View Full Version : US Constitution
Bighead
08-25-2005, 10:46 AM
I'm having a debate right now with a colleague about the US Constitution (sorry, he's a right-wing nut job) and he says that the Constitution was written with christianity as a moral backdrop. Any thoughts?
US Constitution: Based on Christianity or not? Written within a xtian context or not?
RedRob
08-25-2005, 10:59 AM
Definitly not for both. Here (http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm) is the site with reasons why since I'm feeling lazy today. :D
GodlessHeathen
08-25-2005, 11:04 AM
There is no mention of Jesus Christ, or God at all in the Constitution. And, the only mention of religion is to restrict its power in the First Amendment. The important Founding Fathers weren't even Christian. Besides, doesn't it make sense that if they had wanted the US to be based on Christian principles, they would have put it in the Constitution?
Bighead
08-25-2005, 11:21 AM
I can't see where the first amendment actually restricts religion in government. It specifically says that the government may not establish a religion or create any laws respecting religion, but it doesn't say that it can't have anything to do with religion whatsoever. I wish it did, but I can't see how that could be interpretted that way. But then again, I don't know how the Supreme Court came to all of its conclusions using past rulings etc...and I care little to read into all of the past cases involving religion and government...I just don't have time for that.
I guess my response would be threefold. First, the Constitution is primarily a mercantile document, not a moral code. Its foremost intent was to provide a federal structure to for the most part prevent the states from choking each other to death with tariffs, and I would suspect many scholars might argue that the most powerful section of the Constitution is Congress's right to regulate interstate commerce. The attempts to legislate morality in the early United States were found in state laws, not federal ones. And most state laws were derived from English common law, which had developed over the centuries, having little to actually do with any Biblical exhortations.
Second, even if it were true, who gives a damn whether the Constitution was written with Christianity as a moral backdrop? I mean, the Constitution was also written with white male supremacy as a backdrop. Or maybe that's your colleague's point?
Third, what exactly is that "moral backdrop"? I mean, can it be defined? And if Christianity has itself changed its moral backdrop over the centuries (rather easily demonstrated), then what exactly is the "backdrop" and what possible use can it have?
Red Mage
08-25-2005, 01:54 PM
What I don't understand is how a document can have a "moral backdrop" in the first place.
The Constitution is secular. 'Jesus', 'God', and/or 'Christianity' do not appear anywhere within. If the Constitution were at all based on Christian principles, these would be a sure sign.
Besides which, hopefully most of us remember Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli (1797).
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Now I know he's probably going to toss the Ten Commandments in there somewhere, but again, American law and/or the Constitution is not based on them. According to the FFRF (ffrf.org, specifically):
The first four Commandments are religious edicts having nothing to do with law or ethical behavior. Only three (homicide, theft, and perjury) are relevant to current American law, and have existed in cultures long before Moses. If Americans honored the commandment against "coveting," free enterprise would collapse!
I have to learn to stop quick posting...
Atheist@Umich
08-25-2005, 02:44 PM
The Constitution is secular. 'Jesus', 'God', and/or 'Christianity' do not appear anywhere within. If the Constitution were at all based on Christian principles, these would be a sure sign.
Well, it does say "In the Year of Our Lord" in the Preamble... so, technically, it mentions Jesus, but that's just the convention for naming Dates.
I can't see where the first amendment actually restricts religion in government. It specifically says that the government may not establish a religion or create any laws respecting religion, but it doesn't say that it can't have anything to do with religion whatsoever. I wish it did, but I can't see how that could be interpretted that way. But then again, I don't know how the Supreme Court came to all of its conclusions using past rulings etc...and I care little to read into all of the past cases involving religion and government...I just don't have time for that.
Well... the government is not supposed to disrespect any religion. They don't want any church to have more official recognition than any other. So, I think it does restrict religion in government because religion really shouldn't be involved in government to be fair to all the other religions. A lot of people in this country assume differently... they think that since Judeo-Christians are in the majority, its ok as long as they respect all Christian and Jewish denominations equally.
I think the whole point of the Bill of Rights, though, is to protect the minorities. Yes, we do have Hindu's and pagans and atheists in this country. Where's our respect?
ocmpoma
08-26-2005, 05:33 AM
The way I usually parry this argument is to say, "So what?" (Although I agree that Christianity was not the "framework", "foundation", "backdrop", or whatever of the Constitution, except in the fact that it was part and parcel of US culture - like the English language.)
So what? Personally, I don't give two wet shits what a bunch of 18th century landowning white slave-owning or slavery-condoning men 'intended'. The founding fathers 'intended' for slavery to gradually wither away. The founding fathers 'intended' that only landowning white males could vote or hold office. The founding fathers 'intended' to expand westward over the continent, previous residents be damned. What a bunch of lawyers and politicians as nuances of government 200 years ago is of little concern to me - can anyone think of a viable goverment that is functioning unchanged from the way it was in 1805?
The greatest strength of the Constitution (especially as far as survivability is concerned) is that it can be changed - as it has been, quite a bit. One can point out how flawed the Christotution idea is (just do a search for "Treaty of Tripoli"), but in the end, it doesn't matter if it was explicity founded on Christianity - what we need is a government for today, not for the tail end of the 18th century.
Now, if only I could figure out which colleague it was you were 'discussing' this issue with...
Bighead
08-26-2005, 06:52 AM
I'll give you one guess.
GodlessHeathen
08-26-2005, 07:08 AM
You guys know each other?
Bighead
08-26-2005, 07:11 AM
No of course not
RedRob
08-26-2005, 07:32 AM
Well, it does say "In the Year of Our Lord" in the Preamble... so, technically, it mentions Jesus, but that's just the convention for naming Dates.
Yes, and if the Christians want to use that as an argument then the pagans can technically say that it was based on their beliefs since the US Constitution mentions some of their gods by name rather then with the not so specific "Our Lord". Pagan gods Janus god of gateways/beginnings (January), Februus god of purification (February), etc...:D
Cap'n Awesome
08-26-2005, 08:24 AM
I think there is a little bit of christian morality in the constitution, but let me make it very clear, that does not make us a Christian country. It's far far more influenced by Solon's original Athenian constitution, but nobody is claiming we are a greek country.
Philboid Studge
08-26-2005, 08:27 AM
...but nobody is claiming we are a greek country.
Maybe not, but Log Cabin Republicans are promoting the Greekification of the US.
RedRob
08-26-2005, 08:45 AM
I think there is a little bit of christian morality in the constitution, but let me make it very clear, that does not make us a Christian country. It's far far more influenced by Solon's original Athenian constitution, but nobody is claiming we are a greek country.
Let me start this by saying I'm not trying to argue with you but can you please explain how it is based on Christian morality? I just don't understand where that argument holds water since the only explanation I've heard was “well they were Christians”. Thanks and try not to get offended this time. :D
HeWhoAsks
08-26-2005, 06:09 PM
The more fundamental questions are
what exactly does a "backdrop" mean;
are there other things besides Christianity that would be part of the backdrop (the Enlightenment, rationality, freedom of conscience, etc.);
what proportion and signficiance does every part of the backdrop hold within the consititution (is God mentioned?), and why;
etc.
It's going to be a very long journey from hypothesizing a Christian backdrop and any specific proposal or approach to the constitution today.
Cap'n Awesome
08-29-2005, 09:48 AM
I think there is a little bit of christian morality in the constitution, but let me make it very clear, that does not make us a Christian country. It's far far more influenced by Solon's original Athenian constitution, but nobody is claiming we are a greek country.
Let me start this by saying I'm not trying to argue with you but can you please explain how it is based on Christian morality? I just don't understand where that argument holds water since the only explanation I've heard was “well they were Christians”. Thanks and try not to get offended this time. :D
Not offended at all. Like I said, the Greeks (and also the Romans) far far more influenced our constitution then Christianity, but I think there may be a little Christian morality mixed in with the parts about the paying of ones Debts, Treason, The Supreme court and lesser court systems may have been based on old Judea courts. It may not have been too. Just remember, there's alot of stuff in the constitution (http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html) and alot of stuff in old Christian and Jewish culture, and alot of moral teachings in the bible. The founding fathers were mostly very well educated in history, so it's hard to say what articles come from what influences. But like I said Solon (http://www.e-classics.com/solon.htm) influenced it far far more then even the fudenmentalist christian can rationally claim as a link between the constitution and the bible.
Cap'n Awesome
08-29-2005, 09:51 AM
The more fundamental questions are
what exactly does a "backdrop" mean;
are there other things besides Christianity that would be part of the backdrop (the Enlightenment, rationality, freedom of conscience, etc.);
what proportion and signficiance does every part of the backdrop hold within the consititution (is God mentioned?), and why;
etc.
It's going to be a very long journey from hypothesizing a Christian backdrop and any specific proposal or approach to the constitution today.
Yep, there is no mention of god in the constitution, in fact there isn't so much as an 'under god' or such like the Declaration of Independance, at most a Christian backdrop is merely one of the many many backdrops for the constitution, and it's certainly no justification for calling the US a Christian country. Everyone should read it themselves and make up thier own minds.
Metman07
08-29-2005, 09:50 PM
If the Founding Fathers wanted this country to be a Christian state, they would have been very explicit about it. What these people are saying is that the Founding Fathers wanted the United States to be a Christian nation, except for some reason they forgot to make any mention of the Christian God/Jesus or the Bible anywhere in the body of the text. Yes, in dating the document they used the term "the year of our Lord", but as explained in the article and by some in the thread, that was just a naming convention. When I say that this is the year 2005, it is understood that I mean 2005 AD...that doesn't mean that this post is a Christian document.
This is very similar to how some Christians try to torque the Bible to make it fit with findings that contradict the Bible.
nmpoe
08-31-2005, 07:37 PM
This concept "Christian State" "Christian State" "Christian Founding Fathers" keeps surfacing over and over.
There has to be a wacko conservative website out there claiming it.
So ask for some documentation on the facts.
Or the web site.
GodlessHeathen
08-31-2005, 09:38 PM
This concept "Christian State" "Christian State" "Christian Founding Fathers" keeps surfacing over and over.
There has to be a wacko conservative website out there claiming it.
So ask for some documentation on the facts.
Or the web site.
Dude, there are tons. Find one of the mined quotes these guys give, and google it. You'll come up with hundreds of hits from these Christian websites.
Paradox
09-01-2005, 06:34 AM
There are countless websites, books and organizations dedicated to spreading the claim that America is a christian nation. A great deal of the misinformation spread by these people originated from a guy called David Barton, who runs the group WallBuilders (http://www.wallbuilders.com/) and is also overseeing the writing of history and government standards for public school students in states such as Texas, California, Kentucky, and several others. More info and critical analysis on Barton can be gotten from here (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Barton), here (http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9606/barton.html) and here (http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bartidx.htm).
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