Hi everybody (no offense to energy-based life-forms)

[Marquis de Sade]

I am 20, an Indian (not the red or the western kind, or the island kind, but the actual kind), an atheist, a Hindu (I see no reason why I should simply use a Hindu baseline philosophy with my atheism, the dharmic 'religions' are fairly blurred between atheism and theism anyway), and although I am a non-violent and ethically-minded person, I am a nihilist, because personal belief in some kind of morality dosent mean those morals are worth anything - they are just nice ways of maintaining motivation and ethics without the presence of vengefull deity belief in my humble opinion, not that presence of god-fear prevented theists of the past from acting in depraved ways.

Anyhow, nice to meet you all, perhaps if I had no ego, and was detached from this mortal existence, I wouldnt have announced my presence, and perhaps if I had such controll over ego, there would be no need to post at all, or communicate with anyone, meaning that all the most enlightened people who have found this forum have chosen not to post in it? Just one of many interesting questions.

[Jennifer]

Welcome Marquis.

I like Sade's Smooth Operator, but I haven't really listened to anything by the Marquis. Is he good?

:D

[Marquis de Sade]

Yes, you may want to listen to 'Philosophy in the Bedroom' and '120 Days of Sodom' the latter of which was recently covered by 50 Cent and Red Army Choir.

;-)

[GodlessHeathen]

Welcome Marquis.

I like Sade's Smooth Operator, but I haven't really listened to anything by the Marquis. Is he good?

:D
Thousands of satisfied ladies would say "yes".

[Marquis de Sade]

Welcome Marquis.

I like Sade's Smooth Operator, but I haven't really listened to anything by the Marquis. Is he good?

:D
Thousands of satisfied ladies would say "yes".
Ah, a believer in my gospel perhaps :-P

[Atheist@Umich]

Welcome to the forum Marquis. We're probably part of a very small group of people in the world that actually know what your talking about when you describe your beliefs.

[Marquis de Sade]

Ah cool, none of the usual 'how can you be an atheist and a Hindu!!?' stuff then ;-)

[Switch25]

Welcome Marquis de Sade!!

Glad to have an atheist hindu with us- maybe you can share your religion with some of the Christians who come to "spread the light of truth" about God. :D

[WITHTEETH]

Welcome Sade, Here is your pointy hat and dagger. You will give all mandetory donations to me. Welcome and praise purple elephants!

(by the way if you are a lady, all ladies go through initiation rituals, they involve a toaster and an speakerphone)

[Marquis de Sade]

Welcome Marquis de Sade!!

Glad to have an atheist hindu with us- maybe you can share your religion with some of the Christians who come to "spread the light of truth" about God. :D
Haha yeh, Hinduism kills Christianity in terms of logic and coolness, but I doubt they care, afterall, we are all born sinners and must repent through Jebus, and Hinduism is devilish because god has many arms, and a sense of humor ^^

Welcome Sade, Here is your pointy hat and dagger. You will give all mandetory donations to me. Welcome and praise purple elephants!

(by the way if you are a lady, all ladies go through initiation rituals, they involve a toaster and an speakerphone)
Actually, I prefer to dress in a simple loin cloth, as I am a wandering hermit ;-) Right now, I am talking to you from the top of mount Meru, where my disiples have kindly installed a 2 mbit connection :-D

[Sir Sin-O-Lot]

Welcome to the RA, Marquis de Sade! I like your name. May death come swiftly to your enemies.

Warm Regards,
Sir Sin-O-Lot, Knight of the Square Table

[Switch25]

Welcome Marquis de Sade!!

Glad to have an atheist hindu with us- maybe you can share your religion with some of the Christians who come to "spread the light of truth" about God. :D
Haha yeh, Hinduism kills Christianity in terms of logic and coolness, but I doubt they care, afterall, we are all born sinners and must repent through Jebus, and Hinduism is devilish because god has many arms, and a sense of humor ^^
Yes I think Hinduism is way cooler than Christianity. I've always been interested in buddhism and hinduism but whenever I try to learn about hinduism I just get extremely confused, do you know any internet sites where I could learn about hinduism?

[oliverwxyz]

I have been quite interested in Hinduism at times - it's certainly a more tolerant religion that Christianity and makes somewhat more sense i think. however there are many differnt flavours of Hindu practice and belief aren;t there? In fact there are some kinds that are almost atheistic I think? Or at least very vague in their version of God.

Switch, I don;t know any sites off the top of my head, but one of the keys things most people don;t know about Hinduism is that Hindus don;t necessarily worship a lot of diferent Gods , the diferent gods are often seen as kind of symbolic or facets of one over-riding God or higher power that is kind of in everything - I take it as being pretty pantheistic essentially. It is very inclusive in how you choose to worship because by this token almost anything can represent God - for example a lot of Hindus would probably say it was Ok to worship Jesus as your God if it makes you happy. Interestingly there are three main Gods, almost reminiscent of the trinity idea in Christianity. Also one part of the trinity, Vishnu, has regularly incarnated to help humanity according to tradition.
Don;t know if I am just telling you stuff you already know. Anyhow. Hindus also do some quite nice food by my experience. LOL - veggie curries and interesting sweets etc.

BTW I take it it is your nihilism which means you chose the name Marquis de Sade - or is it his other preferences ;) He essentially thought your personal pleasure should come first and life was essentially survival of the fittest - about right? You should act according to every whim and desire and ignore any suffering caused to others, but if we all acted like that though there would be chaos and a lot less of a chance for the average person to feel happy and secure I guess - so certain codes of ethics etc which encourage us to have concern for others are good for all of us in the log run, no? Without it you would live in fear all the time and you would have no friends and there would be no social stability or cooperation, which allow for the development of a stable society in which we have a chance at 'pursuing happiness' and goods and services to help us achieve it.

By the way his books are certainly different aren;t they? I've dipped into one or two - pretty strong stuff. And an atheist of course... Not surprising he spent so much time in prisons/asylums, I mean considering the period he lived in...

oliver

[oliverwxyz]

BTW MdS as you seem to say you are a Brahmin can you tell me would it be true to say that traditionally achieving the Hindu version of liberation (which is kind of becoming one with God, as opposed to the BUddhist god-less species) can only be done from a Brahmin life? I mean that other people have to be good and hope for rebirth in higher castes until they become Brahmins? I remember reading that somewhere and wondered if it was true. The whole caste thing is one of he less appealing aspects of Hinduism to the westerner I think.

Oliver

[Another brick in the wall]

I think one of the reasons the British were able to effectively rule India for so many years is that both cultures had a rigid class system.

[oliverwxyz]

Sounds possible.

[Marquis de Sade]

Yes I think Hinduism is way cooler than Christianity. I've always been interested in buddhism and hinduism but whenever I try to learn about hinduism I just get extremely confused, do you know any internet sites where I could learn about hinduism?
Yeh, also Hindu gods kick ass ;-)

I have been quite interested in Hinduism at times - it's certainly a more tolerant religion that Christianity and makes somewhat more sense i think. however there are many differnt flavours of Hindu practice and belief aren;t there? In fact there are some kinds that are almost atheistic I think? Or at least very vague in their version of God.

Switch, I don;t know any sites off the top of my head, but one of the keys things most people don;t know about Hinduism is that Hindus don;t necessarily worship a lot of diferent Gods , the diferent gods are often seen as kind of symbolic or facets of one over-riding God or higher power that is kind of in everything - I take it as being pretty pantheistic essentially. It is very inclusive in how you choose to worship because by this token almost anything can represent God - for example a lot of Hindus would probably say it was Ok to worship Jesus as your God if it makes you happy. Interestingly there are three main Gods, almost reminiscent of the trinity idea in Christianity. Also one part of the trinity, Vishnu, has regularly incarnated to help humanity according to tradition.
Don;t know if I am just telling you stuff you already know. Anyhow. Hindus also do some quite nice food by my experience. LOL - veggie curries and interesting sweets etc.

BTW I take it it is your nihilism which means you chose the name Marquis de Sade - or is it his other preferences ;) He essentially thought your personal pleasure should come first and life was essentially survival of the fittest - about right? You should act according to every whim and desire and ignore any suffering caused to others, but if we all acted like that though there would be chaos and a lot less of a chance for the average person to feel happy and secure I guess - so certain codes of ethics etc which encourage us to have concern for others are good for all of us in the log run, no? Without it you would live in fear all the time and you would have no friends and there would be no social stability or cooperation, which allow for the development of a stable society in which we have a chance at 'pursuing happiness' and goods and services to help us achieve it.

By the way his books are certainly different aren;t they? I've dipped into one or two - pretty strong stuff. And an atheist of course... Not surprising he spent so much time in prisons/asylums, I mean considering the period he lived in...

oliver
His other preferences ;-) I find the honesty of perversion to be philosophically appealing, although I dont believe in his interpretation of hedonism. The Japanese in this respect are probably the most philosophically honest modern society, just watch any Hentai lol ;-) Im a fan of Fredrich Neitzche too, hence the nihilism :-D

I dunno what post it was in, but I did a nice summary of Hindu athiesm and stuff somewhere... Aha, heres a quote:

Question: Hey Marquis de Sade, as a Hindu, how familiar are you with the works of Cremo, the Hindu Creationist?

Actually, ive never heard of him/her :-)

Most modern Hindus accept the theory of evolution and the big bang in its entirety, because it dosent really conflict with Hindu belief, even theist belief - Hinduism, as Carl Sagan said, is the only 'religion' to get the timeframe of the universe in the right area - i.e. several billion years, etc.

As a dharma (which more accuratly describes non-Abrahamic 'religions' as it means something like 'spiritual philosophy), Hinduism is more like the collected works of several thousand philosophers spanning 10,000 years - where each opinion is as valid as the next - from atheistic ones, such as Jainism and Purva Mimansa, agnostic ones, such as Buddhism and Vedanta, and theist ones such as Bhakti and Sikhism (the latter of which was influenced by Islamic philosophy, as it is fairly new in terms of history).

Really Hinduism just means the collective philosophical works of 'Hind' - i.e. the Indian subcontienent, but after the arrival of the concept of 'conversion' (before that, most rulers would equally patronise all forms of dharma), Hinduism is seen by many to mean what western scholars call the 'orthadox' branches of Indian spiritual philsophy, such as Vedanta, Bhakti, Tantra, Yoga, etc, and Buddhism and Jainism are usually seperated as 'unorthidox' - but as you have no doubt realised, this is a slight fallacy seeing as Hinduism has no 'othadox' ^^

Its a pity western philsophical courses only teach western philosophy, because this tradition is basically like that of ancient Greece - except it never ended - one can still find a wandering Plato or Pyroh (I can never spell his name, but a lot of people dont know, he was actually a soldier in Alwexander's army, and once had the oppertunity to discuss various philosophies with Indian brahmins, before returning to Greece) in India.

As an example of my personal beliefs of atheistic Hindu dharma, I believe in the law of 'karma' - that our actions in life generate repercussions based upon our actions, even if those repercussions are only psychological. In most American school textbooks, this would be explained only in the most theistic of terms - i.e. "the Hindoo believes that 'sinning' in life, will lead to rebirth in a lower form, such as an insect" lol ^^

These days in India, to counter the orginised Muslim and CHristian victimisation of hindus, many grassroots movements take pointers from evangelists, and try to dogmatise the faith, turning Lord Rama or Lord Krishna into some sort of 'Moses' or 'Mohammed', which is kinda sad, but now that India is doing well economically, im sure many people will see past such sad attempts.
I mentioned a few of the schools of dharmic philosophy there - esentially Buddhism was originally intended as one of them, but Buddha's followers basically elevated him from philosopher to 'saint' after his death.

Really the only reason Hinduism is confusing to learn about is because of the diversity, as a vulcan would say (Infinate Diversity in Infinate Combinations), however, ill gladly explain any specific questions about dharmic philosophy for anyone interested.

May death come swiftly to your enemies.
Thanks, ive found where most of them are hiding already, but Pat Robertson eludes me ^^

BTW MdS as you seem to say you are a Brahmin can you tell me would it be true to say that traditionally achieving the Hindu version of liberation (which is kind of becoming one with God, as opposed to the BUddhist god-less species) can only be done from a Brahmin life? I mean that other people have to be good and hope for rebirth in higher castes until they become Brahmins? I remember reading that somewhere and wondered if it was true. The whole caste thing is one of he less appealing aspects of Hinduism to the westerner I think.
I dont wanna pick on you by any means, because there is many who have similar thoughts about Hinduism, (i.e. immediatly thinking about caste), but the caste system is infact social, and not religious - in the early scriptures, and the most important ones (which themselves are more like philosophical opinion than dogma), caste, or varna, was a system of three equal disiplines in life, each no more important than the other, and most importantly not hereditary - but infact based on personal choice as demonstrated by how one of the most famous rishis (who wrote the Ramayan) was a bandit before choosing to lead the life of a brahmin (philiosopher). The caste system subsequently became currupted when kings installed their own system of 'jatis', which is more like 'clans' - based upon the traditional practice of that family or clan. This happened fairly recently, and even then, although now hereditary for the purpose of medieval state-running, was probably not yet 'un-equal'. What made the caste system of today was the rulers' introduction of the idea of 'outcastes' - something which probably originated in the Rajputs - basically, to discourage their population from converting to Islam due to the monetary tax imposed on all non-Muslims after the Islamic invasions, the kings decreed that people who converted, even if they later converted back (after a relaxation in Islamic taxation for example) would be outcastes, and shunned. Also, India had probably been the richest area on earth prior to the Arab/Turkic/Mughal invasions, and so the new economic hardship created by wealth being shipped back to Muslim lands to build Mosques in Persia and central asia after raids may have altered the clan system to become more discriminatory. Later philosophical texts, written within the last millenia therefore do mention the idea of labourers, outcastes, etc - but they, unlike western texts which cannot be questioned as they are supposed to be the word of god, are mearly philosophical opinion of the time. If more of the tribals and villagers who still practice this today knew the true meaning, perhaps they would give up - however, many of these village elders have vested interests in continuing caste opression, and so until India's law enforcement agencies appear more threatening, it will no doubt continue in areas of the country. Also, since in the end, Hinduism is just opinion, there is no reason why people should follow any kind of caste, as it is not a 'law' or 'commandment'. I picked the brahmin name as I debate philosophy - thats good enough for me. When im studying martial arts maybe I would think of myself as kshatriya, when trading in a company or labouring, a vaisya, etc.

So to summarise that massive amount of text, you dont even have to know anything about caste to know Hindu philosophy - the reason it is brought up a lot in western textbooks and linked to Hinduism is mainly because Christians write the syllabus :-P

The 'Western Only' Curriculum -
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/articledesc.asp?cid=127883

Stereotyping Hinduism in American Education -
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/articledesc.asp?cid=111452

A couple of interesting articles by an American Indian (not the native kind).

Switch, I don;t know any sites off the top of my head, but one of the keys things most people don;t know about Hinduism is that Hindus don;t necessarily worship a lot of diferent Gods , the diferent gods are often seen as kind of symbolic or facets of one over-riding God or higher power that is kind of in everything - I take it as being pretty pantheistic essentially. It is very inclusive in how you choose to worship because by this token almost anything can represent God - for example a lot of Hindus would probably say it was Ok to worship Jesus as your God if it makes you happy. Interestingly there are three main Gods, almost reminiscent of the trinity idea in Christianity. Also one part of the trinity, Vishnu, has regularly incarnated to help humanity according to tradition.
Don;t know if I am just telling you stuff you already know. Anyhow. Hindus also do some quite nice food by my experience. LOL - veggie curries and interesting sweets etc.
Pretty good explination there, although there is an additional facet of Hinduism - it is essentially monotheistic - because most of the theistic schools of Hinduism view each form of god (including the pantheistic ideas you mentioned) as part of one 'god' - pretty much exactly the same as how Christianity views the trinity as one entity, except of course, in Hinduism, that one god isnt neccesarily a 'god' at all, but could be 'the universe', or a concept, or a law of nature or something, depending again on differing philosophy - one of the other ironies of the way Christian education and media demonises Hinduism, is whilst they go on about 'they worship a million beastly gods', most theistic Hindus infact are 'worshipping' different aspects of one god - just like Christians do with the holy ghost and jesus or whatever. Another fallacy is that Muslims destroyed countless exquisit temples and statues in India and elsewhere in the name of iconoclasm - infact Hindu icons arnt even icons at all, but simply representations of elaborate concepts - which the Msulims probably knew, but still used as an excuse to destroy what they saw as pagan archutecture (and frankly temples look better than any bland mosque or church, so that is a hell of a pity).

I think one of the reasons the British were able to effectively rule India for so many years is that both cultures had a rigid class system.
Most feel that the secret of their sucess was the age-old colonialist tactic of 'divide and conquer' - they turned existing animosity, such as that of Muslim opression, againt each other and played off maharajas against each other, etc. Also, technology helped once they had established controll.

[Daniel]

Not to quibble, but:

Marquis de Sade wrote: "Im a fan of Fredrich Neitzche too, hence the nihilism"

In fact, Nietzsche hated nihilists. Read his later books criticizing Wagner, "Nietzsche contra Wagner," "The Case of Wagner," and his books "Beyond Good and Evil" and "The Antichrist." Also his postuhumous publications "The Will to Power" edited by Walter Kaufmann and a newer book edited by R.J. Hollingdale which uses the same materials as "The Will to Power" (Nietzsche's notebooks) but not as heavily edited. Those books have a lot on Nietzsche's views on nihilism. He felt one of the biggest problems with Christianity was its tendency to nihilism and accused Wagner and the age he lived in of submitting to nihilism.

Other than that, hi. You sound like you can provide an interesting view on the world and its issues. Welcome.

[Switch25]

Thanks for the info everybody. I was wondering though, what are the names of all the "holy books" in Hinduism.

[oliverwxyz]

Thanks for the post MdS, you obviously know vastly more detail about Hinduism than I do. Switch, a good Hindu text to try is the Baghavad Gita, a popular passage from the Mahabarata epic in which Vishnu explains his philosophy in his incarnation as Krishna. This is a good illustration of the typical idea of one God as a kind of ultimate reality behind everything, represented by the character of Krishna who is temporarily incarnate in a role as a prince's charioteer. He gives advice to the prince as to the ethics of war interspersed with religous teachings. Some other famous Hindu scriptures include another epic tale the Ramayana about Vishu incarnate as the hero Rama , the Upanishads and the earliest founding texts are called the Vedas.

[oliverwxyz]

Yes I think Hinduism is way cooler than Christianity. I've always been interested in buddhism and hinduism but whenever I try to learn about hinduism I just get extremely confused, do you know any internet sites where I could learn about hinduism?
Yeh, also Hindu gods kick ass ;-)
Yes, much more glamorous than Jesus LOL. I think Shiva is quite cool.

- Hinduism, as Carl Sagan said, is the only 'religion' to get the timeframe of the universe in the right area - i.e. several billion years, etc.
Good point - I noticed that too. I forget now but is there a moment of creation in Hinduism or is it a case of endless cycles? Bit like people who go for a repeated big bang big crunch scenario.

As an example of my personal beliefs of atheistic Hindu dharma, I believe in the law of 'karma' - that our actions in life generate repercussions based upon our actions, even if those repercussions are only psychological. In most American school textbooks, this would be explained only in the most theistic of terms - i.e. "the Hindoo believes that 'sinning' in life, will lead to rebirth in a lower form, such as an insect" lol ^^
Annoying - but not far off for some Hindus I suppose? I mean apart from the CHristian term 'sinning'. Your version is pretty incontestable I'd say. I mean your future is obviously dependent, for good or bad, upon actions you take in the present. That's just common sense.

These days in India, to counter the orginised Muslim and CHristian victimisation of hindus, many grassroots movements take pointers from evangelists, and try to dogmatise the faith, turning Lord Rama or Lord Krishna into some sort of 'Moses' or 'Mohammed', which is kinda sad, but now that India is doing well economically, im sure many people will see past such sad attempts.
Yes, that is sad. I mean they are pretty obvisously symbolic/mythological, although having said that I suppose there's a slight possibility they could have been based on real people who lived in prehistory. Another trend I have noticed is sects that take their version of God as being the 'right' one and make him out to be more of a individualised being than in mainstream Hinduism - like the Hare Krishna people who I believe hope to go and live with Krishna (seen as the one main God) in some form of Heaven after they die.

I dont wanna pick on you by any means, because there is many who have similar thoughts about Hinduism, (i.e. immediatly thinking about caste), but the caste system is infact social, and not religious -
Caste wasn't the first thing I said about Hinduism was it?! But it is the least appealing aspect of Hindu culture (well now they don't have suttee, for example). I am aware it is maybe more of a cultural thing in origin than a religious one, but it has become bound up with the religion now hasn't it? At least in India.


one of the most famous rishis (who wrote the Ramayan) was a bandit before choosing to lead the life of a brahmin (philiosopher).
That's interesting - I mean the idea of caste as a choice.

Hindu icons arnt even icons at all, but simply representations of elaborate concepts - which the Msulims probably knew, but still used as an excuse to destroy what they saw as pagan archutecture (and frankly temples look better than any bland mosque or church, so that is a hell of a pity).
I think the Hindu attitide towards the deity statues is one of the most easily misunderstood things for a westerner. It is easy to get the impression Hindus are paying devotion to the statues themselves with the elaborate care that is given to them (and the fact that in English they are sometimes referrred to by Hindus themselves as 'idols') and the impression that after they are consacrated somehow they come 'alive' and have the appropriate deity dwelling in them. I would guess the attitude towards them would vary from Hindu to Hindu with the more superstious seeing them as almost living beings worthy of worship in themselves and the more sophisticated seeing them as symbolic of aspects of God (or the universe...), like you. Would that be a fair assessment? Either way I personally see them as no different to eg statues or icons in a Catholic church - something on which to focus while praying, not an object of worship in itself.

[Marquis de Sade]

Not to quibble, but:

Marquis de Sade wrote: "Im a fan of Fredrich Neitzche too, hence the nihilism"
Yeh, I was hoping nobody would notace that ;-) I m a fan of Fredrich Neitzche really just due to his reasoning over 'god is dead' - i.e. nobody is capable of believing in the Christian god if they have been educated in science, etc, somrhting which I believe can only point to nihilism, even if Neitxche didnt.

Thanks for the info everybody. I was wondering though, what are the names of all the "holy books" in Hinduism.
Rig Veda
Sama Veda
Yajur Veda
Arthrava Veda

(These are the earliest texts of Hinduism, and so some people might consider them 'core' texts, however, they are mainly ritualistic manuals from early Indian religion, and so although they contain moral examples which later philosophers have derived philosophy from, they are basically guidebooks for a system of life that ended about 3000 years ago, and so apart from for the sake of historical intruigue, I dont pay much attention to them - it is also worth noting that the ancient holy book of the Persian Zoroastrians was based upon passaged from the Rig Veda, which itself is the oldest known book in the world).

Upanishads

(These are a philosophical commentary on the Vedas, and were written just before the foundation of Jainism and Buddhism, symbolising a new period in complex philosophical work, and are also said to have influenced Taoism in some way, essentially Mahavira's founding of the Jain school in 650 BC, and Buddha's founding of the Buddhist school in 550 BC, are direct results of both influence from the Upanishads, and philosophical disagreements with them).

Ramayana
Mahabharata

(These are the two epics of India, and as such, are considered by many to be the most important books, they are not only holy books, but also vast epics, the first one of which may be the oldest such type of work, even outdating Sumeria's Gilgamesh, and the second of which is the longest poem/epic in the world, despite being written almost 3000 years ago from a possibly older legend. The first epic deals with the arcane story of the 7th avatar of Lord Vishnu - Rama, and it is unclear whether this takes place in a previous cycle of the universe's creation, as the language is often quite vague - however, I personally believe that if it was based on a real historical figure, it probably took place as far back as 6700 BC, which is the traditional 'founding' of Indian society. The Ramayan is venerated as an epic as far away as Japan, and is the national epic of Thailand. The Mahabharata deals with the story of the 8th avatara of Vishnu - Krishna. It is from this book that the next holy book comes).

Bhagavad Gita
Puranas

(These are respectively a chapter from the Mahabharata containing a commentary between Krishna and a prince called Arjuna, which is essentially a philosophical debate in the middle of a battlefield, where Krishna gives to Arjun his opinion on what ethics and perception of the universe would best benefit people. The Puranas are a collection of texts assotiated with lineage, various gods, and stories that are linked to the epics, or seperate. Many Hindus, especially Vishnu devotees, would consider the Gita the most important book, and indeed, it is an important philosophical work in my view, but just opinion).

The Laws of Manu
The Sacred Laws of the Arya
The Institutes of Vishnu

(These are much more contemporary books, which were sometimes written as recently as this millenia, and contain the laws as layed down by Hindu kings in their kingdoms, as well as philosophical opinion of the age. Most Hindus probably havent heard of these).

The Vedanta Sutras
The other writings of Śankarâchârya
The Buddhist Sutras
The Jain Sutras
The Devi Gita
The Verses of Vemana
The Vimanika Shastra
The Sánkhya Aphorisms of Kapila
The Zend Avesta
The Guru Granth Sahib

(These books are philosophical works of various schools of thought, including Vedanta, Buddhism, Jainism, Bhakti, etc, the last one being the holy book of the Sikhs. The Buddhist Sutras consist of a lot of works, many of which were translated into Chinese and other east asian languages, becoming important books elsewhere. The Jains also have multiple texts. I have included the Persian Zend Avesta for the sake of completeness, as it is based upon the Rg Veda, and in ancient times, Persia stretched from India to Greece).

The Yoga Sutras
The Kama Sutra
The Works of Kalidasa
Thousands of year of collected devotional songs, tales, etc
Other works

(These are the other ancient works, which dont fit in with the rest, as they often contain disiplines such as martial arts, yoga, sex, archutecture, etc, and Kalidasa is considered the Indian shakesphere, albiet 1000 years earlier. Stuff like the Yoga Sutras and Kama Sutra are one example of many similar books - the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali being collected Yogic texts - the Kama Sutra being an important text for the Tantra school, but also a manual on enjoying sex, and pleasuring a sexual partner better (considered a duty in marriage by many Hindus). Also the massive works of devotional songs, etc, and childrens tales/fables, fall into this 'other' catagory).

Thanks for the post MdS, you obviously know vastly more detail about Hinduism than I do. Switch, a good Hindu text to try is the Baghavad Gita, a popular passage from the Mahabarata epic in which Vishnu explains his philosophy in his incarnation as Krishna. This is a good illustration of the typical idea of one God as a kind of ultimate reality behind everything, represented by the character of Krishna who is temporarily incarnate in a role as a prince's charioteer. He gives advice to the prince as to the ethics of war interspersed with religous teachings. Some other famous Hindu scriptures include another epic tale the Ramayana about Vishu incarnate as the hero Rama , the Upanishads and the earliest founding texts are called the Vedas.
Yup, although stay away from those wierd Hare Krishna guys who act like Christians lol, they have basically made it their bible, and Krisna their Jesus Khrist ;-)

Yes, much more glamorous than Jesus LOL. I think Shiva is quite cool.
Yeh Shiva and Kali are my personal favorites, kinda wierd how in that fucked up Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, they made Shiva into a thinly veiled version of the Christian god, and made Kali into the 'devil', even though they are consorts, and Kali is the 'destroyer of ignorance' ^^ I like what she symbolises - her nakedness is honest, her fury and destruction of ignorance probably feels like my extreame hatred of someone like Pat Robertson ;-)

Good point - I noticed that too. I forget now but is there a moment of creation in Hinduism or is it a case of endless cycles? Bit like people who go for a repeated big bang big crunch scenario.
Yeh cycles - and seeing as I lean towards the big crunch followed by big bang theory (or the string theory equivalent), it kinda fits exacvtly with my scientific beliefs, at least until they can be disproven, or a better theory comes along.

Annoying - but not far off for some Hindus I suppose? I mean apart from the CHristian term 'sinning'. Your version is pretty incontestable I'd say. I mean your future is obviously dependent, for good or bad, upon actions you take in the present. That's just common sense.
Its suprising how much of philosophy is what we would consider 'common sense' ;-) I think that many Hindus probably do view reincarnation assotiated with karma as leading to rebirth penalties, although im not sure what school that is assotiated with. The only reincarnation I believe in is that my molecules will oneday form something else, but alas, who knows what scientific quirk of nature might lend more wieght to it in future. Out of interest, Zoroastrains leave their dead on top of a mound so that birds may be fed by their bodies - thats a nice natural way of sending your molecules back into nature ;-)

Yes, that is sad. I mean they are pretty obvisously symbolic/mythological, although having said that I suppose there's a slight possibility they could have been based on real people who lived in prehistory. Another trend I have noticed is sects that take their version of God as being the 'right' one and make him out to be more of a individualised being than in mainstream Hinduism - like the Hare Krishna people who I believe hope to go and live with Krishna (seen as the one main God) in some form of Heaven after they die.
Yeh, dead right, although many people, myself included do think that they were probably based on real events - Krishna might not have existed, but I do believe the Mahabharata war for example, and events surrounding it, are linked to a real history buried somewhere under it. Although some complete asshole at Nasa had the guile to name the recently discovered evidence of a land bridge between India and Lanka 'Adam's Bridge', one of the most famous parts of the Ramayana is when Rama crossed the bridge - in that epic, it was said to be manmade by shifting thousands of tons of rock - this might be based on how it used to be exposed at low tide perhaps, or perhaps even there was once a king who filled in a few gaps when the sea levels were still low enough that it was an archepilago.

Caste wasn't the first thing I said about Hinduism was it?! But it is the least appealing aspect of Hindu culture (well now they don't have suttee, for example). I am aware it is maybe more of a cultural thing in origin than a religious one, but it has become bound up with the religion now hasn't it? At least in India.
Not really no, thats what im trying to say there - caste isnt even that important in India, and the government is slowly attempting to wipe 'jati' out through legislation, yet for example, the average schoolbook in the west will skip over any detail of Hindu philosophy or belief, and go straight to sati and caste - the equivalent would be to teach Christianity by just mentioning the spanish inquisition, or teaching atheism through Mao, surely you can see how bad then it is that people place so much emphisis on it. Many of these same textbooks teach that 'India is poor because of its backwards beliefs' - how can a greater insult be made? Does 200 years of colonial pillaging not contribute to that? Im not a religious or a nationalist person, yet I feel that is very wrong. Im not by any means having a go at you, but rather how Hinduism, a philosophical system, is often deliberatly assotiated with caste, as a deliberate attempt to make India look more 'pagan' and backwards. Also, I pretty much know what kind of person decided to subtly defame Indian philosophy like that - evangelists, which is why its painfull for one atheist to see another who has been effected by that.

That's interesting - I mean the idea of caste as a choice.
Thats the way I see it, and many modern Hindus, and apparently, that is how it was originally intended, so its a shame so many Hindus are uneducated about what they consider to be their religion.

I think the Hindu attitide towards the deity statues is one of the most easily misunderstood things for a westerner. It is easy to get the impression Hindus are paying devotion to the statues themselves with the elaborate care that is given to them (and the fact that in English they are sometimes referrred to by Hindus themselves as 'idols') and the impression that after they are consacrated somehow they come 'alive' and have the appropriate deity dwelling in them. I would guess the attitude towards them would vary from Hindu to Hindu with the more superstious seeing them as almost living beings worthy of worship in themselves and the more sophisticated seeing them as symbolic of aspects of God (or the universe...), like you. Would that be a fair assessment? Either way I personally see them as no different to eg statues or icons in a Catholic church - something on which to focus while praying, not an object of worship in itself.
Yeh, not that there is anything wrong with polytheistic peoples, such as the Shinto, etc, but because of this misinterpretation (or perhaps misrepresentation?), Hinduism is easily assoitated with 'the devil' or another primative supernatual superstition (lol) to defame it. Reason for the joke there is that this is often how western faiths describe easter ones as 'mystical', and yet, if one looks closely, it is infact Abrahamic faiths which contain more superstition - the biggest example of which is the devil - a being said to be the cause of all evil - in eastern faiths, evil is only the product of human nature, such as ignorance, prejudice, etc - the idea of a supernatural being creating 'sin' would seem quite ludacris to any easterner as judgemental as an evangelist ;-) Also the concept of total intrinsic good and total intrinsic evil would - eben the most depraved dictator is only human, and has soon 'good'. Also, I would argue that to be good in life, one must know the darkest evil from its own perspective, to distinguish one from another - that is why in my opinion, nieve people who vote idiots into power, are also always the ones who dont even let their kids watch violent movies.

When a Hindu makes offering to a statue, it is pretty much always symbolic - you may have seen how Chinese traditionalists offer insence to their ancestors - they dont believe those ancestors are really there in the shrine, it is a symbolic gesture, and the same with Hindus offering gifts to 'murtis'. So, whilst I and other Hindus, by no means think any less of idol worship than anything else, I must say that there is probably next to nobody who actually views the murti as god, the idea of a spirit inhabiting a murti is basically part of theistic belief that 'god is everywhere, or is everything. You are right that this can be confusing, because, for example, the school of 'bhakti' (devotion), is one in which total surrender to god (which dosent even have to be an entity) is deemed an alternative to renoucing the world (its kinda like spitiual masochism, with the ego instead being destroyed by absolute devotion) - in this school, as a way of focuing this disapline, a person might do anything, maybe wash a murti as if it was a person - to anyone watching this would seem as though those people think the murti is alive - in reality they might not even be theists, but simply using that as a focal symbol in their practical meditiation.

One has to wonder (as I often do) whether all those biblical accounts of so called 'idol worship' were not infact something similar to this? When Mohammed destroyed the religious relics of another faith by casting them out of the kaaba, could they have infact been not idols at all? Since I find it philosophically unsound that even a very uneducated person would worship an object as a deity, I have to conclude that msot cases of 'idolatry', such as when Moses killed 4000 of his own followers for 'worshipping' a golden calf, were probably not idolatry at all. That golden calf could have been like a cross for all he knew - their messiah might have been trampled to death by a cow, making it their symbol? But unfortuantly, people are not willing to ask such questions, as demostrated by how Salman Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' was recieved.

[oliverwxyz]

Yeh, dead right, although many people, myself included do think that they were probably based on real events - Krishna might not have existed, but I do believe the Mahabharata war for example, and events surrounding it, are linked to a real history buried somewhere under it. Although some complete asshole at Nasa had the guile to name the recently discovered evidence of a land bridge between India and Lanka 'Adam's Bridge', one of the most famous parts of the Ramayana is when Rama crossed the bridge - in that epic, it was said to be manmade by shifting thousands of tons of rock - this might be based on how it used to be exposed at low tide perhaps, or perhaps even there was once a king who filled in a few gaps when the sea levels were still low enough that it was an archepilago.
Sounds possible - guess we'll never know. How insensitive to name the land bridge after a CHristian character when there was such a more relevenat local one...


Not really no, thats what im trying to say there - caste isnt even that important in India, and the government is slowly attempting to wipe 'jati' out through legislation, yet for example, the average schoolbook in the west will skip over any detail of Hindu philosophy or belief, and go straight to sati and caste - the equivalent would be to teach Christianity by just mentioning the spanish inquisition, or teaching atheism through Mao, surely you can see how bad then it is that people place so much emphisis on it. Many of these same textbooks teach that 'India is poor because of its backwards beliefs' - how can a greater insult be made? Does 200 years of colonial pillaging not contribute to that? Im not a religious or a nationalist person, yet I feel that is very wrong. Im not by any means having a go at you, but rather how Hinduism, a philosophical system, is often deliberatly assotiated with caste, as a deliberate attempt to make India look more 'pagan' and backwards. Also, I pretty much know what kind of person decided to subtly defame Indian philosophy like that - evangelists, which is why its painfull for one atheist to see another who has been effected by that.
I agree with you. However I think maybe - and I'm only talking about my experience of the UK here - you have a slightly over-negative view of how Hindusim is taught to western people (even a slight persecution complex?... don't get mad with me!). At my school when we were taught about it I don't recall caste was mentioned at all, if so it wasn't stressed, I recall (a bit simplistic) explantions of reincarnation and the gods etc. And most books on religion I have read or dipped into over the years, including over-views of world religion and encyclopaedias etc, don't stress it either or make out Hinduism to be backwards. I would say also that for a lot of more 'liberal' western people Hidu culture still has some kind of aura of 'mystic' truth and maybe some 'deeper' meaning that Christianity and the west have lost sight of. I do think though that many western people have a mistaken idea about Hindus being polytheistic though, not as you said, that there is necessarily something 'wrong' with this. Many gods make as much sense as one really (especially if you view them as beings, not just another name for the universe).

Yeh, not that there is anything wrong with polytheistic peoples, such as the Shinto, etc, but because of this misinterpretation (or perhaps misrepresentation?), Hinduism is easily assoitated with 'the devil' or another primative supernatual superstition (lol) to defame it. Reason for the joke there is that this is often how western faiths describe easter ones as 'mystical', and yet, if one looks closely, it is infact Abrahamic faiths which contain more superstition - the biggest example of which is the devil - a being said to be the cause of all evil - in eastern faiths, evil is only the product of human nature, such as ignorance, prejudice, etc - the idea of a supernatural being creating 'sin' would seem quite ludacris to any easterner as judgemental as an evangelist ;-) Also the concept of total intrinsic good and total intrinsic evil would - eben the most depraved dictator is only human, and has soon 'good'. Also, I would argue that to be good in life, one must know the darkest evil from its own perspective, to distinguish one from another - that is why in my opinion, nieve people who vote idiots into power, are also always the ones who dont even let their kids watch violent movies.
Agree with you about the Devil. As a concept I think he makes very little sense. Also I think there is something in what you say about needing to have known the full range of human feelings and experiences (or to a degree anyway...!) in order to make moral choices and how no one is totally 'evil'.

When a Hindu makes offering to a statue, it is pretty much always symbolic - you may have seen how Chinese traditionalists offer insence to their ancestors - they dont believe those ancestors are really there in the shrine, it is a symbolic gesture, and the same with Hindus offering gifts to 'murtis'. So, whilst I and other Hindus, by no means think any less of idol worship than anything else, I must say that there is probably next to nobody who actually views the murti as god, the idea of a spirit inhabiting a murti is basically part of theistic belief that 'god is everywhere, or is everything. You are right that this can be confusing, because, for example, the school of 'bhakti' (devotion), is one in which total surrender to god (which dosent even have to be an entity) is deemed an alternative to renoucing the world (its kinda like spitiual masochism, with the ego instead being destroyed by absolute devotion) - in this school, as a way of focuing this disapline, a person might do anything, maybe wash a murti as if it was a person - to anyone watching this would seem as though those people think the murti is alive - in reality they might not even be theists, but simply using that as a focal symbol in their practical meditiation.
Yes, I took the murti worship to be connected with the 'God in everything' kind of idea. However I did attend a ceremony for the rededication of deity statues at which they performed elaborate rituals to somehow imbue them with the presence of the respective gods. Even so I still assumed it was more traditional or symbolic than anything too literal. I also think, as you say, the way some people bathe and dress the statues and even offer foods etc could easily be misunderstood. But I guess it can be seen as similar to any other ritual act which allows the worshipper to focus on and respect whatever their deity means to them - they aren't literally paying homage to that statue.

One has to wonder (as I often do) whether all those biblical accounts of so called 'idol worship' were not infact something similar to this? When Mohammed destroyed the religious relics of another faith by casting them out of the kaaba, could they have infact been not idols at all? Since I find it philosophically unsound that even a very uneducated person would worship an object as a deity, I have to conclude that msot cases of 'idolatry', such as when Moses killed 4000 of his own followers for 'worshipping' a golden calf, were probably not idolatry at all. That golden calf could have been like a cross for all he knew - their messiah might have been trampled to death by a cow, making it their symbol? But unfortuantly, people are not willing to ask such questions, as demostrated by how Salman Rushdie's 'The Satanic Verses' was recieved.
Absolutely. And in any case Christians have their own 'idols' - like the statues of saints and Mary or crucifixes in catholic churches. Only the Muslims are strict about the idea of not representing God. I also find it unlikely anyone would literally worship an inanimate object as a God. Very obviously there is some negative spin being put on such passages as that Biblical one you mentioned. Also in the OT you notice how, for example the Cannaanites are depicted as demon-worshipping and debauched etc whereas their 'Baal' just meant 'Lord' and was probably not much different from Jehovah. I also understand that in early times Jehovah appeasr to have had a consort...

As for the Satanic Verses, as you might know, this controversy also applies to a belief in female deities. The pre-Islamic Arabs worshipped multiple deities, with Allah as the main one, but there were also eg, a number of less important godesses who I think, were his daughters. There was a goddess called Allat and I understand Al- Lat just means 'the goddess' in the way that Al-Lah means the god. It is said that one day some Arabs asked if it was OK to still pray to the goddesses and, In a moment of weakness, Mohammad said - yes, Ok, they are the divine birds who carry your prayers to Allah. And they went off happy. Later Mohammad regretted this and said Satan made him do it and those 'Satanic' verses were removed from the Koran. I'm not sure how this legend applies to Rushdie's book (which I've not read), but it's interesting I think.

Oliver

[Marquis de Sade]

How insensitive to name the land bridge after a CHristian character when there was such a more relevenat local one...
My feelings exactly - the story of Rama's bridge is famous amongst the billion people of India, and some guy just chose to name it after a Christian charecter. Really, even Mount Everest should be called by its Nepali/Tibetan name, but thats the way things go I guess.

I agree with you. However I think maybe - and I'm only talking about my experience of the UK here - you have a slightly over-negative view of how Hindusim is taught to western people (even a slight persecution complex?... don't get mad with me!). At my school when we were taught about it I don't recall caste was mentioned at all, if so it wasn't stressed, I recall (a bit simplistic) explantions of reincarnation and the gods etc. And most books on religion I have read or dipped into over the years, including over-views of world religion and encyclopaedias etc, don't stress it either or make out Hinduism to be backwards. I would say also that for a lot of more 'liberal' western people Hidu culture still has some kind of aura of 'mystic' truth and maybe some 'deeper' meaning that Christianity and the west have lost sight of. I do think though that many western people have a mistaken idea about Hindus being polytheistic though, not as you said, that there is necessarily something 'wrong' with this. Many gods make as much sense as one really (especially if you view them as beings, not just another name for the universe).
Ah, didnt know you were British - really when I say western, its mainly the American education system that im on about, as mentioned in those two articles I posted - I dont doubt that the British education system is better, as England is a more secular country inspite of those values not being enshrined in any constitution. When I was in Britian, I did hear that the education system tends to be more focussed around the three major Abrahamic faiths, even though there are more Sikhs and Hindus than Jews, but in comparison to the level of bias displayed in American textbooks, and preached by people like Pat Robertson, that is nothing ;-) And you are right that liberals are often better informed than their schooling.

Agree with you about the Devil. As a concept I think he makes very little sense. Also I think there is something in what you say about needing to have known the full range of human feelings and experiences (or to a degree anyway...!) in order to make moral choices and how no one is totally 'evil'.
Yeh, it is one of my personal beliefs, which is why I try to be as cultured as possible (not that it isnt rewarding to know about the world's diversity just for pleasure).

Yes, I took the murti worship to be connected with the 'God in everything' kind of idea. However I did attend a ceremony for the rededication of deity statues at which they performed elaborate rituals to somehow imbue them with the presence of the respective gods. Even so I still assumed it was more traditional or symbolic than anything too literal. I also think, as you say, the way some people bathe and dress the statues and even offer foods etc could easily be misunderstood. But I guess it can be seen as similar to any other ritual act which allows the worshipper to focus on and respect whatever their deity means to them - they aren't literally paying homage to that statue.
Cool, did you visit the London Sri Swaminarayan mandir? Another aspect of giving offerings is that charity and help of other without the expectation of even the slightest gratitude in return is seen as good for the ego, that could also be something to do with it ;-)

Absolutely. And in any case Christians have their own 'idols' - like the statues of saints and Mary or crucifixes in catholic churches. Only the Muslims are strict about the idea of not representing God. I also find it unlikely anyone would literally worship an inanimate object as a God. Very obviously there is some negative spin being put on such passages as that Biblical one you mentioned. Also in the OT you notice how, for example the Cannaanites are depicted as demon-worshipping and debauched etc whereas their 'Baal' just meant 'Lord' and was probably not much different from Jehovah. I also understand that in early times Jehovah appeasr to have had a consort...

As for the Satanic Verses, as you might know, this controversy also applies to a belief in female deities. The pre-Islamic Arabs worshipped multiple deities, with Allah as the main one, but there were also eg, a number of less important godesses who I think, were his daughters. There was a goddess called Allat and I understand Al- Lat just means 'the goddess' in the way that Al-Lah means the god. It is said that one day some Arabs asked if it was OK to still pray to the goddesses and, In a moment of weakness, Mohammad said - yes, Ok, they are the divine birds who carry your prayers to Allah. And they went off happy. Later Mohammad regretted this and said Satan made him do it and those 'Satanic' verses were removed from the Koran. I'm not sure how this legend applies to Rushdie's book (which I've not read), but it's interesting I think.
Yeh, also ironically, because the Zoroastrianism of the Persians, and the perior Vedic type beliefs were distantly related to Hinduism through trade, etc, ironically, many people suspect that people like the Caananites and the original users of the Kaaba were probably distant 'Vedists', if that was ever proven true, it would mean that the eastern religions have even more to be pissed off about.

As for Rushdie's book, which has underfuntaly had to be banned here due to the large Muslim outcry against the government following its publishing, I believe it indeed focuses on 'what if' those verses were true? And what if Mohammed had been tricked by Satan to battle an angel, rather than the other way? These were alegedly insulting ideas, and so India's history of one of the most free and liberal medias was ruined when Rajiv Gandhi was forced to ban the book. Rushdie himself was regretfull that his own people whom the book was aimed at couldnt ever read it (he is an atheist Indian of Muslim parentage, probably in the same vein as other leftists like Arundathi Roy, etc). I have since bought the book off amazon, but havent read it yet.

Heres a bit more about all that:

http://www.atheists.org/Islam/

[oliverwxyz]

Ah, didnt know you were British - really when I say western, its mainly the American education system that im on about, as mentioned in those two articles I posted - I dont doubt that the British education system is better, as England is a more secular country inspite of those values not being enshrined in any constitution. When I was in Britian, I did hear that the education system tends to be more focussed around the three major Abrahamic faiths, even though there are more Sikhs and Hindus than Jews, but in comparison to the level of bias displayed in American textbooks, and preached by people like Pat Robertson, that is nothing ;-) And you are right that liberals are often better informed than their schooling.
Ah ok. You;re right the UK is fairly secular in the outlook of most people, you don't tend to get a lot of Christain evangelising or overt suggestions of Christainity/western cluture being better than other cultures. That's despite Christinity still having too much residual influence in our institutions. I went to a state secondary school and I would say the religious education in the first few years was quite balanced, however if you took it as an exam option in further years it was all about Chrstianity (that MAY have changed now, I'm talking about 15-20 years ago). I believe some recent guidelines on RE in schools said something about how they should emphasize Chrsitianity, while still mentioning other religions, so that's not good if I'm right (doesn;t help our PM is a fervent Christian). Then there is the fact that schools are supposed in theory to have a daily religious assembly, which if it happens is likely to be of a Christian flavour (unless I guess in some city are where 90% of the kids are Hindu or Muslim..) although generally quite watered down (I mean emphasis on ethics more than God perhaps). We did sing a hymn daily at the (traditional) state school I went to for my sixth form studies. Also many primary schools are actually run by the CofE so I can imagine some Christian indoctrination goes on there...





Cool, did you visit the London Sri Swaminarayan mandir? Another aspect of giving offerings is that charity and help of other without the expectation of even the slightest gratitude in return is seen as good for the ego, that could also be something to do with it ;-)
No I've not visited it although I did drive past once. I mean to sometime. I understadn it is very impressive.
LOL I guess you certainly can't expect much 'gratitude' from a statue!


Yeh, also ironically, because the Zoroastrianism of the Persians, and the perior Vedic type beliefs were distantly related to Hinduism through trade, etc, ironically, many people suspect that people like the Caananites and the original users of the Kaaba were probably distant 'Vedists', if that was ever proven true, it would mean that the eastern religions have even more to be pissed off about.
Hmmm guess so. Who knows if that is true? I assume at any rate they did have more in common with the Vedists than the monotheists, whether or not there was a direct link of some sort. on a different point, here is also an off-the-wall theory that Jesus went to Indoa and learned Yogic techniques isn't there - in the 'lost' years between his childhood and his ministry. More likely he was just being a village carpenter.

As for Rushdie's book, which has underfuntaly had to be banned here due to the large Muslim outcry against the government following its publishing, I believe it indeed focuses on 'what if' those verses were true? And what if Mohammed had been tricked by Satan to battle an angel, rather than the other way? These were alegedly insulting ideas, and so India's history of one of the most free and liberal medias was ruined when Rajiv Gandhi was forced to ban the book. Rushdie himself was regretfull that his own people whom the book was aimed at couldnt ever read it (he is an atheist Indian of Muslim parentage, probably in the same vein as other leftists like Arundathi Roy, etc). I have since bought the book off amazon, but havent read it yet.

Heres a bit more about all that:

http://www.atheists.org/Islam/
Thanks, I'll check it out. Doubtless I'll read the book at some point. I've never read his adult books - I started Midnight's Children and got bored with it. That was a while ago though. maybe willl try again. I can reccomend Haroun and the Sea of Stories though, great fun.

Oliver

[oliverwxyz]

Yup, although stay away from those wierd Hare Krishna guys who act like Christians lol, they have basically made it their bible, and Krisna their Jesus Khrist ;-)
Don;t worry, I wasn;t planning on becoming a Hare Krishna devotee! However I did once visit their UK HQ - a mansion called Baktivedanta Manor, whcih was donated by (Beatle) George Harrison. I also eat at a restaurant they have in London from time to time - because I like the food. I noticed their version of things - Krishna as the true God and being virtuous so as to go and live in his Heaven with him, was somewhat removed from what mainstream Hinduism is about.
I have also seen people try to make paralells between Christ/Krishna, however I would guess there is actually no etymological link - as Christ is Greek for anointed (aka Hebrew Messiah) and Krishna, I think, means black (so why is he depicted as blue? ;-)

Vishnu certainly got in there before Mr Christ with the whole incarnations thing though.

oliver

[Marquis de Sade]

Ah ok. You;re right the UK is fairly secular in the outlook of most people, you don't tend to get a lot of Christain evangelising or overt suggestions of Christainity/western cluture being better than other cultures. That's despite Christinity still having too much residual influence in our institutions. I went to a state secondary school and I would say the religious education in the first few years was quite balanced, however if you took it as an exam option in further years it was all about Chrstianity (that MAY have changed now, I'm talking about 15-20 years ago). I believe some recent guidelines on RE in schools said something about how they should emphasize Chrsitianity, while still mentioning other religions, so that's not good if I'm right (doesn;t help our PM is a fervent Christian). Then there is the fact that schools are supposed in theory to have a daily religious assembly, which if it happens is likely to be of a Christian flavour (unless I guess in some city are where 90% of the kids are Hindu or Muslim..) although generally quite watered down (I mean emphasis on ethics more than God perhaps). We did sing a hymn daily at the (traditional) state school I went to for my sixth form studies. Also many primary schools are actually run by the CofE so I can imagine some Christian indoctrination goes on there...
Ah I didnt realise there was actually hymn type stuff - in India, schools are either secular state-run ones, based upon often colonial era (i.e. wildly out of date and even anti-Hindu) syllabus, as well as what ever changes the state government has made - so for example, in Tamil Nadu, where there is a strong presence of a nationalist party that believes in the old 'Aryan Invasion Theory', they have added some subtle racial nationalist stuff, which is complete bull, but are otherwise quite liberal. In neghbouring Kerala, which has a democratically elected communist government, the emphesis is even more secular and atheist than most states. Then the other type of school is the private run ones, which are mostly Islamic and Christian, and of course quite biased. Muslim schools were given special dispensation by the government when India became independent to prevent foreigners setting up schools - Christians as a small minority on the other hand wernt, and now most of the non-historical colonial-era schools of theirs are run by evangelist charities to convert the poor. Personally I think conversion should be outlawed in India as it is in other states, but Christian groups would say it is 'opression'.

The reason there are no Hindu 'schools' as such is that Hinduism dosent believe in conversion - it is like ancient Greece - if you are curious and want to know some aspect, just ask a rishi or do some reading - i.e. there is no 'preaching', people seek out knolwedge on their own accord - which is why conversion groups piss me off even more ^^ Someone who wants to devote themselves to philosophy can go off and live with hermits on a mountain or in a temple or whatever, spirituality is private rather than public - no gang/brownshirt mentality - no communal worship (apart from fetivals, which are just good excuses to have fun, a bit like Chinese New Year).

No I've not visited it although I did drive past once. I mean to sometime. I understadn it is very impressive.
LOL I guess you certainly can't expect much 'gratitude' from a statue!
Actually thinking about that, I once realised that India is seen by some conservative westerners in a wierd light sometime - like for instance, when I came to Britian, some of the less educated people I knew (I believe they are known as 'chavs' hehe), thought wierd things, like that India is a desert country, or a Muslim country, etc, which is a far cry from the 60s image of the land of gurus and sitars :-P And many Indians unfortunatly know that westerners kinda 'picture' the Taj Mahal when they think of India, when infact, thats a pretty bland ediface built in a foriegn style by indiginous archutects - a far better representation is temples such as this:

Gopurams:
http://www.indiainvites.com/HAPPY/Madurai%20Temple.jpg

Gopuram Cutaway:
http://img286.imageshack.us/img286/5885/xxxxxxxxxx9sa.th.jpg (http://img286.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xxxxxxxxxx9sa.jpg)

They Tower Over the Rest of Madurai:
http://www.fotosearch.com/bigcomps/corel/CPH469/595022.jpg

Thousand Pillar Hall:
http://tinypic.com/azi5mx.jpg

Central Shine:
http://img32.echo.cx/img32/1451/madurai7ts.jpg

And heres where the pretty photos are from incase you wanna browse (blatent attempt on my part to make tourists come and help the economy lol):
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=450

Made out of solid almost diamond-hard Indian grantie, several stories tall, and 1000 years old, covered with elaborite decorations ;-) The one in London is in the northern style, where the central shrine is enlarged and decorated with a 'vimana' tower, meant to represent the ancient space ships described in legend - this one in the picture is from the south, where like in east asia, instead of enlarging the shrine, the style was to enlarge the gateways or 'gopurams'. Temples such as the one at Ankor Watt in Cambodia, or Indonesian ones, usually combine the two styles, as do some in middle India. Because the pagoda was invented around the region of modern Nepal, their temples resemble Chinese, Tibetan and Japanese archutecture somewhat, with those distinctive 'sloping roofs'.

Again, not so much a British thing, but it is a bit screwed up hearing people in America say "are you native Indian or 'middle-eastern' Indian" lol ^^ I guess that is said because many picture the Taj and think 'oh right that looks like a mosque'.

Of course, thousands of these mandirs were destroyed through iconoclasm (often to hide the fact that they simply wanted the gold). Yet, due to the 'horrificly demonic' nature of these blasphemous sites, the colonials made the Taj the symbol of India, and nobody knows the 'real' India that much anymore.

Hmmm guess so. Who knows if that is true? I assume at any rate they did have more in common with the Vedists than the monotheists, whether or not there was a direct link of some sort. on a different point, here is also an off-the-wall theory that Jesus went to Indoa and learned Yogic techniques isn't there - in the 'lost' years between his childhood and his ministry. More likely he was just being a village carpenter.
Yeh interesting theory, although I cant help but be sceptical, because I see Jesus as an anti-Roman Jewish nationalist ;-) It would explain a lot if he went to Kashmir with three wise Rishis or something though lol - Judaism combined with Buddhism :-p

Thanks, I'll check it out. Doubtless I'll read the book at some point. I've never read his adult books - I started Midnight's Children and got bored with it. That was a while ago though. maybe willl try again. I can reccomend Haroun and the Sea of Stories though, great fun.
You would perhaps enjoy a lot of the atheist and liberal litrature that famous Indians like Arundathi Roy put out, although many of those kin of authors tend to be Marxist - something I used to believe in, before I realised that globalisation is probably more beneficial.

Don;t worry, I wasn;t planning on becoming a Hare Krishna devotee! However I did once visit their UK HQ - a mansion called Baktivedanta Manor, whcih was donated by (Beatle) George Harrison. I also eat at a restaurant they have in London from time to time - because I like the food. I noticed their version of things - Krishna as the true God and being virtuous so as to go and live in his Heaven with him, was somewhat removed from what mainstream Hinduism is about.
I have also seen people try to make paralells between Christ/Krishna, however I would guess there is actually no etymological link - as Christ is Greek for anointed (aka Hebrew Messiah) and Krishna, I think, means black (so why is he depicted as blue? ;-)
Kali means black, but I think a lot of gods who are meant to have pitch black skin are depicted in blue in art so that you can see their features - whereas black dosent leave room for different shades - sometimes you see dark grey though ;-) Although I dont like the Hare Krishtians that much, George Harrison was a pretty cool guy - I think he was probably partly tought by Ravi Shankar, so he may have been more familiar with non-Vishnu-centric stuff ;-)

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BTW, because I have been slightly critical of American portrayal of Hinduism, and I infact deeply respect left/liberal/atheist/agnostic American society, i would just like to show where my claims come from:

"Little India magazine's November, 2003, issue gives statistics on an enormous increase in hate crimes against Indian-Americans – crimes that are specifically against ethnic/religious identities. Recent research available from Pew Trust shows a disturbing trend, namely, that Americans believe Islam to be the highest and Hinduism to be the second highest cause of religious violence, while rating Christianity as the religion that is least prone to causing violence. In another recent survey cited by Prof. Wuthnow of Princeton University, 25% of Americans associate Hinduism with “fanaticism.”"

This interview here is also quite informative:
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=181242

And why it is not good in modrn society to neglact the east:
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/articledesc.asp?cid=127883
And this letter epitomises what i am saying, and is a genuine one from an Indian-American site, by some kid:

It's 8:00 a.m., and students slowly trickle into Mr. West's 6th grade history class. The majority of the people, including the teacher, are white. One African-American, two Orientals, and myself, a second generation Indian girl, make up the rest of the class.

On the blackboard is written "World Religions." As the rest of the class prepares for a boring two hours, I can already feel my stomach sink - what did I do to deserve this?

We are handed a fill-in-the-blank chart of major world religions and are instructed to look in our books for the answers. Finishing quickly, I hand in my chart to Mr. West at his desk, and turn to leave. "Now wait a minute, you put 'monotheistic' down for Hindooism," he remarks.

"I know," I reply, feeling my face burn as the class looks up.

"Hindoos are polytheistic."

"No, they're not,"

"Are you a Hindoo?"

"Yeah."

"Oh."

Scattered murmurs break out among my peers, whispering about how freaky Hindus worship elephants and monkeys. Great.

"Well," Mr. West says standing up and going to the chalkboard, "from what I understand, Hindoos are all about their caste system." And he begins a long, irrelevant, and incorrect explanation, which he memorized from our textbook. What does that have to do with being monotheistic? I don't even bother correcting him, to save myself any more embarrassment. I wanted to get out of there. Fast.

7th grade starts, and it's culture day in history. "Both of my parents are Indian--" I begin when it's my turn. "Do you mean Native American Indian, or Middle Eastern Indian?" my teacher asks. Sounds like it's going to be another fun year in social studies.

When 8th grade starts, India and Hinduism are summed up in a few short sentences by the teacher. India is described as filled with pollution, cows, and poverty-stricken people. Hindus love to bathe in rivers where they throw the ashes of their parents and yes, they do worship elephants and monkeys.

"Do you speak Indian?" I'm asked at least two times a week. "I heard there were two thousand gods and every full moon you had to give a sacrifice to them. Do you do that?" No, I try to explain that all the gods are really aspects of one almighty being. I've never sacrificed anything except my dignity, which slowly dwindles with each question.

The release of popular award-winning books such as Homeless Bird, which portrays the typical Indian girl who is forced to get married at thirteen, didn't help Indians anywhere. And, who could have guessed, the author hadn't even been to India! No kidding.

Six entire chapters in the textbook were devoted to Christianity, whereas one page is given to the history of India and the teachings of Hinduism. A second page is entirely about Lord Shiva, accompanied by a rather unbecoming picture of an ancient dancing Shiva statue. Buddhism gets one paragraph.

This doesn't make sense, as most of the school already knows so much about Christianity, but hardly any even knew Buddhism or Hinduism existed. Now that they did, we would be ridiculed publicly. Thank you, Board of Education.

At last, high school starts. I almost die of shock when I see the 9th grade textbook has devoted an entire 3 sentences to Sikhism and Jainism. It claims Sikhism "combines the Muslim belief of one god with the Hindu belief of reincarnation."

Christianity in India and the ever-popular "western influence" get pages and pages of text. One of the main pictures which help represent "typical life in India" is one my fellow students describe as some sort of drag-queen in make-up doing an obscure peacock dance. Out of all the dazzling pictures of Indian culture, that is the one they have to stick in? They chose that one over a picture of, say, the classic Taj Mahal?

But the fun just gets funnier -- the next picture of a sari earns a whole two sentences. Oh, but it's not an exquisite silk or glittering embroidered sari. Nope, it's a dirty yellow (perhaps once white) cotton sari worn by an old woman bathing in the Ganges River. In spite of its pollution, "Hindus readily drink and bathe in the Ganges' water; people even come to die in the river." To further prove their point, they stick in a picture of a filthy and trash laden section of Ganges, not a clean part, which much of it is.

I kid you not, upon reading this and looking at the picture, a boy in my class had to be excused to the nurse's office because his stomach had become queasy.

Now we come to the sacred cow. They say entire streets are blocked because Hindus don't want to run over our beloved cow. C'mon, even in America, people aren't going to just run over a local cow; they'll find a way to move it or get around it.

On an ending note, Indians are technologically behind. They fail to mention that we have a space program, nuclear capabilities, and many Indians, believe it or not, have heard of a computer.

Every day, young desi children and teenagers are unreasonably tormented because of our perceived background. The school textbooks are half the cause. The average American doesn't know squat about India, and with the help of poorly researched textbooks, they learn nonsense. The sheer embarrassment of the situation is enough to make desi students everywhere wish we could have been "normal" by American standards. Explaining to your peers that you don't worship a thousand gods like the Greeks; your grandmother doesn't force you to bathe in dead people's ashes every full moon; and even though you know how to bhangra, kuchipudi, or whatever it may be, you've never danced with a drag-queen, is not fun for any young desi.

But why do we put up with it? Jewish, African-American, and Orientals all have organizations against defamation and they are represented correctly in the textbooks. Why aren't we? If Christians can effectively lobby to remove the theory of evolution from school science textbooks, then certainly we should be able to at least correct the blatant misinterpretation of our culture. Reading what you or your child's Social Studies textbooks says on India and Hinduism and writing a simple letter or e-mail to the editor can make a world of difference for not only you but for thousands of others. A letter to the Board of Education for your district can't hurt either, since they decide which textbooks will be used. It only takes five minutes of your time, but it can change how you, an Indian, are viewed in society.

Desis are being ridiculed everywhere in America because of what today's modern student is learning. It's not going to change unless we become part of the solution.

[Another brick in the wall]

Hindu temples fucking rock! Way better than squat, ugly, identical churches in my neck of the woods.

[Marquis de Sade]

They had economic purposes too ;-) And in a way served the same fuction as a theme park does in modern society.

[Switch25]

SO MUCH INFO! MY HEAD WILL EXPLODE! :o

Yes, I love to see pictures of the Hindu temples. They are very nice but I'd like to see one for myself, maybe after I get out of college. :)

[Marquis de Sade]

Hehe, you asked for the holy books, so I listed every one I knew :-p

[oliverwxyz]

Thanks for the pics MdS - I've seen that temple before, but it's magnificent. I also agree though with St T who said it is a shame that such fabulous buildings are created in the name of religion rather than something else more useful. I always think that when I see British cathedrals and such-like (even though, like I said, I feel that Hinduism has a bit more going for it than Christianity - no 'believe this precise creed or you go to Hell' etc).

And I see what you mean about the rubbish some people are taught about Hindus from your example. <sigh>

[Marquis de Sade]

Although it is a pity such beauty is created for religion, lets not forget that they were created in a time before rational science - therefore, we cant critisise them in this way ;-)

Also, many Indian temples were built by atheist schools of thought - Jain temples are some of the most spectacular, so maybe they should be looked on more kindly ;-)

[oliverwxyz]

Although it is a pity such beauty is created for religion, lets not forget that they were created in a time before rational science - therefore, we cant critisise them in this way ;-)

Also, many Indian temples were built by atheist schools of thought - Jain temples are some of the most spectacular, so maybe they should be looked on more kindly ;-)
OK, fair enough :-) Anyway, like I say at least Hindusim doesn't have such a hateful message - that everyone who disagrees gets eternally deep fried. And it's art is more fun and not so gloomy and masochistic.

Oliver

[Marquis de Sade]

Nothing wrong with masochism ;-)

:-p

[oliverwxyz]

;) trust you ....