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Modem Butterfly
10-07-2005, 03:57 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/there-is-no-god-and-you-_b_8459.html

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the world’s suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is -- and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness for no good reason at all.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities, or He does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If He exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: the biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world’s suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion -- to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions, and religious diversions of scarce resources -- is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.

GodlessHeathen
10-07-2005, 04:31 PM
I like Sam Harris a lot (as attested by my sig). This is an excellent article, and about what I would expect from him.

Philboid Studge
10-07-2005, 04:40 PM
Hey, Godless. Have you checked out TRA's interviews of Harris (http://ravingatheist.com/archives/2004/11/interview_with_sam_harris_part_1.php)?

Baphomet
10-07-2005, 11:52 PM
Yeah, this is great stuff.
They should have our kids read it in school along with all the religous litterature they make them read (soley for "historical purposes" of course)

evident_enigma
10-08-2005, 02:40 AM
Oorah! Great post, summary, and point.
ee

GodlessHeathen
10-08-2005, 03:06 AM
Hey, Godless. Have you checked out TRA's interviews of Harris (http://ravingatheist.com/archives/2004/11/interview_with_sam_harris_part_1.php)?
Not until you posted the link ;)

Most of the interview seems to concentrate on his dissertation on meditation in The End of Faith. I have never been someone who found a great deal of value in meditation. I'm not saying it isn't valuable and useful for some people, just not for me. I read that part of the book, but it didn't hold a great deal of meaning for me.

That was one of the issues I had with The End of Faith. It's almost like it's two separate books. The first 170 pages were one book, then he goes off on another tangent, and never really ties the two threads together.

However, having said that, I still really like the guy. He's saying things that need to be heard, but few are willing to risk saying. I have to respect that. And the fact that I agree with him is simply gravy.

AGENT-ADAIR
10-08-2005, 06:35 AM
If there is a god, what are the chances he died?

Baphomet
10-08-2005, 01:35 PM
Agent Adir Wrote:

If there is a god, what are the chances he died?
I think I mentioned in another post I saw god's smouldering corpse fall from heaven.

Purity
10-08-2005, 02:20 PM
Its 3:19 AM in Australia, so honestly i cant be botherd reading your lengthy intro. Although Yes there is no god and yes i do know it, anyone who dosn't is a fool... The chances are i agree with everything you said, but cant be too sure :)

Ciao.

Rat Bastard
10-08-2005, 02:35 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/there-is-no-god-and-you-_b_8459.html

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the world’s suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is -- and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness for no good reason at all.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities, or He does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil. Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If He exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: the biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world’s suffering at face value. It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion -- to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions, and religious diversions of scarce resources -- is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.
I feel it in my bones that you (well, Sam Harris, anyway) are right. The logic is impeccable. BTW, I saw an episode of PBS earlier this week, where chimps were chasing down fellow chimps and killing them. Looked just like any gang killing you could imagine. Watch a riot where people are getting chased down and killed, then watch the chimps. The similarities are chilling. If you don't believe we have a common ancestor after seeing that, you will never be convinced. My personal suspicion is that religion is an invention for controlling the masses, and a tool for channelling the innate violence of the human being for the user's own purposes. Else, why would so many people die in the name of a religion?

PanAtheist
10-08-2005, 04:53 PM
A beautiful article!
Thanks!

(Oh, and hey, GREAT TITLE!)