[Egor]

West491 wrote

How are you aware of an event that took place outside of spacetime? Because, you see, if it is true that God exists outside of spacetime, there is no way for us to know it because we exist inside of spacetime.

I’m not aware of it; I contemplate it. You are correct: There is no way for us to know about God as he exists outside of the physical universe until, that is, we come to the fruition of our consciousness, which is the consciousness of God. But I’d be very surprised if that’s actually possible for a human being to do while alive in the physical world.

Having said that, it’s not that hard to contemplate an eternal present moment as it existed before the universe began. I believe the reason we can do that is because we have the capability of developing a god-consciousness. I don’t think any other animal can contemplate that (Granted, I don’t know another animal can’t, but I doubt it.).

Sternwallow wrote

For several reasons, including but not limited to the fact that atheism is not a world view, atheism has no position on the question of whether the universe was created or not.

Well, let’s talk about that then. If we go all the way back to the singularity before the big bang, and even if we go back to before there was a physical singularity, why would anything come into existence if it were not willed in some way into existence? The simplest answer is that there must be some causative agent that wanted it to occur. It wouldn’t just happen for no reason at all. It wouldn’t just pop into existence for nothing out of nothing. To consider that so is magical thinking. It’s easier to suppose some kind of intelligent creator.

How, do you suppose, the universe, has a companion realm, part of it outside, without the universe being exactly the subset that you said was not possible for god?

The universe would, in fact, be an object. God would be the ultimate set and the universe would be a subset of God.

"god did it" explains nothing, proves nothing, simplifies nothing.

You’re asking for more than you can handle. You don’t even believe in God, so trying to figure out the motivations or dynamics of God is pointless. Only a believer can do that. What I’m saying is that it’s the simplest possible solution that could give us a universe. That is that an intelligent willful agent caused the universe to begin.

Michael wrote

I have asked this on these forums before, and I'll ask it again. If you need to have something as being "uncreated" to make things right, why is it that you're allowed to make that thing god, but the universe isn't granted the same priviledge? By saying the universe can't have been "not created" therefore a god must exist is just adding an extra step and making things more complicated than they need to be.

Good point. Why does God get to be uncreated, but the universe has to be created by something. Simply put, the universe shows evidence of having had a beginning, or if it always existed, it has motion, and that requires a prime mover (something that is itself unmoved by anything else). This is all assumed because an infinite regress of causes results in nothing being caused. Assuming the existence of God, ultimately, keeps us from having to resort to magical thinking.

The big question is, of course, how could God just “be” without ever having been created. I propose that God cannot even answer that question. Like a limit in calculus, that answer is eternally approached but never resolved. I propose that God does not know why He exists. It is, in fact, impossible knowledge.

But that’s not really what’s at issue here. We’re debating the existence of God, we are not trying to figure out the dynamics of God. It does us no good to contemplate the dynamics if we don’t even believe God exists.

I heard an argument once that some of the things you said remind me of, which I'd like to try to re-state hear. Now, bear in mind I'm no philosopher or scientist so my portrayal probably won't be elegant or complete. But I'd like to give it a go.

Time and Space exist together. Without something to to observe time, time is irrelevant. If we take the view that there was nothing before the "big bang", then there was nothing to observe time. We can, then, confer that as far as being observable the universe has always existed.


Now, if we say "Aha! but god exists outside of our space, therefore he was observing and the universe had a beginning! Yes! Score one for the away team!", that's fine, but then you've added a whole lot of problems. Where does this god "exist" outside of everything? It can't exist in nothing, otherwise it is nothing. Nothing with something in it is something. So then how did this something come about? God can't have created it, he/she is in it. It must have been created, once again, by an external source. And so it goes.


So the addition of a god only serves to make this equation far more complicated than it need be. If you need something to be "uncreated" in order for things to make sense to you, it is best to allow the universe to be that and make things a whole lot cleaner.

I definitely feel your pain on this one. Unfortunately, the physical universe doesn’t fit the bill. It apparently had a beginning or was set in motion by some prime mover. However, God can’t exist somewhere “outside” the universe; I agree. That is why I do not believe in the Christian revelation of God. I believe, instead, in a monistic concept of God. That is that all that exists is God. There is nothing but God. There is no universe apart from God. There is no separation. Just like in a dream.

Tonight I’ll go to sleep and have a dream; I do every night. There will be people and things in that dream. There will be a sky, buildings, a street, gravity, light, wind, all of that, no doubt. But all of that will only be my mind. The mind of a man sleeping in a bed. The universe, therefore, is simply a thought God is having. Nothing more. We are characters in his imaginings, nothing more.