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-   -   Who Is Crazier? YECs or Holocaust Deniers (http://ravingatheists.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13796)

Professor Chaos 11-15-2007 02:03 PM

EDIT: My bad, misread NPN's post.

Noprayersneeded 11-15-2007 02:29 PM

Quote:

nkb wrote (Post 451129)
The majority of the extermination camps were in Eastern Europe, especially the big ones like Ausschwitz and Treblinka. But, there were some in Germany too. In fact, one of the more famous ones now, because it is a museum just outside of Munich, is Dachau. It was miniscule compared to the big ones, but they had their own little gas chamber and crematorium.

Clarify something for me, please. Are you a Holocaust denier, or are you saying that the numbers were embellished?

I don't think there were gas chambers where thousands of people were gassed at once and then cremated. I think there were deaths but not nearly as many as claimed. Now I got real upset the first time I heard someone I thought had their head on straight say those things, I always accepted the holocaust story. So I started reading and I'm a details kinda person, which is why I first started questioning the bible, and until someone can prove to me that the number of people they claimed were killed every day in the gas chambers, then hauled up an elevator(with ropes and pullies) and then cremated(even though modern day ovens can't cremate that many people that fast)can happen, I'm going to doubt the official story. I'd also like to understand more about the gas used.

On dachau http://forum.codoh.info/viewtopic.php?t=2313 I haven't been to that site in awhile and am having trouble finding some of the old threads I remember. Sorry to point you right back to that site, but I'd just be repeating it anyway.

Here you go chaos
Quote:

The overall number of victims of Auschwitz in the years 1940-1945 is estimated at between 1,100,000 and 1,500,000 people. The majority of them, and above all the mass transports of Jews who arrived beginning in 1942, died in the gas chambers.
http://www.auschwitz.org.pl/new/inde...b=stale&id=395


I can't get the video to work. I was going by what's in the article.
Quote:

How many Jews were murdered during the Holocaust?

Answer: While it is impossible to ascertain the exact number of Jewish victims, statistics indicate that the total was over 5,860,000. Six million is the round figure accepted by most authorities.

3. How many non-Jewish civilians were murdered during World War II?

Answer: While it is impossible to ascertain the exact number, the recognized figure is approximately 5,000,000. Among the groups which the Nazis and their collaborators murdered and persecuted were: Gypsies, Serbs, Polish intelligentsia, resistance fighters from all the nations, German opponents of Nazism, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, habitual criminals, and the "anti-social," e.g. beggars, vagrants, and hawkers
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...6quest1.html#3"

5 + 6= 11 million, so like I said the 17 million victims would also include those that were still alive at the end of WW2.

nkb 11-15-2007 02:39 PM

So, what is the number of deaths that you think is accurate?

I'm assuming that you are talking about a more in-depth analysis of the gas (Zyklon B)used by the Nazis than what something like Wikipedia would offer.

baconeatingatheistjew 11-15-2007 02:54 PM

I guess I read things wrong. The Nazi archives gives the fate of the 17 million who were victims of nazi persecution and put in forced labour camps.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4988378.stm

That doesn't mean 17 million died.

Noprayersneeded 11-15-2007 02:55 PM

I'm not sure. If the Totenbuch the Nazis kept is real, then it's several million.

baconeatingatheistjew 11-15-2007 02:56 PM

Generally, I find those who question the Holocaust have no estimation of Jews who were murdered, except for the ones who say a few Jews died of typhoid.
But then again they've done the research.

nkb 11-15-2007 03:01 PM

Quote:

Noprayersneeded wrote (Post 451172)
I'm not sure. If the Totenbuch the Nazis kept is real, then it's several million.

Well, then it's kind of a moot point, isn't it?

If you don't deny the Holocaust, but only question the exact number of millions killed, which part pisses you off?

Here are some questions that still puzzle me from your earlier post:
1. What was the purpose of inflating the numbers?
2. If they were mistakenly inflated, what is the purpose of continuing to stick with them, 60 years later?
3. Why was it necessary to torture the responsible Germans to admit to the 6 million number?

nkb 11-15-2007 03:04 PM

Also, as far as the Totenbuch, Germans are notoriously meticulous, and it doesn't surprise me that they kept good records of the people they were killing.
However, as the war was turning, I seem to remember reading somewhere that they felt the need to accelerate the "Final Solution", and therefore may have foregone the record-keeping, as that would have slowed things down.
That could account for quite a large number, especially since the concentration camps were in full swing by then.

Noprayersneeded 11-15-2007 03:34 PM

Quote:

nkb wrote (Post 451175)
Well, then it's kind of a moot point, isn't it?

If you don't deny the Holocaust, but only question the exact number of millions killed, which part pisses you off?

Here are some questions that still puzzle me from your earlier post:
1. What was the purpose of inflating the numbers?
2. If they were mistakenly inflated, what is the purpose of continuing to stick with them, 60 years later?
3. Why was it necessary to torture the responsible Germans to admit to the 6 million number?


Well for me, it's that I can accept that people died of sickness and disease, that some were shot execution style, I'm sure some died on the train cars. The gas chambers and similar stories just seem uber EVIL.

Why inflate the numbers?
From what I've read there's something about the figure 6 million. I'll quote from the one thread at codoh.
Quote:

In 1919, Felix M. Warburg, was the Chairman of the Joint Distribution Committee of American Funds for Jewish War Sufferers. He was reporting that “The Jews were the worst sufferers in the war”..... “The successive blows of contending armies have all but broken the back of European Jewry and have reduced to tragically unbelievable poverty,starvation and disease about 6,000,000 souls, or half the Jewish population of the earth.’ He went on to say “For more than four years the war on the Eastern front was fought largely in the centers of Jewish population” and that “after the cataclysm of the last few years it is too much to expect this Jewry to become self-sustaining in a short twelve-month.” [New York times November 12, 1919.}
Edward M.M. Warburg, his son, was the Chairman of this same committee during World War 2.

Dr. Chaim Weizmann (who went on to be president of Israel in 1948) president of the World Zionist Organization on November 25th, *** 1936 *** declared the: "6 million" number to be symbolic of the Jewish destiny. [Source: Chaim Weizmann: Reden und Aufsatze 1901-1936. jud. Bucherverlag Erwin Lowe, Berlin 1937)
Maybe BEAJ can help, is there anything special about that number somehow in the prophacies about the jews returning to israel? I think I read something about how they would return minus some number but I don't know much about it.

2. Why continue the lie?

Because they are still asking for money and half the world has guilt about the gassings.

Quote:

Police: Jewish GW Student Admits Putting Swastikas On Her DoorWASHINGTON -- George Washington University officials said a Jewish student who complained about swastikas showing up on her door put them there herself.

The student lives in Mitchell Hall, where half a dozen swastikas had shown up on her dorm room door in the past several weeks.
http://www.nbc4.com/news/14516979/detail.html and she's not the first to do something like that. Would there be such an emotional response if the jews had died in a war just like every other innocent person that has died in a war?

3. Why torture. Because the allies needed them to be EVIL. They need to get them to admit to gassings and other horrible things. Executing "enemy combatants" just doesn't get people as upset. And sure we all feel terrible that people died from disease...but that's nothing compared to evil experiments and gassings. I don't think any one person could testify to the killings of 6 million anyway.

baconeatingatheistjew 11-15-2007 04:05 PM

Considering the fact I've labeled you as crazy, I must admit that I respect the civility you've shown with me.
Here is a raving anti-semites attempt to use the 6 million number and relate it to the Talmud:
http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Jews...ionNumber.html

Basically, the number 6 is the key number, and again, I don't really know much about the Talmud etc to help further.

Here is how the number of Jewish deaths are actually estimated, using estimated Jewish populations in Europe and then deducting those who actually survived:
#

Germany 195,000
Austria 53,000
Czechoslovakia 255,000
Denmark 1,500
France 140,000
Belgium 57,000
Luxemburg 3,000
Norway 1,000
Holland 120,000
Italy 20,000
Yugoslavia 64,000
Greece 64,000
Bulgaria 5,000
Rumania 530,000
Hungary 200,000
Poland 3,271,000
USSR 1,050,000
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)
Total number of Jews killed 5,721,500

(This estimate was arrived at using population statistics, and not by adding the number of casualties at each camp. These are also available -- for instance, a separate file with the ruling of a German court regarding the number of victims in Treblinka is available. The SS kept rather accurate records, and many of the documents survived, reinforced by eyewitness accounts).
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar01.html

On whether the Jews died innocently and were not targeted:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar39.html

Because they are still asking for money and half the world has guilt about the gassings.
***********************
When did Jews start "asking" for money? And the world has guilt over those who looked liked skeletons, or who were shot in pits....the gassings also created guilt too, but it is the whole picture.

The Dachau gas chambers: the story and the pictures:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/

baconeatingatheistjew 11-15-2007 04:20 PM

As far as the extorting money claim goes, the first time reparations were mentioned was 1952 I believe:

German Holocaust Reparations
(1952)

The Israeli Knesset debated whether to accept Holocaust reparations from Germany in January 1952. Menachem Begin was among the members of the opposition who considered the reparations offer blood money. In September, however, German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer signed an agreement that the Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany — East Germany never provided any compensation to Holocaust survivors) would provide $715 million in goods and services to the State of Israel as compensation for taking in survivors; $110 million to the Claims Conference for programs to finance the relief, rehabilitation, and resettlement of Jewish Holocaust survivors; and direct reparations to selected individuals over a 12-year period. Germany was once compensating 275,000 survivors. Today, the number is approximately 120,000.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...parations.html

I could be wrong about when reparations were first asked for. But I'm sure the 6 million number was arrived at long before Jews started thinking about dough.

nkb 11-15-2007 06:30 PM

Quote:

Noprayersneeded wrote (Post 451183)
Well for me, it's that I can accept that people died of sickness and disease, that some were shot execution style, I'm sure some died on the train cars. The gas chambers and similar stories just seem uber EVIL.

If you have any questions about the gas chambers, I can assure you they existed (and still do in some places, as a reminder). Unless you are contending that the Allies built these after the war, and blamed the Nazis for them.

Quote:

Noprayersneeded wrote (Post 451183)
Why inflate the numbers?
From what I've read there's something about the figure 6 million. I'll quote from the one thread at codoh.

You're missing my point: What purpose would there be for all the Allies to inflate the numbers? Are the USA, the UK, France, Germany, etc all run by the Jews? Does that not seem farfetched?

Quote:

Noprayersneeded wrote (Post 451183)
2. Why continue the lie?

Because they are still asking for money and half the world has guilt about the gassings.

Once again, that misses the point: What purpose would that serve to all the countries that still maintain it was 6 million?

Quote:

Noprayersneeded wrote (Post 451183)
http://www.nbc4.com/news/14516979/detail.html and she's not the first to do something like that. Would there be such an emotional response if the jews had died in a war just like every other innocent person that has died in a war?

How is that proof of anything? If there are black individuals that hang a noose from a tree in their front yard to get attention, does that mean that blacks weren't lynched?

Quote:

Noprayersneeded wrote (Post 451183)
3. Why torture. Because the allies needed them to be EVIL. They need to get them to admit to gassings and other horrible things. Executing "enemy combatants" just doesn't get people as upset. And sure we all feel terrible that people died from disease...but that's nothing compared to evil experiments and gassings. I don't think any one person could testify to the killings of 6 million anyway.

Why did the Allies need them to be so evil? You saying so doesn't make it true.

Noprayersneeded 11-15-2007 06:32 PM

The links weren't working for me but now they are, I wrote this when they weren't working. I did find this though.
Quote:

In 1942, the crematorium area was constructed next to the main camp. It included the old crematorium and the new crematorium (Barrack X) with a gas chamber. There is no credible evidence that the gas chamber in Barrack X was used to murder human beings
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php...uleId=10005214
Quote:

Instead, prisoners underwent "selection"; those who were judged too sick or weak to continue working were sent to the Hartheim "euthanasia" killing center near Linz, Austria
why send them away if you have a gas chamber..or firing squad..or gallows...or since they are to sick to work I doubt they'd put up much of a fight if you slit their throats.

The reparations did start in 52, but he was asking why the number would not be changed and I do think money is a big part of why.

Quote:

A German Treasury official responded Saturday to Israeli Minister Rafi Eitan's request that the 1952 reparations agreement between the countries be reopened by saying that "only a short while ago we allocated some 100 million euros (about $147 million) for those who were held in labor camps during the Holocaust. This was a one-time humanitarian gesture, and we have no plans to make any additional payments."
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/Art...469765,00.html
But in a later article they say they will open talks if Israel makes a formal request.

Also
Quote:

'My childhood was ruined by the trauma of the Nazi death camps. Now I want compensation'
http://news.independent.co.uk/people...cle3008317.ece Not because she was in a camp but because her parents were and what I'm going to call PTSD made them over protective and they sometimes acted odd
Quote:

"It is time to bring out the scream of the second generation who carry in their souls the scars and to acknowledge the fact that they too are Holocaust victims," says Fisher
How long will Germany have to worry about paying? Will grandchildren be asking for money? Will thier souls also carry the scars?


This is the first I've really talked about holocaust revisionism...I just don't feel any passion for it, it's kinda boring. I'd much rather talk video games.

baconeatingatheistjew 11-15-2007 06:50 PM

Slitting throats in this case would be way too time consuming. A firing squad was definitely the way to go.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/a...ocaust00_1.jpg

Would you accept it if the Bolsheviks (who were led by many atheist Jews) used gas to kill masses if they had the means at the time? Why not the Germans?

Noprayersneeded 11-15-2007 07:24 PM

Why should I accept it if it were done by the bolsheviks?

Should I post the pictures of the peopple the US nuked in Japan? Then we can compare the evilness of people who died from typhus and people killed to test out our new toy.


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