Theory vs Faith

[Tib]

First I wanta say hello to everyone I am a new guy and another addition to the "Theist" group :p
Yea another one, I stumbled on this site while reading about "Priory of Sion" if you dont know what that is look it up, pretty interesting. Anyway I believe in God and by God I mean the God of Abraham and Isaac the God whos only son Jesus came to earth to die for us so that we might know him God. :)

So far from what I have read most of you seem to be pretty intelligent in that you know what you believe and have a good concept in your mind of what logic and science are. I want to say that I respect the views and ideas and will not bash I just come looking for honest conversation about your world. So you all know I am currently a Minister with the Church of God and will soon be pursuing the long road in obtaining my Doctorate in Christian Theology.

So my first observation about athiesm is this, for the most part everyone I have known including some friends who are athiest cannot concieve or dont think much about the idea of faith. God and the entire Bible are founded on the principle's of faith. As soon as you try to explain how a being can just create things out of thin air by merely speaking them into existence you pretty much throw out all logic but that is faith. The bible says and this is how I believe that Faith is the "substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen" I think its funny when people try to explain things in the Bible without including the God Factor because you cant. God just is, and logically if you look at the chances of a single cell organism growing into a starfish you get into the same realm statistically of an all knowing powerful being or creator. The fact that the theory of evolution is drawn mostly on chance or the idea that given enough time anything is possible (Billions of Years) should show you something. Last I checked evolution is still a theory.

So really to me it just boils down to this, to have faith is to believe in something you cant see but believe through evidence being experience, feeling, personal testimony of events etc. A Theory is an assumption based on information gathered in this case I was using evolution. But maybe you can see my point.

I find it funny that us human beings using only 10% of our brains think we can understand everything in this huge universe and the fact of God just is stupid because we cant explain it. To me that defies all logic. Anyway post thoughts, views etc I am done rambling :)

oh and if this should be in another thread topic my bad...just wanted give everyone an idea of my ideas etc.

[Eva]

.............*gosh*..........

and on top of everything, he gives us the 10% of our brain pseudoargument.......

tibby, honey....first of all, Hi.
second, it's spelled athEIst.
i'll stop at that.

welcome.

[Switch25]

First I wanta say hello to everyone I am a new guy and another addition to the "Theist" group :p
Yea another one, I stumbled on this site while reading about "Priory of Sion" if you dont know what that is look it up, pretty interesting. Anyway I believe in God and by God I mean the God of Abraham and Isaac the God whos only son Jesus came to earth to die for us so that we might know him God. :)
Welcome to the forum Tib!! Glad to have another theist on board.

So my first observation about athiesm is this, for the most part everyone I have known including some friends who are athiest cannot concieve or dont think much about the idea of faith. God and the entire Bible are founded on the principle's of faith. As soon as you try to explain how a being can just create things out of thin air by merely speaking them into existence you pretty much throw out all logic but that is faith.
Are you saying that logic is faith? The bible is filled with some really bad stuff that God himself did (and things he told others to do), are we supposed to accept that he is good on faith?

I think its funny when people try to explain things in the Bible without including the God Factor because you cant. God just is, and logically if you look at the chances of a single cell organism growing into a starfish you get into the same realm statistically of an all knowing powerful being or creator.
A single cell organism can't grow into a starfish, that's not evolution. And yes there could be an all powerful being, but how do you know it's your god? What do you mean by the "God factor"?

The fact that the theory of evolution is drawn mostly on chance or the idea that given enough time anything is possible (Billions of Years) should show you something. Last I checked evolution is still a theory.
Actually the theory of evolution is drawn on by facts. Oh, and theory in the scientific term is:

"a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world"- from wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

In other words: a scientific theory is our best explanation of something based on facts.

[abortionman]

we don't use 10% of our brain...that was a urban myth from some commerical...or some shit like that (i don't care enough to look it up)

we use 100% and even if we didn't...we CAN understand everything (materialism damnit!) and the idea of god is stupid

[Evil_Mage_Ra]

I'm gonna start off by pointing out that Eva's right--it's not true that we only use 10% of our brains: http://www.csicop.org/si/9903/ten-percent-myth.html

Also, while I don't pretend to be an expert on evolution myself, it's my understanding that evolution is not an entirely random process. Sure, the mutations that produce the variation in the genes in the first place is random, but there's an important second step--that is, the differential reproductive success produced by that variation in genes. Over time, traits that help an organism to survive and produce more offspring will become more common in the population.

While a single cell has never been observed to evolve into, say, a starfish in a lab setting (for one thing, such a process would take too long!), speciation following the Darwinian model has been observed, both in the lab and in the wild (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html). We know through radioactive dating that the Earth is billions of years old. We know through fossil evidence that many species existed in the past that do not exist today, and that many species that exist today did not exist in the past. So given a large enough time frame and a mechanism that works, I don't think it takes that much of a leap to say that modern species evolved naturally from ancient species, even if we don't know each and every step connecting the single-celled organism to the starfish.

From what I understand, the only missing piece is how the first single-celled organism arose from the so-called primordial soup (though we have some clues as to how this might have happened). Abiogenesis is an active area of research today.

Anyway, the way I see it, while science and reason may have their limits, they're still the best tools we've got when it comes to understanding how our universe works. Otherwise, how do you know you're not dealing with a wild guess? How do you know which possibility is right?

[Jennifer]

Tib - 1. State your conjectures. 2. Disclose the testing that you have used to reach your theory, and 3. Make testable predictions based on your theory. Do it all without mentioning anyone elses theory - because - after all - your theory should be able to stand on its own two feet. A theory(or even a fact) that is only a default is not a theory (or fact).

[Tib]

ok I am trying to take all this in so humor me. First off try not to judge too much on my grammer in this forum I wont take the time to always check proper spelling and if thats the only comeback you have try again. Oh and hi back :)

Next I actually havent heard much on that 10% argument but ill look into, I do have trouble believing as complex as the human brain is that we actually use all of it but thats just opinion I will read those links. I am not saying logic is faith I am just saying believing in something or someone just because without seeing hard evidence defies logic. And so we stand on faith which is what we hope for and evidence of things we cant see but feel (I can get into that more if you want)

As for the starfish comment that was just an example but according to evolution that entire process statisically is huge which is what I was getting at with the chance thing, this is the def of Theory btw as I understand according to www.dictionary.com
"A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena"

according to that, its a group of facts pulled together to make a "prediction" and evolution still has not been proven am I wrong?
but like you said its our best explanation which goes back to what I said, if we can barely get on the moon how can we attempt to understand or try to say there is or isnt a God. In this case my argument is just is there a God or No because if your an "ATHEIST" then you dont believe an all poweful being exists period.

and to Evil Mage evolution is based on chance which means yes given enough time anything is possible basically. But to my point is we as a race go by the If we cant explain it its not real and that is just absurd given the limits we are at how can we really say anything. Sure we have fossils, we have carbon dating (Which I am not sure if thats exactly 100% is it?) but we still have not managed to explain where we came from with 100% proof, correct me if I am wrong.

[Little Earth Stamper]

Theory is important to me, because it is how I came to my atheisticness. Essentially, all religions are hypotheses; attmpts to explain the why of the world.

The problem is, as I have explored traditional religions I have discovered that they don't explain all the available evidence. For example, Christianity doesn't have a good explanation of why religion arose in the Americas, or why Christ didn't go to the Americas.

So I ask myself if there are theories that would account for this anomolous evidence. One theory that does account for this is atheism.

So there you go.

[Tenspace]

Tib, Welcome. It's good that you approach atheists from such a rational standpoint... for a theist, anyway. :)

I hope you come away from your visits richer, and with a broader sense of just how much knowledge is out there. It's surprising what we humans have learned in the last hundred years. Funny thing is, no one cares about knowledge anymore. Well, some of us do, but the general populace, especially here in the US care less about the wonderful things we've recently learned in cosmology, biology, and other sciences. We take for granted the advances in knowledge - too much knowledge for some.

I'll use some of your examples for my examples, if you don't mind. :) First, the "10% brain" comment. I see that you've already been assaulted with links and the like; I just want to add that we use 100% of our brain, but not all modules are firing and functioning at once. Have you ever heard of someone who takes major brain damage (a stroke, for example), yet since it occurred in the "90% we don't use part", they were unscathed? Of course not . The brain is divided into regions which are responsible for all the things that make us human. Penfield's Homunculus (http://dubinserver.colorado.edu/prj/mos/osgood3.htm) (sounds demonic, doesn't it) is an area of the brain that maps out directly with our body - click on the link for details. You might want to read up on brain structure - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain) is a good place to start.

I love the quote from Hebrews: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. " To me, that's a great example of the prose of the Bible. I just don't like the way Hebrews 11 ends... it's so violent and threatening.

As for the starfish comment that was just an example but according to evolution that entire process statisically is huge which is what I was getting at with the chance thing, this is the def of Theory btw as I understand according to www.dictionary.com
"A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena"
The starfish comment is a play on similar analogies; another recent one being, "from tadpole to frog". It's misleading, because "single cell organism growing into a starfish " is a description of development, not evolution. It took me two years to wrap my head around evolutionary theory well enough to be able to talk comfortably about it. I think many people don't want to invest that kind of time in the subject. Keep in mind that while Evolution is under attack as a valid scientific theory, it is being used as a valid scientific theory in university, government, and private research laboratories around the world. It's also the foundation of two of the fastest growing segments of the biological sciences, Evolutionary Biology and Mathematical/Theoretical Biology. These disciplines are at the forefront of our advances in genetics, oncology, and other medical fields.

Is Evolution a theory in the "scientific" sense? You mention the textbook definition of Theory. Are you familiar with the major theories in the different branches of science? You've got Einstein's Theory of Relativity (yet we don't question gravity or accelerated motion), then there's Maxwell, et al's Electromagnetic Theory, which is probably a good example of theory==fact, considering we wouldn't be conversing without it. Particle phycisists are particularly interested in the two Strong and Weak nuclear theories. Geologists have a bunch of theories they use to describe reality as well, like Plate Tectonics. Even the "soft" sciences are full of theories. Biology's cornerstone theory is Evolutionary Theory, hammered out by Darwin and others. Cognitive Neuroscience is developing a theory of many selves, while the up and coming mathematicians are flocking to the theory of Synchrony for an explanation of the bizarre self-organization of life.

Evolutionary theory is testable and predictable as well. Complex comparative analysis of fossil remains chart quite well with the existing taxonomies. Even genetic analysis is in the picture, and a whole new segment of molecular biology, Evolutionary Genetics is seeing success. Predictions? How about Darwin & Mendel's predictions of a mechanism behind their selection and mutation theories? Turns out Watson & Crick found it: DNA. And in science, you learn as much by disproving incorrect theories. Look at Lamarck, and his theory of acquired traits. Soundly disproven, since genetic information is not communicated "from the outside in".

Our best explanations have cured polio and other diseases. Our best explanations have put us on the moon, and sent manmade craft to the edges of our solar system. And you are absolutely right, we have no real "Best Explanation" for the origin of life. Fifty years ago we had no "Best Explanation" for the source of energy in the Sun. Now we understand nuclear fusion. A hundred years ago we had no clue what those smudges in the sky were - now we know they are galaxies, and there are hundreds of billions of them out there. We even discovered why there was a river of stars across the sky within the last hundred years.

Two hundred years ago, our Best Explanation for the origin of Man was a divine story. Now we have Evolutionary Theory.

One final note - Evolution says nothing about the origin of life, though it has plenty to say about the origin of Man. I wish that more theists understand this concept before arguing against a solid scientific discipline.

Sorry for the length... :)

Tenspace

[snooples]

First of all ,as usual with Christians ,they have been fed a straw man when it comes to Evolution. The word theory (when applied to evolutionary theory) is the best explanation that explains facts. This is the great virtue of science . It is always put out there to be knocked down by conflicting evidence , or elaborated on with new evidence . There are no docrines or absolutes ,only the principle of the scientific method as a means of gaining knowledge and understanding about all aspects of this universe. Evolution ,at this point is as much confirmed as an aspect of reality as the earth going around the sun. Some Christians grant that there can be change within (kinds) , a non-scientific bible term. But this does not stand up to the evidence!
The geologic column is a wide open book of life on earth. Insect evolution and extinction can be observed in action (the effects of pesticides) One must take all of the prescibed penecillin in order not to bring rise to a new generation of penecillin resistant bacteria! This process is not random in anyway whatsoever ! There are no hard barriers there ,time ,genetic diversity ,and environmental factors will lead to evolutionary change over time * .
Faith is believing in the truth of something with no reason to do so . It is held up as a virtue by Christians to protect the integrity of their system of belief,along with promises of life after death and the threat of eternal torture for non-belief. It is what has led to 1500 plus years of unspeakable attrocities against those intelligent and strong enough to stand up for their intellectual independence . It is anti-science ,anti-reality .
Don`t you think it is a bit funny that Christians insist on filling their kids with Christian doctrine ,long before they have had the ability to develop normal reasoning skills. (Raising em Christian) This is referred to as "memetic programming" ,or juvenile indoctrination ,by those of us who still have the capacity for freethought.
I do speak from experience on this. I was involved with a Christian woman once, I got to know her well, I knew her family. I know what`s going on here.
I would hope that you educate yourself a bit more before you continue this cycle any further. Snooples * (suggested reading-The Blind Watchmaker-Richard Dawkins ,Atheist Universe-David Mills ,The Case Against God-George H Smith)

[TheSnake]

I'd like to comment on the cell to starfish too, from a probabilistic point. Naturally the probability of a cell evolving through intermediate species all the way to a starfish might seem small, but the starfish is just one of the countless possibilities that a cell can evolve into. If I had to figure out the probability of life of the complexity of starfishes existing in the universe, I wouldn't even know where to begin. The Universe likely contains billions of earthlike planets capable of sustaining life. On how many of them would life have begun? Which of those cases would have evolved into something as complex as a starfish? As I see it, talking of probabilities of life in the context of the Theory of Evolution is meaningless until much more is known about it.

The fact is, however that evolution does happen. It's been observed directly. While it's not possible to construct a solid proof of life on Earth evolving all the way from the beginning to us, isn't it more reasonable to thing that a theory that has been show to be correct in some factual cases, could be extended to explain all of life? Compare that with explanations of divine origin of life. As far as I know, no-one has ever given any explanations of how God created life that would even come close to the Theory of Evolution. As God is personal, He also has a reason for creation. What is that reason? Why did God create life? Again, I've heard of no explanations that would add up with what we know about life. Thirdly, where did God come from? If his existence is eternal, how did that happen or how is it possible? And what is God?
The way I see it, using God as an explanation isn't any better than saying, "I don't know. It just happened." Where then is God needed?

[vheltrite]

you can rely more on theory rather than faith...........

[Tib]

great replys and I am reading your links and stuff, as I thought there are alot of you out there but hey how else am I suppose to get information?

I guess my main point here is really simple..
Science thrives on knowledge and explaining the unexplainble and I do love science and space and all those things and I have read my fair share of theory and the like so I'm not coming from left field here. But the basics are Science is here to explain and fix or find solution its how we get what we get. But in all of that, even with the advances we have made lets look at the big picture here. If you are Atheist you believe that there is no God, so essentially you rely on science to explain how the earth, the universe and all the stuff inbetween got here. So what was before , what is space expanding into??? See my point is we can only explain so much how can you reasonably say there is no God?? That takes faith on its own. You pursue Science and the like to get closer to the truth, but looking at everything... space is expanding into nothing faster than light, galaxies in the millions each galaxy the size of ours or bigger now we are finding black holes in the center of each galaxy. The complexity of the human body, etc, etc. Did this just all happen in your opinion out of nothing?

Believing in a God or creator doesnt sound so silly when you look at the big picture, sure you can use the ole God kills people hes a big meany and what about the crusades and the inquisition and Israelites killing all those people argument, but that is just a easy excuse kinda like my 10% thing. Let me try to explain my views about my belief and reply to those statements.

"What kind of God would let this happen"
Common saying, but what kind of God would not? I mean if we lived in a perfect life with no conflict no strife nothing to test us and try us would we still be living in a garden we would be no better we would be no stronger. What kind of God would force his will onto his followers? Instead he gives choices, sometimes we like to think a little too much about things and we think our way right into a coma. People are going to die, and alot of horrible things happen, mostly because of human evil you cant blame it on God if you dont believe in him for one, and two if you do its an easy cop out. Christians are people and people are just naturally evil thats why I for one do not believe in religion I think its a man made way to limit God, Jesus was never about religion in fact he spoke against it on a few occasions. I dont hate Homosexuals, in my belief they are just as wrong as those cheating or having pre-marital sex which I myself did so I cant judge I can try to help out of "LOVE". In the south they have a huge problem they say its wrong to drink an alcoholic beverage then after church will go eat all kinds of bad food when they themselves are 200lbs overweight so you see my point here you cant judge God based on what humans do. God is perfect, he is Truth and Love its us humans that screw everything up. I could go on and on about this as you can tell but there are alot of problems out there that people cause in the name of "Christianity" and it makes people think that its Gods fault. I really dont want to get into a religous conversation in this thread but I used that just to prove a point just like what was said to me. Dont use that "God let it happen" excuse if you dont really understand what you are saying especially if you dont believe in him.

In whole there are alot of things you cant explain alot of complex things did they just poof happen out of nowhere? If so that is faith.
And if you dont understand the Bible and God then dont throw the common arguments out and I will try not to with my points about evolution and faith :)

oh and snooples, just because you dated a christian women or w/e doesnt mean you really know much about the Bible there is a huge amount of stuff below the usually used skin of the common christian knowledge I would challenge you to read up on some things and I have read some of those books you pointed out.

[Rhinoqulous]

First I wanta say hello to everyone I am a new guy and another addition to the "Theist" group :p
Welcome, Tib. Thomas and Lurker need another person to help field arguments. Most of your arguments have been addressed, so I'll keep this short.

Last I checked evolution is still a theory.
As is gravity, which is why I'm petitioning the school board of North Dakota to teach the "Falling Love" theory, where gravity is explained through Love, and falling down is just the Earth giving you a hug.

Rhinoq

[Philboid Studge]

Hi Tib and welcome.

I guess my main point here is really simple. Science thrives on knowledge and explaining the unexplainble and I do love science and space and all those things and I have read my fair share of theory and the like so I'm not coming from left field here. But the basics are Science is here to explain and fix or find solution its how we get what we get. But in all of that, even with the advances we have made lets look at the big picture here. If you are Atheist you believe that there is no God, so essentially you rely on science to explain how the earth, the universe and all the stuff inbetween got here. So what was before , what is space expanding into??? See my point is we can only explain so much how can you reasonably say there is no God?? That takes faith on its own. You pursue Science and the like to get closer to the truth, but looking at everything... space is expanding into nothing faster than light, galaxies in the millions each galaxy the size of ours or bigger now we are finding black holes in the center of each galaxy. The complexity of the human body, etc, etc. Did this just all happen in your opinion out of nothing?
First, I'm pretty sure that science doesn't attempt to 'explain the unexplainable.' (But we've heard from many theists in this forum who are not at all comfortable with things being unexplained. Why is that? I find it wondrous and challenging that there are huge unaswered questions out there.) I really do not understand the rest of what you're saying at all, but it sounds like a variant of what we hear all the time from the faithful: the universe is so darn awesome, there must be a God! I just don't follow that line of thought at all.

[Tib]

Theory is important to me, because it is how I came to my atheisticness. Essentially, all religions are hypotheses; attmpts to explain the why of the world.

The problem is, as I have explored traditional religions I have discovered that they don't explain all the available evidence. For example, Christianity doesn't have a good explanation of why religion arose in the Americas, or why Christ didn't go to the Americas.

So I ask myself if there are theories that would account for this anomolous evidence. One theory that does account for this is atheism.

So there you go.
America was founded by men that were Christians, you can trace that back to england and from there it goes on and on so I am not sure I understand your point or question its pretty simple to see how this religion came to America. Christ for one only had 3 years to walk the earth in that time the most important place he could have dealt with because of the views and corruption was there with the pharisees I believe he did the most important work he had to do in the time given he did say "there are other sheep that need to be attended" which is why Paul and those started the early church and started preaching to other countries. If someone dies without hearing the word of God they are not held accountable by God.

[TheSnake]

If you are Atheist you believe that there is no God, so essentially you rely on science to explain how the earth, the universe and all the stuff inbetween got here. So what was before , what is space expanding into??? See my point is we can only explain so much how can you reasonably say there is no God?? That takes faith on its own. You pursue Science and the like to get closer to the truth, but looking at everything... space is expanding into nothing faster than light, galaxies in the millions each galaxy the size of ours or bigger now we are finding black holes in the center of each galaxy. The complexity of the human body, etc, etc. Did this just all happen in your opinion out of nothing?

...

"What kind of God would let this happen"
...
As it's not addresses on this thread yet, you've stumbled upon the subtle, but important difference of not believing in God vs. believing that God doesn't exist. I, for one, do not object to the idea of some kind of Creator. For all I know, UFOs could have landed on Earth a couple of billion years ago and seeded life on Earth or we could be living in the Matrix with the Universe just being a very complex computer program. I don't believe in any of those, but I do not have any way of proving that they aren't true, thus I can't really believe that we definitely are not in the Matrix. Maybe Keanu Reeves is going to come flying in a black dress, doing some weird Kung Fu soon. :P

As there just isn't any evidence of design in anything we see and opting for a designer as an explanation of the complexity of life just rises the question of how did the designer do it and why, I do not see any reason to believe in a designer, especially so because I know from experience that very complex behaviour can arrise in seemingly simple systems quite easily. I really do not see any faith issues here, particularly since I'm not in anyway relying/putting my faith in/trusting in a naturalistic explanation of life. It's just an explanation I have instead of having to say, "I don't know", something which I'm quite comfortable saying though.

[Rhinoqulous]

America was founded by men that were Christians, you can trace that back to england and from there it goes on and on so I am not sure I understand your point or question its pretty simple to see how this religion came to America.
Uhm, LES is referring to the religious practices of the Native Americans. You know, the ones that were here first, the ones the "Christian" settlers committed genocide against. You remember them?

Christ for one only had 3 years to walk the earth in that time the most important place he could have dealt with because of the views and corruption was there with the pharisees I believe he did the most important work he had to do in the time given he did say "there are other sheep that need to be attended" which is why Paul and those started the early church and started preaching to other countries. If someone dies without hearing the word of God they are not held accountable by God.
Isn't it more plausible that a religion that stems from another local religion would have the savior appear in the area where they live? Jesus didn't show up to save the Jews in Cleveland because there were no Jews in Cleveland at the time (unless you're a Mormon).

And if someone were not held accountable if they have never heard the word of God, wouldn't the best way to get everyone into heaven be to burn all religious texts and never speak of God again? If you've never heard of God, you're not accountable. Hey, this is a good idea: Salvation through Atheism!

Rhinoq

[Tib]

My point was based on evolution and life on this earth everyone has to believe in something "I dont know" I guess is a good way to not get involved really. But if you take a side science cant explain it they try but cant really, religion cant explain it but by faith. So you either choose one or the other, some have tried both but it usually ends up contradicting everything? The idea of a creator is just as reasonable as out of nothing comes something.

There was nothing, then we have stars and galaxies and planets with life so where did that come from?

[Philboid Studge]

There was nothing, then we have stars and galaxies and planets with life so where did that come from?
If your answer to this question is 'God' (or anything else for that matter), can't we apply the same question? Where did He come from?

[TheSnake]

My point was based on evolution and life on this earth everyone has to believe in something "I dont know" I guess is a good way to not get involved really. But if you take a side science cant explain it they try but cant really, religion cant explain it but by faith. So you either choose one or the other, some have tried both but it usually ends up contradicting everything? The idea of a creator is just as reasonable as out of nothing comes something.

There was nothing, then we have stars and galaxies and planets with life so where did that come from?
Why do you need to believe in something that isn't knowable? Why is it necessary to take sides? And why do you think that "I don't know" is a way to not get involved? Surely one can try to seek knowledge when one doesn't have it, that's what science is all about. Scientists are the ones to first admit how little they actually know.

[Tib]

Isn't it more plausible that a religion that stems from another local religion would have the savior appear in the area where they live? Jesus didn't show up to save the Jews in Cleveland because there were no Jews in Cleveland at the time (unless you're a Mormon).
Thats what I was saying, Jesus came to earth in the place where his religion was and he established a new convenant. That was the most important work to be done and those are "Gods People" so yea we agree on that. Maybe I didnt explain it good enough.

Uhm, LES is referring to the religious practices of the Native Americans. You know, the ones that were here first, the ones the "Christian" settlers committed genocide against. You remember them?
that really doesnt matter in this discussion, the point is that religion was brought over and passed on...We arent talking about the Indians being killed which I dont agree with so try to stick to the point. :)


And if someone were not held accountable if they have never heard the word of God, wouldn't the best way to get everyone into heaven be to burn all religious texts and never speak of God again? If you've never heard of God, you're not accountable. Hey, this is a good idea: Salvation through Atheism!
You are pretty good at bending things I will give you that. But my point is from the time that Adam and Eve started reproducing to now there are places that didnt get a chance to hear the word or hear of God. But unfortunatley for Atheism its already been started and there are lots of Christians around :(

[Rhinoqulous]

My point was based on evolution and life on this earth everyone has to believe in something "I dont know" I guess is a good way to not get involved really. But if you take a side science cant explain it they try but cant really, religion cant explain it but by faith. So you either choose one or the other, some have tried both but it usually ends up contradicting everything? The idea of a creator is just as reasonable as out of nothing comes something.

There was nothing, then we have stars and galaxies and planets with life so where did that come from?
When was there nothing? I doubt many of the atheists here (at least the science leaning ones) would claim the universe came from "nothing". There has always been "something", the "something" has just existed in different states (uhm, I'm blanking here, someone help me, is this "Phase Transition"?).

I don't know if it's because you're typing fast, but you're getting hard to understand. Your sentences don't make much sense. Slow down, take a deep breath, no need to rush.

Rhinoq

[Tib]

My point was based on evolution and life on this earth everyone has to believe in something "I dont know" I guess is a good way to not get involved really. But if you take a side science cant explain it they try but cant really, religion cant explain it but by faith. So you either choose one or the other, some have tried both but it usually ends up contradicting everything? The idea of a creator is just as reasonable as out of nothing comes something.

There was nothing, then we have stars and galaxies and planets with life so where did that come from?
Why do you need to believe in something that isn't knowable? Why is it necessary to take sides? And why do you think that "I don't know" is a way to not get involved? Surely one can try to seek knowledge when one doesn't have it, that's what science is all about. Scientists are the ones to first admit how little they actually know.
I agree with you on some of that, but why cant you believe in something you cant explain? There are things that you cant explain but you believe they are possibly true I am sure so whats the difference. Dont get me wrong I understand your point I am just offering a different view. As for "I dont know" I meant that in the sense of I thought you were saying you are not getting involved just bad interpretation on my part.

[Tib]

haha sorry your right I am typing too fast. But to believe there just was always something is kind of an easy explaination much like "we just believe because of faith" dont you think?

[Rhinoqulous]

Uhm, LES is referring to the religious practices of the Native Americans. You know, the ones that were here first, the ones the "Christian" settlers committed genocide against. You remember them?
that really doesnt matter in this discussion, the point is that religion was brought over and passed on...We arent talking about the Indians being killed which I dont agree with so try to stick to the point. :)
I bolded the key passage in the above paragraph. From your response, you have forgotten about the Native Peoples of the Americas. They did have religion before the good, wholesome white man came to edumacte them. So LES's question concerns where the religions practices of the Aztecs, Dakota, etc., came from, and also would you view faith in the/a Aztec god on level with faith in your god. I am sticking to the point, and if you're going to be working for a PhD, you need to work on your analytic skills.

And if someone were not held accountable if they have never heard the word of God, wouldn't the best way to get everyone into heaven be to burn all religious texts and never speak of God again? If you've never heard of God, you're not accountable. Hey, this is a good idea: Salvation through Atheism!
You are pretty good at bending things I will give you that. But my point is from the time that Adam and Eve started reproducing to now there are places that didnt get a chance to hear the word or hear of God. But unfortunatley for Atheism its already been started and there are lots of Christians around :(
I bend nothing, just point out the logical consequences of what you say. I'm not serious though; I was using a technique called "humor" which I've only just discovered, so I'm not that good at it yet.

Rhinoq

[Tib]

So far Rhino your my fav! Maybe it was the way I read his statement and hey I havent even started my college classes yet so bare with me this is good practice. In reference to the indians If I understand you correctly you are asking what gives us the right to say our God is better than yours?

And in my opinion *which is far from expert* faith is faith really to me the issue is the "My God is THE God all others are false" There is a way to share your faith with others alot of christians do it totally wrong.

[TheSnake]

And if someone were not held accountable if they have never heard the word of God, wouldn't the best way to get everyone into heaven be to burn all religious texts and never speak of God again? If you've never heard of God, you're not accountable. Hey, this is a good idea: Salvation through Atheism!
You are pretty good at bending things I will give you that. But my point is from the time that Adam and Eve started reproducing to now there are places that didnt get a chance to hear the word or hear of God. But unfortunatley for Atheism its already been started and there are lots of Christians around :(
I bend nothing, just point out the logical consequences of what you say. I'm not serious though; I was using a technique called "humor" which I've only just discovered, so I'm not that good at it yet.
I'm with Rhinoq here. This is for me one of the big questions that Christianity had failed to properly address. Would God send people to hell for not knowing that they should worship Him? If not, wouldn't people be better off not knowing?

[TheSnake]

Why do you need to believe in something that isn't knowable? Why is it necessary to take sides? And why do you think that "I don't know" is a way to not get involved? Surely one can try to seek knowledge when one doesn't have it, that's what science is all about. Scientists are the ones to first admit how little they actually know.
I agree with you on some of that, but why cant you believe in something you cant explain? There are things that you cant explain but you believe they are possibly true I am sure so whats the difference. Dont get me wrong I understand your point I am just offering a different view. As for "I dont know" I meant that in the sense of I thought you were saying you are not getting involved just bad interpretation on my part.
I've got nothing against believing in things without explanation, as long as it's factual. What I object to is believing in things that can't be directly observed and don't have an explanation, ie. things that are not knowable, wether simply due to lack of information or actually being beyond our capacity to observe. The reason for this is, that there isn't any way to know if such a belief is correct, for all we know, the exact opposite could be true. There's no basis for making rational decisions based on such beliefs, so it's useless and potentially harmful to believe in such things.

[Little Earth Stamper]

Theory is important to me, because it is how I came to my atheisticness. Essentially, all religions are hypotheses; attmpts to explain the why of the world.

The problem is, as I have explored traditional religions I have discovered that they don't explain all the available evidence. For example, Christianity doesn't have a good explanation of why religion arose in the Americas, or why Christ didn't go to the Americas.

So I ask myself if there are theories that would account for this anomolous evidence. One theory that does account for this is atheism.

So there you go.
America was founded by men that were Christians, you can trace that back to england and from there it goes on and on so I am not sure I understand your point or question its pretty simple to see how this religion came to America. Christ for one only had 3 years to walk the earth in that time the most important place he could have dealt with because of the views and corruption was there with the pharisees I believe he did the most important work he had to do in the time given he did say "there are other sheep that need to be attended" which is why Paul and those started the early church and started preaching to other countries. If someone dies without hearing the word of God they are not held accountable by God.
You know, people lived here in America before Columbus wandered over here. They're called Native Americans, and you may remember them as the guys who wore all the feathers in old John Wayne movies.

Now, your god forgot to tell them about Judaism, allowed them to hallucinate a false religion, and his idea of attending to these particular sheep was to send destructive, plague-ridden conquerors to their country to destroy their societies.

Adding further insult to injury, the excuse for destroying theses societies was that they weren't Christian. Spanish conquerors couldn't read Mayan books, so they just burned them all because they looked pagan.

Anyway, why was it so important for Jesus to be here for such a short time? Why not leave him here long enough to minister to everybody? Why not put his sacrifice on a huge TV in the sky so the Indians would know about it? Why not send multiple Jesuses to Earth?

EDIT: At the very least, couldn't god have givien the Aborigines immunity to smallpox? I mean really, that was just adding insult to injury. And injury to injury for that matter.

[Philboid Studge]

What I object to is believing in things that can't be directly observed and don't have an explanation, ie. things that are not knowable, wether simply due to lack of information or actually being beyond our capacity to observe.
Snake, I'm going to bring this up in the 'Creationism ... Predictions' thread (later).

[Tenspace]

great replys and I am reading your links and stuff, as I thought there are alot of you out there but hey how else am I suppose to get information?

I guess my main point here is really simple..
Science thrives on knowledge and explaining the unexplainble and I do love science and space and all those things and I have read my fair share of theory and the like so I'm not coming from left field here. But the basics are Science is here to explain and fix or find solution its how we get what we get. But in all of that, even with the advances we have made lets look at the big picture here. If you are Atheist you believe that there is no God, so essentially you rely on science to explain how the earth, the universe and all the stuff inbetween got here. So what was before , what is space expanding into??? See my point is we can only explain so much how can you reasonably say there is no God?? That takes faith on its own. You pursue Science and the like to get closer to the truth, but looking at everything... space is expanding into nothing faster than light, galaxies in the millions each galaxy the size of ours or bigger now we are finding black holes in the center of each galaxy. The complexity of the human body, etc, etc. Did this just all happen in your opinion out of nothing?
The point is simple, but the argument is very complex. First, the expansion of space: please take some time to pursue two paths of knowledge - first, search this forum for terms like space, time, spacetime, universe, expansion, etc. Read what we've already said on this topic. Second, get yourself a layman's conceptual understanding of spacetime physics. If you had that, you could answer your quest, "What is space expanding into?"

Believing in a God or creator doesnt sound so silly when you look at the big picture, sure you can use the ole God kills people hes a big meany and what about the crusades and the inquisition and Israelites killing all those people argument, but that is just a easy excuse kinda like my 10% thing. Let me try to explain my views about my belief and reply to those statements.
This is, I think, why theists have such a hard time understanding the atheist perspective. We don't anthropomorphize God. I don't consider God a him, her, or it. God didn't kill people, he's not a meany, he didn't talk to Moses through a burning bush... because he is a concept, an explanation, a protagonist from ancient religious prose. Concepts only do those bad things (and good) at the hands of its followers. It's the concept of God that is distorted by Christians, Muslims, Jews, and non-believers to their own personal worldview.

"What kind of God would let this happen"
Common saying, but what kind of God would not? I mean if we lived in a perfect life with no conflict no strife nothing to test us and try us would we still be living in a garden we would be no better we would be no stronger.
Why don't we already live a perfect life? Why do we have to suffer? Why be tested if our eternity is paradise? If God created man, why couldn't he have given us a happier, healthier existence? Why must we be stronger? Stronger than what? Another of God's creations? Why did he have to create something against which we have to be stronger? Why couldn't we be born fully developed, or at least with an acquired intelligence? Why do children have to rely on their parents for so long? What is truly God's plan for the miscarried, the dead at birth, and the mortality of children in general? Why do children have to suffer? I could go on, but I think you get my point. Can God be pleasured? I wonder if he finds pleasure in pain and suffering, or in the triumph over adversity? If he has to abide by rules that require him to test us and try to make us stronger, then who does he report to? Who is God's boss?

What kind of God would force his will onto his followers? Instead he gives choices, sometimes we like to think a little too much about things and we think our way right into a coma.
That's silly, and a bit arrogant. You make it sound like thinking is bad. Of course, we suffer throughout our corporeal existence because the first humans ate from the Tree of Knowledge. The bible's biggest fault are attempts like these to subvert individuality in thought. (And as a caretaker for someone who has survived a coma, I can assure you it is quite impossible to think yourself there.)

People are going to die, and alot of horrible things happen, mostly because of human evil
Ah! The programmer in me looks at this logic tree and can easily blame God... 1. God created Man "in his own image" 2. God created the universe and everything in it. 3. Therefore God created evil, and created man with the ability to perform evil acts. 4. God is wholly responsible for the evils inflicted upon the world by humans.

you cant blame it on God if you dont believe in him for one, and two if you do its an easy cop out.
I don't believe in him, because of logical fallacies like the one above. When I used to believe in him, I found I could never blame him because of his perfection. Again, a logical fallacy.

Christians are people and people are just naturally evil thats why I for one do not believe in religion I think its a man made way to limit God
Evolution does a much better job at explaining "evil" than the bible. Just look at all the unbridled evil in the animal world... fratricide, murder, rape. We. are. no. different. Tib, it would seem to me that you strongly believe in religion, that of Christianity. You may not follow organized religion, but you are very religious nonetheless.

, Jesus was never about religion in fact he spoke against it on a few occasions.
Jesus is the central figure of one of the largest religions in the world. Care to explain how he's "never about religion"?

I dont hate Homosexuals, in my belief they are just as wrong as those cheating or having pre-marital sex which I myself did so I cant judge I can try to help out of "LOVE".
Hate isn't the issue. Judgement of the peaceful lifestyles of people different than you... wait, isn't that against the word of God? Judge not and all that? :)

In the south they have a huge problem they say its wrong to drink an alcoholic beverage then after church will go eat all kinds of bad food when they themselves are 200lbs overweight so you see my point here you cant judge God based on what humans do.
But you just did judge homosexuals and the billions of humans throughout time who engaged in premarital sex. You said they were wrong. That's a judgement - if it's God's, and you follow it, that makes you religious. If it is your own personal judgement, how do you reconcile with yourself?

God is perfect, he is Truth and Love its us humans that screw everything up.
If that's the case, then God also gave us humans the ability to screw everything up, and in addition, he has never intervened since the times of the ancients. Causal outcomes, by the way, can't be attributed to God's intervention, since he didn't produce an obvious miracle at the same time, like the bible describes over and over.

I could go on and on about this as you can tell but there are alot of problems out there that people cause in the name of "Christianity" and it makes people think that its Gods fault. I really dont want to get into a religous conversation in this thread but I used that just to prove a point just like what was said to me. Dont use that "God let it happen" excuse if you dont really understand what you are saying especially if you dont believe in him.
In whole there are alot of things you cant explain alot of complex things did they just poof happen out of nowhere? If so that is faith.
Your lack of comprehension of the level of knowledge that humans have attained is becoming glaringly obvious. Please, please pick up some popular science books like Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality", or Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace." David Lindley's, "Where Does All The Weirdness Go" is a great primer on quantum physics. Check out Steven Pinker or VS Ramachandran for up-to-date info on the neurosciences. For genetics, Matt Ridley's "Genome", and "The Agile Gene" are great reads.

If you search on this forum, you'll find a repository of favorite books of many of our contributors. Check it out.

And if you dont understand the Bible and God then dont throw the common arguments out and I will try not to with my points about evolution and faith :)
Keep in mind that many of us used to be religious. I was a devout Jew for thirty-eight years. I've been an atheist for seven. Your points about evolution and faith are welcome. But please, first gain a decent understanding of evolution, because so many of the topics brought up on faith turn out to have been answered by study and experiment. Like the 10% brain comment earlier, research before posting and it'll save all of us a lot of typing. :)

Tenspace

[Tib]

you could call this my research and I am finding alot of information just from what you guys are typing. Some things I am typing are being taken out of context but I dont have time to explain everything I say. If I dont agree with something or a specific lifestyle it doesnt mean I am judging even if its wrong by what I believe according to my belief we all do "wrong" but its forgiveness that enables to keep going you all know this if you were christians or the like so I am only preaching to the choir so to speak. I am seeing things differently just from the few posts I have had and read here one thing is for sure the power of Faith goes alot deeper than just believing. You all make very good points btw :)

[schemanista]

... I do love science and space and all those things and I have read my fair share of theory and the like so I'm not coming from left field here. ...
Everything you've posted to support your "arguments" comes from right, not left-field.

But the basics are Science is here to explain and fix or find solution its how we get what we get. But in all of that, even with the advances we have made lets look at the big picture here. If you are Atheist you believe that there is no God, so essentially you rely on science to explain how the earth, the universe and all the stuff inbetween got here. So what was before , what is space expanding into??? See my point is we can only explain so much how can you reasonably say there is no God??That takes faith on its own. You pursue Science and the like to get closer to the truth, but looking at everything... space is expanding into nothing faster than light, galaxies in the millions each galaxy the size of ours or bigger now we are finding black holes in the center of each galaxy. The complexity of the human body, etc, etc. Did this just all happen in your opinion out of nothing?
You might want to familiarize yourself with logical fallacies. I suggest you start with begging the question (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html).

In whole there are alot of things you cant explain alot of complex things did they just poof happen out of nowhere? If so that is faith.
And if you dont understand the Bible and God then dont throw the common arguments out and I will try not to with my points about evolution and faith :)
See, you're doing it again.

[schemanista]

If I dont agree with something or a specific lifestyle it doesnt mean I am judging even if its wrong
How do you know it's "wrong" if you didn't pass judgement on it in the first place?

Could you start by using words in accordance with their commonly-accepted meanings (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/judgement)? Or make a concerted effort to demonstrate contextually that you are using a word in different sense from what most people would expect?

[Tib]

I would like some of you guys to read or check out a book called "Battle for the Beggining" its written about evolution vs creation science or christian belief in creation. He brings up alot of good points and such, I would just like an opinion from the other side.

[Mog]

This is why I love google. Following your thread, I decide to google "battle for the beginning" an I found such a review of the book from the side of a physicist:

http://www.dctech.com/physics/features/1002.php

[Rhinoqulous]

I would like some of you guys to read or check out a book called "Battle for the Beggining" its written about evolution vs creation science or christian belief in creation. He brings up alot of good points and such, I would just like an opinion from the other side.
You can read a review of the book here (http://www.dctech.com/physics/features/1002.php). John MacArthur, like many YEC's, is not a scientist, and presents everything from confused to downright wrong explanations of scientific principles (which is the only way I know of to reconcile science with YEC). Yeah, I think I'll pass on reading this one (I’m hung up on reading books with those watcha call ‘em, uhhhm, facts).

Rhinoq

[Rhinoqulous]

This is why I love google. Following your thread, I decide to google "battle for the beginning" an I found such a review of the book from the side of a physicist:

http://www.dctech.com/physics/features/1002.php
beat me to the post! damn you mog! DAAAAAAAMMMMMNNNNNN YOOOOOOUUUUUUU!!!

(But the Screaming Blue Ants still love you)

[Mog]

(But the Screaming Blue Ants still love you)
What about the rest of the trinity: the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Invisible Pink Unicorn? They still love me too, right? :-)

[Tib]

Ok I found a link here I want some of you to look at as well. I know you have heard of creation science. www.creationscience.com

[Rhinoqulous]

(But the Screaming Blue Ants still love you)
What about the rest of the trinity: the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Invisible Pink Unicorn? They still love me too, right? :-)
How does this Trinity work? The Flying Spaghetti Monster as prime mover, but was lazy and didn't finish the job. So the Screaming Blue Ants have to come along and force delusions and hallucinations on people so we don't see all the shoddy workmanship in the construction of the universe. Then, after the bong-water's gone stale and all the mushroom tea has been drunk, the Invisible Pink Unicorn kicks out the support beams of the universe with his Hooves of Justice, so they (the Trinity) can collect on the insurance policies they took out on all the life-forms in the universe. Then they retire to a "resort" universe, where thousand breasted hookers fellate them with toothless gums for all eternity. Hey, this religion doesn't sound half bad, kind of like Hinduism meets mescaline meets Valley-Con '97, where this fat kid dressed like Conan the Barbarian totally felt up this drunk chick in the party room. I've lost track of what I'm talking about. So yes, it's obvious that the True Trinity Loves you, or at least the quarter-mil policy they have on you.

[whoneedscience]

Yes! We must spread the Good News of the Screaming Blue Ants to our new theist friend! He's completely ignorant of science, and has proven himself moldable, and he seems to going into academia. Finally, the world could come to know the Love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

[Philboid Studge]

Rhinoq, What do you mean, 'force delusions and hallucinations on people'?

(They had me at 'hello'!)

[Tib]

Hey I wouldnt say I am completely ignorant of science....you do give alot of information which is good, even if its biased :p

[Philboid Studge]

Then, after the bong-water's gone stale and all the mushroom tea has been drunk ...
I always cry at this part ...

[abortionman]

i'll say it...i don't post much anyway

Tib is an idiot

[Tib]

I can see why you dont post much.

[schemanista]

Hey I wouldnt say I am completely ignorant of science....
I would.

[Reverend Blasphemy]

Everyone doggin' on Tib: don't be drinkin' that hater-ade! This may be our only shot to convert him to the dark side of faithlessness. Shoot, did I post that out loud...

[Reverend Blasphemy]

You've posted quite a few links and books Tib, and I appreciate the material you're bringing to the table. Might I suggest that you check out a couple of books: "Asking About Life" by Tobin and Dusheck. This is an entry level biology textbook that I used for my basic biological concepts class. It's a very easy read, and quite informative. Also, "Principles of Genetics" by Robert Tamarin, and "Evolutionary Analysis" by Freeman and Herron. Also, for a scintillating evening by the fire, I highly recommend "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins.

[ghoulslime]

I find it funny that us human beings using only 10% of our brains...
we human beings (nominative case pronoun) Please use 11% of your brain and get your goddamn grammar right! :D

(I'm just picking on you) ;)

[Tenspace]

Ok I found a link here I want some of you to look at as well. I know you have heard of creation science. www.creationscience.com
How does a PhD in Mechanical Engineering (!) qualify you for PhD-level discussions of biology? Hmm...

[Tenspace]

Hey I wouldnt say I am completely ignorant of science....you do give alot of information which is good, even if its biased :p
At least you're approaching this with a somewhat open mind. You really, really need to read up on brain science. Check out:

UC San Diego Center for Brain and Cognition (http://psy.ucsd.edu/chip/CBC2.html)

Edge (http://www.edge.org/) (sometimes you have to dig for an article that doesn't put you to sleep)

Nova Online - Secrets of the Mind (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/mind/resources.html)

University of Washington - Neuroscience for Kids (http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/neurok.html)

Tenspace

[abortionman]

after you're done with the entry-level texbook
try "Biology" by Campbell & Reece...i think the 6th edition is the newest

it's a...everything biology textbook (covers a good chunk of college bio...so...evolution, molecular bio, organ physiology...and everything i don't remember), if you read it from cover to cover...you'd be an expert
unless you try for the biochemistry textbooks, they're a little more detailed (but i'm guessing since you're christian, you're not suicidal enough to read it)

read chapters 26-30...and 32-34
trust me...you'll change your mind

[Rhinoqulous]

Well, I guess I killed this thread. Hail to the Screaming Blue Ants!

[Tib]

stupid ants....funny story though :)

[miata]

Tib,
Perhaps we use more than 10% of our brains. People often waste the part they can use by living in the Middle Ages. Have you ever met a talking snake?