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-   -   Evolution: Gender Cannot Be Explained (http://ravingatheists.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14637)

Mog 07-04-2008 09:18 AM

Quote:

Missionary wrote (Post 503960)
It's evidence of a phenomenon that science can't explain away with evidence and secular social sciences can only guess at.

Its a phenomenon that religion does an even poorer job explaining.

Single Serving Jack 07-04-2008 09:20 AM

Quote:

Missionary wrote (Post 503960)
It's evidence of a phenomenon that science can't explain away with evidence and secular social sciences can only guess at.

Not really. Evolutionarily speaking it's pretty easy to see how belief in a deity may have arisen and how it was beneficial. It's all about seeing agency and intention in perfectly natural events. Thus arises superstition which evolves into religion. Daniel Dennett has written extensively about it and calls for more scientific investigation into religion in his book Breaking The Spell. Hopefully that will happen.

Choobus 07-04-2008 09:21 AM

Quote:

Mog wrote (Post 503964)
Its a phenomenon that religion does an even poorer job explaining.

The only thing religion explains are religious people.

Irreligious 07-04-2008 09:29 AM

Quote:

Missionary wrote (Post 503960)
It's evidence of a phenomenon that science can't explain away with evidence and secular social sciences can only guess at.

I don't think science is bothering to explain away all the various religions of the world. What would be the point of that?

However, you are aware that there are some dedicated individuals out there investigating the phenomenon of religious belief, aren't you?

Missionary 07-04-2008 09:30 AM

This is an interesting post...

Quote:

Single Serving Jack wrote (Post 503948)
The Big Bang timeline only goes back so far, beyond that we simply don't know. If it did have a cause, it certainly doesn't follow that God caused it -

This has been ruled out how exactly? You may reply, "lack of evidence", but then you posit the following...

Quote:

Single Serving Jack wrote (Post 503948)
it may have been the result of a collapse of a previous universe, just one in an infinite series of Big Crunches & Bangs, or the result of multi-dimensional branes colliding, or one of who knows how many other theories. I believe there are all sorts of strange theories attempting to explain how something could indeed come from nothing,

Hypothetical theories? How can you rationally embrace certain specific unknowns while rejecting other unknowns? Can you logically support such a behavior without considering prejudice, predisposition, or bias?

Quote:

Single Serving Jack wrote (Post 503948)
not that I could tell you anything about them. Or it may be something we'll never figure out.

The point is we don't know. What I do know is if God can be uncaused, so could the universe.

So you admit that you don't know, you claim to require evidence, and embrace hypothetical speculation and conjecture??

That can ONLY make sense if bias is introduced.

Choobus 07-04-2008 09:32 AM

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g1...s9/Franker.jpg

Single Serving Jack 07-04-2008 09:35 AM

Mish you are such an embarrassing tool. How is it possible to interpret my post in any other way than WE DON'T KNOW?

I don't know. You don't know. WE DON'T KNOW.

You need to learn how to read fucking English.

Choobus 07-04-2008 09:36 AM

sometimes an image is the only way to get through to his rotting syphilitic "brain"

Lily 07-04-2008 09:39 AM

Quote:

Single Serving Jack wrote (Post 503948)
AFAIK we certainly don't know the universe was not uncaused. The Big Bang timeline only goes back so far, beyond that we simply don't know. If it did have a cause, it certainly doesn't follow that God caused it - it may have been the result of a collapse of a previous universe, just one in an infinite series of Big Crunches & Bangs, or the result of multi-dimensional branes colliding, or one of who knows how many other theories. I believe there are all sorts of strange theories attempting to explain how something could indeed come from nothing, not that I could tell you anything about them. Or it may be something we'll never figure out.

The point is we don't know. What I do know is if God can be uncaused, so could the universe.

SSJ: Don't make me laugh! Multiverses and all that nonsense are elaborate fairy-tales to get around the worry that there really might be God at the beginning of it all. Now, as I think is obvious but I did not state it in so many words, God is a postulate. There must, logically, be an uncaused cause. An infinite regress of causes cannot explain the existence of anything.

I came across a really interesting quote from Hawking recently. He said (I am trusting my source that he really said this): “Even if there is only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? The usual approach of science of constructing a mathematical model cannot answer the question of why there should be a universe for the model to describe.”

This is a peculiar mistake of scientists (some of them) to think that if they can describe something with a mathematical equation, they’ve explained it. Hawking at least realizes this is not the case, nor even the right way to approach the question. Atheists simply say you can explain it all without any need for God but, of course, they haven't and can't. Long experience here suggests that at bottom the idea of God is so repugnant, that 40 angels polishing your test tubes and telescopes would not occasion anything other than the response: "we’ll keep trying, thanks very much".

Even I can't do anything more!

Missionary 07-04-2008 09:39 AM

Quote:

Irreligious wrote (Post 503975)
I don't think science is bothering to explain away all the various religions of the world. What would be the point of that?

The point is materialism.

"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen."


Quote:

Irreligious wrote (Post 503975)
However, you are aware that there are some dedicated individuals out there investigating the phenomenon of religious belief, aren't you?

Only for the purpose of assigning a scientific reason or explanation so as to explain away God. Once a definition can be agreed upon, atheists will cry with glee as they point to some news article.

Single Serving Jack 07-04-2008 09:45 AM

Quote:

Lily wrote (Post 503982)
SSJ: Don't make me laugh! Multiverses and all that nonsense are elaborate fairy-tales to get around the worry that there really might be God at the beginning of it all.

Now you sound like Missionary. That's an insult btw.

Quote:

Lily wrote (Post 503982)
There must, logically, be an uncaused cause. An infinite regress of causes cannot explain the existence of anything.

Explain to me why the universe itself can't be the uncaused cause.

Choobus 07-04-2008 09:45 AM

Quote:

Lily wrote (Post 503982)

This is a peculiar mistake of scientists (some of them) to think that if they can describe something with a mathematical equation, they’ve explained it.

Similarly, theists often make the mistake of conflating their own belief system with whatever it is that is missing from such a scientific approach (and make no mistake, most scientists understand that this is so). Yes, there are unanswered questions in science, possibly even unanswerable ones, but this in no way leads to man made fictions like Islam, scientology or Jesus . They (theists) think that if something is not understood, they've explained it (with god).

Irreligious 07-04-2008 09:45 AM

And, Missionary, for all of your blather, you have not established in any concrete way the existence of a creator God. Let us not forget that. You've assumed it, asserted and imposed it on the natural world. You haven't even coherently defined it. It is an utterly elusive thing that you're peddling here. It is inconcrete. It belongs entirely to the realm of faith, which is internal. Its alleged external existence cannot be objectively supported. That's why you're spinning your wheels here.

Missionary 07-04-2008 09:47 AM

Quote:

Single Serving Jack wrote (Post 503980)
Mish you are such an embarrassing tool. How is it possible to interpret my post in any other way than WE DON'T KNOW?

I don't know. You don't know. WE DON'T KNOW.

You need to learn how to read fucking English.

Correct. You, we, they don't know the mechanism, principles, particles, forces involved. Therefore you ascribe weight to SOME explanations and contempt for others depending upon what exactly?

Identify the criteria by which you accept or reject statements and determine plausibility.

I'm suggesting, that of you're honest with yourself, you will admit a prejudice and bias against a Creator for no other reason than you don't want to even consider what He may want or require of you since you would obviously have been created by Him.

Lily 07-04-2008 09:48 AM

Quote:

Choobus wrote (Post 503988)
Similarly, theists often make the mistake of conflating their own belief system with whatever it is that is missing from such a scientific approach (and make no mistake, most scientists understand that this is so). Yes, these are unanswered questions in science, possibly even unanswerable ones, but this in no way leads to man made fictions like Islam, scientology or Jesus . They (theists) think that if something is not understood, they've explained it (with god).

Nope. You are wrong. :o

I don't need no stinkin' God of the gaps arguments to ground my beliefs. I have been dropping logical pearls all over the forum today. I leave it to you to refute them. I am already exhausted. (ADT has already started...)


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