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LogicMan
06-28-2005, 03:01 PM
In fact why it is inevitable!

For those who understand the axiom existence exists, and understand that something can not come from nothing (as nothing is an absolute) then there really is no mystery and certainly no need for our being to be tough to believe without magical intervention.

Because existence exists and it is the something that has always been and always will be (the only other alternative is absolute nothing) there has been an infinite amount of time for the circumstances to be just right for this seemingly hard to believe evolution. It will happen again and again because existence will never end. The make up of the universe will fluctuate as is it's nature any circumstances for such an existence as ours will come and go. Think of it like a big cosmic lotto game the will always be played. No matter how unlikely a situation seems it will come up. So next time a theist comes up to you and tells you you need to pray for a good after life etc., just ask them is it not good enough that you are one of the winners in the cosmic lotto, and not only that but you exist as a being who's brain is capable of functioning at a high enough (if you work at it) level to understand it all...so enjoy it

Rhinoqulous
06-29-2005, 09:32 AM
The only problem is that the statement "existence exists" posits "existence" as a general property that is "had" by things. You then have the problem of having an idea for a birthday present, say a new car, and your wife/husband/lobbyist gets you the car, but you get upset because the one they bought you isn't the one you were thinking of, because the car they bought you has existence (sorry for the loooong sentence). This also ties in with the old theistic argument that God exists because of the nature of perfection (where perfection and existence are both model properties of objects).

So in other words, "existence exists" is a pretty meaningless (non-truth functional) statement, which I've argued about with the objectivists and LogicMan before. Just trying to pick a fight (poke, poke).

Rhinoq

LogicMan
06-29-2005, 11:57 AM
Damn it I thought you were still over in the love doll forum! :D

Hmm I am not much for semantics. So how about existence is, or if there is consciousness there is existence.

Rhinoqulous
06-29-2005, 02:11 PM
"Existence is" is a tautology, so in contains no information as a statement. "If there is consciousness there is existence" has a problem, because theists could claim the necessity of God for the existence of the universe without a conscious mind to observe it (ahh, good ol' Berkley). Or do you mean something like cogito ergo sum, about the existence of the self? I doubt you can prove much about God's existence by making general statements about existence itself. But that's just my opinion. :)

Rhinoq

LogicMan
06-29-2005, 06:05 PM
Laughing...this is going right back into identity. Hmm is this why people call me an objectivist?

"Existence is" is a tautology
You are correct. You must forgive the slip as I said I am not much for semantics but rather the concept. That said that was very sloppy! :lol: As to the second example; admittedly not very good and not put into much of context. Rather consciousness is our first clue as to existence.
But this, however, is all a destraction from the concept of existence.

I doubt you can prove much about God's existence by making general statements about existence itself.
There is a bit more of a tease involved here then you might think...arrrrgh..will say no more. No not to make this into a game! Some things I will only discuss with certain people. A value exchange thing...nothing more.

Finally the hook "Why evolution is not hard to believe..." was for the theist who frequent this site...hence the word believe which is a word I do not like. It is was directly aimed at the absurd statement that evolution is absurd...just look at the miracle of birth yada yada statements and in the place of evolution they offer up magical beings who make everything er a magically. They say the former is hard to believe but the latter is not. I am affraid I find this more humorous than I should.

But noooooooo you had to jump back into the identity debate :lol:

Rhinoqulous
06-30-2005, 07:55 AM
I actually agree with most of your initial post, that evolution is not hard to believe. When you consider the time scales involved, as well as the size of the universe, it's no big surprise that life would arise naturally. Arguing against evolution based on odds is akin to stating that the odds of winning the lottery are small, but because someone does win the lottery, God must exist.

Hope this steers the thread back on track. :D
Rhinoq

LogicMan
06-30-2005, 07:06 PM
I actually agree with most of your initial post,
Ya I know. You are an aggressive poster. If you had issues with the fundementals of the original post you would have said so. :)

Hope this steers the thread back on track. :D
Rhinoq
It was not really important. It was mostly for others not directly involved here.