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Old 12-16-2009, 09:56 AM   #1966
Irreligious
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No, the facts are equally available to all of us. The stories that go above and beyond the facts are not part of your heritage at all. We don't have a *better* story, we have a story.

Of course, you are very comfortable in your Gradgrindian philosophy and there's nothing wrong with that.
Stories that go "above and beyond" the facts? What does that mean in context? How can you go "above and beyond" what is knowable?


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thomastwo wrote
I was wrong. You do have a story after all. This idea that "we" atheists ( hang on I thought you weren't a community? ) are the only educators and proponents of evolution is laughable. Perhaps you can just about get that view to hold in the US, but even then it's tenuous at best.

As you note, us religious types will always go above and beyond the facts and look for the link to the meaning and purpose of life. We find it enriches our existence.
Thomastwo, "we" atheist here, obviously, make up something of a community on this forum, which you appear to resent greatly as evidenced by your very presence here.

However, there is no mass organized effort to recruit and indoctrinate atheists in the outside world.

Again, I have to ask what you mean by going "above and beyond the facts?" On it's face, it makes no sense. You don't know what you can't know. However, you can believe anything you like.

I, personally, find it strange for one to be a proponent of evolutionary biology while simultaneously holding a belief in the existence of an anthropomorphic god, but I readily acknowledge that there are many who do, even if those divergent points of view appear incompatible to me.

By the way, you're not contradicting Sternwallow here by pointing out how enriched you are by summoning a cosmic purpose for your existence out of thin air. As he said, you do it because it brings you comfort, not because you actually know that the cosmos is conscious of your existence.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:27 AM   #1967
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Stories that go "above and beyond" the facts? What does that mean in context? How can you go "above and beyond" what is knowable?
There is a spark of creativity that is required to move from the facts we know towards the unknown. That is present in all worthwhile human endeavour. There is always a state of unknowing and guessing towards what might be. It happens in science in a controlled way when making hypotheses. It happens in philosophy when making assumptions about morality and purpose and meaning. It happens in "extreme philosophy" (aka religion) when making guesses about how things came to be.

These stories go above and beyond the facts. They help make sense of what we see but cannot explain. They help provide context for our lives and moralities and relationships.




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Irreligious wrote View Post
Thomastwo, "we" atheist here, obviously, make up something of a community on this forum, which you appear to resent greatly as evidenced by your very presence here.

However, there is no mass organized effort to recruit and indoctrinate atheists in the outside world.
I don't resent you at all. My presence here is driven by two things. First, I think atheists present a good critique of religion and help to sharpen what I think. Secondly, I think that you hold some half-truths and lies in your beliefs. I'd like to provide contrary information that you might want to consider.

I only poke at the idea of atheist community because it seems you folks alternately claim it and deny it as it suits you.

As for mass efforts to recruit atheists, your heros Dawkins, Dennet, Myers and Hitchens are devoting their careers and publishing efforts to do just that.

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Again, I have to ask what you mean by going "above and beyond the facts?" On it's face, it makes no sense. You don't know what you can't know. However, you can believe anything you like.
Hopefully my explanation made some sense. We have to live with unknowing and we all have different ways of dealing with that.

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I, personally, find it strange for one to be a proponent of evolutionary biology while simultaneously holding a belief in the existence of an anthropomorphic god, but I readily acknowledge that there are many who do, even if those divergent points of view appear incompatible to me.

By the way, you're not contradicting Sternwallow here by pointing out how enriched you are by summoning a cosmic purpose for your existence out of thin air. As he said, you do it because it brings you comfort, not because you actually know that the cosmos is conscious of your existence.
Yes, this isnt about knowledge in the sense of empirical facts. It's about a story that informs the way we live in community. It emphasises what we do and how we relate to other people rather than what we know.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:56 AM   #1968
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There is a spark of creativity that is required to move from the facts we know towards the unknown. That is present in all worthwhile human endeavour. There is always a state of unknowing and guessing towards what might be. It happens in science in a controlled way when making hypotheses. It happens in philosophy when making assumptions about morality and purpose and meaning. It happens in "extreme philosophy" (aka religion) when making guesses about how things came to be.

These stories go above and beyond the facts. They help make sense of what we see but cannot explain. They help provide context for our lives and moralities and relationships.
The problem, as I see it, is that there no control mechanism for speculating about intangible, anthropomorphic gods. The sky's the limit on that front.

I'm not trying to keep you from dreaming and hypothesizing, thomas. It's what we humans do. However, there is no getting around the fact that you don't know what you can't.

Personally, I'm not interested in your dreams; I have my own.

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I don't resent you at all. My presence here is driven by two things. First, I think atheists present a good critique of religion and help to sharpen what I think.
I would dearly love some evidence of this claim, because I don't recall one instance in which you have ever conceded to an atheist's critique of your religion here. If you're any type of evangelical, I suspect you're here, possibily, to hone your skills at indoctrinating fence-sitters. I mean, it helps to know some of the bases for atheists' skepticism if you're going to work around them, right?

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Secondly, I think that you hold some half-truths and lies in your beliefs. I'd like to provide contrary information that you might want to consider.
Could you be more specific and provide a couple of examples of these half-truths and lies you say we're promoting? The way I see it, the dialog is mostly one-sided since you're the one providing all the information. We're the ones who are reduced to challenging your claims. I don't claim to know that this is a god or a lochness monster or anything that is inherently unverifiable.

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I only poke at the idea of atheist community because it seems you folks alternately claim it and deny it as it suits you.
And I suppose it suits you to be entirely disingenuous about the whole matter and pretend that we're a competing religion with our own god and tenets.

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thomastwo wrote
As for mass efforts to recruit atheists, your heros Dawkins, Dennet, Myers and Hitchens are devoting their careers and publishing efforts to do just that.
They're not recruiting; they're challenging your unfounded assertions about reality. Though I do understand why that pisses you off.

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thomastwo wrote
Hopefully my explanation made some sense. We have to live with unknowing and we all have different ways of dealing with that.
I know we have live with the unknowable. That's my point.

I hope you understand that I don't have a problem with you believing whatever you need to believe to get you through this life. It's not my business and I don't want it to be my business on any level. I don't want to be preached at or to be beholden to other people's gods. That's all.

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thomastwo wrote
Yes, this isnt about knowledge in the sense of empirical facts. It's about a story that informs the way we live in community. It emphasises what we do and how we relate to other people rather than what we know.
Live your life. But when others start telling me their view of life and how it should pertain to the rest of humanity, all I'm interested in is the facts.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
--Ella Wheeler Wilcox
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Old 12-16-2009, 12:43 PM   #1969
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There is a spark of creativity that is required to move from the facts we know towards the unknown. It happens in "extreme philosophy" (aka religion) when making guesses about how things came to be.
It's called "making shit up" and has little to do with science because the shit you assholes make up cannot be tested, only repeated.

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Old 12-16-2009, 04:05 PM   #1970
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Anyway brother Atheist,
Sevens. You are nowhere near an atheist. Not in the same league. Not playing the same game. Nothing you beleive could ever be considered atheist or freethinking.

What you have is a lack of beleif in monotheistic religions replacing that beleif with numerology and pattern seeking controlled by woo woo powers from beyond.

Never sully the name atheist with your brand of bone-strirring, tea reading junk non-science.

Just stick a mystical hat on your head and chant the seven 222's or whatever mad crazy batshit you like. Just do it far away from people who use logic and reason. Your nutso-germs might infect.

"If you can wait 2000 years for Mr Christ, I can wait 19 years for John Frum" High Preist :- Church of John Frum 1952
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:21 PM   #1971
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I only poke at the idea of atheist community because it seems you folks alternately claim it and deny it as it suits you.

As for mass efforts to recruit atheists, your heros Dawkins, Dennet, Myers and Hitchens are devoting their careers and publishing efforts to do just that.
Very clever Thomas, if you meant it. (reads like it was stolen from somewhere).
Intelligent opinion can coincide without collusion. Unlike your retarded answer to everything.

thank goodness he's on our side
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:27 AM   #1972
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I know there will be mock but I feel there is something good here for all of us including the Atheist.

I have a gut feeling that there will be a marriage of Space and us and a feast or a celebration and the Atheist is invited.

I invite the Atheist to this feast because he is my friend and I like to share with my friends.

Sevens
Friendship is a two-way proposition and you are one side short. I am picky about who I feast with.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:29 AM   #1973
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Because of you but anyway the volcano in the phillipines have the same number patterns to.

Sevens
"... same number of patterns to" do what?

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:13 PM   #1974
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Sevens. You are nowhere near an atheist. Not in the same league. Not playing the same game. Nothing you beleive could ever be considered atheist or freethinking.

What you have is a lack of beleif in monotheistic religions replacing that beleif with numerology and pattern seeking controlled by woo woo powers from beyond.

Never sully the name atheist with your brand of bone-strirring, tea reading junk non-science.

Just stick a mystical hat on your head and chant the seven 222's or whatever mad crazy batshit you like. Just do it far away from people who use logic and reason. Your nutso-germs might infect.
Ah Come on Barney,

I thought it was pretty good, its all based on the scientific record and and religion and anything that is useful. I think its somewhat interesting that when I make the same method of calculation I come up with common results that I discover and recognize which seems to reflect common numbers that I see in the journey from the beginnings. Even Earthquakes and Volcanoes in there numbers seem to reflect the same number patterns using the same calculation.

I think all things can be used for good in a oneness, I believe all things including religion must be upgraded pointing to the Urantia Book harmonised with the bible harmonised with all things, knowledge from all quarters can be used to make a point. I believe a point is being made in that God exists and he is personal and has a personality and is open for friendship with anyone.

That's the true religion, the religion of the soul in friendship with the greater inhabited Universe on all levels and with fellow man. The brotherly love aspect encompassing all man no matter who he is and in harmony with the Universal Forces of the Universal Government and those representative of it. Representative of the true message of Jesus, the Sovereign of this Universe, a Paradise Son, a fellow Sevenfold creator son of the Father in Paradise.

The whole Universe is a big family who is friendly and is on the side of every individual if he chooses.

All the best Barney

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Old 12-18-2009, 02:25 PM   #1975
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"... same number of patterns to" do what?
Its the strangest thing I see common numbers in the measurement of things whether it be time, distance, depth, frequency, spin rates and how many. I add the whole numbers in in the measurement, where all of the time I come up with either 222 or 555 or 77 and many other things.

I reckon things would have to be precise and purposeful in the production to achieve these results,

All these number commonalities after calculation and in the result of measurement itself occur in

The journey from beginnings
The crop circles
Jane Lead
The Adventures of Magnetar
Earthquakes
Volcanoes

Lately I've noticed the Earthquakes have been mild.

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Old 12-18-2009, 02:33 PM   #1976
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There is a spark of creativity that is required to move from the facts we know towards the unknown. That is present in all worthwhile human endeavour. There is always a state of unknowing and guessing towards what might be. It happens in science in a controlled way when making hypotheses. It happens in philosophy when making assumptions about morality and purpose and meaning. It happens in "extreme philosophy" (aka religion) when making guesses about how things came to be.

These stories go above and beyond the facts. They help make sense of what we see but cannot explain. They help provide context for our lives and moralities and relationships.






I don't resent you at all. My presence here is driven by two things. First, I think atheists present a good critique of religion and help to sharpen what I think. Secondly, I think that you hold some half-truths and lies in your beliefs. I'd like to provide contrary information that you might want to consider.

I only poke at the idea of atheist community because it seems you folks alternately claim it and deny it as it suits you.

As for mass efforts to recruit atheists, your heros Dawkins, Dennet, Myers and Hitchens are devoting their careers and publishing efforts to do just that.



Hopefully my explanation made some sense. We have to live with unknowing and we all have different ways of dealing with that.



Yes, this isnt about knowledge in the sense of empirical facts. It's about a story that informs the way we live in community. It emphasises what we do and how we relate to other people rather than what we know.
Thomas Two,

Thanks for your contribution, I thought what you wrote just made all sense to me, I feel quite blessed and uplifted by your response and I see all sense in the way you see things.

All the best
Sevens
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:42 PM   #1977
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Friendship is a two-way proposition and you are one side short. I am picky about who I feast with.
III make sure there is prickly pear on the feast table in the Union of Space, Intelligence and Spirit encompassing the greater Universe and this Planet.

The Union of Space-Time and Eternity in Union through a light without heat flash of time.

Sevens
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:56 PM   #1978
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III make sure there is prickly pear on the feast table in the Union of Space, Intelligence and Spirit encompassing the greater Universe and this Planet.

The Union of Space-Time and Eternity in Union through a light without heat flash of time.

Sevens
have you tried to eat magical dust again, only to find it was just mould? You is a bat shit crazy mother fucker, innit.

Consider the Spatial Hyperspherical Intergalactic Transmogrification theory before you worry about evil spirits

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Old 12-18-2009, 03:00 PM   #1979
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Its is quite possible that there will be those who may experience of the new evolution or revelation of the Absonite in the evolution of time/Space and Eternity.

The oneness of two dimensions in a witness, a huge witness in an event that would be studied for years and years to work understand the science behind it.

But I know its related to the Spiritual dominance of manifestation of Energy and Matter where Energy and matter is one in Paradise but way out here in time space it appears to be quite opposite to each other but harmonised as we know.

Just a thought, there could be more to this for the benefit of ourselves.


For the Ancients of Days to reveal as seen in the Bible something like that would have to happen before our eyes. It would be totally different to anything you have ever seen. The whole Universe is full of personality and the Magnetars is just another expression of the Universe and its personality but Personality is realm of the Father himself and he would be spontaneous as like in this research in the spontaneity of thought and idea. All those characteristics do come from somewhere!

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Old 12-18-2009, 03:06 PM   #1980
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Its is quite possible that there will be those who may experience of the new evolution or revelation of the Absonite in the evolution of time/Space and Eternity.

The oneness of two dimensions in a witness, a huge witness in an event that would be studied for years and years to work understand the science behind it.

But I know its related to the Spiritual dominance of manifestation of Energy and Matter where Energy and matter is one in Paradise but way out here in time space it appears to be quite opposite to each other but harmonised as we know.

Just a thought, there could be more to this for the benefit of ourselves.


For the Ancients of Days to reveal as seen in the Bible something like that would have to happen before our eyes. It would be totally different to anything you have ever seen. The whole Universe is full of personality and the Magnetars is just another expression of the Universe and its personality but Personality is realm of the Father himself and he would be spontaneous as like in this research in the spontaneity of thought and idea. All those characteristics do come from somewhere!

Sevens
Klaatu barada nikto !! Ducunt volentem, fata nolentem trahunt !

Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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