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Am I missing some deeper point you were trying to draw out? |
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I think it’s true however that such a discovery would be threatening to the Calvinistic understanding of total depravity because it shows that there is something inherent in human nature that longs and desires to do good (which has always been the Catholic understanding). My point was not that all people calling themselves Catholic/Orthodox would have a perfect understanding of the theology, but that at the least, most people calling themselves Christian consider themselves part of a group(s), that from a theological stance, would have no problem with the mechanics that the article points out. I was trying to address Mog (and others) comments that theologians would fear this kind of thing. It’s just a silly claim for the most part. Quote:
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If they call themselves Christians, I am not the one to judge if they are 'true' Christians or not. Nor am I going to call into question their motives and reasons for calling themselves such. That's between them and God. Many a Catholic I have known was a cultural Catholic for many years only to later have a deepening of their faith to what an outsider might consider 'serious' levels. Again, it's not for me to judge their level of Catholicity, but neither is it for you to do so. |
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Mog’s point was about theologians being fearful. My point was that this is not so for Catholics and Orthodox, and that the vast majority of folks claiming to be Christian fall into those two bodies. I didn’t claim that the vast majority would be able to even attempt to explain the workings of grace. I don’t mean to belabor it, but you claimed I was being inaccurate, and I still don’t see it? I want to be careful because I’ve seen a lot of claims of dishonesty being thrown about lately that from where I stand have more to do with misunderstanding than truthfulness or accuracy. |
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Wouldn't that be more accurate? That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to give you a hard time. "The vast majority of Christians believe that..." is not accurate. "The Catholic and Orthodox churches teach that..." is accurate. And you weren't really talking about theologians. You specifically stated believers. |
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Again, it may seem to be belaboring the point, but this happens more often than not round these parts. Someone says something that may not be as precise as it should be, and instead of asking for clarification, accusations of dishonesty, or claims of inaccuracy are made. Here's what I did say... The vast majority of Christians are either Catholic or Orthodox (though in the U.S. that's often easy to forget), and both of those groups [Catholicism and Orthodoxy] hold to the belief that grace builds upon nature. In other words, this is exactly what a person should expect to find…that the brain is wired in a way that sheds light on what we already know by showing us how the mechanics of things work. I did not say what the vast majority of Christians believe. I said what the vast majority are (or identify themselves as), and that the teaching of the two bodies to which they claim to belong are threatened by this. I definitely can see how this was not clear from my original post, and that is further evidenced by the fact that Phil misunderstood me as well. But whereas Phil asked for clarification (and I gave it), you put down the claim of inaccuracy. I want to suggest that this is what happens way to often here, especially with Lily. Someone either says something imprecise, or says it precisely but is misunderstood and then accusations start flying. |
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But first of all, you left out your preceding sentence, so you're kind of taking yourself out of context. :P Quote:
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The fact that Lily would never even admit that she posted an unclear statement, nevermind admitting when she is actually wrong, makes this a completely different situation than with you. Even though most of us don't agree with your beliefs, you have a lot of people's respect, probably because of your honesty and lack of condescension, which is obviously not the case with Lily. |
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This is standard theistic bullshit. 'There are billions of us! And we all believe as I do! Therefore we are right." When in reality, the zealots, like you and Lily, are a tiny minority of "All Christians" Even the phrase "Grace builds upon nature" is complete crap. It only includes 'nature' to give it a ring of authenticity, when in fact, 'grace' is built entirely on philosophy. It doesn't matter if you follow Thomism, Augustinianism, Molinism, Congruism, or Syncretism... none of it builds upon nature. I suggest that the phrase "Grace builds upon nature" is really just a catch phrase designed to fool "jose six pack" into believing that there is actually a connection between miracles and the natural world. |
Is nobody here going to define that cryptic phrase: Grace builds upon nature? Is this just a poetic way of saying "Godidit?"
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Thanks, SteveG for speaking up for me! But I want to assure you that it is as unnecessary, as it is appreciated. A fair number of folks here don't care much about honesty or actually hearing out someone who doesn't agree with them. Renaissanceman and nkb just made that clear, yet again. Who knows what they fear? That something like real conversation might ensue? That they might actually learn something?
Well, I know this is the Raving Atheists forum but raving about what doesn't actually exist, shaking your fist in the face of straw fundies ... isn't that mental illness? Mog? |
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