Does Satan exist ergo God must exist?

[dtd367]

Hello everyone. New here to the forum so a little background info before I get to the main question. I've been an atheist for two years now. The ten years prior I was agnostic. The eighteen or so years before that I was raised in a fundamentalist First Assemblies of God curch and of course it was there I was taught about Satan and evil in general. Afterall, Satan plays an integral role in the Christian faith and the properties attributed to him, I would say, are the same with God, just opposite, of course. I heard he can assume any shape or form, can possess inanimate objects, and says a lot of shit backwards on old vinyl records. A home or a person could be possessed by inviting Satan in or by simply having a lack of faith. Satan can also suspend the laws of physics, to achieve whatever his nasty little plan is, what could only be defined as a miracle. Now I've read a deconversion story or two where the skeptic would ask God for a simple sign such as to make water fall up instead of down when poured from a cup. When said skeptic tipped the cup, the water poured down as always and thus a first step into a new direction. In every deconversion story I've read so far, the skeptic would always direct his inqueries towards God and his abilities. Have yet to read one where the skeptic questions the Satan concept and concludes there is no God. Anyway, I don't know how to phrase the question but it's directed towards atheists. I'm sure most here took the rational, well thought out arguments towards their atheism so my question is this. Did anyone conduct a simple test like inviting Satan to possess them or selling him their soul as the first step towards their atheism?

[Red Mage]

Once I learned about Satan, I figured out pretty quickly that he probably wasn't as powerful as the religion says he is. People are driven by their own conviction. I was a pretty strong Catholic, but I wasn't THAT delusional to the point of assigning anything that didn't look morally right to a temporary demonic influence/possession.

I figured "selling my soul to Satan" would be a good way to get back at God for letting my life be so fucked up, but I was just angry. So I guess I kind of agree with the little skeptic test.

My deconversion, however, was a long process and didn't really involve Satan all that much. I've always known that Satan was a crock of shit.

[Another brick in the wall]

It seems to me if Satan was real, he would be trying very hard to befriend atheists/nonchristians- like in the movies where people say "I'd sell my soul for a Ferrari," and Satan pops in with a contract.

[Atheist@Umich]

Satan was one of the concepts that convinced me God wasn't all powerful. If Satan did all this crap, did God just not want to stop him, or was he not powerful enough to stop him?

And even if Satan is technically considered a fallen angel, since a lot of Christians seem to point out what Satan does to people almost as much as what God does, I felt as if Satan were just an evil god. So.. so much for monotheism, right?

[Another brick in the wall]

It's not just that. Why would an all-knowing god create a being he knows is going to screw up his plans? If god is all powerful, he could destroy Satan with single thought.

[oliverwxyz]

It seems to me if Satan was real, he would be trying very hard to befriend atheists/nonchristians- like in the movies where people say "I'd sell my soul for a Ferrari," and Satan pops in with a contract.
Presmuably Satan believes in God.. or would do if he existed!

Satan is a very confusing concept indeed. Without waffling on I understand he has very little role in the OT at all and God describes himSELF as creating everything good and evil at one point (apart from all the bits where men are blamed for sin and disobedience, or the bit where the serpent shares the blame - certainly not meant as a metaphor for Satan (or Satan in disguise) when it was originally written. Satan seems to have really taken off as a kind of anti-God in Christian times perhaps partly to explain how a perfectly good God allows evil to run rampant in the world. Still it seems to me very unclear which bits of evil are supposedly caused by Satan (or his minions - wonder how he chooses the things to get involved with personally?) and which by man's own fault and which things that seem evil to us are actually done by God as part of his mysterious plan... If God is omnipotent of course then presumably he could stop Satan's efforts at any time, but doesn't because he wants us to be put to the test and have to prove how holy we are? Would it be just too easy to get to Heaven otherwise??

I wouldn't be surprised if Satan took off as a concept based on Zoroastrianism, with its powerful good God and almost-as-powerful-but-not-quite evil God.

Like in the CHrsitian stories about the apocalypse I understand Zoroastrrianism teaches of a kind of war or good against evil ending up with judgement and punishment for both sinful humans and the evil God. The theory is that God is letting Satan amuse himself with us for now, but he knows he's going to kick his ass eventually.


Oliver

[calpurnpiso]

Satan is not a confusing concept at all. Over 5000 years ago, "satan" was seen simply as CHAOS, or any disorganizing force. Hell was simply viewed by the Egyptians, and many other ancient religions as simply NON EXISTENCE, or no memory of the self by others!. The reason that people were mumified and their images displayed everywere, including mud figurines. To send someone to hell or the "devil/chaos" one would simply defaced their images and try to erase their memory from history.

This happen to the creator, IMHO, of the Abrahamic-psychosis ( judaism, Christianity and Islam), the heretic pharoah Akhenaton who with his worship of the SUN, would start the transformation of our life giving star into Jaoweh, Christ and Allah. The pagan divinities of Zeuss, Apollo, Dyonisus, Priapus/Min, Osiris, Amun-Ra, Atun, Bacchus, Mythras, Mitra, Sol Invictus, Attis et al....would also be images of the SUN. We must also realize that the ABSENCE of the light of the sun INITIATED the invention of 'satan".

Since the only BRIGHT star left in the sky, while the SUN was absent from the firmanent, was VENUS, this "Bearer of Light" (Lucem Ferram), a competitor to GOD/SUN/JESUS/JAOWEH/ALLAH, became known to the Christ-psychotics as LUCIFER... Since the bad guy that loved chaos in ancient Egyptian mythology is the brother of the sun-god Osiris, SET, the name evolved into SATAN in those infected by Christ-psychosis in the 4th Century.......Christians are the most ignorant people on the planet, regardless of how many PHDs they have! (i,e Condolezza Rice, Graham, Frist, Chenney, Robertson, Santorum, etc), must be that awful mental illness that disturbs their logic centers, Christ-psychosis.............:)

[Another brick in the wall]

Cal, I'll make a bet you have at least eight cups of coffee per day.

[Rhinoqulous]

Welcome to our fair forums, dtd367.

I was forced to attend a church twice a week similar to the AoG until I was 18. They preached some fucked up shit about Satan. Our youth minister would play these anti-rock videos where you supposedly heard evil messages backwards (my favorite was Queen's Another One Bites the Dust is saying "Start Smoking Marijuana" when played backwards. Of course, by that time the Screaming Blue Ants had their pincers in me, so my youth minister couldn't understand why I couldn’t' stop laughing when she showed that).

We were also taught that evolution was a satanic conspiracy. All fossil evidence was "planted"; those evil scientists would go out and bury horse, monkey, and human bones together, and then dig 'em up in a few years and claim a new "link" in human evolution was discovered. The dinosaurs were done the same way. Ahh, memories.

Rhinoq

[Tenspace]

Was it Mark Twain that pondered why no one prayed for Satan? Hmm.... here it is:

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? "

Ten

[calpurnpiso]

Cal, I'll make a bet you have at least eight cups of coffee per day.
No, only three, but it is Colombian coffee..AHHH..the aroma, scintillanting taste and neuron stimulating properties with enhancing dopamine. Those cups and a good libidinal pacifier companion will send me to "heaven".......Unglaubich. :)

[calpurnpiso]

Welcome to our fair forums, dtd367.

I was forced to attend a church twice a week similar to the AoG until I was 18. They preached some fucked up shit about Satan. Our youth minister would play these anti-rock videos where you supposedly heard evil messages backwards (my favorite was Queen's Another One Bites the Dust is saying "Start Smoking Marijuana" when played backwards. Of course, by that time the Screaming Blue Ants had their pincers in me, so my youth minister couldn't understand why I couldn’t' stop laughing when she showed that).

We were also taught that evolution was a satanic conspiracy. All fossil evidence was "planted"; those evil scientists would go out and bury horse, monkey, and human bones together, and then dig 'em up in a few years and claim a new "link" in human evolution was discovered. The dinosaurs were done the same way. Ahh, memories.

Rhinoq
Well, this is the difference between a healthy brain (yours) and that of the others. You could differentiate between myths and reality, the others would follow the teachings of the Christ-psychosis infected teacher and immerse their defective brains in those irrational delusions which would trigger dopamine. ( God-euphoria). One must realize over 80% of Americans are infected!. Thanks for the story. I was not as alert and questioning as you when I was 18. I attended back in the 50's in a Christ-psychosis infected country, Colombia, a very rigid all male high school, runned by the Christian Nazi Emulators of all time, The La Salle Christian Brothers!. The brainwashing was excellent and so it was the education! Mandatory latin, French, English. MAss on Sunday and confession was de rigeur!....The fear and guilt, were exquisitively balance to make mental slaves out of all of us. Not many survive this mental manipulation and molding. Well, the Christian Catholic Church has been doing this for over 1700 years!. If I had decided to join the seminary and further my education at the Vatican, like my embasadour father wanted, I'd be POPE by now....AHHH, the palaces, the food, the servitude, the adoration of the masses, the control over the Christian Fairy tales, my infallibility, the clothes, the tripple tiara, the jewels, the magnificent ceremonies, the lovely, proskinesis ( an act that I would insist on ALL of my young ephebe subjects, but I would say lower, lower my son, lower for the love of jesus....)

Proskinesis is the act ( ancient Persia and other kingdoms) of prostration from a subject to his/her King. The act consist of a person walking towards the king eyes lowered bowing while placing a hand on the mouth. The higher in rank would kiss the robes of the king, the peasants the sandals. The original Christian church adopted this by having the subjects bow and kiss the ring of the bishops. Some would insist in the adoration of Penis-Christ......smart clergy..lol

Hmmm...being pope sure beats being a Jewelry designer and hand engraver....and all of the libido care takers ready to adore,,and adore...and adore....:)

[dtd367]

Welcome to our fair forums, dtd367.

I was forced to attend a church twice a week similar to the AoG until I was 18. They preached some fucked up shit about Satan. Our youth minister would play these anti-rock videos where you supposedly heard evil messages backwards (my favorite was Queen's Another One Bites the Dust is saying "Start Smoking Marijuana" when played backwards. Of course, by that time the Screaming Blue Ants had their pincers in me, so my youth minister couldn't understand why I couldn’t' stop laughing when she showed that).

We were also taught that evolution was a satanic conspiracy. All fossil evidence was "planted"; those evil scientists would go out and bury horse, monkey, and human bones together, and then dig 'em up in a few years and claim a new "link" in human evolution was discovered. The dinosaurs were done the same way. Ahh, memories.

Rhinoq
Thanks for having me. My uncle is still a jeebus freak. I remember one time my freshman year of high school he made me, my two siblings, and his three kids watch a so called "news report" on rock music and the subliminal messages contained therein. "Another One Bites the Dust" was mentioned and I snickered when I heard it played backwards. It was really a stretch to make the words out. I remember thinking to myself, "What is marijuana and why do I have the urge to try it now?" All the other times I heard that song prior I thought nothing of it. It still conjures up images of professional wrestler The Junkyard Dog.

I was also told evolution was a tool of the devil. I bought it for a while but I also remember coming to the realization that we share so many features in common with primates. Anyway, I think that's for another thread. Memories indeed.

[calpurnpiso]

Welcome to our fair forums, dtd367.

I was forced to attend a church twice a week similar to the AoG until I was 18. They preached some fucked up shit about Satan. Our youth minister would play these anti-rock videos where you supposedly heard evil messages backwards (my favorite was Queen's Another One Bites the Dust is saying "Start Smoking Marijuana" when played backwards. Of course, by that time the Screaming Blue Ants had their pincers in me, so my youth minister couldn't understand why I couldn’t' stop laughing when she showed that).

We were also taught that evolution was a satanic conspiracy. All fossil evidence was "planted"; those evil scientists would go out and bury horse, monkey, and human bones together, and then dig 'em up in a few years and claim a new "link" in human evolution was discovered. The dinosaurs were done the same way. Ahh, memories.

Rhinoq
Thanks for having me. My uncle is still a jeebus freak. I remember one time my freshman year of high school he made me, my two siblings, and his three kids watch a so called "news report" on rock music and the subliminal messages contained therein. "Another One Bites the Dust" was mentioned and I snickered when I heard it played backwards. It was really a stretch to make the words out. I remember thinking to myself, "What is marijuana and why do I have the urge to try it now?" All the other times I heard that song prior I thought nothing of it. It still conjures up images of professional wrestler The Junkyard Dog.

I was also told evolution was a tool of the devil. I bought it for a while but I also remember coming to the realization that we share so many features in common with primates. Anyway, I think that's for another thread. Memories indeed.
Welcome to the forum.!

Well, you were lucky due to your healthy brain. But cherish your Christ-psychosis upbringing for now you have experienced the psychosis and now how it feels. Remember the sentence; 'That which doesn't kill me strenghtens me". Knowledge is the key to mental health, happiness and success."...:)

[Godsend]

I speak to the people who have children....when that child is born you love that child don't you? even if that child does somehting wrong, you don't go out back and take an axe to his head do you? same thing applys here....even though we do wrong God still loves his creation. If you bother to remove yourself from that little box in your brain once in a while and do research you'll see there are artifacts and scrolls fround long before cecsar or however you spell his stupid name. There is a place for people like you.....sleep well.

[spike]

I speak to the people who have children....when that child is born you love that child don't you? even if that child does somehting wrong, you don't go out back and take an axe to his head do you? same thing applys here....even though we do wrong God still loves his creation. If you bother to remove yourself from that little box in your brain once in a while and do research you'll see there are artifacts and scrolls fround long before cecsar or however you spell his stupid name. There is a place for people like you.....sleep well.
Exactly what I was thinking:)

[Yesusfriend]

There is a place for people like us.
And there is one for people like you to but will you like it, think about that.
God is whating for You to understand.
Then teach what life is all about.
And how good it can be.
And what comes next.

[Another brick in the wall]

I must respectfully insist that you are wrong. Let's work hard to make this life worthwhile.

[spike]

What makes this life worthwhile?

[Atheist@Umich]

I must respectfully insist that you are wrong. Let's work hard to make this life worthwhile.
RAmen, brick! (FSM lingo :))

What makes this life worthwhile?
Thats up for you to decide by yourself, all of us have our own different personal answers. Unlike theists, we are not told what to think, we think for ourselves.

On a personal level, for me that question has an ever evolving answer. Let me ask you, is the world beautiful to you? Would the world be beautiful if there were no people here to see it? Even if the universe was not created for us, even if we are not in the center of the galaxy, and even if we are a bizzare accident of chemistry and biology, can't you see that we are inherrently special? Our minds are the only clumps of matter that can think and reason, and this is allowed not by divine interactions but by complex, physical, chemical interactions which break no laws of nature. Sentience and intelligence are very important to me, and so far my purpose in life is to propogate life as far away from this little rock as I can get it. Why do that? Because there is so much to see and learn. The universe is only beautiful if something intelligent can see and judge it.

Now, bringing life to the universe really isn't important to the other people here. That's just me. It's not religious at all, but in my opinion, it's what you might call "spiritual," no?

There can be purpose without God. The only trick is that there is no One True purpose for everyone. It's whatever you make of it.

[Atheist@Umich]

ahaha and he can't spell. Seriously, the existence of God could be the topic of the most intellectual discussion in the history of mankind, and yet here's a person who won't even take 30 seconds to look up the spelling of Caesar!

Seriously, have some intellectual integrity. Give references to your arguments, show us that you at least put some thought and research into your opinions before you try to tell us they're right. The atheists here are showing a lot more references with links than theists. Impress us by showing that you truly have given thought to your illogical beliefs. If you haven't, you're wasting our time.

By the way, I don't see how those scrolls in any way prove the existence of God. We've found documents far older than that. Do you worship the Egyptian Gods? Why not?

EDIT: And you still didn't disprove that we were, infact, all created by the great and all-powerful Invisible Pink Unicorn (refers to another post. I'm impatient with waiting :))

[honeybadger]

and what's up with God and Satan making a bet to torture Job in the book of Job? I mean God making bets with Satan is a bit odd, isn't it? the book of Job is pretty scary and sure makes God look like an idiot. if any of you guys haven't it you should.

[Philboid Studge]

and what's up with God and Satan making a bet to torture Job in the book of Job? I mean God making bets with Satan is a bit odd, isn't it? the book of Job is pretty scary and sure makes God look like an idiot. if any of you guys haven't it you should.
I think I'm the Anti-Job in a parallel universe, kind of like Evil Spock with the goatee (or was it a van dyke?). Job's life was ruined and yet he wouldn't curse God, whereas I'm one of the luckiest pricks I know -- blessed, you might say -- and I curse God every day. (The other night I actually shook my fist at the sky. It's true, I'd had a couple shots of tequila. I don't know whether I was amusing or being an asshole.) In my universe Satan wins the bet!

http://ravingatheist.com/forum/img/uploads/evilmrspock.gif

[dtd367]

So no one here has had a personal experience with the devil is what ya'll are saying?