[Sternwallow]

Lily wrote

You are quite new here and, I see, you are definitely fitting in. That is not a good thing, per se. The problem is, you, like so many here, have created a caricature of an "evil" fundy and believe it to be true. Thus it is virtually impossible to create a middle ground where issues can be discussed. Well it is the raving atheists, as I have been told repeatedly. I just don't accept that as an excuse.

I and other "theists" have spoken many times about the (non) issues you raise. The creation story, Noah et al. is pure mythology. The Church has always known that-- and we have proved this by citing the relevant sources over and over again. I did so again, in this very thread.

You can, if you like, consult a briefer version of the education I and others have tried to impart here: http://ravingatheists.com/forum/view...233715#p233715 that is #303 in this thread. I think there were some good questions asked by Snap and Demi in the following messages before Stern and AJF swooped in to turn this into another brawl.

I haven't concerned myself quite as much with the NT, mostly because I find the challenges to its historicity so silly. For a sober discussion you might want to use the search function and search for author Steveg or Thomas. Both of them, singly or in talking together (there is a Steve vs Thomas thread), are a real pleasure to read.

Then, when you have been adequately informed, you will have a choice; continue to hold to the beliefs you express here which fit in very well with the simplistic and largely ignorant forum line. The cheers will gladden your heart and assure you that you are one of the gang.

Or, you can develop a more sophisticated grasp of what we really believe. That doesn't mean that you will change your mind and suddenly become a "theist". It will merely enable you to talk meaningfully about and to us.

You thoroughly miss the issue regarding fundies. If you don't believe that the OT is true throughout, except for a very few tiny wording patches here and there, you are not a fundy by my definition. You merely hold a few of the same loony beliefs. There are abundant fundies who do believe the whole list of hogwash and overall Biblical inerrancy. The reason we bother about them is that, in their exercise of their freedom of religion, they believe that they are under a "burden" from God himself to restrict all of our freedom from religion in the case of atheists and freedom of religion for all non-Christians. We can be thankful that relatively few of these poor misguided “souls” do not actually put their faith into practice by imprisoning and stoning people they decide are miscreants.

We have been informed and clearly understand the concept that sin is the progenitor of evil and that its introduction into the, until that moment, perfect world, stained the whole of nature even refitting some large herbivores, on the spot, with different dentition so that they could become carnivores. Certainly the invention of evil where it never existed before is the root cause of devastating volcanic eruptions and earthquakes (as reported for a sign during the crucifixion). How ignorant we must be to question these things.

You, Lily, are apparently not a normal fundy. They are out there, that 30+% of Christians who do explicitly believe in Cal's "Night of the Ancient Living Dead" and they would happily make it illegal to say that that grisly scene never really happened.

Now, I would not take the Bible as a viable basis for a religion or for any other consideration beyond its marginal value as a raw piece of literature. One could as easily justify adopting "Finnegans Wake" by James Joyce as the rock on which to build a church. It is at least as reliable, sensible and believable as the Bible and it has several advantages by being new enough that the landmarks it references still exist, enabling us to confirm its veracity. Also like the Bible, but less cryptic and more easily evaluated, "Finnegans Wake" records a vast collection of predictions which, by the end of the book, have been shown to have come true with truly stunning precision. Unlike the Bible and greatly to its credit as belonging to a transcendent philosophy, “Finnegans Wake” is literally endless. Therefore, “Finnegans wake” is verily the word of any god that there might be. As an intelligent choice, "Finnegans Wake" is the best bet in routes to salvation or guidance in how to live the good life or dealing with the universal and timeless questions.

“Nonsense” quote by Lily as a substitute for rational discussion.

“Ridiculous” directly from the horse’s Lily mouth. A response of such stunning depth that I am bereft of adequate skills to plumb it.