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Old 06-05-2007, 03:45 AM   #445
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 138
Lily wrote
The problem is, you, like so many here, have created a caricature of an "evil" fundy and believe it to be true. Thus it is virtually impossible to create a middle ground where issues can be discussed.
The problem with you is that you are speaking with the benefit of hundreds of years of SECULAR science, education & western cultural & moral progess that has come DESPITE religion not because of it. You can coldy shrug off literal interpretations of passages, citing them as obviously poetic, midrash, symbolic, creative, metaphorical etc. as modern understanding requires all but the 'most compartmentalised thinkers' to distance themselves from literal interpretations of the more ludicrous passages.

It is not the fundies that are evil it is the bible. The bible's commanding of rape, torture, murder, genocide, permission of slavery, & promotion of intolerance against unbelievers, believers of other faiths, Jews, & homosexuals; & of course promotion of misogony.

The only thing I find more unbelievable than the bible is the pathetic 'stretch of the imagination' apologetics. If you choose to worship a complete bastard of a god, at least have the courage to admit that at least by his own accounts he is a bastard.

Such pity, that the crusaders didn't have your intellect & reading to reject the Pope's call to war. I'm sure you would have been smarter in the 10th & 11th century than they were despite none of your current education you love to lord over me & others.

You claim not to be sympathetic towards fundamentalism, yet I remember reading one of your posts many months ago that you were seriously looking at the Catholic church, the church responsible for more human misery, atrocities & deaths than any other.

Lily wrote
I and other "theists" have spoken many times about the (non) issues you raise.
They are all issues. Maybe not for someone as enlightened as you. After all the crusaders weren't real Christians like you, despite the fact many sold their lands, & even borrowed money to heed the Pope's call to battle, despite the fact that they risked & indeed mostly gave their lives. Likewise the adoption of Sharia Law cannot be blamed on the bible, nor the hatred of the Jews, nor the killing of witches. I mean if someone is stupid enough to read, 'Do not suffer a witch to live' literally, instead of it's obvious meaning, 'love one another' what can you do.

Lily wrote
"The creation story, Noah et al. is pure mythology. The Church has always known that--and we have proved this by citing the relevant sources over and over again. I did so again, in this very thread."
& yet we have a $27 million dollar creation museum built in Kansas, & hundred of more millions of dollars spent fighting 'evolution theory'. You tacitly & directly support these imbeciles by calling yourself a Christian, just as you tacitly & directly support the deaths of millions in Africa & third world nations where the Catholic church preaches against condoms, by indentifying yourself as a Catholic if you have in fact made this choice.

Do not delude yourself that your moderate 'middle ground' approach is not harming society. You are no different than the moderate muslims who form the community from which the jihadists spring.

Lily wrote
I haven't concerned myself quite as much with the NT, mostly because I find the challenges to its historicity so silly.
Agreed, the fact that it was such a short time ago, the meticulous record keeping of the Romans, the proximity to the great library of Alexandria & the scholars & historians who frequented it, it would be impossible for the stories & miracles contained in the NT not to be picked up on by a dozen or more historians. This was the news story of the millennia. The fact that not one reputable historian wrote about Jesus, we obviously can conclude that the entire NT is just jewish midrash as is the OT. Vile, intolerant, racist, homophobic, genocidal, misognystic, evil rubbish.

Lily wrote
Or, you can develop a more sophisticated grasp of what we really believe. That doesn't mean that you will change your mind and suddenly become a "theist". It will merely enable you to talk meaningfully about and to us.
I doubt you could find two Christians who believed the same things Lily, that is from different denominations anyway. Besided I'm not so much concerned with what various theists believe as what your vile text ACTUALLY states.

I can talk more 'meaningfully' to most of the sheeple about religion than they can, as I was once a sheep, & even then read & understood more than the majority. My mind was 'changed' when I became a theist, I developed OCD's, superstitions, suffered low self esteem, & other psychological problems, as a direct result of believing is something I couldn't see, feel, hear, touch, smell. Please don't wish such state upon me again, I am now mentally healthy & wish to say that way. I can only hope the same for you Lily.:| It's not too late, it never will be, while your body holds breath

\"When you believe in things that you don\'t understand, then you suffer.
Superstition aint the way.\"- Stevie Wonder \'Superstition\'
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