Taking the Bible Word for Word

[Baphomet]

Nowadays, I see many christians saying certain parts of the bible weren't meant to be taken litteralily... yet all of the myths are seen as actual historical events... so I have to ask you christians, do you really believe:

-That time space, matter, and energy were made when some guy spoke
-The world was made in six days and is only six thousand years old
-People came from dirt and a rib
-Social indecencies and moral corruption was caused by eating a fruit
-The principle of evil manifested as a talking snake
-An angel still gaurds eden
-That angels (who are spiritual beings) had sex with women and created a magical race of mutants called "nephilim"
-The source of all language derived from a group of people trying to build a tower
-EVERY animal in the world fit on a boat in a world wide flood
-Including dinosaurs
-That there are fire-breathing serpents called leviathans
-Talking donkeys
-Angels, demons, and wizards
-That a witch of Endor could raise the souls of the dead
-That the final battle will involve swords and chariots

I want to know, how much of these myths do you take as fact?

[Hacim Nosretep]

Careful, Baph, or they'll start screaming "hyperbole" and "contemporary transliteration" at you! At least, those Protestants who try to rationalize the bibbly will probably take this route. The thumpilicious ones, however, seem perfectly content to accept all of the above as literal fact, as long as they don't have to think about it very often or very deeply (insert appropriate allusion to 1984's "doublethink.") Oh, and the Catholics/Orthodox ppl need not worry about this particularly unpleasant - though very well assembled, props for that - chunk of pre-Enlightenment superstition. They of course, only need to worry about what the Holy Father tells them. I also like romantic talks and long walks on the beach, but only on a second date.

[Baphomet]

So what about it, christians? What's a metaphor and what isn't?

[JesusChrist]

They wont answer, because if you question their god he will slaughter you and damn you to eternal hell. Yep..he loves them alright

[Iconoclastic1]

If you meet someone who claims to be a biblical literalist, I suggest you ask to borrow whatever they happen to have in their wallet at the time.

Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

If they say no then you get to chide them for not following the teachings of Jesus.

[Sternwallow]

Iconoclastic1, I don't get nearly enough opportunities to chide anyone about anything so your suggestion is very welcome. Sadly, at the moment, there are only a very few literalists on the hoof nearby so I worry that they may become endangered or even extinct...with insufficient rapidity.

[Iconoclastic1]

Iconoclastic1, I don't get nearly enough opportunities to chide anyone about anything so your suggestion is very welcome. Sadly, at the moment, there are only a very few literalists on the hoof nearby so I worry that they may become endangered or even extinct...with insufficient rapidity.
Indeed, and I suspect asking them for all their money would create biblical metaphoricalists out of them double-quick, thereby aiding the extinction of their species.

[The Branch]

Nowadays, I see many christians saying certain parts of the bible weren't meant to be taken litteralily... yet all of the myths are seen as actual historical events... so I have to ask you christians, do you really believe:

1-That time space, matter, and energy were made when some guy spoke
2-The world was made in six days and is only six thousand years old
3-People came from dirt and a rib
4-Social indecencies and moral corruption was caused by eating a fruit
5-The principle of evil manifested as a talking snake
6-An angel still gaurds eden
7-That angels (who are spiritual beings) had sex with women and created a magical race of mutants called "nephilim"
8-The source of all language derived from a group of people trying to build a tower
9-EVERY animal in the world fit on a boat in a world wide flood
-10Including dinosaurs
11-That there are fire-breathing serpents called leviathans
12-Talking donkeys
13-Angels, demons, and wizards
14-That a witch of Endor could raise the souls of the dead
15-That the final battle will involve swords and chariots

I want to know, how much of these myths do you take as fact?
I took the liberty of numbering your points to make them easier to refer to.

1- Yes; shouldn't be too hard for someone who's abilities are limitless.
2- Not really; what is a day? A day is defined as how long it takes for the earth to spin once on its axis. Since there kinda wasn't an earth for the first few "days," I believe that the Bible is just refering to seven stages of creation, not actual days.
3- It's been proven that humans are mostly carbon, and what do you know? So is most everything else; it's certainly plausible.
4- Not the fruit itself, but the act of disobedience.
5- By the "principle of evil" you are undoubtedly refering to Lucifer, turned Satan. Lucifer was powerful and prideful enough to think he could challenge God, so I wouldn't put this beyond his abilities, either.
6- Yes. Why not?
7- This one was probably meant to be interpreted figuratively.
8- There was a language before they built the tower, was there not? :) I understand what you mean, but again, it is not the act itself that spawned language, but rather what the act symbolized: more disobedience.
9- I don't know how exactly it worked, but it did.
10- This one is just ridiculous. Scientific evidence has proven that dinosaurs have never coexisted with man. You guys should know that much.
11- In Job and in Psalms, the word leviathan is probably refering to a less fire-breathing lizard called a 'crocodile.'
12- Donkey, yes, but Donkey being used by God.
13- Angels and demons yes, but wizards no. Not in the sense we think of them.
14- I have no explanation for this one. That's a bizarre passage.
15- Probably archaic vocabulary; the meaning is still the same: there will be violence. Period.

[Iconoclastic1]

1- Yes; shouldn't be too hard for someone who's abilities are limitless.
Limitless? Does that include the ability to turn what is good into evil and what is evil into good? Could God make torturing the innocent for fun a goodly and virtuous act if he so desired to?

2- Not really; what is a day? A day is defined as how long it takes for the earth to spin once on its axis. Since there kinda wasn't an earth for the first few "days," I believe that the Bible is just refering to seven stages of creation, not actual days.
Funny, most objective readers might see this as evidence that the author had no knowledge that the earth even had an axis, let alone that the length of a day was determined by it.

3- It's been proven that humans are mostly carbon, and what do you know? So is most everything else; it's certainly plausible.
You and I apparently have vastly differing understandings of the word plausible. What makes this any more or less plausible than, say, the Yoruba creation myth in which Bumba, the creator, brings mankind and everything else into the world by vomiting them all up?

4- Not the fruit itself, but the act of disobedience.
Why have a tree at all if you already know your little creations are going to eat from it? Why not just punish them and "curse the world" to begin with?

5- By the "principle of evil" you are undoubtedly refering to Lucifer, turned Satan. Lucifer was powerful and prideful enough to think he could challenge God, so I wouldn't put this beyond his abilities, either.
Not quite, the name Lucifer in the bible is in referrence to a babylonian tyrant king. In other words, Lucifer is not the name of Satan.

6- Yes. Why not?
:lol:

7- This one was probably meant to be interpreted figuratively.
Just out of curiosity, how do you determine the literal bits from the figurative bits? Since the bible authors were constantly referring to mystical and supernatural happenings completely outside the realm of experience of the vast majority of mankind, you'd think they'd make an effort to separate the true stuff from the allegorical stuff; or at the very least clearly state which parts are which!

8- There was a language before they built the tower, was there not? :) I understand what you mean, but again, it is not the act itself that spawned language, but rather what the act symbolized: more disobedience.
How does building a tower imply disobedience?

9- I don't know how exactly it worked, but it did.
:lol:

10- This one is just ridiculous. Scientific evidence has proven that dinosaurs have never coexisted with man. You guys should know that much.
Hey what does scientific evidence have to do with religion?

12- Donkey, yes, but Donkey being used by God.
Apparently God is still making use of asses today.

[Coatsy]

Personally, I'm quite worried about this. It kinda scares me that people can take the Bible word-for-word literally as historical fact for hundreds of years, and when it receives undeniable criticism, they turn around and say, 'Well duh, it's metaphorical!'

[RenaissanceMan]

You know, for most christians, the bible could be an empty book except for one part in the gospels. The part that says:

"Make Jesus your personal saviour"
"Do not doubt the Holy Spirit, this is the only unforgivable sin"

Everything else is negotiable.

Christians are all "Jesus jesus, jesus..." Nothing else matters to them.

[Baphomet]

Branch, I have a question for you:

If the Nephilim were not meant to be taken litterally (even though the bible says they walked the earth), and Goliath was a Nephilim, but you're saying he's not real, but a metaphor, and then later David kills goliath... doesn't that make David a metaphor as well? But wait, wasn't jesus supposed to descend from David's line?

The bible really seems to imply that the Nephilim were real. Read the story about Goliath again.

[Philboid Studge]

One of the great Is-the-Bible-Literally-True? debates of all time took place on the lawn in front of the courthouse where the Scopes Trial was heard, between Clarence Darrow and William Jennings Bryan. It's here (http://www.civilcommotion.com/index.php?p=808), and it's definitely worth reading all the way through. The issues being argued are almost always in play somewhere in these forums.

A tiny sampling:

MR. BRYAN–I want him to have all the latitude that he wants, for I am going to have some latitude when he gets through.

MR. DARROW–You can have latitude and longitude. [Laughter]

JUDGE RAULSTON–Order….

MR. BRYAN–These gentlemen have not had much chance. They did not come here to try this case. They came here to try revealed religion. I am here to defend it, and they can ask me any questions they please.

JUDGE RAULSTON–All right. [ Applause ]

MR. DARROW–Great applause from the bleachers!

MR. BRYAN–From those whom you call “yokels.”

MR. DARROW–I have never called them yokels.

MR. BRYAN–That is, the ignorance of Tennessee, the bigotry.

MR. DARROW–You mean who are applauding?

MR. BRYAN–Those are the people whom you insult.

MR. DARROW–You insult every man of science and learning in the world because he does not believe in your fool religion.

[RenaissanceMan]

The Branch says:

2- Not really; what is a day? A day is defined as how long it takes for the earth to spin once on its axis. Since there kinda wasn't an earth for the first few "days," I believe that the Bible is just refering to seven stages of creation, not actual days.

No no... the Earth was created straight away BEFORE day one... it was the Sun that wasn't created for 4 days. Get it right.

[BookThrasher]

Why have a tree at all if you already know your little creations are going to eat from it? Why not just punish them and "curse the world" to begin with?
I think that deep down, God wanted us to surprise him.

Just out of curiosity, how do you determine the literal bits from the figurative bits?
Well, I addressed this in another thread: Taking the Bible literally is the default position. However, if this approach turns a passage into nonsense, don't take it literally.

But that of course only inspired ridicule from the onlookers.

Personally, I'm quite worried about this. It kinda scares me that people can take the Bible word-for-word literally as historical fact for hundreds of years, and when it receives undeniable criticism, they turn around and say, 'Well duh, it's metaphorical!'
I find it more scarier that you talk to people who are hundreds of years old.

and Goliath was a Nephilim, but you're saying he's not real, but a metaphor, and then later David kills goliath...
No...he's saying that Goliath was just a regular giant. (The word Nephilim doesn't even appear in the passage, as I recall.)

[RenaissanceMan]

Did anyone read the entire exchange between Bryan and Darrow? It's quite good. It's clear that Bryan had never read a book besides the bible, and yet conviently forgets what's in it and has to be reminded. Darrow just tore him up.

[Iconoclastic1]

Why have a tree at all if you already know your little creations are going to eat from it? Why not just punish them and "curse the world" to begin with?
I think that deep down, God wanted us to surprise him.
Omniscience, hello? According to most christian's omni-max description of God, he couldn't be surprised even if he wanted to. Is it your position that God is not omniscient?


Just out of curiosity, how do you determine the literal bits from the figurative bits?
Well, I addressed this in another thread: Taking the Bible literally is the default position. However, if this approach turns a passage into nonsense, don't take it literally.

But that of course only inspired ridicule from the onlookers.
Yeah because taking the Bible literally turns the whole thing into nonsense. Why isn't eternal life in heaven considered by any christian to be one of the metaphorical nonsensical bits? Or the self-ressurection of their god-man? Why is it only the passages that are seen as repugnant because they were written by a far more primitive society considered metaphorical?

What about levitical law? I don't think there's any lawmaker on the planet that would be stupid enough to make metaphorical laws. Either God wants disobedient children beaten to death, or else the bible is a crock of very pungent, steaming, oh-so-fragrant dung.

[BookThrasher]

Why isn't eternal life in heaven considered by any christian to be one of the metaphorical nonsensical bits? Or the self-ressurection of their god-man?
A few things, like the entire spiritual plane, are taken as axioms.

Why is it only the passages that are seen as repugnant because they were written by a far more primitive society considered metaphorical?

What about levitical law? I don't think there's any lawmaker on the planet that would be stupid enough to make metaphorical laws. Either God wants disobedient children beaten to death, or else the bible is a crock of very pungent, steaming, oh-so-fragrant dung.
Because most of what can be verified as history has been. So unless you want to take history books as metaphor, you'll just have to accept that people weren't very nice back than.

And OT laws:

1. Again, that's how things went thousands of years ago. They didn't fuck around, they just killed everyone that mildly disturbed teh peace.

2. As evidenced by the NT, God softened up quite a bit. Why don't you ask the Jews about OT laws, since they're the ones who don't have an in-text excuse to ignore them. Further, many of those were laws of Man, rather than laws of God. Not everything in scripture is doctrinal.

As for omniscience: I'd say it's an exageration. The way I view God is that he is much, much more intelligent than humans, to the point where his predictions are almost always accurate. Calling him omniscient is more like rounding up. As such, he can be hopeful.