Thread: Proof of God
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:31 AM   #4
Michael
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,457
Hi!

I'm not going to address everything you wrote because it's far too much to address in one go, but I'll touch on a few things. Mostly the first things that take my fancy to respond to.

But before that I want to comment that your assignment seems curious. Mostly when we get theists in doing assignments they've been tasked with finding out about other worldviews - and subsequently (provided they are well-meaning) a discussion follows about where the differences lie.
It seems you've been given a rather different assignment - in which you are to preach at us and see how we respond. Naturally we won't take to it as kindly as others might and I suspect that is the point. Anyway, since you have brought up some issues and want to see how we respond, here it is.


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As for myself I can only tell you what I know based on what I have seen and heard.
Only if everything you know is anecdotal, and anecdotal evidence is useless. Otherwise you should be able to point to things backing up your claims - scientific studies, historical documents etc etc (depending on what you're trying to tell us you know).

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I know that what I have seen and heard is different because of who I was born to. I was raised the son of a pastor.
I would put forward, then - not knowing anything about you other than the fact that you have told us you were raised around religion (and being the son of a pastor I would imagine that religion was big in your life). I would guess if I had to that pretty much everyone you've ever met or at least spent any sort of substantial time around has been either somehow related to your church or at least significantly religious.
I would suspect, then - linking this back to what I said earlier about your assignment - that is task of yours is designed to "introduce" you to other viewpoints. But rather than have you use your own initiative and instigate a constructive conversation, they've had you go out and preach in order to get combatative responses, so they can point and say "see how bad they are without god? You shouldn't question the faith".

Of course, I could be wrong about this. Maybe you've lived with a pastor who loved to have atheists and hindus and jews over for dinner and have lively debates with them, but so far that's not sounding like it at all.

Anyway, I digress.

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Isaiah wrote sometime between 700 and 680 B.C. that “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” People in Isaiah’s time did not have a full understanding of what he was talking about, but sometime around 7-2 B.C. (we know this because the Bible says Herod the Great was ruling the area), God sent an angel to a virgin named Mary and said “You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.”
Okay. You've done a great job of telling me what is purported to have happened in your faith. You've done nothing to tell me why any of it should be considered true.

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The birth of Jesus was foretold hundreds of years before it happened and so was His method of death.
Once again, you've told me what you're supposed to believe, but not anything about why. This is not uncommon when theists talk to atheists. Often they feel that the belief itself is meant to be proof of something, rather than finding the proof that supports the belief.
I suspect the if I pressed you on why you believe this, the answer will be long and complicated but basically boil down to "because I was told to believe it".

Anyway, the prophesies of Jesus by Isaiah have a lot of problems with them, even if you take the words as legitimately having been written before his birth, rather than retrofitted. However, without you telling me why you believe what you do there is no point me going through that since you're likely to come back with a "well I don't believe that bit, I believe......" and make the whole thing pointless.


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During one church service there was a man who had back problems because his legs were uneven. I saw the preacher sit the man down and as he prayed for him the man’s leg stretched out to match the other.
This is not an uncommon trick of faith-healers. Derren Brown (famous british hypnotist and general mind-f*ck guru) does a great job of debunking this.

Watch this.


Once again, I'm going to make some guesses about you based on what you've told us about yourself. If I'm wrong, so be it, but this is simply my opinion based on what I've seen of you so far.

I kind of get the feeling you won't watch that, if only to protect your steadfast belief that it was a "miracle". You'll probably tell yourself "Oh, sure, that Derren guy faked it, but that doesn't prove that all cases are faked! What I saw was real!". Okay. Fine. We can't prove what you saw at the faith healer wasn't real, it's anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is funny like that.
But why should we buy into a supernatural explanation for it - that opens up a lot more questions than it answers - when there is a proven natural explanation that is much simpler?

By the way, I would recommend watching the entire double-episode of that. It's called "Miracles for Sale" and it is absolutely eye-opening.

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A member of the church I attend got into a chemical accident at work and received significant damage to his heart tissue. This man was dependent on a machine for his life. His wife consistently prayed and his heart is fully working now, machine free. A friend of mine went to Turkey for six weeks to “preach the good news.” While she was there, they visited the mountain regions because those people have little access to medical care. Her group prayed for people in the name of Jesus and many were healed.
This is all anecdotal. We have absolutely no way of knowing if any of it even happened, or if it did happen, that it happened the way you're telling it. We don't know what other factors played roles in any recoveries they may have had or anything at all beyond the limited information you've told us. As such, it is wholly unreliable as evidence for anyone but yourself.

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Jesus said those who believe will “speak in new tongues.” This is when a believer praises God or prays to Him in a language they have never learned as God speaks it to them. I have traveled to numerous churches and have heard many people speaking in languages that neither I nor they themselves understand.
Speaking in tongues is not uncommon. However, people speaking in tongues and then being able to understand it is. As in it doesn't happen. People do get overcome in church and begin to speak in glossolalia, but studies on the phenomenon have revealed that it is indecipherable, and mostly consisting of random sounds. I'll try to provide some of the information on it later.



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If all of these things were foretold and came to pass, then what Jesus said (“Whoever believes will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”) will also come to pass.
You are yet to show anything has come to pass, and subsequently there is no reason to believe the things you think jesus said will either.



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1.God has set the standard for what is right and wrong.
Obviously people on this forum disagree.


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4.Jesus is the Son of God and did not break God’s standard.
Actually, God says in Exodus 20:3 -
"You shall have no other gods before Me."

However, in John 14:6, Jesus says -
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me".

Jesus is literally putting himself before god here. Sure, Catholics have found a workaround by claiming that Jesus and God are the same (despite the bible clearly stating otherwise in certain places), and most Christians will give jesus a pass on this. I don't think they should, but there you go.

But yeah, jesus broke god's standards. It's false to claim he didn't. I'm guessing you'll disagree. Feel free to tell me about it.
But remember, I don't care so much about what you believe but why you believe it. Don't just tell me what your faith says, give the reasons why it should be believed. You can be guaranteed I'll pull you up on it if you don't.

Michael...you are correct
- selliedjoup
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