It Is the Father Who Draws

[lastinline]

The Bible records that Jesus told us, "No man can come to me, unless the Father, who hath sent me, draw him." John 6:44

John Calvin commented on the verse, "For many are so foolish that, in the things of God, they depend on the opinions of men; in consequence of which, they entertain suspicions about the Gospel, as soon as they see that it is not received by the world."

Calvin is here speaking to believers (especially new believers) and reminding us that we should not lose faith in the Gospel when men reject it. And that we should remember that unless drawn (can also be translated dragged or compelled) by the Father. And further, that it is foolish to be suspicious of the Gospel based on this rejection. Let us keep this truth in mind when we as Christians would be tempted to beat those who this board is designed to serve repeatedly over the head with the Gospel, and then increase the severity of the blows at their rejection of that Gospel, that we might be demonstrate our understanding of the things of God to His glory. Let us remember that it was Christ who said here that, "No man can....unless the Father....draw him."

Calvin continues, "Unbelievers, on the other hand, flattering themselves in their obstinacy, have the hardihood to condemn the Gospel because it does not please them."

I would ask those who profess a non-belief in the God of Abraham, Issac, and David if you see in yourselves an obstinacy (or the synonyms: certainty, decidedness, determination, doggedness, dogmatism, firmness, persistence, resoluteness, resolve, stubbornness) in your rejection of the Gospel, because (I know this won't surprise you) we Christians certainly do. Would you agree that the only way you would come to Jesus is if you were literally dragged? That may sound odd, but our fallen state precludes us from moving to Him unless, as Jesus tells us in John 6:44, "the Father...draw him."

lil

[Kamikaze189]

Shouldn't this belong on some Christian boards? Atheists don't need warnings about losing their belief in god.

[Choobus]

lastline, may I invite you to eat my shit you jesus sucking godidiot cunt.

all the best,

Choobus

[lastinline]

lastline, may I invite you to eat my shit you jesus sucking godidiot cunt.

all the best,

Choobus
CB,

Believe it or not, God actually may one day drag you to himself. And I can assure you that you don't quite measure up in your real life to the depths of disobedience that some who God subsequently called rose to.

As for the invite, I'll pass.

lil

[Choobus]

I might be concerned about god dragging me somewhere, if GOD wasn't really your code word for "made up bullshit". Somewhere deep in your heart you know that the christian religion is a fraud, that the bible is a meaningless collection of stories and that you are a hypocrite. When you get old you will bitterly regret wasting your lide with such foolish drivel.

Thus, fuck you, fuck your faggot god and double fuck Jesus H Christ, the biggest phony ever to not walk the earth. And you should still eat my shit you cunt. One teaspoon of my shit contains more truth than all the bibles ever printed combined. You, sir, are an assclown.

[Another brick in the wall]

Physical proof of an afterlife? I'd like to see that.

[Switch25]

Shouldn't this belong on some Christian boards? Atheists don't need warnings about losing their belief in god.
But they do need warnings about where their lack of belief in God will lead them just as I warn my children where playing in the street will get them. It's so ironic that people care so much about not doing things that will lead to death, but completely ignore the things that will lead them to eternal torment. But they've been warned so they're without excuse. :)
But you do need warnings about your lack of belief in Allah will lead you just as I warn my children where playing in the street will get them. It's so ironic that people care so much about not doing things that will lead to death, but completely ignore the things that will lead them to eternal torment. But you have been warned so you're without excuse. :)

[ghoulslime]

Shouldn't this belong on some Christian boards? Atheists don't need warnings about losing their belief in god.
But they do need warnings about where their lack of belief in God will lead them just as I warn my children where playing in the street will get them. It's so ironic that people care so much about not doing things that will lead to death, but completely ignore the things that will lead them to eternal torment. But they've been warned so they're without excuse. :)
Go discuss crayon colors with your first grade teacher, and leave the thinking for those of us gifted with the capacity for abstract thought.

[Baphomet]

Carico, this is god. Okay, uh, this was a test, so, uh, now go home and don't bother these sinners anymore. If you disobey me, I'll send you to hell.

[lastinline]

I might be concerned about god dragging me somewhere, if GOD wasn't really your code word for "made up bullshit". Somewhere deep in your heart you know that the christian religion is a fraud, that the bible is a meaningless collection of stories and that you are a hypocrite. When you get old you will bitterly regret wasting your lide with such foolish drivel.

Thus, fuck you, fuck your faggot god and double fuck Jesus H Christ, the biggest phony ever to not walk the earth. And you should still eat my shit you cunt. One teaspoon of my shit contains more truth than all the bibles ever printed combined. You, sir, are an assclown.
CB,

Your comments reflect the completeness of your bondage to death. The Bible tells us that unless called by God you will remain a slave to it. In other words, the above words are just CB doing what comes naturally. Of course, there are certain restraints in your life that prevent you from going beyond a certain point in your disobedience to God's law. That's why you really cannot descend below the level to which you've let yourself sink.

As for "made up bullshit", Romans 1:21 tells us that, "For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." The Bible says that what your mind tells you is a lie. On the other hand, you tell me that what has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit is a lie. One of us is being deceived.

Therefore, I would think that we both should be continually reconciling our beliefs as fresh evidence comes in. You believe that I am deluded because I am weak-minded. I believe that you refuse to see the evidence because of your pride, which makes you unable to see it. But I dare not condemn or belittle you because that finger would turn and point directly to me. In my flesh I like you was unable to move toward God. But my eyes were opened to the truth because of his mercy, which was more than abundant in my life.

Now Mark 16:16 tells us that, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." This of course is the bitter pill. Is it the truth? I believe that it is. You don't believe that it is. But on this I am certain we will agree; in any context salvation would be preferred over condemnation.

I won't attempt to shake your dead bones to life as that would be futile. But I tell you that even now there are those that are close to you who are laying your name at the throne of God that he might show you the mercy that brings the dead to life. And I am praying for them.

fly safe,
lil

[GodlessHeathen]

As for "made up bullshit", Romans 1:21 tells us that, "For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." The Bible says that what your mind tells you is a lie. On the other hand, you tell me that what has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit is a lie. One of us is being deceived.
There is no evidence that the bible is an accurate document- the "true word of god", if you will. You believe the bible is truth because you accept it on faith. Some of us prefer a little more meat, if you will.

Now Mark 16:16 tells us that, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." This of course is the bitter pill. Is it the truth? I believe that it is. You don't believe that it is. But on this I am certain we will agree; in any context salvation would be preferred over condemnation.
You've done kind of a variation on Pascal's Wager here. One of the main flaws in that logic is this: How do you know your concept of salvation is the right one? What if Islam is right? What if Hinduism is right? If that's the case, you're no better off than we are on judgment day.

I won't attempt to shake your dead bones to life as that would be futile.
Not to sound glib here, but if that's the case, what are you doing here? Many (I would say most) of us came from religious backgrounds. I was a Christian for 30 years. The decision to "reject god" isn't one that I personally (I won't claim to speak for anyone else) did not take lightly. It is really nothing more than the triumph of reason over faith.

[Choobus]

I might be concerned about god dragging me somewhere, if GOD wasn't really your code word for "made up bullshit". Somewhere deep in your heart you know that the christian religion is a fraud, that the bible is a meaningless collection of stories and that you are a hypocrite. When you get old you will bitterly regret wasting your lide with such foolish drivel.

Thus, fuck you, fuck your faggot god and double fuck Jesus H Christ, the biggest phony ever to not walk the earth. And you should still eat my shit you cunt. One teaspoon of my shit contains more truth than all the bibles ever printed combined. You, sir, are an assclown.
CB,

Your comments reflect the completeness of your bondage to death. The Bible tells us that unless called by God you will remain a slave to it. In other words, the above words are just CB doing what comes naturally. Of course, there are certain restraints in your life that prevent you from going beyond a certain point in your disobedience to God's law. That's why you really cannot descend below the level to which you've let yourself sink.

As for "made up bullshit", Romans 1:21 tells us that, "For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." The Bible says that what your mind tells you is a lie. On the other hand, you tell me that what has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit is a lie. One of us is being deceived.

Therefore, I would think that we both should be continually reconciling our beliefs as fresh evidence comes in. You believe that I am deluded because I am weak-minded. I believe that you refuse to see the evidence because of your pride, which makes you unable to see it. But I dare not condemn or belittle you because that finger would turn and point directly to me. In my flesh I like you was unable to move toward God. But my eyes were opened to the truth because of his mercy, which was more than abundant in my life.

Now Mark 16:16 tells us that, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." This of course is the bitter pill. Is it the truth? I believe that it is. You don't believe that it is. But on this I am certain we will agree; in any context salvation would be preferred over condemnation.

I won't attempt to shake your dead bones to life as that would be futile. But I tell you that even now there are those that are close to you who are laying your name at the throne of God that he might show you the mercy that brings the dead to life. And I am praying for them.

fly safe,
lil
It doesn't help you to quote made up bullshit in order to prove that the bullshit is not made up. This might be a difficult conept for you to understand, but then again, most concepts more complicated that "the cat sat on the mat" probably are as well. You are a phony, your religon is worse than made up bullshit, it is knowingly fake and used only as a tool to manipulate ignorant fools for profit. I pity you.

do you do anal?

[Paradox]

The Bible records that Jesus told us, "No man can come to me, unless the Father, who hath sent me, draw him." John 6:44

John Calvin commented on the verse, "For many are so foolish that, in the things of God, they depend on the opinions of men; in consequence of which, they entertain suspicions about the Gospel, as soon as they see that it is not received by the world."
Calvin believed in predestination. He believed people were destined to go to hell before they even existed, so god basically created people that he knew would do the wrong thing (according to gods version of what was wrong) and send them to hell. It's kind of like having unprotected sex, just so you can abort the fetus.Calvin is here speaking to believers (especially new believers) and reminding us that we should not lose faith in the Gospel when men reject it. And that we should remember that unless drawn (can also be translated dragged or compelled) by the Father. And further, that it is foolish to be suspicious of the Gospel based on this rejection. Let us keep this truth in mind when we as Christians would be tempted to beat those who this board is designed to serve repeatedly over the head with the Gospel, and then increase the severity of the blows at their rejection of that Gospel, that we might be demonstrate our understanding of the things of God to His glory. Let us remember that it was Christ who said here that, "No man can....unless the Father....draw him."
So, god only selects those who have faith in him. This would be the christian wersion of white supremacy. Your beliefs are similar to those of the nazi's, who felt they were born superior to the jews. I guess you think you are superior to the jews as well, because the father didnt give those undeserving kikes faith in christ, unlike he gave it to you.Calvin continues, "Unbelievers, on the other hand, flattering themselves in their obstinacy, have the hardihood to condemn the Gospel because it does not please them."
Nice little strawman you got there. You have created your own little version of atheistic ideology in your head that has little to do with that of real atheists. I never said I dont believe in christianity because it doesnt please me, nore did any other atheists I know of, and hey if you do know of one, feel free to point him/her out. I dont believe in your gospel because evidence doesnt support it. Ofcourse, it's easier to dismiss an atheistic worldview if you dupe yourself into thinking it is only based on emotionalism, which is clearly what your idol calvin has done.I would ask those who profess a non-belief in the God of Abraham, Issac, and David if you see in yourselves an obstinacy (or the synonyms: certainty, decidedness, determination, doggedness, dogmatism, firmness, persistence, resoluteness, resolve, stubbornness) in your rejection of the Gospel, because (I know this won't surprise you) we Christians certainly do. Would you agree that the only way you would come to Jesus is if you were literally dragged? That may sound odd, but our fallen state precludes us from moving to Him unless, as Jesus tells us in John 6:44, "the Father...draw him."
I go were the evidence points, and I will never go to jesus as long as the evidence leads the other way.

[Philboid Studge]

Hi lastinline. Welcome to the forums.

Would you agree that the only way you would come to Jesus is if you were literally dragged?
Maybe not literally dragged, but yes, it would require a little more effort on the part of these supposed gods. I don't think I'm subject to any of these synonyms for obstinacy, as I consider mysef more of a sceptic than an obstinate fellow. (Though I could be wrong!)

Since you quoted Calvin, shall I assume you believe in this 'chosen-elect' business -- in which case it would be rather futile of doubters to come onboard with the Gospel -- or are you a cafeteria-style Calvinist?

[lastinline]

GH,

Here's my response to your last post...

As for "made up bullshit", Romans 1:21 tells us that, "For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." The Bible says that what your mind tells you is a lie. On the other hand, you tell me that what has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit is a lie. One of us is being deceived.
There is no evidence that the bible is an accurate document- the "true word of god", if you will. You believe the bible is truth because you accept it on faith. Some of us prefer a little more meat, if you will.
You will agree that you have eyes and see the same things that I see. Now let me say that as a helicopter pilot I have, on one occasion, scared my crewmembers because, although I was looking directly at them, I did not see a strand of wires directly in our flight path (fortunately I'm pilot of superior care and was flying the approach very slowly, giving me time to stop and gain altitude to clear the wires). In this case my eyes saw but my mind did not perceive. Something, that is my brain being capable of only a limited amount of processing, prevented it. I would say that the same is true in regard to your profession of non-belief. And further, I would tell you that the Bible says it is your bondage to death and sin that prevents it. But again, that is the same thing that could be said of all men in their fallen state. Here's how the Bible describes those who have been regenerated by God:

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (Eph 2:1-3)

That is where all mankind is until and unless God intervenes, as is indicated by the text that follows:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved (Eph 2:4,5)

In the first passage, notice that we, when dead in sin, are only able to follow the course of this world, that is, fallenness. Then when we move to verse 4 there is a way of escape from this fallen state. The focal point is the phrase, "But God." And that indicates that the path out of our fallenness is initiated by God.

Consider this, when (assuming that you have had this happen) you are being cajoled by a Christian who is trying to tell you that you must hear the gospel and repent and be born again, aren't you just sitting there scratching your head wondering how this person expects you to just make a decision and change your own mind on the things of God. To demonstrate, let me ask you to verify for me that the chance of you sitting in front of your computer right now, deciding on your own reasoning to humble yourself before God and bow to him in prayer would be exactly zero. The same thing can be said for all unregenerate people as well as for all regenerate people before God acted to break the chains of sin and death and bring them to life.

But then why preach the gospel if people cannot respond. God chose to use the foolishness of preaching to grow his kingdom. When a preacher preaches the gospel to the lost, he doesn't know which ears are being opened by the Lord and which are allowed to remain closed. The preacher just preaches the truth and leaves the rest in God's hands.

Sooooo. Getting back to your evidence issue, I would tell you that the evidence is overwhelming. But until God opens your eyes you are unable to perceive it.

Now Mark 16:16 tells us that, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." This of course is the bitter pill. Is it the truth? I believe that it is. You don't believe that it is. But on this I am certain we will agree; in any context salvation would be preferred over condemnation.
You've done kind of a variation on Pascal's Wager here. One of the main flaws in that logic is this: How do you know your concept of salvation is the right one? What if Islam is right? What if Hinduism is right? If that's the case, you're no better off than we are on judgment day.
I hope that you can see my above comments that I am not "picking" (my word) what I see as the "best bet" and doing so only as an insurance policy for a better stake in the afterlife. It is a case of the one who claims in his Word to have created both the universe and me who choses me, not the other way around. I'm afraid that no fallen man can make that wager, it's impossible.

I won't attempt to shake your dead bones to life as that would be futile.
Not to sound glib here, but if that's the case, what are you doing here? Many (I would say most) of us came from religious backgrounds. I was a Christian for 30 years. The decision to "reject god" isn't one that I personally (I won't claim to speak for anyone else) did not take lightly. It is really nothing more than the triumph of reason over faith.
As to what I'm doing here. Simply what I said that God has commanded me to do. That is, to preach the gospel. Beyond that, I will leave things to him. Believe me when I say that I do have a true compassion for everyone that might read these words.

Finally, let me tell you with humility and respect for your beliefs that if you, "rejected God", you were never regenerated. A person that has truly been called by God and been born again of the spirit may wander far from God and sin, but that person would never be able to break the relationship that God has brought about through regeneration.

lil

[lastinline]

Paradox, thanks for the response, here's my thoughts...

The Bible records that Jesus told us, "No man can come to me, unless the Father, who hath sent me, draw him." John 6:44

John Calvin commented on the verse, "For many are so foolish that, in the things of God, they depend on the opinions of men; in consequence of which, they entertain suspicions about the Gospel, as soon as they see that it is not received by the world."
Calvin believed in predestination. He believed people were destined to go to hell before they even existed, so god basically created people that he knew would do the wrong thing (according to gods version of what was wrong) and send them to hell. It's kind of like having unprotected sex, just so you can abort the fetus.
Calvin believed in predestination? Of course he did. So do I. Here are a few verses that make me believe in it too:

Romans 9:10-16
And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

And of course we could go on but I think that you'd quit reading at some point (not after just 3 passages I hope!). When you say that God, "basically created people that he knew would do the wrong thing (according to gods version of what was wrong) and send them to hell." that is true in a sense. Whether we like it or not, the Bible tells us that we have inherited our sinfulness through the seed of Adam. That was due to a choice that Adam made. Under God's plan, (which I know you do not believe in or like) those that will perish are receiving nothing more and nothing less that the justice which they deserve, that being the penalty for sin.

Calvin is here speaking to believers (especially new believers) and reminding us that we should not lose faith in the Gospel when men reject it. And that we should remember that unless drawn (can also be translated dragged or compelled) by the Father. And further, that it is foolish to be suspicious of the Gospel based on this rejection. Let us keep this truth in mind when we as Christians would be tempted to beat those who this board is designed to serve repeatedly over the head with the Gospel, and then increase the severity of the blows at their rejection of that Gospel, that we might be demonstrate our understanding of the things of God to His glory. Let us remember that it was Christ who said here that, "No man can....unless the Father....draw him."
So, god only selects those who have faith in him. This would be the christian wersion of white supremacy. Your beliefs are similar to those of the nazi's, who felt they were born superior to the jews. I guess you think you are superior to the jews as well, because the father didnt give those undeserving kikes faith in christ, unlike he gave it to you.
God doesn't select those who have faith in him. After God quickens one to spiritual life God gives that person the faith necessary to believe. No one can generate that faith within themselves. As for the people of Israel, he did give many a saving faith, but many others within Israel he did not.

During the time of the divided kingdom (Israel in the north and Judah in the south), King Hezekiah sent out couriers with an invitation for all of Judah and Israel to come to Jeruslem for the passover feast after some bad kings before him had neglected this commandment. Here is what the Bible tells us of the result of that invitation:

2 Chronicles 30:10,11
So the couriers went from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them. However, some men of Asher, of Manasseh, and of Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.

So the people of Israel, in their fallen nature, are no different that us. The inclination of their natural state is to laugh, scorn, and mock. Those that did respond were called, and yes, called like I was.

Calvin continues, "Unbelievers, on the other hand, flattering themselves in their obstinacy, have the hardihood to condemn the Gospel because it does not please them."
Nice little strawman you got there. You have created your own little version of atheistic ideology in your head that has little to do with that of real atheists. I never said I dont believe in christianity because it doesnt please me, nore did any other atheists I know of, and hey if you do know of one, feel free to point him/her out. I dont believe in your gospel because evidence doesnt support it. Ofcourse, it's easier to dismiss an atheistic worldview if you dupe yourself into thinking it is only based on emotionalism, which is clearly what your idol calvin has done.
It's not my version of atheistic ideology. This is Calvin commenting on the Bible's description of unbelief.

I would ask those who profess a non-belief in the God of Abraham, Issac, and David if you see in yourselves an obstinacy (or the synonyms: certainty, decidedness, determination, doggedness, dogmatism, firmness, persistence, resoluteness, resolve, stubbornness) in your rejection of the Gospel, because (I know this won't surprise you) we Christians certainly do. Would you agree that the only way you would come to Jesus is if you were literally dragged? That may sound odd, but our fallen state precludes us from moving to Him unless, as Jesus tells us in John 6:44, "the Father...draw him."
I go were the evidence points, and I will never go to jesus as long as the evidence leads the other way.
"I go", yes, you do. Time marches on and we all move forward with it.

[JimVonRamen]

lil,

Funny you mention God's commands. She just sent me a telegram commanding you to give up some anal. When are you stopping by?

[lastinline]

Hi lastinline. Welcome to the forums.

Would you agree that the only way you would come to Jesus is if you were literally dragged?
Maybe not literally dragged, but yes, it would require a little more effort on the part of these supposed gods. I don't think I'm subject to any of these synonyms for obstinacy, as I consider mysef more of a sceptic than an obstinate fellow. (Though I could be wrong!)

Since you quoted Calvin, shall I assume you believe in this 'chosen-elect' business -- in which case it would be rather futile of doubters to come onboard with the Gospel -- or are you a cafeteria-style Calvinist?
Thanks for the welcome PS.

Well the word in the text is "draw", but the same Greek word is used twice in other places in the new testament and once it's talking about some rich people "dragging" a debtor into court and the other talks of people "seizing" Paul and Silas and "dragging" them to the temple court for a trial. Some people I believe he is able to draw, but for others (I'm thinking of me here) it's definitely dragging...Calvin labeled it "irresistible grace".

See my above posts vis a vis election and predestination. Do you think that I would be here if I thought it was up to me to convince you all to turn to Christ? I'll quietly trust the one who can create a universe to be the one who, shall we be polite and say "draws" you.

Thanks for your thoughts and (subtle) humor.
lil

[The Kenosha Kid]

lil,

Funny you mention God's commands. She just sent me a telegram commanding you to give up some anal. When are you stopping by?
JimVonRamen,

You seem to be channeling Choobus. Get thee to a priest for a first-class exorcism, post haste!

The Kenosha Kid

[lastinline]

lil,

Funny you mention God's commands. She just sent me a telegram commanding you to give up some anal. When are you stopping by?
See, here's an example of how one is a slave to their naturalistic, fleshly nature. The good news is that I'm sure JVR has his good points. I think that if I were to flip over in my car near his house he would come over and do what he could to help me even though he doesn't know me.

lil

[JimVonRamen]

Get thee to a priest for a first-class exorcism, post haste!
TKK,

The problem with getting to a priest is that I'm not really into that daddy-little boy play anymore, and I prefer my wine less sanctified ;)

Jim

[The Kenosha Kid]

...but for others (I'm thinking of me here) it's definitely dragging...Calvin labeled it "irresistible grace".
I think I must not be up on my Calvin. I'll have to do a quick self-refresher course, because this seems to me to be completely different from what Calvin was talking about. But as I said, it's been a while.

Simply what I said that God has commanded me to do. That is, to preach the gospel. Beyond that, I will leave things to him. Believe me when I say that I do have a true compassion for everyone that might read these words.
This confuses me. Do you think that your preaching has an effect on anything? Later, you said,

Do you think that I would be here if I thought it was up to me to convince you all to turn to Christ?
This confuses me even more, Lastinline. It seems to me that, if you thought it was up to you to keep us from burning in hell for eternity, you would be here for that reason. Are you saying that you would ignore us if you really thought that you could save us? If our fate has nothing to do with you, why are you here?

You seem to be very genuine in your responses, so believe me when I say that I am not being sarcastic when I ask the above questions. I just don't understand, and I am always eager to learn new things. I am very dense when it comes to some things (my wife will attest to that).

The Kenosha Kid

[JimVonRamen]

See, here's an example of how one is a slave to their naturalistic, fleshly nature.
Absolutely. I'm also a slave to a sexy woman who puts a leash around my neck too. Bet that made you hot.

The good news is that I'm sure JVR has his good points. I think that if I were to flip over in my car near his house he would come over and do what he could to help me even though he doesn't know me.
I would absolutely help you out of your wrecked car, and loving anal sex has nothing to do with that.

Hell, I'd even check out your God-fearing wife after I took you to the hospital.

[The Kenosha Kid]

[The problem with getting to a priest is that I'm not really into that daddy-little boy play anymore, and I prefer my wine less sanctified ;)

Jim
Jim, I guess you will hate this. 216.220.97.17/
How can you be against Man/Boy Love? Didn't you get the official Atheist Handbook, which specifically states all of our rules and whatnot? It states in Law 4 subsection B paragraph ii, "Anybody can do anything they want to do to anyone because there isn't a god and, therefore, there isn't any such thing as morality. So have fun."

If you didn't get the Handbook, then you are not officially an atheist.

I would like to be your Atheist Sponsor; after two more official converts I get a free toaster.

The Kenosha Kid

[Pexio]

...As to what I'm doing here. Simply what I said that God has commanded me to do. That is, to preach the gospel. Beyond that, I will leave things to him. Believe me when I say that I do have a true compassion for everyone that might read these words...
lil's proselytizing reminds me of Walter A. Davis' "The Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism" (http://www.counterpunch.org/davis01082005.html), a snippet below:

"Evangelicalism offers the psyche a chance to be cleansed again of everything that may still fester deep within somewhere, longing to break out. This is an operation fundamentalism shares with its most famous offshoot-Alcoholics Anonymous. Though splitting and projection produce denial, one is always in danger of slipping. One needs a ritual to reestablish who one is by again exorcising what one was. What the meeting does for the alcoholic proselytizing does for the fundamentalist."

Not slipping are you, lil? Off the wagon into reason and rationality?

[JimVonRamen]

How can you be against Man/Boy Love?
TKK,

I must have mis-represented myself! It's not that I'm against Man/Boy Love; it's that I prefer to be the man!

Priests have this unpleasant insistence on topping, and they also will never let me go bareback; I guess my particular form of communion isn't quite what they had in mind.

Jim

[The Kenosha Kid]

How can you be against Man/Boy Love?
TKK,

I must have mis-represented myself! It's not that I'm against Man/Boy Love; it's that I prefer to be the man!

Priests have this unpleasant insistence on topping, and they also will never let me go bareback; I guess my particular form of communion isn't quite what they had in mind.

Jim
Ah, thank you for clarifying your position. Or, rather, specifying your position. That is, your preferred position. Yep, those damn priests are very insistent on their positions. Show me where in the Bible it says that the man with the funny collar gets to be on top, or that the infidel doesn't get a reach-around!

The Kenosha Kid

[lastinline]

...but for others (I'm thinking of me here) it's definitely dragging...Calvin labeled it "irresistible grace".
I think I must not be up on my Calvin. I'll have to do a quick self-refresher course, because this seems to me to be completely different from what Calvin was talking about. But as I said, it's been a while.

Simply what I said that God has commanded me to do. That is, to preach the gospel. Beyond that, I will leave things to him. Believe me when I say that I do have a true compassion for everyone that might read these words.
This confuses me. Do you think that your preaching has an effect on anything? Later, you said,

Do you think that I would be here if I thought it was up to me to convince you all to turn to Christ?
This confuses me even more, Lastinline. It seems to me that, if you thought it was up to you to keep us from burning in hell for eternity, you would be here for that reason. Are you saying that you would ignore us if you really thought that you could save us? If our fate has nothing to do with you, why are you here?

You seem to be very genuine in your responses, so believe me when I say that I am not being sarcastic when I ask the above questions. I just don't understand, and I am always eager to learn new things. I am very dense when it comes to some things (my wife will attest to that).

The Kenosha Kid
TKK,

God uses the gospel as the means of communicating man's fallen state and the redemptive plan that he put into place to the unregenerate (those who are dead in sin). While I have a human compassion for the unsaved people that I meet and speak with (in realtime or cyberspace) my reason for speaking of Christ is to be obedient to God. Of course, if I thought that it was within myself to save others I would absolutely not ignore anyone (even JVR would do that for others). But the fact is, while God commands the church to preach the gospel, the power to call and convert rests solely with God. Of course there are Christians that don't agree with that, and they will tell you that you have to decide to accept Christ. But that isn't what the Bible says.

Why am I here? I am obeying the command to preach the gospel. As he was quoted earlier, God has said that, "he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy." But please remember, that for those who aren't shown mercy, there is no injustice. Justice is served when they receive the wages for their sin.

It's obvious that you aren't being sarcastic.

lil

[JimVonRamen]

Lil,

I wasn't being the least bit sarcastic when I said I would help you out if you were in trouble.

Nor was I being sarcastic when I said I would check out your wife.

[Jay Soos]

Lil,

Your posts so far seem to assume that any athiest would accept the bible as a reliable source of information. If you believe that is the case, please state the reasons you think the bible is a reliable source of information?

[kmisho]

lastinline:
TKK,

God uses the gospel as the means of communicating man's fallen state and the redemptive plan that he put into place to the unregenerate (those who are dead in sin). While I have a human compassion for the unsaved people that I meet and speak with (in realtime or cyberspace) my reason for speaking of Christ is to be obedient to God. Of course, if I thought that it was within myself to save others I would absolutely not ignore anyone (even JVR would do that for others). But the fact is, while God commands the church to preach the gospel, the power to call and convert rests solely with God. Of course there are Christians that don't agree with that, and they will tell you that you have to decide to accept Christ. But that isn't what the Bible says.

Why am I here? I am obeying the command to preach the gospel. As he was quoted earlier, God has said that, "he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy." But please remember, that for those who aren't shown mercy, there is no injustice. Justice is served when they receive the wages for their sin.

It's obvious that you aren't being sarcastic.

lil
I suggest you heed the words of jesus and never ever have sex:

19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

[The Kenosha Kid]

TKK,

God uses the gospel as the means of communicating man's fallen state and the redemptive plan that he put into place to the unregenerate (those who are dead in sin). While I have a human compassion for the unsaved people that I meet and speak with (in realtime or cyberspace) my reason for speaking of Christ is to be obedient to God. Of course, if I thought that it was within myself to save others I would absolutely not ignore anyone (even JVR would do that for others). But the fact is, while God commands the church to preach the gospel, the power to call and convert rests solely with God. Of course there are Christians that don't agree with that, and they will tell you that you have to decide to accept Christ. But that isn't what the Bible says.

Why am I here? I am obeying the command to preach the gospel. As he was quoted earlier, God has said that, "he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy." But please remember, that for those who aren't shown mercy, there is no injustice. Justice is served when they receive the wages for their sin.

It's obvious that you aren't being sarcastic.

lil
lil,

Thank you for explaining your position. Although I strongly disagree with the basis for your beliefs, I have great respect for them. Others will argue with the specifics of your religion, and, I must admit, I probably will too, if you stick around. However, it is clear that you have compassion for others, which, in my view, is one of the best qualities a person can have. At this point, I think that I will simply agree to disagree, and wish you the best.

The Kenosha Kid

[lastinline]

...As to what I'm doing here. Simply what I said that God has commanded me to do. That is, to preach the gospel. Beyond that, I will leave things to him. Believe me when I say that I do have a true compassion for everyone that might read these words...
lil's proselytizing reminds me of Walter A. Davis' "The Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism" (http://www.counterpunch.org/davis01082005.html), a snippet below:

"Evangelicalism offers the psyche a chance to be cleansed again of everything that may still fester deep within somewhere, longing to break out. This is an operation fundamentalism shares with its most famous offshoot-Alcoholics Anonymous. Though splitting and projection produce denial, one is always in danger of slipping. One needs a ritual to reestablish who one is by again exorcising what one was. What the meeting does for the alcoholic proselytizing does for the fundamentalist."

Not slipping are you, lil? Off the wagon into reason and rationality?
PX,

In answer to your question, quite certainly in your mind I reckon. In my mind no.

As for this excerpt and the entire piece, I will let it lie. If your rational mind tells you it is the truth I won't get in your way.

lil

[lastinline]

lastinline:
TKK,

God uses the gospel as the means of communicating man's fallen state and the redemptive plan that he put into place to the unregenerate (those who are dead in sin). While I have a human compassion for the unsaved people that I meet and speak with (in realtime or cyberspace) my reason for speaking of Christ is to be obedient to God. Of course, if I thought that it was within myself to save others I would absolutely not ignore anyone (even JVR would do that for others). But the fact is, while God commands the church to preach the gospel, the power to call and convert rests solely with God. Of course there are Christians that don't agree with that, and they will tell you that you have to decide to accept Christ. But that isn't what the Bible says.

Why am I here? I am obeying the command to preach the gospel. As he was quoted earlier, God has said that, "he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy." But please remember, that for those who aren't shown mercy, there is no injustice. Justice is served when they receive the wages for their sin.

It's obvious that you aren't being sarcastic.

lil
I suggest you heed the words of jesus and never ever have sex:

19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
KMISHO,

Can you clue me in on which of the three categories you would base that suggestion on? Because, frankly, I don't see myself in any of the three.

lil

[Choobus]

lil,

Funny you mention God's commands. She just sent me a telegram commanding you to give up some anal. When are you stopping by?
JimVonRamen,

You seem to be channeling Choobus. Get thee to a priest for a first-class exorcism, post haste!

The Kenosha Kid
Choobus cannot be channeled. The power of anal is felt by many, and choobus is only one of the disciples of ASS

[lastinline]

TKK,

God uses the gospel as the means of communicating man's fallen state and the redemptive plan that he put into place to the unregenerate (those who are dead in sin). While I have a human compassion for the unsaved people that I meet and speak with (in realtime or cyberspace) my reason for speaking of Christ is to be obedient to God. Of course, if I thought that it was within myself to save others I would absolutely not ignore anyone (even JVR would do that for others). But the fact is, while God commands the church to preach the gospel, the power to call and convert rests solely with God. Of course there are Christians that don't agree with that, and they will tell you that you have to decide to accept Christ. But that isn't what the Bible says.

Why am I here? I am obeying the command to preach the gospel. As he was quoted earlier, God has said that, "he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy." But please remember, that for those who aren't shown mercy, there is no injustice. Justice is served when they receive the wages for their sin.

It's obvious that you aren't being sarcastic.

lil
lil,

Thank you for explaining your position. Although I strongly disagree with the basis for your beliefs, I have great respect for them. Others will argue with the specifics of your religion, and, I must admit, I probably will too, if you stick around. However, it is clear that you have compassion for others, which, in my view, is one of the best qualities a person can have. At this point, I think that I will simply agree to disagree, and wish you the best.

The Kenosha Kid
I appreciate that and I'd say the same to you. Thanks.

lil

[kmisho]

lastinline:
TKK,

God uses the gospel as the means of communicating man's fallen state and the redemptive plan that he put into place to the unregenerate (those who are dead in sin). While I have a human compassion for the unsaved people that I meet and speak with (in realtime or cyberspace) my reason for speaking of Christ is to be obedient to God. Of course, if I thought that it was within myself to save others I would absolutely not ignore anyone (even JVR would do that for others). But the fact is, while God commands the church to preach the gospel, the power to call and convert rests solely with God. Of course there are Christians that don't agree with that, and they will tell you that you have to decide to accept Christ. But that isn't what the Bible says.

Why am I here? I am obeying the command to preach the gospel. As he was quoted earlier, God has said that, "he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy." But please remember, that for those who aren't shown mercy, there is no injustice. Justice is served when they receive the wages for their sin.

It's obvious that you aren't being sarcastic.

lil
I suggest you heed the words of jesus and never ever have sex:

19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
KMISHO,

Can you clue me in on which of the three categories you would base that suggestion on? Because, frankly, I don't see myself in any of the three.

lil
You say you follow the bible. I am suggesting that if you really do then you should never have sex.

[lastinline]

I suggest you heed the words of jesus and never ever have sex:

19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
KMISHO,

Can you clue me in on which of the three categories you would base that suggestion on? Because, frankly, I don't see myself in any of the three.

lil
You say you follow the bible. I am suggesting that if you really do then you should never have sex.
kmisho,

There is no commandment in Matt 19:12 for me to not have sex. There are three categories of men listed by Jesus that (when viewed in context with the preceding passage) should not be married. Are you saying that I fall into one of those categories? Because the first is definitely not the case...I've got children. The second isn't (and hopefully never will be) the case either. And the third category is voluntary.

Or is there some hidden meaning to your suggestion? Help me out here...

lil

[lastinline]

Lil,

Your posts so far seem to assume that any athiest would accept the bible as a reliable source of information. If you believe that is the case, please state the reasons you think the bible is a reliable source of information?
Jay,

Actually I don't believe that any athiest would accept the bible as a reliable source of information.

I believe that you would deny it.

I believe it.

One of us is wrong.

We should both be willing to examine our positions and look at all the evidence in order that we might either validate or invalidate our beliefs. That is, of course, if we both desire to move closer to the truth. This is my desire and I daily attempt to do just that as I am sure that you do as well. So if you can tolerate the verses that I bring up maybe you'll find something in one of them that strikes a chord. I don't know. And you might say something that strikes a chord with me.

As for the reasons that I believe in the bible....well, I guess go back and reread the posts in this thread, and for additional reasons, I'm sure they'll be surfacing as I post.

lil