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redbeardjon 12-08-2013 03:52 PM

Proof of God
 
Hello. I am a theist. I had to write a blog for a school assignment and I need to record how people respond. This is where you come in. Leave comments, questions, rebuttals. Thanks!

Some people do not believe in God. As for myself I can only tell you what I know based on what I have seen and heard. I know that what I have seen and heard is different because of who I was born to. I was raised the son of a pastor.

First, I will tell you what I know. If you have attended church as long as I have (my entire 22 year life span, remember I am a pastor’s son), then you will have heard some things that capture your attention. In the Bible, there are people designated as prophets, people who God spoke to concerning the future. These prophets did not keep the message to themselves; the things they heard were written down. The two prophets I want to emphasize are Isaiah and David. Isaiah wrote sometime between 700 and 680 B.C. that “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” People in Isaiah’s time did not have a full understanding of what he was talking about, but sometime around 7-2 B.C. (we know this because the Bible says Herod the Great was ruling the area), God sent an angel to a virgin named Mary and said “You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.” The birth of Jesus was foretold hundreds of years before it happened and so was His method of death. Sometime between 1040 and 970 B.C., David wrote about Jesus “They have pierced my hands and feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments and cast lots for my clothing.” One record of Jesus’ death, written between 59 and 63 A.D., states “And they divided up his clothes by casting lots. The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him.” David foretold the details of Jesus’ death by Roman crucifixion before the Roman Empire even existed and a written account of Jesus’ death confirms that these things took place. Three days after His death, Jesus was raised from the dead by God, appeared to His followers, and gave them this command “Go into the entire world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: They will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues…. They will place their hands on sick people and they will get well.”

Now I have been in church my entire life and I can say that I have seen these signs among those who believe. During one church service there was a man who had back problems because his legs were uneven. I saw the preacher sit the man down and as he prayed for him the man’s leg stretched out to match the other. There were others present who I could point you to that will say that this in fact did happen. A member of the church I attend got into a chemical accident at work and received significant damage to his heart tissue. This man was dependent on a machine for his life. His wife consistently prayed and his heart is fully working now, machine free. A friend of mine went to Turkey for six weeks to “preach the good news.” While she was there, they visited the mountain regions because those people have little access to medical care. Her group prayed for people in the name of Jesus and many were healed. Jesus said those who believe will “speak in new tongues.” This is when a believer praises God or prays to Him in a language they have never learned as God speaks it to them. I have traveled to numerous churches and have heard many people speaking in languages that neither I nor they themselves understand. I have heard my mother, brother, and close friends speaking “in new tongues.” Perhaps you do not understand these things, but it is important for you to know that they do happen.

What is the significance of all these things? If all of these things were foretold and came to pass, then what Jesus said (“Whoever believes will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”) will also come to pass. The questions then are “What are we supposed to be believe and what are we saved from?” We need to believe that:

1.God has set the standard for what is right and wrong.
2.We have all fallen short of God’s standards through lying, stealing, jealousy, sexual immorality (adultery, sex before marriage, pornography etc.), denying God’s existence, and many other things.
3.We deserve punishment for breaking God’s standards similar to the way criminals are sentenced by a judge. The punishment for breaking God’s standards is being denied access into heaven.
4.Jesus is the Son of God and did not break God’s standard. All of the punishment that was due us was taken on by Him in His death by Roman Crucifixion. This punishment was more than the physical aspect; Jesus took God’s wrath on himself.

So we are saved from the wrath of God if we believe in what Jesus did, admit our wrongdoing, and seek to live the way God instructed us to in the Bible. A simple prayer such as “God, I know that Jesus is your son and that through him I am forgiven of my sins. I know that I have been on the wrong path and now I want to follow you,” is a good first step towards living the way God intended for you. I pray that what I have seen and heard in the church as a pastor’s son will be helpful in pointing you towards God. I also encourage you to visit a church and see for yourself what God is all about. Feel free to contact me at jcg0814@aol.com if you need help finding the right church for you or have any questions or comments.

ghoulslime 12-08-2013 07:08 PM

Your god is entirely imaginary. You are a delusional person.

redbeardjon 12-08-2013 10:16 PM

Ah, excellent something to report! 625 million people are a part of the denomination I am involved with. They believe in healing and speaking in tongues because they have seen it in many different countries. Regarding the man who's leg was stretched out, more than 200 people witnessed it. Are we all delusional? I was raised with a pastor for a parent and I know many ministers as a result. These people are not illusionists to pull off a stunt like that. Before you make the claim, with as much certainty as you do, that God is imaginary, perhaps you should travel the world with a man of God. If you haven't, then you can't be sure what you say is true.

Michael 12-09-2013 03:31 AM

Hi!

I'm not going to address everything you wrote because it's far too much to address in one go, but I'll touch on a few things. Mostly the first things that take my fancy to respond to.

But before that I want to comment that your assignment seems curious. Mostly when we get theists in doing assignments they've been tasked with finding out about other worldviews - and subsequently (provided they are well-meaning) a discussion follows about where the differences lie.
It seems you've been given a rather different assignment - in which you are to preach at us and see how we respond. Naturally we won't take to it as kindly as others might and I suspect that is the point. Anyway, since you have brought up some issues and want to see how we respond, here it is.


Quote:

As for myself I can only tell you what I know based on what I have seen and heard.
Only if everything you know is anecdotal, and anecdotal evidence is useless. Otherwise you should be able to point to things backing up your claims - scientific studies, historical documents etc etc (depending on what you're trying to tell us you know).

Quote:

I know that what I have seen and heard is different because of who I was born to. I was raised the son of a pastor.
I would put forward, then - not knowing anything about you other than the fact that you have told us you were raised around religion (and being the son of a pastor I would imagine that religion was big in your life). I would guess if I had to that pretty much everyone you've ever met or at least spent any sort of substantial time around has been either somehow related to your church or at least significantly religious.
I would suspect, then - linking this back to what I said earlier about your assignment - that is task of yours is designed to "introduce" you to other viewpoints. But rather than have you use your own initiative and instigate a constructive conversation, they've had you go out and preach in order to get combatative responses, so they can point and say "see how bad they are without god? You shouldn't question the faith".

Of course, I could be wrong about this. Maybe you've lived with a pastor who loved to have atheists and hindus and jews over for dinner and have lively debates with them, but so far that's not sounding like it at all.

Anyway, I digress.

Quote:

Isaiah wrote sometime between 700 and 680 B.C. that “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” People in Isaiah’s time did not have a full understanding of what he was talking about, but sometime around 7-2 B.C. (we know this because the Bible says Herod the Great was ruling the area), God sent an angel to a virgin named Mary and said “You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.”
Okay. You've done a great job of telling me what is purported to have happened in your faith. You've done nothing to tell me why any of it should be considered true.

Quote:

The birth of Jesus was foretold hundreds of years before it happened and so was His method of death.
Once again, you've told me what you're supposed to believe, but not anything about why. This is not uncommon when theists talk to atheists. Often they feel that the belief itself is meant to be proof of something, rather than finding the proof that supports the belief.
I suspect the if I pressed you on why you believe this, the answer will be long and complicated but basically boil down to "because I was told to believe it".

Anyway, the prophesies of Jesus by Isaiah have a lot of problems with them, even if you take the words as legitimately having been written before his birth, rather than retrofitted. However, without you telling me why you believe what you do there is no point me going through that since you're likely to come back with a "well I don't believe that bit, I believe......" and make the whole thing pointless.


Quote:

During one church service there was a man who had back problems because his legs were uneven. I saw the preacher sit the man down and as he prayed for him the man’s leg stretched out to match the other.
This is not an uncommon trick of faith-healers. Derren Brown (famous british hypnotist and general mind-f*ck guru) does a great job of debunking this.

Watch this.


Once again, I'm going to make some guesses about you based on what you've told us about yourself. If I'm wrong, so be it, but this is simply my opinion based on what I've seen of you so far.

I kind of get the feeling you won't watch that, if only to protect your steadfast belief that it was a "miracle". You'll probably tell yourself "Oh, sure, that Derren guy faked it, but that doesn't prove that all cases are faked! What I saw was real!". Okay. Fine. We can't prove what you saw at the faith healer wasn't real, it's anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is funny like that.
But why should we buy into a supernatural explanation for it - that opens up a lot more questions than it answers - when there is a proven natural explanation that is much simpler?

By the way, I would recommend watching the entire double-episode of that. It's called "Miracles for Sale" and it is absolutely eye-opening.

Quote:

A member of the church I attend got into a chemical accident at work and received significant damage to his heart tissue. This man was dependent on a machine for his life. His wife consistently prayed and his heart is fully working now, machine free. A friend of mine went to Turkey for six weeks to “preach the good news.” While she was there, they visited the mountain regions because those people have little access to medical care. Her group prayed for people in the name of Jesus and many were healed.
This is all anecdotal. We have absolutely no way of knowing if any of it even happened, or if it did happen, that it happened the way you're telling it. We don't know what other factors played roles in any recoveries they may have had or anything at all beyond the limited information you've told us. As such, it is wholly unreliable as evidence for anyone but yourself.

Quote:

Jesus said those who believe will “speak in new tongues.” This is when a believer praises God or prays to Him in a language they have never learned as God speaks it to them. I have traveled to numerous churches and have heard many people speaking in languages that neither I nor they themselves understand.
Speaking in tongues is not uncommon. However, people speaking in tongues and then being able to understand it is. As in it doesn't happen. People do get overcome in church and begin to speak in glossolalia, but studies on the phenomenon have revealed that it is indecipherable, and mostly consisting of random sounds. I'll try to provide some of the information on it later.



Quote:

If all of these things were foretold and came to pass, then what Jesus said (“Whoever believes will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”) will also come to pass.
You are yet to show anything has come to pass, and subsequently there is no reason to believe the things you think jesus said will either.



Quote:

1.God has set the standard for what is right and wrong.
Obviously people on this forum disagree.


Quote:

4.Jesus is the Son of God and did not break God’s standard.
Actually, God says in Exodus 20:3 -
"You shall have no other gods before Me."

However, in John 14:6, Jesus says -
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me".

Jesus is literally putting himself before god here. Sure, Catholics have found a workaround by claiming that Jesus and God are the same (despite the bible clearly stating otherwise in certain places), and most Christians will give jesus a pass on this. I don't think they should, but there you go.

But yeah, jesus broke god's standards. It's false to claim he didn't. I'm guessing you'll disagree. Feel free to tell me about it.
But remember, I don't care so much about what you believe but why you believe it. Don't just tell me what your faith says, give the reasons why it should be believed. You can be guaranteed I'll pull you up on it if you don't.

Kinich Ahau 12-09-2013 05:04 AM

Fuck, I read that whole screed and didn't see one iota of proof, I was really expecting it this time. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Smellyoldgit 12-09-2013 06:23 AM

Jayzus - haven't had to laugh at such a bullshit wall of text for years! Is there anything of the slightest interest worthy of a quick mock?

Quote:

nutjob wrote
Hello. I am a theist.

You have my deepest sympathy.

Quote:

nutjob wrote
Some people do not believe in God.

No shit sherlock. :rolleyes:

Quote:

nutjob wrote
I can only tell you what I know based on what I have seen and heard.

Look up the difference between 'know' and 'believe'

Quote:

nutjob wrote
I was raised the son of a pastor.

More sympathy - have you sued for child abuse?

Quote:

nutjob wrote
my entire 22 year life span

Gosh, you've really been around and admirably wasted the potential of your formative years.

Quote:

nutjob wrote
In the Bible

You do realise that ancient tribal stories, edited, translated, expanded and re-interpreted many times do not constitute proof or evidence of anything other than what fearful fools the writers were? Detete 'Bible' add 'JK Rowling books, delete 'Jesus' add 'Harry Potter'

.... and are you really surprised that old stories written later than even older stories confirm what the even older stories claim? Your pastor father did a splendid job of embedding your stupidity.

Quote:

nutjob wrote
a man who had back problems ....

Show me the complete medical records and an MD's post-'cure'report and I might manage to stop yawning.

Quote:

nutjob wrote
have heard many people speaking in languages that neither I nor they themselves understand

Yes, I've read lumps of the Catholic Encyclopedia - tedious isn't it.

Quote:

nutjob wrote
What is the significance of all these things?

It keeps credulous fools under control and rakes in loads of wonga for the lying, devious, unscrupulous cunts at the helm.

Quote:

nutjob wrote
1.God has set the standard for what is right and wrong.

Slavery, mysogyny, murder, rape, human sacrifice etc - he must be really chuffed with himself.

Quote:

nutjob wrote
2.We have all fallen short of God’s standards

Fucking good job! - see 1. above

Quote:

nutjob wrote
.... see for yourself what God is all about ....

You'd do well to take this advice. :rolleyes:

Do you do anal?

ILOVEJESUS 12-09-2013 07:29 AM

Another false prophet. I was really hoping to be convinced this time. Pleased the Derren Brown video explaining "faith healing" was shown. Now let's get you signed up to the "atheist religion".......oh wait....too much Jerry influence there.

Smellyoldgit 12-09-2013 08:06 AM

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...34549877_n.jpg

Davin 12-09-2013 08:26 AM

Is it really sad that when I see a thread title like "Proof of God" that I'm no longer expecting any actual proof inside it? I'm not disappointed by this one.

ghoulslime 12-09-2013 09:35 AM

Quote:

redbeardjon wrote (Post 675373)
Ah, excellent something to report! 625 million people are a part of the denomination I am involved with. They believe in healing and speaking in tongues because they have seen it in many different countries. Regarding the man who's leg was stretched out, more than 200 people witnessed it. Are we all delusional? I was raised with a pastor for a parent and I know many ministers as a result. These people are not illusionists to pull off a stunt like that. Before you make the claim, with as much certainty as you do, that God is imaginary, perhaps you should travel the world with a man of God. If you haven't, then you can't be sure what you say is true.

Argumentum ad populum - it's a logical fallacy isn't it, dolt?

1.5 billion Muslims! How can so many be wrong?

900 million Hindus! How can so many be wrong?

You are a delusional lunatic, and we are not interested in buying your snake oil.

Barney 12-09-2013 04:01 PM

Hello. I am a theist.

Hi

I had to write a blog for a school assignment and I need to record how people respond. This is where you come in. Leave comments, questions, rebuttals. Thanks!

Sure will!

Some people do not believe in God.

Sheesh. Yep. The world has got some independent thinkers yes.

As for myself I can only tell you what I know based on what I have seen and heard. I know that what I have seen and heard is different because of who I was born to. I was raised the son of a pastor.

Let me guess.....And you grew up to be a John Frumist?

First, I will tell you what I know

This will be short...

. If you have attended church as long as I have (my entire 22 year life span, remember I am a pastor’s son), then you will have heard some things that capture your attention. In the Bible, there are people designated as prophets,


Who consistantly fail
people who God spoke to concerning the future.

But told them lies and gibberish, farcically easily rebutted.


These prophets did not keep the message to themselves;

No way. They went door to fucking door with their shit. Glad things have changed today eh?

the things they heard were written down. The two prophets I want to emphasize are Isaiah and David. Isaiah wrote sometime between 700 and 680 B.C. that “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.”

Its mistranslated by later greek scribes. The word is Alma and means Young Woman. Your ignorant iron age scribes got it wrong. the church hammered out dogma based on it. They people who know about it laugh at you, and you theists bluster and strut about trying to ignore this very easy to prove point.


People in Isaiah’s time did not have a full understanding of what he was talking about,

Because it sounded like Junk even to them

but sometime around 7-2 B.C. (we know this because the Bible says Herod the Great was ruling the area),

Wrong Herod Champ

God sent an angel

Really!

to a virgin

for a change

named Mary and said “You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.”

which he wasnt

The birth of Jesus was foretold hundreds of years before it happened and so was His method of death. Sometime between 1040 and 970 B.C., David wrote about Jesus “They have pierced my hands and feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments and cast lots for my clothing.” One record of Jesus’ death, written between 59 and 63 A.D., states “And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

You have no clue who this was about have you? Why dont you look it up!

The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him.” David foretold the details of Jesus’ death by Roman crucifixion before the Roman Empire even existed and a written account of Jesus’ death confirms that these things took place.

By his cultists 70 years after his death, none of whom knew him!!

Three days after His death, Jesus was raised from the dead by God,

with no evidence
appeared to His followers,

who wrote nothing

and gave them this command “Go into the entire world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Really? The old carrot and stick magic hell-park? Scary!

And these signs will accompany those who believe: They will drive out demons;

No such thing, just the chance to whip and beat up epileptics
they will speak in new tongues….

And go into emotionally fueled group induced babblings which mean fuck all

They will place their hands on sick people and they will get well.”

And all those who die get ignored

Now I have been in church my entire life and I can say that I have seen these signs among those who believe.

i am certain you have you poor poor kid
During one church service there was a man who had back problems because his legs were uneven. I saw the preacher sit the man down and as he prayed for him the man’s leg stretched out to match the other.
LMAO! It's a scientific miracle. Get him on TV! its proof of Gawd, who in the same moment massacred thousands of beleiving parents children with cot death and brain tumours

Getting bored with your tripe now. You have no critical faculties. You beleive in childish magic. You have zero moral values and worship a pathetic cult which is fueled by guilt, child abuse and blood sacrifice.

Grow up. seriously It is twenty fucking thirteen. GROW UP.

ghoulslime 12-09-2013 06:04 PM

Quote:

Barney wrote (Post 675395)
Let me guess.....And you grew up to be a John Frumist?


:lol:

redbeardjon 12-09-2013 08:24 PM

Its mistranslated by later greek scribes. The word is Alma and means Young Woman. Your ignorant iron age scribes got it wrong. the church hammered out dogma based on it. They people who know about it laugh at you, and you theists bluster and strut about trying to ignore this very easy to prove point.

Point me to sources that document this.

And go into emotionally fueled group induced babblings

“The evidence of Baptism in the Holy Spirit is based on neither emotional reactions nor physical gyrations. Speaking in tongues is the physical evidence. You may or may not have a highly emotional physical reaction.”

“You don’t have to receive with people praying around you. You may receive at home, in your car, or on the job.” (Be Filled with the Spirit, Doyle Jones)

What you propose induces the experience is not held to be a requirement for receiving.


who in the same moment massacred thousands of beleiving parents children with cot death and brain tumours

If you can explain more clearly what you are talking about, I may be able to give an answer.

ILOVEJESUS 12-10-2013 04:49 AM

Redbeard, where exactly are the Muslims wrong...and you are right?

Smellyoldgit 12-10-2013 05:58 AM

Quote:

Brainwashed nutjob wrote
Point me to sources that document this.

I do understand how a little simple questioning research may be very difficult for one so cranially challenged, but Google is your friend and will give you dozens of responses to pore over.
Quote:

Brainwashed nutjob wrote
If you can explain more clearly what you are talking about, I may be able to give an answer.

I suppose you find it difficult to question why this alleged all powerful, loving, benevolent gawd chooses to straighten some shoes in front of a selected audience of slack-jawed, mouth-breathing fools - whilst at the same time overseeing the deaths of millions of innocent children either through starvation or a wonderful array of beautifully crafted diseases.
Weird how he's also cheering for both sides as the bombs & bullets get flung around during regular humanoid slaughterfests.


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