PDA

View Full Version : Public Schooling, who needs it.


Cap'n Awesome
07-20-2005, 04:32 PM
I know it will never ever ever happen. But we should abolish our public school system. What a giant waste of money that produces nothing but idiots year after year after year. How many people come out of 12+ years of this shit and can barely read. Most people who have some literacy learned basic reading skills from thier parents efforts and then learned to read by visiting a library or buying a book. How many people come out of school and think that the earth getting closer to the sun is what causes the seasons. I see nothing of value in this money trap at all. You could learn 100 times more watching the Discovery Channel. You could learn an equal amount watching porn and jerking off. (Prehaps more) Everyone I know who isn't a complete idiot learned stuff from thier parents, private school, or from reading books. 50 dollars worth of books would work better then this failed system. Libraries, or some other form of voluntary education would work better then this crap. You can force people to learn if they don't want to, so why waste Trillions of dollars trying?



Not to mention the idiotic god element that still infects our schools. I remember having a 4th grade teacher telling us that there wasn't absolute proof that the dinosaurs existed. And our taxes are paying for this person to brainwash our kids!! Throw the whole damn thing out and let people educate themselves.

alaspooryorick
07-20-2005, 04:56 PM
Wow, someone more cynical than me...

The fact of the matter, how many kids are going to voluntarily open a book that's not Harry Potter or watch the Discovery Channel instead of Nickelodian? Probably not many. I went to public K-12, and while I fully admit I learned a lot more from reading on my own and watching the history channel for a summer, the system has some benefits. At least public has some (if rather low) standards--I've got friends that went to private and were taught by people totally unqualified to teach in their respective fields.

Plus, guidance is really something necessary. I know that throwing a math book in front of me isn't going to teach me advanced calculus, and asking my parents isn't going to do anything either. Not to mention if it were up to me, I wouldn't ever learn anything beyond addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. I'm a proponent of a well-rounded education, and while public school may not provide the BEST education, it at least provides any.

As for parents, I know that my mom doesn't go around verifying all of her "facts" and would have gladly taught creationism if it were up to her. Plus, you have to consider all of the children who come from bad families and can't afford private school or can't spend their time (outside of mandatory schooling) learning. Yes, there are a lot of problems with a lot of public schools. However, abolishing it (a) will never happen, (b) probably wouldn't solve many problems.

Cap'n Awesome
07-20-2005, 05:20 PM
If they aren't going to voluntarily open a book, what makes anyone think that they are voluntarily allow themselves to be educated at great expense? They just mind numbingly sit there and wait for school to be over, or try to get layed. Am I wrong?

Not to mention if it were up to me, I wouldn't ever learn anything beyond addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.
I don't know you personally, but I would guess you underestimate how much you taught yourself. I credit, maybe, 2% of what I know to public education. I was immensely joyed to get out of that system. I know high schoolers today who barely have reading and writing skills, and they are A students in our system with 'standards' All the rest of the world is laughing at us because we are the least multi-lingual country on earth. Nobody knows any latin anymore. I wouldn't be so pissed off if I could see some, any skills that people graduate public high school with. They aren't there. Again, we are wasting trillions of dollars that people could spend themselves to educate thier children or themselves.

Plus, you have to consider all of the children who come from bad families and can't afford private school or can't spend their time (outside of mandatory schooling) learning.
Wouldn't freeing up 7 hours of time wasted in a day give them some time to learn something? Not to mention our libraries are 1000 times as cheap to maintain. If you are too lazy to go to a library to educate yourself, are you going to learn anything in school? Nobody in this country even knows who the prime minister of Canada is. 11% of students can't locate the United States on a map. More students in Japan can name the first US president then students in the United States can. In 1992 we spent 6000 dollars per student on education (Now it's alot more). What are we getting out of it?

At least public has some (if rather low) standards
I went to public K-12, and while I fully admit I learned a lot more from reading on my own and watching the history channel for a summer, the system has some benefits.
Wow, so worth it....

Sadly you are right, we were never abolish this awful system nor do I think, we will ever fix it.

WITHTEETH
07-20-2005, 05:45 PM
Abolish public schools? You can vote for it, but well just cancel eachothers vote out. Public schools can teach a lot, maybe you just didn't get what the best of what was there to offer. Public schools offer diverse cultures, people can socialize with many different people, unlike private schools which are typically based around religion or some conforming restriction. Public schools have taken a beating in the past years, loss of substantial programs, arts etc., teachers taking less pay, I think you are speaking as an outsider looking in and do not really understand what the real issues schools face today. You speak about parents but parents are not like they used to be. Some schools have NO parent support.
Do you think you'll leave this world a better place by abolishing public schools? Living standards will go down, great minds lost, and youll just have to pay back that money you gained by paying more to the police because of the rise in crime.
I think its selfish to try and abolish public schools. Do you have any kind of empathy for children?

Just because a system doesn't work the way you like it doesn't mean we should destroy it, we should work harder to fix it.

ocmpoma
07-20-2005, 05:52 PM
Actually, the public school system works admirably. The problem is, it was designed to create a functionally literate populace that is prepared to work in factories on a regimented time schedule, not to prepare students for universities.

Switch25
07-20-2005, 06:19 PM
I think the problem today with Amerian kids is that we tell them what to do and practically wipe their ass for them. I do agree with you Cap'n Awesome on how some kids just tend to sit there in school and don't do crap. However we shouldn't just abolish schools entirely but improve on them like WITHTEETH said. How would you guys improve on the school system if it was your choice?

WITHTEETH
07-20-2005, 06:38 PM
How would you guys improve on the school system if it was your choice?
- Switch

The community and parents has to be more supporting to help give a positive push to teachers and their own children. Pay attention to legislature and politics more carefully so not to cut programs uncounciously.
Summers should not be off. When children come back after break they forget much, I remember what its like.
Pay teachers more, Those kids are the future how about we invest in them. A general rule is you get what you pay for, and teachers get paid crap. They go through 5 years of college and raise our children literally.

Any comments, im curious to other opinions?

Crackerus Dadderus
07-20-2005, 06:53 PM
Actually it would be "simple" to "fix" the public school system.

Pattern each student's path through school exploiting their strengths and working on their weaknesses. (that would require more training for teachers and a hell of a lot more pay)

Accelerate the curriculum. There is no reason it should take 13 years to learn most of this stuff.

Teach students how to THINK - not just memorize.

Crackerus Dadderus
07-20-2005, 06:55 PM
We also need to get America out of this mentality that it's up to the school and teachers and everyone else to raise their kids. You're the parent - be the parent. It's YOUR job to instill values in your child. It's the teachers job to teach them facts.

Eminem said it best - apparently you ain't parents

Another brick in the wall
07-20-2005, 07:22 PM
I agree with most of what Capn has written. The most important factor in education is the diligence of the student.
You can have the best teachers in the world and go to the best schools in the world and not learn anything if you don't work. I'm in favor of more flexibility and local control of schools. I have mixed feelings about free public education. On the one hand, it's of government give-away program/social engineering project (which tend to be big wastes of money) but the US has been leading the world in technological development for decades. We must be doing something right. As for claims that foreign students are smarter, I'm pretty sure it's just a case of politicians trying to scare people into throwing more money at the problem. I'd like to see a greater focus on vocational training in public schools.

Nicole
07-20-2005, 08:16 PM
This could develop into a huge essay on the failure of the american school system so I'm going to put it in point form for easy reading....oh and I'm leaving for vacation and only have a bit of time to kill before I go.

1. Mass education is outdated as a concept.

2. The schools can not be responsible for education, physical fittness, cultural knowledge, hand holding and bloody lunches. If parents don't want to be responsible for their own children then they shouldn't have them.

3. Not all students need as much traditional education due to their interests and abilities. In Europe, students decide (after taking aptitude tests) whether to continue with traditional education or move to vocational.

4. School boards never have enough money due to government spending on well....you know the list of crap they spend it on.

5. Teachers are underpaid, overworked and blamed for everything that goes wrong because hiring standards have to be low in order to get anyone to do this horrible job.

If you can, keep your kids at home. Teach them to love learning. Schools kill that love the very first few years.

Cap'n Awesome
07-20-2005, 10:23 PM
This could develop into a huge essay on the failure of the american school system so I'm going to put it in point form for easy reading....oh and I'm leaving for vacation and only have a bit of time to kill before I go.

1. Mass education is outdated as a concept.

2. The schools can not be responsible for education, physical fittness, cultural knowledge, hand holding and bloody lunches. If parents don't want to be responsible for their own children then they shouldn't have them.

3. Not all students need as much traditional education due to their interests and abilities. In Europe, students decide (after taking aptitude tests) whether to continue with traditional education or move to vocational.

4. School boards never have enough money due to government spending on well....you know the list of crap they spend it on.

5. Teachers are underpaid, overworked and blamed for everything that goes wrong because hiring standards have to be low in order to get anyone to do this horrible job.

If you can, keep your kids at home. Teach them to love learning. Schools kill that love the very first few years.
Amen, or something.

TheSnake
07-20-2005, 10:38 PM
Here in Finland, we've got a public school system and in international comparisons of childrens learning results, Finnish kids have been the best or second in every subject tested and the best over all. I'd say that a public school system can work pretty well. Also it evens out economic differences as all children have an equal right and opportunity for education, regardless of the wealth of their parents.

Cap'n Awesome
07-20-2005, 10:40 PM
Abolish public schools? You can vote for it, but well just cancel eachothers vote out. Public schools can teach a lot, maybe you just didn't get what the best of what was there to offer. Public schools offer diverse cultures, people can socialize with many different people, unlike private schools which are typically based around religion or some conforming restriction. Public schools have taken a beating in the past years, loss of substantial programs, arts etc., teachers taking less pay, I think you are speaking as an outsider looking in and do not really understand what the real issues schools face today. You speak about parents but parents are not like they used to be. Some schools have NO parent support.
Do you think you'll leave this world a better place by abolishing public schools? Living standards will go down, great minds lost, and youll just have to pay back that money you gained by paying more to the police because of the rise in crime.
I think its selfish to try and abolish public schools. Do you have any kind of empathy for children?

Just because a system doesn't work the way you like it doesn't mean we should destroy it, we should work harder to fix it.
Well it's great that we can dump Trillions of dollars a year just so kids can socialize with people of other cultures. Please. You think that public school gives people a perspective on other cultures? How many public school graduates can name one fact about Bolivia? 1 percent, maybe. How many people walk out of them knowing a language they didn't know before they came in? 1 percent, maybe. What great minds are going to be lost? Public schools have such rediculously low standards, they hold back great minds from doing anything more then learning basic algerbra. Seriously, in one three quarters of low level college math, you are expected to learn more then you are in all math classes for 12 years. I'm curious where your claim that living standards will go down, and crime will go up from? People would still be able to go to college just the same, get the same real education. This is not meant to be in any way a knock on the American Colleges, which I think are fine institutions. (The people in them may be drunken morons, but that's aside the point) Also I'm curious as to what massive cuts you are talking about. This administration has made the largest increase in federal funding for public schools ever. (And I hate them for it) Link (http://edworkforce.house.gov/issues/107th/endgamekit/fsedbudget.htm)

I think its selfish to try and abolish public schools. Do you have any kind of empathy for children?
Yes, it is selfish, because it would make things better for me, yes I have empathy for the children, because it would make things better for them too.

I'm glad to see that a number of people on the board agree with me, or partly agree with me.

Crackerus Dadderus
07-20-2005, 10:54 PM
Actually Cap'n, I graduated normal high school with college calculus credit so you are wrong about low level college math teaching you more than you can learn in 13 years of school. While I was held back in learning, I wouldn't have been able to learn had there not been public school. I don't think I could've walked the 15 or so miles to the library it would've taken every day to try to learn on my own. And seeing as how I would've been ignorant, I wouldn't have known what to study.
I agree with Nicole. Her thoughts fit in with mine - accelerate the standard curriculum to a younger age and let the students choose their path after that.
The point is, basing all children with the same start in their path towards knowledge, you can only help the country. We need to continue trying to teach all kids to the same standards and keep increasing those standards as we progress. The more knowledge and learning that people undertake, the better our race will be as a whole.
And I'm sorry, but I'd prefer kids have to go to school with kids of other ethnicities, religions, etc. You wouldn't believe how much more ignorant the rednecks around me would be if they didn't have to attend school with anything but whites.

Cap'n Awesome
07-20-2005, 10:55 PM
Here in Finland, we've got a public school system and in international comparisons of childrens learning results, Finnish kids have been the best or second in every subject tested and the best over all. I'd say that a public school system can work pretty well. Also it evens out economic differences as all children have an equal right and opportunity for education, regardless of the wealth of their parents.
See, while normally, and no offense to you. I prefer to the policies of the United States to European countries. However on this issue if our public school system was half like thiers or Japans (Where students frequently pay money to go to school for an extra day), or like any other countries in the first world, It wouldn't make me so incredibly angry. You for example, I can wager, were taught muliple languages in elementary school. Here it is a disaster. Half the money goes to school sports, which provide nothing to anybody, nobody learns shit, and whenever anybody even suggests cutting anything or making some standards, they get relentless politically attacked. There is no choice for the student, who is just forced into trying to survive the bullshit. Why do you think 90% of kids hate school. As long as people like WITHTEETH are spouting happy horse-shit like. The community and parents has to be more supporting to help give a positive push to teachers and their own children. Pay attention to legislature and politics more carefully so not to cut programs uncounciously.
Then nothing will ever change. Lets pay attention to legislature and politics so we can more carefully cut away as much of the bullshit as we can.

I'd be greatful if prehaps, Snake, you could describe your public schools, your typical experience with them, how students respond to them, etc.

Cap'n Awesome
07-21-2005, 12:46 AM
Actually Cap'n, I graduated normal high school with college calculus credit so you are wrong about low level college math teaching you more than you can learn in 13 years of school. While I was held back in learning, I wouldn't have been able to learn had there not been public school. I don't think I could've walked the 15 or so miles to the library it would've taken every day to try to learn on my own. And seeing as how I would've been ignorant, I wouldn't have known what to study.
I agree with Nicole. Her thoughts fit in with mine - accelerate the standard curriculum to a younger age and let the students choose their path after that.
The point is, basing all children with the same start in their path towards knowledge, you can only help the country. We need to continue trying to teach all kids to the same standards and keep increasing those standards as we progress. The more knowledge and learning that people undertake, the better our race will be as a whole.
And I'm sorry, but I'd prefer kids have to go to school with kids of other ethnicities, religions, etc. You wouldn't believe how much more ignorant the rednecks around me would be if they didn't have to attend school with anything but whites.
Actually Cap'n, I graduated normal high school with college calculus credit so you are wrong about low level college math teaching you more than you can learn in 13 years of school
ummm, Ok, so lets say you were capable of doing some Algerbra in 8th grade. (Far later then people should be, yet far earlier then most people are) and by the time you were a high school senior you have gotten through a Calculus class. (Which most people haven't) That is still 5 years! If you start out at the lowest level possible in college, you are up to some Calculus in, at the very very latest possible, 5 quarters. So even starting Math as early as possible in high school and going as far as you can, compared to starting math as low as possible in college, and going as little as you have to, you still end up with, at the minimum the same level of math knowledge while saving more then 3 and a half years.

I agree with Nicole. Her thoughts fit in with mine - accelerate the standard curriculum to a younger age and let the students choose their path after that.
I agree also except that the Standard curriculum needs a major overhaul also, prehaps teaching some latin or greek. At the very least get everyone to be bilingual in something. Crunch our math system from taking 12 years to teach basic algerbra to taking 4 or 5 years and then giving students the option to progress further, etc etc

Will it happen?
No. So the best option, don't waste 35 hours a week of peoples lives, and let those motivated to do it themselves. Ultimately we are all only educated as far as we want to go anyway.

You are saying you were incapable of educating yourself? I seriously seriously doubt that. Unless you lived in one of the .01 percent of places in the United States where these things called Books were completely unavaliable. Have people lost all hunger for knowledge that they have to have it force fed to them? You didn't know what to study without being told? Again, books, you pick up a book, you read it, you learn stuff.

The more knowledge and learning that people undertake, the better our race will be as a whole.
Yeah ok, I agree with the statement, but your point is? The public school system is clearly not endowing people with that desire to undertake knowledge. It seems to barely be producing literate people. I can only cringe when a younger sibling of mine related the story, where they were studying a map of Asia, indentifying countries, and 5 out of the 30 or so people in the class were holding the map upside down because it didn't have labeling on it. (The point being that they had to label it themselves) It's almost unbelivable. Try asking teenagers what the first Amendment is. They don't know, they simply don't.

So stop pouring money into a broken system. Fix the system or get rid of it and let people control thier own lives.

Viole
07-21-2005, 07:51 AM
Actually, the public school system works admirably. The problem is, it was designed to create a functionally literate populace that is prepared to work in factories on a regimented time schedule, not to prepare students for universities.
I think this insightful comment by my esteemed colleague had somehow failed to get the attention it deserves.

Our school systems, as they stand, generally produce a bunch of idiots, a few intelligent, charismatic people, and a few intelligent nerds. It's neatly divided into managers, scientists, and thralls. Sports serve two functions; as a drain on funding(so it looks like the schools are doing something for the community), and a possible 'escape route' for talented young gorillas.

To save the system, it needs to be recentered around training and educating kids, not manufacturing workers. More personalized learning, directed at individual strengths. Better facilities, and less emphasis on sports. Pay teachers a decent wage. I'd also suggest making the kids work--as it stands, attending class is enough to get you a B, or even an A, if you pay attention. Base tests more on readings, with lectures as more question and answer sessions than anything. Try to make the homework interesting, rather than just work.

If you just scrap the whole system, you'll end up with most of society without even functional literacy, no foundation for critical thinking skills, and able to quote more bible passages than scientific theories.

Paradox
07-21-2005, 11:06 AM
I know it will never ever ever happen. But we should abolish our public school system. What a giant waste of money that produces nothing but idiots year after year after year. How many people come out of 12+ years of this shit and can barely read. Most people who have some literacy learned basic reading skills from thier parents efforts and then learned to read by visiting a library or buying a book. How many people come out of school and think that the earth getting closer to the sun is what causes the seasons. I see nothing of value in this money trap at all. You could learn 100 times more watching the Discovery Channel. You could learn an equal amount watching porn and jerking off. (Prehaps more) Everyone I know who isn't a complete idiot learned stuff from thier parents, private school, or from reading books. 50 dollars worth of books would work better then this failed system. Libraries, or some other form of voluntary education would work better then this crap. You can force people to learn if they don't want to, so why waste Trillions of dollars trying?



Not to mention the idiotic god element that still infects our schools. I remember having a 4th grade teacher telling us that there wasn't absolute proof that the dinosaurs existed. And our taxes are paying for this person to brainwash our kids!! Throw the whole damn thing out and let people educate themselves.
I couldnt agree with you more Cap'n Awesome. Leave it to the private sector to deal with education, now that the majority of people in industrialized nations realize they need it.

Cap'n Awesome
07-21-2005, 11:19 AM
Actually, the public school system works admirably. The problem is, it was designed to create a functionally literate populace that is prepared to work in factories on a regimented time schedule, not to prepare students for universities.
I think this insightful comment by my esteemed colleague had somehow failed to get the attention it deserves.

Our school systems, as they stand, generally produce a bunch of idiots, a few intelligent, charismatic people, and a few intelligent nerds. It's neatly divided into managers, scientists, and thralls. Sports serve two functions; as a drain on funding(so it looks like the schools are doing something for the community), and a possible 'escape route' for talented young gorillas.

To save the system, it needs to be recentered around training and educating kids, not manufacturing workers. More personalized learning, directed at individual strengths. Better facilities, and less emphasis on sports. Pay teachers a decent wage. I'd also suggest making the kids work--as it stands, attending class is enough to get you a B, or even an A, if you pay attention. Base tests more on readings, with lectures as more question and answer sessions than anything. Try to make the homework interesting, rather than just work.
If you just scrap the whole system, you'll end up with most of society without even functional literacy, no foundation for critical thinking skills, and able to quote more bible passages than scientific theories.
How is this diffrent from what we have now? I'm pretty sure most of society barely has functional literacy, no foundation for critical thinking skills, and are able to quote more bible passages than scientific theories. Seems to me we are wasting time.

(Although I agree with most of your points on how to improve schools, don't even get me started on the school sports rant, they do nothing for anybody, you want to play football? That's fine, do it with your own money on your own time, don't expect me to pay for it)

CFett
07-21-2005, 11:45 AM
Something a few have kinda gotten at, but,

Maybe public schools suck because the public sucks?


And privatization is only a cop-out, in any industry.
What you're basically saying is that because the gov't/public are unable to run a successful system with the public as a goal,
then the only answer is to give it to someone who's only desire is to make it work out of the desire to make money.
It's a disgusting, blameless way of looking at something. By allowing something to be privatized you're admitting that you believe it can work, you just don't want to fix it yourself.

And privatizing anything will only lead to a greater income gap, which only leads to bigger and bigger problems as time goes on.

RedRob
07-21-2005, 11:58 AM
Let me start with "I agree that there is a lot of problems with the public schools". However, how is getting rid of them going to fix the problem? I think fixing the school system would be the best solution, but I do think it would need some major work. Perhaps instead of invading other countries and spending billions of dollars on killing tools we can invest in our children. I guess no one would join the military once they are educated and no one would clean the privileged oligarchy’s bathrooms. I think that’s the real reason no one in our government wants to ‘really’ fix our public school system. Just your typical capitalist bullshit!

PS
I took calculus in (public) HS and have a BS in computer science. I’m currently going for a Masters in IT Management. Perhaps your views are a little exaggerated since there are plenty of people that get out of the PS system with valuable knowledge. And, yes sports in schools are crap, but a general gym class should be a part of the program.

PanAtheist
07-21-2005, 01:56 PM
I am from the UK, and my education came from state schools.
It was a mixed bag of course, but I am *very* grateful for the good bits.

whoneedscience
07-21-2005, 02:14 PM
I agree also except that the Standard curriculum needs a major overhaul also, prehaps teaching some latin or greek.
Umm... okay, that's a no. I've had both and the only advantage I got out of them was an inflated ego (though not necessarily a bad idea if it makes you love to learn more, even if it is necessarily elitist and wouldn't work on a mass scale). I agree we should teach languages as early as possible, and math as well. People take math way too seriously, English not seriously enough, and manage to suck at both.

WITHTEETH
07-21-2005, 02:50 PM
Just because a system doesn't work the way you like it doesn't mean we should destroy it, we should work harder to fix it.
Well it's great that we can dump Trillions of dollars a year just so kids can socialize with people of other cultures. Please. You think that public school gives people a perspective on other cultures? How many public school graduates can name one fact about Bolivia? 1 percent, maybe. How many people walk out of them knowing a language they didn't know before they came in? 1 percent, maybe. What great minds are going to be lost? Public schools have such rediculously low standards, they hold back great minds from doing anything more then learning basic algerbra. Seriously, in one three quarters of low level college math, you are expected to learn more then you are in all math classes for 12 years. I'm curious where your claim that living standards will go down, and crime will go up from? People would still be able to go to college just the same, get the same real education. This is not meant to be in any way a knock on the American Colleges, which I think are fine institutions. (The people in them may be drunken morons, but that's aside the point) Also I'm curious as to what massive cuts you are talking about. This administration has made the largest increase in federal funding for public schools ever. (And I hate them for it) Link (http://edworkforce.house.gov/issues/107th/endgamekit/fsedbudget.htm)
I did not mention colleges once.
Living standards will go down because education will go down. It happens everywhere you go. They've done many studies also on how crime goes up when people have a poor education. Areas with little money also have more crime, and an education helps bring more money in.
How is it possible for school systems to get more money but still cut programs you ask? how about no child left behind. Give the teachers more work, less time and more focused on certain areas. in my county there are barely any music programs, art, and 2 schools just closed. Bush still underpaid Michigan for his program he is forcing on everyone. Michigans governor also cut more money. No child left behind is squeezing the system.
So just for conversation if you want to privatize school, would you want it mandetory?

alaspooryorick
07-21-2005, 03:13 PM
Reading back through some of your comments, I ask, is it necessary that intelligent people know Latin and Greek or can locate Bolivia on a map? If you're going to be a classics scholar or be a diplomat or cartographer, maybe. But I'm pretty sure a doctor can save a patient's life without knowing Ancient Greek. I'm also pretty sure that a computer scientist can make a successful program without knowing where Bolivia is.

You talk about how awful it is that so many public schooled kids don't know these things, but high school education is, as Rorty suggests, a step towards the practical, ordinary, needs of becoming "good citizens," whereas college is to develop the mind further. After high school, kids can go to college to enhance their education, or enter the workforce. The sad fact of the matter is that not every child is going to go to college, and that preparation for the work force is a somewhat crucial step: wasting a kid's time with learning to read Ovid is of far less benefit than learning accounting.

I do think it's a damned shame that some of these "higher-minded" pursuits aren't available at every public school, but as you yourself said, you can't force this stuff on people. Privatizing isn't going to solve everything--I know plenty of private schooled kids that my ego believes I'm better educated than, and then again, I know plenty of public schooled kids whose potential was stifled because of a bad school. I had some great teachers at my public school--there are some good, and some bad....just like some private schools, some parents, and some students. Laying all the blame on public school is near-sighted.

I say, cut athletic and extra-cirricular funding until a school can offer honors or AP classes.

God, my arse
07-21-2005, 03:19 PM
I know it will never ever ever happen. But we should abolish our public school system. What a giant waste of money that produces nothing but idiots year after year after year. How many people come out of 12+ years of this shit and can barely read. Most people who have some literacy learned basic reading skills from thier parents efforts and then learned to read by visiting a library or buying a book. How many people come out of school and think that the earth getting closer to the sun is what causes the seasons. I see nothing of value in this money trap at all. You could learn 100 times more watching the Discovery Channel. You could learn an equal amount watching porn and jerking off. (Prehaps more) Everyone I know who isn't a complete idiot learned stuff from thier parents, private school, or from reading books. 50 dollars worth of books would work better then this failed system. Libraries, or some other form of voluntary education would work better then this crap. You can force people to learn if they don't want to, so why waste Trillions of dollars trying?



Not to mention the idiotic god element that still infects our schools. I remember having a 4th grade teacher telling us that there wasn't absolute proof that the dinosaurs existed. And our taxes are paying for this person to brainwash our kids!! Throw the whole damn thing out and let people educate themselves.
umm.... what country are you in? I have been to both private and public schools and I have found the facilities in private schools better but the teachers morons... maybe because I went to religious private schools I don't know

Philboid Studge
07-21-2005, 03:26 PM
umm.... what country are you in? I have been to both private and public schools and I have found the facilities in private schools better but the teachers morons...
Are we all dealing with the same usage here? I'm pretty sure The Cap'n means definition 2. (this from m-w.com)

Main Entry: public school
Function: noun
1 : an endowed secondary boarding school in Great Britain offering a classical curriculum and preparation for the universities or public service
2 : a free tax-supported school controlled by a local governmental authority

WITHTEETH
07-21-2005, 03:31 PM
They are giving a a general education yes, with hopefully a taste of everything. Alot of the teachers that do these extra curricular activities are doing it during there own time(atleast where i live).
As a child with a mind like a blank slate, i would want to know as much as possible of the world around me. Theres a big picture going on and if your cutting programs then im limited on my experienes. Remember the world is filled with possibilities of what a person can be. The earlier they are exposed to their talents the farther ahead can be.
I remember my private school. Athletics was a joke, Art was non existant, and culture was in the bible.

God, my arse
07-21-2005, 04:22 PM
This could develop into a huge essay on the failure of the american school system so I'm going to put it in point form for easy reading....oh and I'm leaving for vacation and only have a bit of time to kill before I go.

1. Mass education is outdated as a concept.

2. The schools can not be responsible for education, physical fittness, cultural knowledge, hand holding and bloody lunches. If parents don't want to be responsible for their own children then they shouldn't have them.

3. Not all students need as much traditional education due to their interests and abilities. In Europe, students decide (after taking aptitude tests) whether to continue with traditional education or move to vocational.

4. School boards never have enough money due to government spending on well....you know the list of crap they spend it on.

5. Teachers are underpaid, overworked and blamed for everything that goes wrong because hiring standards have to be low in order to get anyone to do this horrible job.

If you can, keep your kids at home. Teach them to love learning. Schools kill that love the very first few years.
are you talking about Home schooling??? ahh no kid would want that. I mean yeah lets hang out with your parents 6 hours a day 5 days a week with no other kids. (note: tone of sarcasm on last sentence)

Crackerus Dadderus
07-21-2005, 04:50 PM
ummm, Ok, so lets say you were capable of doing some Algerbra in 8th grade. (Far later then people should be, yet far earlier then most people are) and by the time you were a high school senior you have gotten through a Calculus class. (Which most people haven't) That is still 5 years! If you start out at the lowest level possible in college, you are up to some Calculus in, at the very very latest possible, 5 quarters. So even starting Math as early as possible in high school and going as far as you can, compared to starting math as low as possible in college, and going as little as you have to, you still end up with, at the minimum the same level of math knowledge while saving more then 3 and a half years.
I know people that did the minimum math in college and only ever got to algebra - so where are you getting your information from? And I'd like to see you tell a five year old to go into the library and study up. The reality is parents don't do enough or don't have enough time to do enough to start their kids on the right track. You really think a 5 year old would rather study up on math or play with his action figures?
My point on everyone learning being better for society is simple, so I'll break it down for you. If we provide a public school system(an improved one - not the one you're bitching about) it can only help our society get better.
And yes books are available almost anywhere in the country - I suppose you're going to lend your services to drive everyone to the library to study.
If we changed the system we have and started producing better students who in turn keep the cycle going, would you still be bitching that everyone should make good use of their library card?

Cap'n Awesome
07-25-2005, 01:11 AM
ummm, Ok, so lets say you were capable of doing some Algerbra in 8th grade. (Far later then people should be, yet far earlier then most people are) and by the time you were a high school senior you have gotten through a Calculus class. (Which most people haven't) That is still 5 years! If you start out at the lowest level possible in college, you are up to some Calculus in, at the very very latest possible, 5 quarters. So even starting Math as early as possible in high school and going as far as you can, compared to starting math as low as possible in college, and going as little as you have to, you still end up with, at the minimum the same level of math knowledge while saving more then 3 and a half years.
I know people that did the minimum math in college and only ever got to algebra - so where are you getting your information from? And I'd like to see you tell a five year old to go into the library and study up. The reality is parents don't do enough or don't have enough time to do enough to start their kids on the right track. You really think a 5 year old would rather study up on math or play with his action figures?
My point on everyone learning being better for society is simple, so I'll break it down for you. If we provide a public school system(an improved one - not the one you're bitching about) it can only help our society get better.
And yes books are available almost anywhere in the country - I suppose you're going to lend your services to drive everyone to the library to study.
If we changed the system we have and started producing better students who in turn keep the cycle going, would you still be bitching that everyone should make good use of their library card?
I'm just taking it from the general ed requirements of the college I go to, which requires you to have at least one calc class. I belive most colleges are that way, unless you are talking a two year degree.

If we changed the system we have and started producing better students who in turn keep the cycle going, would you still be bitching that everyone should make good use of their library card?
Absolutely I wouldn't complain if government did education right. Do I think they are ever going to? No. I've never seen government do anything right. This is not free education, we pay for it, and with our national debt, our grandchildren will still be paying for it. It doesn't do any good. They are just going to make it more expensive by adding worthless feel good programs year after year after year. I wouldn't have to volunteer my time to drive people to the library, because those who were motivated enough, who had some thirst for learning would get themselves there. You can't forcefeed education on people, do we really want to spend all this money to produce factory workers for a country that doesn't need factory workers?


(I realise that we are never going to Abolish public education either, but yelling about how stupid it is makes me feel better)

Cap'n Awesome
07-25-2005, 01:30 AM
So just for conversation if you want to privatize school, would you want it mandetory?
Absolutely not, I don't think the government should force people to spend thier money where they don't want to, even if it is for educating thier kids. The government has no right to tell anyone how to spend thier money, unfortunately they have made up the right to take your money and throw you in jail if you don't give it to them, to spend it on all kinds of rediculous programs. If a 16 year old decides he no longer needs school, why not let them not go? Of let people test out of high school. I know lots of people who could have passed the GED at 14 (And know infinately more who will never be able to pass it.) Why force those people to go to school? To sit in the same classrooms as people who don't know if a map of Asia is upside down or frontside up?

Philboid Studge
07-25-2005, 04:59 AM
Actually, the public school system works admirably. The problem is, it was designed to create a functionally literate populace that is prepared to work in factories on a regimented time schedule, not to prepare students for universities.
Alas, Toyota doesn't seem to think so (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/25/opinion/25krugman.html).

'But last month Toyota decided to put the new plant, which will produce RAV4 mini-S.U.V.'s, in Ontario. Explaining why it passed up financial incentives to choose a U.S. location, the company cited the quality of Ontario's work force.

What made Toyota so sensitive to labor quality issues? Maybe we should discount remarks from the president of the Toronto-based Automotive Parts Manufacturers' Association, who claimed that the educational level in the Southern United States was so low that trainers for Japanese plants in Alabama had to use "pictorials" to teach some illiterate workers how to use high-tech equipment.

But there are other reports, some coming from state officials, that confirm his basic point: Japanese auto companies opening plants in the Southern U.S. have been unfavorably surprised by the work force's poor level of training.

There's some bitter irony here for Alabama's governor. Just two years ago voters overwhelmingly rejected his plea for an increase in the state's rock-bottom taxes on the affluent, so that he could afford to improve the state's low-quality education system. Opponents of the tax hike convinced voters that it would cost the state jobs.'

Revmonkeyboy
07-25-2005, 07:22 AM
I am enjoying the conversation, but I have been to a private christian school. That is the WORST option for education. I think that privitizing the schools is rediculous. We fight tooth and nail to keep the bible thumpers from running our schools, and some of you want to LET them teach our children? If I had children I would not want them SOB's near my child.
I agree that public schools are in bad shape, but at least some claw their way up from there. The students I met at the christian school couldn't claw their way out of a paper sack.
I believe that teachers make the school. I had a few really good ones that turned me around early on. Kids in their classes were having too much fun learning to watch the clock. Most of our teachers do not even like the subject they teach, and are not fully educated in that subject. I think that a teacher should love his/her subject or not teach.

I have more to say but must go.
revmonkeyboy

Bighead
07-25-2005, 07:38 AM
...All the rest of the world is laughing at us because we are the least multi-lingual country on earth. Nobody knows any latin anymore.....
While I agree that our education system is extremely lacking, I have one objection to your comments. We are the least multi-lingual country on earth perhaps, but there are more reasons for that than just being lazy. One of the reasons Europeans speak so many languages is because there are so many small countries with completely different official languages, and they have to be able to speak multiple languages to get anything done. Native speakers of English don't really need to learn a foreign language to get things done as most of the industrialized world speaks it. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it just is. The reasons they all speak English is partly because of the British empire, and then partly because America is such a big player on the world market and in political events....again, I'm not saying it's good or bad, it just is...

The rest of the world is going to laugh at us anyway....they'll always find something...just like Americans can always find something about every other culture to laugh about...if every american learned 2 foreign languages, they wouldn't laugh at us for not being able to communicate with another person in a different language, they'd laugh at us for not being able to stop our politicians from doing things that the majority really doesn't want them to do...or something else...they're will always be something....

So anyways...I disagree with basing education on the amount of languages the average citizen can speak...

But Americans are still stupid in general.

calpurnpiso
07-25-2005, 07:59 AM
Bighead wrote:

"But Americans are still stupid in general. "

Hmm..have you ever seen a country controlled by religious-psychotics where the vast majority of its population is infected with this neurological aberration that isn't stupid?..after all faith, which is always inversely proportional to knowledge and information, fuel their brains impeding the perception of reality......:)

ocmpoma
07-25-2005, 08:03 AM
Alas, Toyota doesn't seem to think so.
Well, I suppose I should have said "...a functionally literate (by 19th century standards) populace that is prepared to work in factories..."

bobfritzelpuff
07-25-2005, 08:26 PM
Finally, people who think like me. I thought I was just biased because I was in school and am bored out of my mind. Through public school, I learn nothing, yet I am top in my class. I learn what I want outside of school- outside of school I got a friend to teach me how to build a computer, I taught myself visual basic programming and am working on teaching myself java.
Personally, I see the school system as a factory designed to make people ready to work at mcdonalds and contribute (unresisting) to a corrupt capitalist society. When I wrote my exam paper on this, the teacher called me a terrorist.

School really does not teach us anything substansial- I doubt anybody can still do advanced math or knows any science material 10 years after getting out of school. That is, if they understood in the first place. Most people I debate about this with agree that school really does not teach us much that we will remember or that we need to know, and answer with 'it gives us a foundation for learning' or 'it teaches us to learn'. This is bullshit- three year olds are developing faster than us teenagers are, we need no more guidance in learning than they do. We don't tell three year olds that they have to be walking by 18 months or we are sending them back to one year old- we let them take things at their own pace. They learn by expirmenting, by touching and licking everything in sight. If we let children loose, and provided ample sources of knowledge, they would do the same thing as three year olds- learn what they want to learn. If they don't want to learn it, you can't teach them anyway- they will forget within a weak.

Granted, schooling is required at a young age- to teach basic math and reading skills. But these could be taught by parents, just like speach. The rest is either useless or would be best picked up by the child on their own, without huge cost to taxpayers.
There is more I could say on the subject, but this rant has gone on long enough.

"I won't let my schooling get in the way of my education"- Mark Twain

NihilistThug
07-25-2005, 10:27 PM
Literacy rates were better before public schools, monkeys.
Learn some history and economics, NOW.

Public education is indoctrination for the masses and jobs for useless idiot 'teachers' with a bullshit 'education' degree.

GodlessHeathen
07-25-2005, 11:11 PM
Most people I debate about this with agree that school really does not teach us much that we will remember or that we need to know, and answer with 'it gives us a foundation for learning' or 'it teaches us to learn'. This is bullshit
I agree. Public schools are set up to teach people what to think, not how to think.

ChiefOfAss
07-26-2005, 04:52 AM
If a 16 year old decides he no longer needs school, why not let them not go?
For the same reason abortion needs to remain legal: It reduces crime (no joke).

ChiefOfAss
07-26-2005, 05:03 AM
Literacy rates were better before public schools, monkeys.
Learn some history and economics, NOW.

Public education is indoctrination for the masses and jobs for useless idiot 'teachers' with a bullshit 'education' degree.
WOW - you are so tuuuuuuf.

Since you're the one asserting that literacy among the general population got lower AFTER people started learning how to read, I'd really like see you try to back that statement up.

Oh, and... of course the teachers in our public schools, by and large, are idiots compared to the teachers in non-public schools. Maybe it's different where you live, but the only private schools that come to mind (with RARE exception) are religious schools.

Where's the Non-Sacred Heart High School in your neighborhood?

ChiefOfAss
07-26-2005, 05:52 AM
Maybe somebody already said this in the gazillions of threads here, but the U.S. is an incredibly DIVERSE population. What's more, we encourage diversity...

Liberty: The only True American Value - is the cause for all the trouble we have getting everybody to git edukaited. No Child Left Behind, remember?

I'd rather not trade my liberty for a smarter nation. But, if YOU would, there's always Japan, Germany, or China. It's a helluva lot easier to get consistent results from a population when everyone's the same.

It's also easier to get the results you want when you limit the opportunity of certain groups of people based on certain indicators. I wonder how many of the people posting here would have ended up stamping out cogs in a factory if youdda been born somewhere else.

There's also a reason that the Edison's, Carver's, Doolittle's, Hawking's and Gate's of the World come from HERE - and nowhere else.

Well, I'm sure there's lots of reasons, but surely one reason is that the State doesn't (yet) mandate that we ship people off to the slag pile the first time they get a C on a test.

The public school system, in my opinion, is... by complete accident... a perfect system whereby individuals can get more from it than the sum of its parts if they so choose. Of course there's the dull-middle... where most of our doctors and lawyers come from... and, for individuals who's parents were too broke from tithing to pay for an abortion, at least we have a good set of prints and dental records for the prosecution to use later.

bobfritzelpuff
07-26-2005, 11:29 AM
Ok, don't get me started on No Child Left Behind. Its the dumbest idea since the NSRE's. Do they honestly think idiotic tests are a good representation of our abilities?

And, I don't know about where you live, but up here the teachers of private schools are dumbasses as well. I have been to many differant schools, public and private, and the only teacher I found that wasn't a dumbass was a public teacher (who, coincedentaly, is leaving for a private school this year. I am going to his good-bye party tomorrow.)

ChiefOfAss
07-26-2005, 11:43 AM
Oh, and... of course the teachers in our public schools, by and large, are idiots compared to the teachers in non-public schools. Maybe it's different where you live, but the only private schools that come to mind (with RARE exception) are religious schools.

Where's the Non-Sacred Heart High School in your neighborhood?
Maybe I was too subtle? I was trying to point that the alternative to public school is a religious school. I wasn't really saying public school teachers are dumbasses (not any more less than what is to be expected for what we pay them).

As the Great Rev. Jesse Jackson would say, "Irr-regardless and but yet and still..." our kids are better off taking their chances in public schools than going to some religious school.

In public school, a kid can make of it what they will of themselves. In some God School, children have to learn *something* of religion... even if only to pass a test.

alaspooryorick
07-26-2005, 01:30 PM
The problem with high school teachers is, this:

Very few people that enter the field genuinely want to do that and are the best people to teach the subject. I've had a few great teachers who loved the subject they taught and were fully qualified. But then my street law teacher was a complete douche bag who wasted away his college experience smoking pot and stealing fire hydrants, and didn't know anything. The problem is, a lot of "average" or below students go to college to fuck around and when it comes time to plan the rest of their lives, they decide they'll teach high school.

Most people who really love the subject pursue teaching at the college level, but there are a few exceptions.

ChiefOfAss
07-26-2005, 01:49 PM
And.... that's related to public school how? That's just a commentary on the condition of the profession as a whole. The enfant that started this thread was questioning the purpose of public schools on principle.

alaspooryorick
07-26-2005, 05:14 PM
And.... that's related to public school how? That's just a commentary on the condition of the profession as a whole. The enfant that started this thread was questioning the purpose of public schools on principle.
I answered on the public school part twice specifically, if you read through the entire thread. The teacher comment is that it's not just public schools that are going to have shitty teachers. Others were saying that public had worse teachers than private, which is true in some cases, but my point was the entire system wasn't producing exceptional teachers as a whole.

Another brick in the wall
07-26-2005, 06:29 PM
Not all private schools are religious. I'm sure there are some secular ones, or ones that are only nominally religious. Most parents cite better discipline as the reason they sent their children to private schools.