It also may not have achieved His goal. Remember, it didn't just start with Jesus. We have the thousands of years of history prior to that.

Now, I am definitely not an expert in this area, but here is what I do understand.

Under the old Jewish law, one would be required to make a sacrifice on the Day of Atonement to cover ones sins. This was usually a calf, or something similar. This however was only good enough to cover the sins, not cleanse. Also, this had to be repeated each year.

Jesus, being free from sin himself, was different. Being a man, God's son, and being sin free became the ultimate sacrifice... one that would not only cover the sins, but cleanse as well. His sacrifice was one that could remove all sins, from here until the end of time. He did die and was separated from God for those three earth days before He was resurrected.

Basically, there was a catch with this sacrifice. The catch is that you have to accept it. When someone hands you a gift you can accept the gift, or reject the gift. The gift here is that, if you accept His going to the cross on your behalf, then you get the benefit of His sacrifice and your sins are forgiven. He bought and paid for your life with His death.

A sacrifice was needed to pay for you.

As for the cake, everyone lives after death. With Jesus however, "death" could not keep Him and he was brought back to Earth before returning to the Father from which He came.

Now whether that is having you cake and eating it too, or finding a loophole, or whatever, that is for you to decide. Maybe He was just pulling a fast one on Satan :) .

[Lurker]

You see, lurker refuses to give up her reasons.
There you go again with the "her" talk. I'm a guy/he/dude/male. I don't refuse to give up my reasons. I just haven't heard any good reason to justify giving them up.

[Evil_Mage_Ra]

You see, lurker refuses to give up her reasons.
There you go again with the "her" talk. I'm a guy/he/dude/male. I don't refuse to give up my reasons. I just haven't heard any good reason to justify giving them up.
'Cause it may convince the rest of us?

[whoneedscience]

I just haven't heard any good reason to justify giving them up.
Is being a theist lurking around an atheist forum not reason enough? Or is that just the blind faith issue rearing its ugly head again?

So yes, theists, do tell me what separates your god from the multitude of other dieties worshiped around the world. And while you're at it, why exactly do we need any concept of god to begin with?

[Lurker]

If lurker doesn't want to reveal reasons to us then just leave it at that. It's a ladies' prerogative you know.......
Always the class clown...

[Jennifer]

Freash meat - by which I mean Welcome

last i remember lurker played stupid and pretended to not understand one of the most solid theories in science...but hey...if you believe in god you have to believe in yourself...cause otherwise you're just some nutjob hanging around in a forum defending your imaginary friend
Being self confident and being a nutjob are mutually exclusive?....wow I feel much better.

[Lurker]

I just haven't heard any good reason to justify giving them up.
Is being a theist lurking around an atheist forum not reason enough? Or is that just the blind faith issue rearing its ugly head again?

So yes, theists, do tell me what separates your god from the multitude of other dieties worshiped around the world. And while you're at it, why exactly do we need any concept of god to begin with?
I give up my reasons for believing simply because I'm here on this forum? I don't see how that follows.

[Jennifer]

We're coming to get you, Wigwam!

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/nfr-dead.jpg
And we are lookin Good!

[Lurker]

Better than being the assclown, as I think you know all to well.
Ohhh, good comeback.

[ghoulslime]

If lurker doesn't want to reveal reasons to us then just leave it at that. It's a ladies' prerogative you know.......
Always the class clown...
Teabag, say you are sorry to Miss Lurker, right now!!!

[ghoulslime]

Better than being the assclown, as I think you know all to well.
Ohhh, good comeback.
I though it was rather good actually. I'm glad you agree
Actually, I would prefer to see you come on his face.

[ghoulslime]

sorry miss lurker :(
That's more like it! :o Now shake hands, bend her over, and make her feel like a real woman! :D

[whoneedscience]

I give up my reasons for believing simply because I'm here on this forum? I don't see how that follows.
That's nice, considering it's not at all what I said.

[snap crafter]

You see, lurker refuses to give up her reasons.
There you go again with the "her" talk. I'm a guy/he/dude/male. I don't refuse to give up my reasons. I just haven't heard any good reason to justify giving them up.
Ok lurker hunny, I'm gonna explain something to you that you must have missed in the 3rd grade. When you say something to the effect of 'I know why so and so is not hear' the others in the class would then follow by saying 'Why?'. If you respond by saying 'I'm not gonna tell you' it tells the class that you haven't the faintest idea. What you did was say that you had logical reasons to believe in your god, and then tell me their all over the site. I ask you to repeat them for me in a paragraph or so because the links you gave had no logical reasons whatsoever. So far you have completely ignored me, what does this tell me about you missy?

And ghoul... Thank you for bringing the glory of George Romero to this board, NotLD was a really really good movie.

[Eva]

girls, girls, please behave!

[calpurnpiso]

You see, lurker refuses to give up her reasons.
There you go again with the "her" talk. I'm a guy/he/dude/male. I don't refuse to give up my reasons. I just haven't heard any good reason to justify giving them up.
Ok lurker hunny, I'm gonna explain something to you that you must have missed in the 3rd grade. When you say something to the effect of 'I know why so and so is not hear' the others in the class would then follow by saying 'Why?'. If you respond by saying 'I'm not gonna tell you' it tells the class that you haven't the faintest idea. What you did was say that you had logical reasons to believe in your god, and then tell me their all over the site. I ask you to repeat them for me in a paragraph or so because the links you gave had no logical reasons whatsoever. So far you have completely ignored me, what does this tell me about you missy?

And ghoul... Thank you for bringing the glory of George Romero to this board, NotLD was a really really good movie.
Hmm........Romero got the idea of the movie from Matthew 27:52-54 "Night of the Living Ancient Dead", whom he incorporate in the Gospels specially since Marc had not placed any eye witness to the "resurrection", so he used corpses of saints....I think he has a dog or cat also resurrecting....I bet those ancient folks love the stories and told them to their unruly children..so they would behave.....:)

[God, my arse]

Welcome!...Hmm..if you believe in the god of the Babble ( my spelling) don't you believe in all of the trappings that come with him ( miracles, floating souls, angels, demons etc)? what about Matthew's (27: 52-54) Night of the Ancient living Dead?..after all, these living corpses witness the resurrection first hand, since it activated them to spring to life...Do you believe this happen?
I believe that it happened, crazy as it may sound. It does not appear to me that they were "ancient". I will need to check the original language, but from my understanding looking at different translations, they could have been dead only a short time, such as Lazurus, or maybe longer. The half-decayed zombie picture that you conjour up does not seem to reflect what is written in that passage.

However, having the dead walk through town would definately convince me of a few things... if I wasn't already convinced.

Tell me, do we produce our thoughts with our brains or does this organ pick them up from god, like a radio?....:)
What does science tell you?
Remember, unlike you I know what science says...I'm asking what do you believe. If I give you psychoactive drugs isn't your thinking DISTORTED and you may "see and hear" a god or two?. True or false?. Do you think the gospel writers where sober and psychoactive substances were unknown in those times? If I give LSD ( a derivative of natural occurring clavicepts purpurea fungus of rye -ergot) to a Christian without his knowledge, don't you think he'll be writing his experience of having seen god and angels?...:)
Did you mention zombies? people rising from the dead? that would be billions and billion, tens of millions of people die a year and times that by hundreds and thousands of years, YIKES!

[Rhinoqulous]

Well, before I start diving in here and posting I thought I would introduce myself a little bit.

I have been a believer all of my life and have a facination with arguments against it.

I believe that everyone has a right to an opinion and to make up their mind for themselves. I am just here to offer alternative answers, and to keep you on your toes, as I hope you will keep me on my toes.

I believe that their are logical reasons to be an Atheist, and there are logical reasons to be a Theist, as you call us, and that both a valid viewpoints (even though, I am a strong believer in the latter viewpoint).

I hope to have some good discussions here and hope that you don't mind a Raving Thiest in your midsts.

BTW, I more of a logical guy... and not always a perfect speller. Pleez excuze mi typin in advanze.
Greetings, WigWam. I'm sure plenty of posters here will keep you on your toes (or may already have, I have a weekends worth of posts to sludge through). I'm interested in hearing what your logical reasons for both theism and atheism are.

Rhinoq

[TheSnake]

Under the old Jewish law, one would be required to make a sacrifice on the Day of Atonement to cover ones sins. This was usually a calf, or something similar.
Jesus, being free from sin himself, was different. Being a man, God's son, and being sin free became the ultimate sacrifice... one that would not only cover the sins, but cleanse as well. His sacrifice was one that could remove all sins, from here until the end of time. He did die and was separated from God for those three earth days before He was resurrected.
Why is God so interested in blood sacrifice? What sense is there for God to sacrifice Jesus for Himself?

Basically, there was a catch with this sacrifice. The catch is that you have to accept it. When someone hands you a gift you can accept the gift, or reject the gift. The gift here is that, if you accept His going to the cross on your behalf, then you get the benefit of His sacrifice and your sins are forgiven. He bought and paid for your life with His death.
Again, why does God have to pay to Himself for Him to forgive us? A gift is given without ulterior motives. I may reject a gift of a friend and my friend might be upset, but unlike God, my friend won't torture me for an eternity if I don't accept the gift. Furthermore I didn't ask Jesus to die for me, so I have no obligation to accept. Why would God punish me for not accepting His 'gift'?

A sacrifice was needed to pay for you.
Why? All God needs to do is show me that he exists, show me what and why I'm doing wrong and I'd ask for forgiveness for my sins if I agree that I've done something wrong unto Him.

As for the cake, everyone lives after death. With Jesus however, "death" could not keep Him and he was brought back to Earth before returning to the Father from which He came.
A lot of people end up spending an eternity in Hell after a life of suffering, so the 'sacrifice' of Jesus seems rather small in comparison.

Now whether that is having you cake and eating it too, or finding a loophole, or whatever, that is for you to decide. Maybe He was just pulling a fast one on Satan :) .
Was He offering salvation to Satan too?

[Tenspace]

Under the old Jewish law, one would be required to make a sacrifice on the Day of Atonement to cover ones sins. This was usually a calf, or something similar. This however was only good enough to cover the sins, not cleanse. Also, this had to be repeated each year.
I was taught that Yom Kippur freed us from our sins of the past year, not covered up like a deodorant, but removed, like a nice shower. Keep in mind that Jews don't believe that Christ was our sin vacuum. We verbally expressed our sins and received forgiveness.

Tenspace

Edit - Welcome to the forum! Nice to have more theists on board. Lurker and Thomas need a break every once in awhile. :)

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Tenspace said; "Welcome to the forum! Nice to have more theists on board. Lurker and Thomas need a break every once in awhile. "

Don't forget chattanoogajack and lumpy.

[Tenspace]

Yes, I haven't been posting much. I need to revisit a certain thread with Lumpy, too. :)

Tenspace

[WigWam]

Under the old Jewish law, one would be required to make a sacrifice on the Day of Atonement to cover ones sins. This was usually a calf, or something similar.
Jesus, being free from sin himself, was different. Being a man, God's son, and being sin free became the ultimate sacrifice... one that would not only cover the sins, but cleanse as well. His sacrifice was one that could remove all sins, from here until the end of time. He did die and was separated from God for those three earth days before He was resurrected.
Why is God so interested in blood sacrifice? What sense is there for God to sacrifice Jesus for Himself?
It was done for our benefit, not for God's. For one thing, humans seem to like this symbolic stuff :).

You will notice, though, that it then brought an end to blood sacrifices. People were no longer bound by the sacrifice laws. I believe that setting up this kind of a system was not feasible with the state of the culture and civilization in earlier times. God doesn't want to directly interfere with free will, and so the old law was set down in a way that would be both pleasing to God and understandable to the people.

Of course, this is just my interpretation and understanding. Also, blood of animals is not the same as blood of humans. Humans are the only living animals on planet earth mentioned in the Bible as having a soul.


Basically, there was a catch with this sacrifice. The catch is that you have to accept it. When someone hands you a gift you can accept the gift, or reject the gift. The gift here is that, if you accept His going to the cross on your behalf, then you get the benefit of His sacrifice and your sins are forgiven. He bought and paid for your life with His death.
Again, why does God have to pay to Himself for Him to forgive us? A gift is given without ulterior motives. I may reject a gift of a friend and my friend might be upset, but unlike God, my friend won't torture me for an eternity if I don't accept the gift. Furthermore I didn't ask Jesus to die for me, so I have no obligation to accept. Why would God punish me for not accepting His 'gift'?
That a gift is given without ulterior motives are absolutely correct. And you are right in that if you choose not to accept the gift that God would not be pleased, but it is your choice to make.

However, the eternity of torture is not the punishment for not accepting the gift, but it is the consequence of not accepting it.

Lets say your friend gave you a bar of chocolate, for example (I must be craving chocolate right now). If you accepted it, you would have a bar of chocolate. If you didn't, you would not have a bar of chocolate (and may have an insulted friend). The same could be said with an invitation to a party. Either you go and join the party, or you don't, and may be miserable. (Although, I have been at some very miserable parties...)

This is very similar. If you accept the gift of forgiveness and the keys to eternal life with God, then you get just that. If you don't accept the gift, you are left with the sin and don't get to spend your eternal life with God. Now, since you are not with God, you are then separated from Him, which is then described as like fire burning, or the "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

A sacrifice was needed to pay for you.
Why? All God needs to do is show me that he exists, show me what and why I'm doing wrong and I'd ask for forgiveness for my sins if I agree that I've done something wrong unto Him.
God doesn't have to show you anything. First, it his prerogative. Secondly, He declares that you will know that He exists by looking at his creation... the world around you. Third, there are those people that just refuse to believe even if God came down and told them to their face.

As for the cake, everyone lives after death. With Jesus however, "death" could not keep Him and he was brought back to Earth before returning to the Father from which He came.
A lot of people end up spending an eternity in Hell after a life of suffering, so the 'sacrifice' of Jesus seems rather small in comparison.
First, imagine the being that created you becoming His own creation to experience suffering like we do... that in itself is amazing.

Second, if you are suffering from life, than you need a change. Try Christianity! (now I sound like a vacation salesman).

Third, no one would need to suffer Hell if they accept the gift, so then the comparison doesn't really seem to fit.

Now whether that is having you cake and eating it too, or finding a loophole, or whatever, that is for you to decide. Maybe He was just pulling a fast one on Satan :) .
Was He offering salvation to Satan too?
Why do you ask? Do you know him?

Seriously, though, Satan is not human - he is just a spiritual being. We are told that we are to be higher than the angels because of the trials we have faced here on earth. The offer was only made to mankind -- at least, that we know of. Any other offer was not recorded.

[TheSnake]

It was done for our benefit, not for God's. For one thing, humans seem to like this symbolic stuff :).
Some humans perhaps do. I don't, except for entertainment.

You will notice, though, that it then brought an end to blood sacrifices.
Hardly so. The Inquisition sure did a fine job at continuing the ancient traditions of human sacrifice.

Of course, this is just my interpretation and understanding. Also, blood of animals is not the same as blood of humans. Humans are the only living animals on planet earth mentioned in the Bible as having a soul.
So the suffering of souless animals is of no concern? With or without souls, how can sacrificing animals make God forgive sins? Doesn't make any sense.

That a gift is given without ulterior motives are absolutely correct. And you are right in that if you choose not to accept the gift that God would not be pleased, but it is your choice to make.

However, the eternity of torture is not the punishment for not accepting the gift, but it is the consequence of not accepting it.

Lets say your friend gave you a bar of chocolate, for example (I must be craving chocolate right now). If you accepted it, you would have a bar of chocolate. If you didn't, you would not have a bar of chocolate (and may have an insulted friend). The same could be said with an invitation to a party. Either you go and join the party, or you don't, and may be miserable. (Although, I have been at some very miserable parties...)

This is very similar. If you accept the gift of forgiveness and the keys to eternal life with God, then you get just that. If you don't accept the gift, you are left with the sin and don't get to spend your eternal life with God. Now, since you are not with God, you are then separated from Him, which is then described as like fire burning, or the "weeping and gnashing of teeth".
It's nothing similar. If I don't go to a party, I can always go to a party next time. I might feel miserable, but no-one is going to torture me. God supposedly created me so I didn't have any choice in the first place. Now it's either accept his 'gift' or He'll send me to be eternally tortured in Hell. There's no third option, like going to some other party or buying my own chocolate bar.

God doesn't have to show you anything.
God doesn't have to show me anything, but He shouldn't expect anything from me then either.

Secondly, He declares that you will know that He exists by looking at his creation... the world around you.
He sure did a poor job at that. I see nothing that would indicate that any sort of god would exist, let alone the God of the Bible.

Third, there are those people that just refuse to believe even if God came down and told them to their face.
I'm not one of them.

First, imagine the being that created you becoming His own creation to experience suffering like we do... that in itself is amazing.
He created the suffering, so it's only fair that He gets a little taste of it too.

Second, if you are suffering from life, than you need a change. Try Christianity! (now I sound like a vacation salesman).

Third, no one would need to suffer Hell if they accept the gift, so then the comparison doesn't really seem to fit.
I'm not talking about myself. A lot of people who haven't even heard of this 'gift' and are bound to Hell are suffering as we write.

Why do you ask? Do you know him?

Seriously, though, Satan is not human - he is just a spiritual being. We are told that we are to be higher than the angels because of the trials we have faced here on earth. The offer was only made to mankind -- at least, that we know of. Any other offer was not recorded.
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/index.htm

[Advocatus Diaboli]

WigWam,

You offer no evidence that anything you say has any basis in reality. You say things like; "Secondly, He declares that you will know that He exists by looking at his creation." Since there are other explainations than the one you offer for "creation" as you put it, you cannot logically KNOW that your answer is the right one. Someone could show you a piece of crap and tell you that you will KNOW that Fred made it by looking at it. What a stupid argument that would be. Maybe Doris or Ethel or Jim made it. Maybe it was made by other means than you KNOW.

You say; "However, the eternity of torture is not the punishment for not accepting the gift, but it is the consequence of not accepting it."

If what you believe is true, then wouldn't God KNOW what you were going to do before you did it? Either he KNOWS EVERYTHING or he doesn't. Period. If he KNOWS everything and if he created everything, then he is creating people he KNOWS will be suffering eternal torment and if he doesn't KNOW everything, then he isn't the god you claim he is. Ether he KNOWS or he doesn't KNOW and any "free will" argument is BS. Does he KNOW EVERYTHING or dosen't he? Even if I were to allow some stupid "free will" argument, the idea that a "surpreme being" would allow anyone to be eternally tormented is BS.

You say; "First, imagine the being that created you becoming His own creation to experience suffering like we do... that in itself is amazing."

It is so amazing because it is a bunch of crap. Get a clue; it never happened.

If my great-grandfather killed your mother do you think that I should have to pay the price for it? That is the stupid idea behind the Adam and Eve story. If I killed your mother, do you think you would be satisfied with my grandfather doing time for it and letting me off??? That is the stupid idea behind the Jesus story.

Everyone is responsible for his or her own actions. They shouldn't have to be held guilty for the actions of anyone else and no one else can assume the guilt for anyone else.

No baby is born a "sinner" and they are innocent of any crime that anyone before them may have commited.

I am not a "sinner" and I don't need anybody else to "save" me from "sins" I didn't commit.

I have a much higher moral standard than your "God" and I am more moral. I don't need or respect this "God" of yours and I have to tell you that he is a figment of your imagination.

I'm sorry to be so rough, but you are almost not worth addressing with your ignorance -- and your arguments are tiresomely stupid. I tried to resist making a comment but I couldn't hold back any longer.

[vsxd903s]

That a gift is given without ulterior motives are absolutely correct. And you are right in that if you choose not to accept the gift that God would not be pleased, but it is your choice to make.

However, the eternity of torture is not the punishment for not accepting the gift, but it is the consequence of not accepting it.

Lets say your friend gave you a bar of chocolate, for example (I must be craving chocolate right now). If you accepted it, you would have a bar of chocolate. If you didn't, you would not have a bar of chocolate (and may have an insulted friend). The same could be said with an invitation to a party. Either you go and join the party, or you don't, and may be miserable. (Although, I have been at some very miserable parties...)

This is very similar. If you accept the gift of forgiveness and the keys to eternal life with God, then you get just that. If you don't accept the gift, you are left with the sin and don't get to spend your eternal life with God. Now, since you are not with God, you are then separated from Him, which is then described as like fire burning, or the "weeping and gnashing of teeth".
It's nothing similar. If I don't go to a party, I can always go to a party next time. I might feel miserable, but no-one is going to torture me. God supposedly created me so I didn't have any choice in the first place. Now it's either accept his 'gift' or He'll send me to be eternally tortured in Hell. There's no third option, like going to some other party or buying my own chocolate bar.

God doesn't have to show you anything.
God doesn't have to show me anything, but He shouldn't expect anything from me then either.

Secondly, He declares that you will know that He exists by looking at his creation... the world around you.
He sure did a poor job at that. I see nothing that would indicate that any sort of god would exist, let alone the God of the Bible.]
Very good points.


Third, there are those people that just refuse to believe even if God came down and told them to their face.
I'm not one of them.
I don't think there are very many atheists that would refuse to believe if he came down in front of our face. In fact, that's what most of us are looking for.

[HarryIsAlwaysRight]

Can i see a pic of you lurker? i bet you're one hot momma. kiss kiss xx

[honeybadger]

"I have been a believer all of my life and have a facination with arguments against it."

well I've been a nonbeliever all my life and have a fascination with arguments for belief (as well as a great deal of confusion and fright about belief)

"I believe that everyone has a right to an opinion and to make up their mind for themselves."

good, that proves you are more tolerant than many believers.

"I believe that their are logical reasons to be an Atheist"

wow, I've never heard a believer say that before!

"I hope to have some good discussions here and hope that you don't mind a Raving Thiest in your midsts."

ah, if you only knew how many hours I spent trying to talk sense into people at ibelieve.com and other Christian forums, what a complete waste of time! I even got kicked off by the administrator on a couple of them, once they kicked me off within a single hour simply because I tried to argue that homosexuality is not sinful, scary, eh? I think I convinced a couple people that I truly was the AntiChrist herself. anyway, my point is that you appear to be a vastly more reasonable believer than dozens whom I have talked to online.

[Little Earth Stamper]

Hell is simply the absence of god.

This argument is an attempt to deal with the fact that Heaven and Hell don't seem moral or fair. Why cause an atheist unbearable pain for the rest of his life? Does he deserve to be stuck in a place that makes Dachau look like a preschool for the rest of eternity?

But this new "absence of god" idea still doesn't work. It ignores the atheists who kept praying for a visitation from god and never got it.

It ignores the virtuous heathen. does the Dalai Lama end up in Heaven or Hell? He wasn't a Christian, but he worked to be closer to god.

And lastly, it ignores the sinner who tried to serve god. The people who worked in the Inquisition murdered people in the most horrible fashions because they thought it was what god wanted. Do they get to go to heaven because they loved god, while any atheists they happened to cath go on to even more misery? Or do they have to go to hell, because god didn't bother to mention that um, hey, he doesn't really like it when you subject other humans to unbearable pain?

Heaven and Hell are always unjust, no matter what.

[whoneedscience]

I don't think there are very many atheists that would refuse to believe if he came down in front of our face. In fact, that's what most of us are looking for.
I don't know about that. From a philosophical standpoint, I don't find Christainity, or any religion, acceptable at all. I don't think I'd change anything in my life if God came down and told me he exists. It still doesn't explain the difference in opinion of the billions of religious people in the world.

[snap crafter]

So if God told you which was the one to believe would you then in turn believe it since he's standing right there proving himself?

[Advocatus Diaboli]

"There ain't no Jesus gonna come from the sky."

- John Lennon, "I Found Out"

[Little Earth Stamper]

The word "belief" is tricky when it comes to Christianity, because it implies not just a belief in god's existence and his powers, but also a belief in his morality and suitibility as a leader.

the first half of belief would be easy to prove to atheists, while the second would be more difficult, as god would have to explain why he allowed, say, the holocaust.