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-   -   Argument to satisfy atheistic and theistic sensibilities (http://ravingatheists.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17049)

nkb 03-31-2013 07:42 PM

Could we have just nipped this whole argument in the bud by pointing out that point #2, as presented by Andrew, is absolute nonsense?

Saying the premise of God has explanatory powers is the same as saying that my farts may be keeping the universe from self-destructing has explanatory powers.

So, congratulations, out of 6 points, you managed to get half of one right. Your mommy must be very proud.

Andrew66 03-31-2013 10:15 PM

Quote:

Michael wrote (Post 672915)
You have shown now, over at least two different threads, that you have absolutely no idea what atheists think. .

And how do you know? You state repeatedly that Atheists all have differing views and opinions and that I cannot therefore speak for them or assert a viewpoint on their behalf - so how can YOU claim now that YOU know what Atheists think.?


Quote:

Michael wrote (Post 672915)
*"The positive belief god definitely does not exist" is a very rare idea, that most atheists - myself and most on this site included - do not hold. .

I agree - because the assertion is obviously foolish. But if I said that you would cry "how do I know" but then when you say it it is perfectly fine.

And who cares anyway - your BS is imaterial to the subject matter at hand, and you make it unnecessarily hard to have any kind of meaningful and respectful dialogue.

Andrew66 03-31-2013 10:27 PM

Quote:

Michael wrote (Post 672917)
Upon reflection, I've come to think that you probably won't grasp at the nuances in my post, so I will break it down a little. My point was two-fold:

1) Saying something offensive and then adding "no offence!" to it does not remove the offensiveness of the statement, nor does it absolve you from saying offensive things. You don't want to offend people? Don't say offensive things. Rather, adding that to the end shows that you knew your statement was offensive enough to go to the effort of telling people "no offense" but did not care about those people enough to not actually offend them. That in itself is offensive.

2) You don't actually understand what atheism is. There is no such thing as "capital Atheism" and "lower-case atheism". There are atheists with differing ideas about gods, some DO even go so far as to say "I am absolutely certain that a god does not exist", but a lot - myself included - see the idea of a god as simply unnecessary, as such until sufficient evidence is given, there is no need to believe in one. We do not "hope" for a god to be true and could not make ourselves do so. For you to think that an omnipotent god would be fooled by our pretending to hope they existed is ridiculous.

Hi Michael
With regards to (1) You are right about it being totally rude to say an offensive thing and then saying no-offence after. I sort of realized that when I wrote it (in fact its actually one of my pet peaves), but was just too lazy to rewrite the sentence. My appologies.

2) I actually do understand what Atheism is. I understand that some may be considered as strong Agnostics (who believe there is unlikely a God, or have a simple lack of belief in a God do to lack of evidence) and others - as you seem to agree from your other thread more rarely - hold the most positive and extreme belief that there is no God. Was I wrong?

However I think (with all do respect) that you are over speaking for your compatriots when you state
Quote:

Michael wrote (Post 672917)
We do not "hope" for a god to be true and could not make ourselves do so .

. This is clearly an assumption on your part (how do you know what all Atheists think?? - are you there chief spokesperson) and I don't at the moment at least accept it.

Andrew66 03-31-2013 10:42 PM

Quote:

dogpet wrote (Post 672918)
Because a hope for anything other than the celestial pillow would be just as viable, while not enabling liars on earth who gain influence & money from peddling invisible afterlifes.
We've had a few on here trying to encourage cristain enablement. To me it's the lowest form of missionary work, & that makes it pretty low. Hang your head in shame.

All I can say is that just because some abuse the desire many individuals have for the HOPE in God (eg. promissed afterlife etc.), this has no barring on whether there is any truth to an assertion that God exists. God either exists or not, irrespective of how the world conducts its affairs relating to the issue.

Having said that, I do see your point that if God doesn't exist, then peddling the concept may dupe indivdiduals to get hooked into religion, and once indoctrinated they may start to donate money (and that would be a shame). However I suspect you may agree that the write to free speach and write to practice religion in our country seems to trump the right to shield people from religion (unless you lived in the old USSR under Stalin, or Naxi Germany under Hitler).

Michael 03-31-2013 11:44 PM

Quote:

Andrew66 wrote (Post 672925)
2) I actually do understand what Atheism is. I understand that some may be considered as strong Agnostics (who believe there is unlikely a God, or have a simple lack of belief in a God do to lack of evidence) and others - as you seem to agree from your other thread more rarely - hold the most positive and extreme belief that there is no God. Was I wrong?

That's better. None of the A/a malarky next time, please. I would also - if I had to find objections - bring up that you appear to be carefully wording to make it appear as though the margin of "agnostic" atheists and "gnostic" atheists are much closer to each other than they are.


Quote:

However I think (with all do respect) that you are over speaking for your compatriots when you state . This is clearly an assumption on your part (how do you know what all Atheists think?? - are you there chief spokesperson) and I don't at the moment at least accept it.
I do not know what all atheists think. I know what the atheists think who have told me what they think, and I know what I as an atheist think.

When someone attempts to represent atheists as thinking something that goes against what I know myself and others think as atheists, then I can object to that.

My usage of colloquial "we", in this case was perhaps not the best choice. If I'm going to have at you for misleading rhetoric, it's only fair I hold myself to the same accord.

ILOVEJESUS 04-01-2013 02:54 AM

Quote:

Andrew66 wrote (Post 672910)
Why hope there is a God?

I"m sure you'll agree that one of the strongest drives we humans have is to survive. Unless you are presently suicidal - you want to live. I think most would agree - death - which on a naturalistic view means the ends to one's very existence (no more sex, drugs and rock and roll!!) -sucks.

So how do we escape death?. At present with science and medicine we can't. At least I think avoidance of death (by replacing body parts etc. - or storing one's essence in a computer when our bodies give out) is likely not going to happen in our generation, and even if it does - only the very richest of us may afford to pay for the service!

It just so happens that drastic claims were made by key individuals at select times throughout - namely Jesus Christ and his apostles, and others such as Mohammed. Basically they stated that they had reveiled communication from God (that alleged powerful entity defined as the creator of the universe) which addressed the concerns of a promissed afterlife.

I'll just cite three such key claims - which have been historicaly recorded.

John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life".

John 11:25-26 "Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die"

Mark 16:15-16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

So in case you've been sleeping at the wheel, its these types of claims (as irrational as they appear - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence after all) which have driven billions upon billions of people to religion! People want to escape death - and these claims (or similar claims like these), are at present humanities only presented HOPE to do so!

My only point on this blog is to point out that I recognize that it is unfair to ask a rationale person to believe in God (such as the above three testimonies mandate to achieve an afterlife), as a belief in God - without evidence of God's existence - is irrational.

That is why I suggest that it might be OK to just HOPE that God exists (as HOPE is the weakest form of belief) - thus satisfying - to a bare minimum - the religious mandates.

Which God to believe in? - very hard question. Basically - if you place any weight in religious historical claims which have achieved great impact factor, its between The Christian God Jehovah (along with God's Son Jesus Christ - and the Holy Spirit of God - they are professed work as a team called the TRINITY) and the Muslim God Allah.

Both Christians and Muslims accept the historical records contained in the BIBLE as the holy inspired word of GOD.

This is shit and you know it. If you don't know it then you have at least been given a heads up!

ILOVEJESUS 04-01-2013 02:56 AM

Quote:

nkb wrote (Post 672922)
Could we have just nipped this whole argument in the bud by pointing out that point #2, as presented by Andrew, is absolute nonsense?

Saying the premise of God has explanatory powers is the same as saying that my farts may be keeping the universe from self-destructing has explanatory powers.

So, congratulations, out of 6 points, you managed to get half of one right. Your mommy must be very proud.

Tell me more about these farts of yours......?

Kinich Ahau 04-01-2013 04:58 AM

Quote:

Andrew66 wrote (Post 672926)
God either exists or not, irrespective of how the world conducts its affairs relating to the issue.

Ooh, looks like we're heading towards the 50/50 argument. Yippee!

Davin 04-01-2013 07:50 AM

What happens if the god that exists is a god that doesn't want people to hope that a god exists and will send people to be BBQ'd for all eternity for being gullible to shitty arguments?

Andrew66 04-01-2013 09:51 AM

Quote:

Davin wrote (Post 672937)
What happens if the god that exists is a god that doesn't want people to hope that a god exists and will send people to be BBQ'd for all eternity for being gullible to shitty arguments?

Hi Davin

Nice to hear from you.

Interesting you ask that. I had dinner with my sister yesterday (a devout Christian, totally believes a God exists and that the Bible is the revieled word of God) and I told her that maybe God, to be fair to the rationaly minded people (who just can't accept that a God exists do to lack of evidence), would forgive such people if at least they could make the statement at judgement that they "hoped" God would exist.

I knew in advance what her reaction would be. She gave me that strained - questioning / not quite buying it look and stated that while she was pleased that this may open a door way for Atheists, I must be careful not to compromise the teachings of scripture. I presume she meant that she was at least suspcious that "belief" (the term used in scripture) was a bit more than "hope".

My reply was that one way to check was to really examine the earliest records of the statements made by the Apostles which are in Greek and Hebrew - to really examine the translated term "belief" to see if HOPE was included as a possible interpretation. I also mentioned that at Church's I've attended - including at a funeral I attended recently, the Christian minister stated that we will see our loved one in the afterlife, as this is the HOPE of Christians. Indeed - in churches you often see the word HOPE interchangeable with FAITH and BELIEF.

But in addressing your question, what to do if you meet up with a God at judgement and you say "I hoped you existed" and he/she is not satisfied with that and hence sends you to hell.

Well - I wouldn't worry - you can't make yourself believe in something without evidence (so it wouldn't be your fault that you didn't believe) - so in my view such God not accepting of your Hope statement would not be worth hanging out with. But for me, I believe that if God does exist he would be fair, so the HOPE statement, if said honestly, should suffice.

Also, I suspect that most professed Christians and Muslims alike, while they say they believe, only really HOPE because no one can know for sure God exists. Having said that, Christians claim that the HOLY SPIRIT can provide them with absolute "knowledge" to God existence - which of course further confuses the issue.

Davin 04-01-2013 11:58 AM

Quote:

Andrew66 wrote (Post 672938)
Hi Davin

[Useless and boring rant...]

But in addressing your question, what to do if you meet up with a God at judgement and you say "I hoped you existed" and he/she is not satisfied with that and hence sends you to hell.

That is not the question I asked. I asked what if the god that exists is a god that will send you to hell for hoping or believing in a god or gods.

Quote:

Andrew66 wrote
[More useless things that seem to be based on a reading comprehension failure.]


Andrew66 04-01-2013 12:47 PM

Quote:

Davin wrote (Post 672940)
That is not the question I asked. I asked what if the god that exists is a god that will send you to hell for hoping or believing in a god or gods.


There is imaginably a God who would disaprove of a person believing in him irrationally for lack of compelling evidence.

I doubt that such God would however be offended if you merely hoped for him to exist, as merely hoping for the truth in something without compelling evidence is not irrational.

If you met a god that would send you to hell for merely hoping in him, that aint no god (more likely Satan or a demon pretending to be God). You are probably in Hell already! Ha Ha :thumbsup:

Davin 04-01-2013 01:24 PM

Quote:

Andrew66 wrote (Post 672942)
There is imaginably a God who would disaprove of a person believing in him irrationally for lack of compelling evidence.

I doubt that such God would however be offended if you merely hoped for him to exist, as merely hoping for the truth in something without compelling evidence is not irrational.

If you met a god that would send you to hell for merely hoping in him, that aint no god (more likely Satan or a demon pretending to be God). You are probably in Hell already! Ha Ha :thumbsup:

Based on what? You not thinking it likely just because, isn't very compelling. I'd also like to know where your knowledge comes from about the proposed god, how can you say that the god won't do such a thing?

Smellyoldgit 04-01-2013 10:34 PM

Andrew has mastered the art of the 'rectal pick' - most of his nonsense is plucked straight from his arse.

Andrew66 04-02-2013 10:21 AM

Quote:

Davin wrote (Post 672943)
Based on what? You not thinking it likely just because, isn't very compelling. I'd also like to know where your knowledge comes from about the proposed god, how can you say that the god won't do such a thing?

Hi Davin

Firstly I'm in agreement with you that there is no compelling evidence that a God (i.e. personal creator of our universe who offers us a means to afterlife salvation) of any sort exists, and it thereby takes a leap of faith to believe (or even just hope) that any sort of God exists.

For the sake of argument (assuming God's existence), the basis of determining the qualities of God comes from another leap of faith that such God revealed himself to humanity. So we (as a best guess) turn our attention to the reveared historical documents where claims about God, based on alleged revelations from God (written as non-fiction) have been recorded throughout history.

Now of course there are many claims, each describing differing Gods so which one should one place there hope in.? To me, an important aspect is impact factor. It makes sense at least to me that IF a God bothered to reveal himself , then the stories or teachings contained in such revelations would have such powerful memetic concepts that such concepts would survive and proliferate.

Based on this, it is likely that the teachings of the Christianity or Islam would be the most likely. I doubt the Moonies (small minority religious sects) have it right.

Both Islam and Christianity state that a condition of having favor with God - such as to inherit a desirable afterlife - is a Belief in such God. I am not aware of any teachings (accept the holy scriptures of Davin with the Raving Atheist Forum), which ever suggest a God would favor individuals who were Atheists.

So in Summary

1) A belief in God's existence - based on the writings of reveared religious historical documents with high impact factor yields -> desirable afterlife.
2) A disbelief in God existence - based on the writings of reveared religious historical docuemtns with high impact factor -> no desirable afterlife.
3) A mere hope that God exists - based on the writings of reveared religious historical docuements with high impact factor -> maybe desirable afterlife.

That's why I'd like to look into the original Hebrew and Greek words of the Torah and new Testiment documents (reveared documents with high impact factor) which have been translated in English to match the term "believe" to see if Hope may be within the scope of those words.


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