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Old 06-20-2005, 01:04 PM   #1
PanAtheist
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"Gods" are imaginary "Beings" which are ridiculously asserted to "exist" and "live" and "sense" and "know things" and "take action", all WITHOUT PROCESSES.


We see that everything happens to have come about thanks to the action of processes and happenings and events.
(And we are part of an ongoing cascade of happenings, which is ever bringing new things about).
And how can things be any other way?!


Without processes and happenings and events, there can be NO new incidents, NO novelties, NO happenings, NO new places, NO alive-beings, NO aliveness, NO beginnings, NO experiencing, NO sensation, NO perceiving, NO ideas forming, NO actions, NO intentionally-bringing-anything-about!


So there can be no "Gods"!


To anyone who asks for me to expand on this, I say this >>> think about happenings >>> and think about any familiar item which exists >>> and think about how it came into existence (or how it could have possibly come into existence) >>> and think about how any new incident happens and about how any novelty occurs >>> and think about how realizations and ideas come about >>> and think about actions >>> and think about all the processes of cosmic and and geological and biological and experential and technological "evolution" >>> think about how we sense things through the machinery of our senses >>> think about the discovery of knowledge >>> think about how we bring things about through the entire machinery of our nerves-bones-fascia-and-muscles.


I am really happy and thrilled by this wee explanation!! :D :D


Now I am serenely happy.
And I am going to chill! :P



"Gods" are imaginary "Beings" which are ridiculously asserted to "exist" and "live" and "sense" and "know things" and "take action", all WITHOUT PROCESSES.

Healthy genes act as team-players. They are teamish!
Their winning plays are
salvations of an aliveness of which they are a part.
Only a fraction of genes are selfish/parasitic (and they
parasitize teams).
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Old 06-20-2005, 01:49 PM   #2
Rhinoqulous
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Praise Jeebus, Pan has discovered Process Philosophy. With Pan, I think there are nine of us now, maybe ten. Nobody seems to have ever heard of Process Philosophy, even though it's the best damn way to approach metaphysics in the history of the universe!!! I may be exaggerating, but I dig process philosophy over substance philosophy.

Rhinoq

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 06-20-2005, 02:28 PM   #3
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Quote:
PanAtheist wrote
"Gods" are imaginary "Beings" which are ridiculously asserted to "exist" and "live" and "take action", all WITHOUT PROCESSES.


We see that everything happens to have come about thanks to the action of processes and happenings and events.
(And we are part of an ongoing cascade of happenings, which is ever bringing new things about).
And how can things be any other way?!


Without processes and happenings and events, there can be NO new incidents, NO novelties, NO happenings, NO new places, NO alive-beings, NO aliveness, NO beginnings, NO experiencing, NO sensation, NO perceiving, NO ideas forming, NO actions, NO intentionally-bringing-anything-about!


So there can be no "Gods"!


To anyone who asks for me to expand on this, I say this >>> think about happenings >>> and think about any familiar item which exists >>> and think about how it came into existence (or how it could have possibly come into existence) >>> and think about how any new incident happens and about how any novelty occurs >>> and think about how realizations and ideas come about >>> and think about actions >>> and think about all the processes of cosmic and and geological and biological and educational and technological "evolution" >>> think about how we sense things through the machinery of our senses >>> think about the discovery of knowledge >>> think about how we bring things about through the entire machinery of our nerves-bones-fascia-and-muscles.


I am really happy and thrilled by this wee explanation!! :D :D


Now I am serenely happy.
And I am going to chill! :P



"Gods" are imaginary "Beings" which are ridiculously asserted to "exist" and "live" and "take action", all WITHOUT PROCESSES.
Wow. Excellent, Pan. Enjoy your chill, you deserve it.

I, OTOH, shall be digesting your tasty comments.

Ten

"Science and Mother Nature are in a marriage where Science is always surprised to come home and find Mother Nature blowing the neighbor." - Justin's Dad
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Old 06-20-2005, 02:39 PM   #4
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OK this sounds intresting, process philosophy, im going to give my educted guess to what is is now, read and try again.

Example 1. i learned how to stand, i then had to grab chippies so i had learend to walk to them. then i had to run to beat my sister up, that worked and i liked it so i learned how to play soccer and loved it, i could even dribble at the same time.

Is this a basic form of the process?

This sounds familiar, i had this thought in my head for awhile of how humanity only takes small steps(besides neil armstrong). because you really can not skip a step because this it doesn't work at all. its similar to how logic works.

Im just rambling now, im going to read, peace.

"We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself."
Carl Sagan
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Old 06-21-2005, 06:21 AM   #5
PanAtheist
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Thanks folks!
I am delighted that you like this!
Big thanks for sharing your appreciation :D

(And Rhino, thanks for the link.
I have read the first bit, and like the taste.
And I expect to read the rest of it shortly.)

Now I have to go chill again :lol:

Healthy genes act as team-players. They are teamish!
Their winning plays are
salvations of an aliveness of which they are a part.
Only a fraction of genes are selfish/parasitic (and they
parasitize teams).
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Old 06-21-2005, 10:00 AM   #6
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Pan, I think I follow your process argument, but you lose me when you move from that to saying that there can be no Gods. Can you explain what you mean. And, as an extra challenge, can you do that without using the word insane.
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Old 06-21-2005, 10:27 AM   #7
Rhinoqulous
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This thread reminded me of a book that I found at a little used bookstore a couple of month’s back that I just threw on my shelf and forgot about. It's The Phenomenon of Man by Teilhard de Chardin, and from what I gather it considers issues in process philosophy. Read the first 50 pages last night, the science is a little dated, but it could be good. I'll let you know if it's any good, Pan (and maybe Thomas would be interested as well?).

Rhinoq

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 06-21-2005, 06:56 PM   #8
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Pan, are you saying the concept of a god given to us by the Bible describes no processes, or that this is fundamental to the very concept of a god? That the important thing about a diety is not the physical existence (which is already ridiculous by definition) but the process (which is equally ridiculous as there can also be no evidence for a process by which a god works)?

I may simply be misunderstanding all of this, as I've never studied it before, but it does seem to make a lot of sense; however, I don't entirely see how such a position is objectively and concretely supportable. How is a proccess absolutely neccessary for an object or idea to exist (in logical sense; the physical, QM sense is intruiguing as well, but this is really a logical argument).

Oh, I don't think I'll be getting much sleep tonight.

Thanks, though :D
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Old 06-27-2005, 08:43 AM   #9
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AN INCIDENT OF NOVELTY HAS OCCURED!! :lol:


Thanks to some useful feedback I have made this easier to read, and to "get". :D :D


It is all about the NECESSITY, throughout EVERYTHING that EVER HAPPENS, of always having the requisite precipitating INCIDENTS to GENERATE EVERYTHING that shall then be brought about!


I hope you like this new attack! :D >>

************************************************** ***************************************


"GODS" are imaginary "Beings" which are ridiculously asserted to "exist" and "live" and "sense" and "know things" and "create" and "make things happen", ALL WITHOUT THE ESSENTIAL CASCADES OF INTERACTIONS AND INCIDENTS which are ESSENTIAL in bringing NEW things about.


In reality, we see that novelties happen to come about thanks to the interaction of elements.


And these incidents of interaction bring about new things, and these new things go on to bring about new new interactions and incidents, and these then bring about new new things, and so on, and so on ....


And we are surrounded by - and participate in (and are caught up in) - cascades of interactions and incidents, which, together, are ever bringing novelties about.


And how can reality be any other way?!


Without interactions, there shall be ZERO INCIDENTS of NOVELTY.


For example, without cascades of incidents NO stars would have arisen and burnt, and NO new atomic elements could have been generated, and NO planets would have congealed, and NO new atoms could have reacted together to form new chemicals which then changed their environment and each other and generated life - and NO aliveness could have arisen - and alive-beings would not have bred, and NO new alive-beings could have "evolved".


And without cascades of incidents there CAN BE NO sensing, NO perceiving, NO knowing, NO experiencing, NO ideas forming, NO intentions, NO actions being taken, NO intentionally making-anything-at-all happen! (let alone "miracles"!!!!)


And that means that without cascades of interactions and incidents, there can be no people, let alone "Gods"!


To anyone who asks for me to expand on this, I say this >>> think about incidents >>> and think about any real item that is familiar to you >>> and think about how it happened to come to exist (or how it probably came to exist) >>> and then think about how any new incident happens and about how *any* novelty occurs >>> and think about how our realizations and new ideas come about >>> and think about our actions, and all the actions of the wild elements of nature >>> and think about all the cascades of incidents and actions which did happen in cosmic "evolution" ... and in geological "evolution" ... and in biological "evolution" ... and in humanity's "evolution" ... and in an individual's "evolution" ... and in technological "evolution" >>> and think about how we come to sense and know each specific thing through the machinery of our senses >>> and think about how we discover each specific knowledge and realize each specific action >>> and think about how we bring anything about through the entire machinery of our nerves-bones-fascia-and-muscles.


************************************************** **************************************

It is all about the NECESSITY, throughout everything that ever happens, of essential INCIDENTS, which are needed to bring about any NEW effect. :D :D


"GODS" are imaginary "Beings" which are ridiculously asserted to "exist" and "live" and "sense" and "know things" and "create" and "make things happen", ALL WITHOUT THE ESSENTIAL CASCADES OF INTERACTIONS AND INCIDENTS which are ESSENTIAL in bringing new things about.


************************************************** **************************************

Now, back to chilling out for PanAtheist!! :D:cool:

And your feedback is, again, most welcome!!

(And great thanks to VOICE-of-Reason for helpful feedback on the first edition.)

************************************************** **************************************

Healthy genes act as team-players. They are teamish!
Their winning plays are
salvations of an aliveness of which they are a part.
Only a fraction of genes are selfish/parasitic (and they
parasitize teams).
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:38 AM   #10
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If you haven't yet, take a look at some of the features of quantum mechanics which relate to the observer, including Bohr's Copenhagen Interpretation, symmetry breaking and decoherence. Good stuff.

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Old 06-29-2005, 08:36 AM   #11
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I think people who try to link quantum mechanics with spirituality, psychic powers, etc., need to learn about decoherence. Especially those Ramtha freaks.

Rhinoq

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 06-30-2005, 02:30 AM   #12
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I'm curious about this. A lot of this argument rests on the idea that 'god' was not created by any sort of process or 'evolution' of events and elements. Do any modern day religions talk about where their god comes from? Isn't it mostly; and there was god!...what if the bible or Koran are the sequel to the whole story and the story of where 'god' came from is a prequel that we don't know about. Started out as a molecule and ended up as a mystical creature that could create life...just thinking outloud. Anybody have any thoughts on this?
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Old 06-30-2005, 04:18 AM   #13
Philboid Studge
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It occured to me -- me who knows diddly about Process Philosophy -- that PP could at least help us get a grip on what 'time' is. Sure enough, Rhinoq's
link leads us to the three principal factors of PP, #2 of which is "That this complex has a certain temporal coherence and unity, and that processes accordingly have an ineliminably temporal dimension."

P.S. Who the hell coined the word 'ineliminably'? It doesn't seem to appear in real dictionaries, and a Big Poppa Google search turns up only philosophy sites. You people can't just start making words up out of thin air, god dammit.

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Old 06-30-2005, 07:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
P.S. Who the hell coined the word 'ineliminably'? It doesn't seem to appear in real dictionaries, and a Big Poppa Google search turns up only philosophy sites. You people can't just start making words up out of thin air, god dammit.
Yes we can, we've been doing it for thousands of years. Don't worry, formulating new-fangled terminology pertains to non-overlapping magisteria within particular doxastic systems. :D

Rhinoq

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 06-30-2005, 11:01 AM   #15
Rhinoqulous
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Quote:
Philboid Studge wrote
It occured to me -- me who knows diddly about Process Philosophy -- that PP could at least help us get a grip on what 'time' is. Sure enough, Rhinoq's
link leads us to the three principal factors of PP, #2 of which is "That this complex has a certain temporal coherence and unity, and that processes accordingly have an ineliminably temporal dimension."
I think PP has the best chance of making sense of time, in that processes necessarily contain "durations". If we start viewing the world in terms of "processes" and "events" as opposed to "objects", we are including time within our description of reality, and many absurd and down-right silly philosophical situations are avoided (such as the concept of "empty" time). As for the ontological status of time (what "time" really is, and the nature of past, present and future), I think PP falls closest to a "Presentist" theory, where what "exists" as time is a current duration (the "now"). But this is just my insane rambling.

Rhinoq

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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