US Islamic in 20 years? Seems a little alarmist.

Waddlie wrote

This is one of the most retarded posts I've seen on this forum in a very long time. I was gonna pick it apart, dumfuck statement by dumbfuck statement, but if there's one thing I've learned from reading this forum, it's "don't try to reason with retards."

http://www.tomfoolery.nl/images/wanker.jpg

And I think your point of view is retarded. If you think secularism is going to confront uislam I think you are completely wrong. it'll be the chistards that do.

Bad enough we have 2000 years of that shit--we need to start importing a 1400 year old vintage.

Fuck em.

[nkb]

genius2687 wrote

As long as we can live out the next 60 years of our lives without Sharia.

So far countries like Japan or South Korea seem to be in good shape since they don't have many Muslims within their country. If these countries start accepting immigrants from Bangledesh as a source of cheap labor though to help their economies, they'll be destroyed by Islam in 20-40 years or so. Japan is pretty opposed to outside immigration which can hurt them economically but at least allows them to hold onto their secular culture.

The other refuge is South and Central America. Mostly Catholic. And so far the birthrates seem to be high enough that even if Muslim immigrants started to enter the country, they could compete with them. For a while anyway. (3 children per Latin American woman vs 6 per Muslim woman.)

Forget Western Europe. I think they're going to turn into Albania or Bosnia in less than 20 years. Eastern Europe is smarter, but it too is beginning to see Muslim immigrants, so I'd say give them 30-40 years before chaos occurs. (Note that their secular destruction could accelerate alot faster with Turkey admitted to the EU when you have 50 million Muslims free to travel to the EU countries).

There are many points I can attack, but let me give you a specific example of why your logic doesn't hold up.

Germany (originally West Germany) allowed a large number of guest workers to come into the country, to do the jobs that Germans didn't want to do. This started in the 1960s. The majority came from the former Yugoslavia (parts Muslim) and Turkey (almost entirely Muslim). There are currently about 2.5 million Turks living in Germany, either as citizens, permanent residents, or temporary workers.
After about 40 years, there are still no Sharia laws in Germany. Could you please explain that?

Oh, and what ocmpoma said.

[nkb]

Rocketman the Sequel wrote

And I think your point of view is retarded. If you think secularism is going to confront uislam I think you are completely wrong. it'll be the chistards that do.

Bad enough we have 2000 years of that shit--we need to start importing a 1400 year old vintage.

Fuck em.

It's not a question of confrontation between secularism and Islam. It's an assimilation issue.

The flow of immigrants is not infinite, not every Muslim immigrant wants Sharia law, and many of them will enjoy the new personal freedoms, and would not want to go back to repressive rules.

nkb wrote

After about 40 years, there are still no Sharia laws in Germany. Could you please explain that?

Not yet anyway. That's because Muslims are still only about 5% or so in Germany. That doesn't mean that there will be some in the future.

But even though there are no laws, there is still significant intimidation by Muslim groups.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/26/news/germany.php

[Demigod79]

genius2687 wrote

Not yet anyway. That's because Muslims are still only about 5% or so in Germany. That doesn't mean that there will be some in the future.

But even though there are no laws, there is still significant intimidation by Muslim groups.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/26/news/germany.php

The point is that your predictions are wildly inaccurate and you have provided no evidence to support it. Judging by the way you're talking you seem to think that all law makers in secular nations will simply bow down to muslim pressures and allow them to freely overturn the supreme law of the land in a few decades. What you seem to be ignoring are the immense cultural pressures upon immigrants, the legal barriers that prevent such things, and the fact that not all muslims are fundies. Many immigrants assimilate into their surrounding cultures (particularly the second-generation and beyond) and even those who don't assimilate learn to live within laws and culture of their host nation. In fact, even among fundies only a small portion of them desire to dominate the politics and laws of their nation (they are called 'dominionists' and they are very few in number).

The vast majority of Americans are Christians. There is also a very large number of fundamentalists in the USA and many of them have powerful political connections. They have tremendous influence on virtually everything in American society, from education to laws to theme parks. And yet, despite all this America is still a secular nation and the American constitution is in no threat of being overturned. Furthermore, those who actually desire to see this change (the dominionists) are a small, minor sect within the greater fundamentalist community. Unless America is thrown into a cataclysmic national crisis it will never be a Christian nation. Therefore, the idea of european countries in times of peace and prosperity adopting sharia law in a few decades because of a few muslim immigrants and their descendants is outrageous. Judges and law makers might make a few exceptions here and there to accommodate religion but to change the entire political system requires something much bigger (note that the Nazis only got into power in Germany because the country was in complete economic chaos).

[nkb]

genius2687 wrote

Not yet anyway. That's because Muslims are still only about 5% or so in Germany. That doesn't mean that there will be some in the future.

But even though there are no laws, there is still significant intimidation by Muslim groups.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/26/news/germany.php

Yes, that's quite significant. :rolleyes: That's practically Sharia law.

[Sternwallow]

Demigod79 wrote

...Therefore, the idea of european countries in times of peace and prosperity adopting sharia law in a few decades because of a few muslim immigrants and their descendants is outrageous. Judges and law makers might make a few exceptions here and there to accommodate religion but to change the entire political system requires something much bigger (note that the Nazis only got into power in Germany because the country was in complete economic chaos).

Don't you think that, knowing this, the Muslim communities, either deliberately or incidentally by their corruption, will bring the very economic chaos you describe? Then the overthrow of the constitution, as a solution to the countries problems would seem much less far fetched, again as in Germany?

[godless]

Waddlie wrote

You sound like Bush talking about Iraq and WMD in 2003. You've already decided on your viewpoint and are now desperately looking for evidence to back it up. Perhaps you might like to start drawing your conclusions having considered the evidence, rather than basing them on prejudice.

I am not desperately looking for evidence. My initial post was concerning muslim majorities & the likelihood they would try to bring in elements of Sharia Law. Gary M cited Turkey & Albania as majority Muslim nations that do not have Sharia Law.

I confess to having very little knoweldge of both these countries, & googled 'Turkey adultery laws' as I suspected there would be something there. There was, as was with Albania & I posted honestly that the laws were on the books but not being enforced.

Further I posted reference to the fact that as recently as 2004 a serious push was made in Turkey for this law, which carries penalty of death to be re-introduced.

This is the point us 'islamaphobes' are making. ie Once a significant % of a country is muslim there will be a push for Sharia elements in the law.

I am prejudicial against religion, & I am the first to admit it. Whilst I don't judge people on the basis of their skin colour, sexual preference, gender etc. I do judge people on their views. If you feel I should be ashamed of this, then look in the mirror, as you are also prejudicial against me because of my views!

Further I challenge you that it is much more difficult for you to fully know my views & have a fair representation of me as a person from one post, than it is for me to know the views of a person who claims to be a Muslim, Christian or any other brand of theist.

[nkb]

Sternwallow wrote

Don't you think that, knowing this, the Muslim communities, either deliberately or incidentally by their corruption, will bring the very economic chaos you describe? Then the overthrow of the constitution, as a solution to the countries problems would seem much less far fetched, again as in Germany?

Are we going into full-blown conspiracy theory territory here?

Do some fanatic Muslims have plans to throw secular Western countries into chaos through any means necessary? Sure! Do they have any chance of ever doing it? Highly improbable.

While I agree that all countries should stay vigilant against any attempts at trying to impose non-secular laws (of any form, not just Islamic), I just don't see it as a viable threat. I'm far more worried about the Jeetards chipping away at the Constitution than anyone else.

[nkb]

godless wrote

This is the point us 'islamaphobes' are making. ie Once a significant % of a country is muslim there will be a push for Sharia elements in the law.

Yet, by your own admission, a country that is 99% Muslim (Turkey), despite fundamentalists' best efforts, still can't get Sharia law passed.
If they can't get it done in Turkey, what makes you think that a Muslim minority can get it done in another country?

Do you see where us anti-alarmists are coming from?

[a different tim]

I have to say that the Muslims I actually know (which, admittedly, is not very many) are not spending all their time plotting how to overthrow democracy via economic chaos. They tend to be more concerned with making a living and feeding their families. Admittedly some of them do attempt to live up to some of the dictates of their absurd religion.

It isn't Muslims banning stem cell research or pushing to strike down Roe V Wade, or if they are, they aren't the main political motor behind these religiously inspired changes in law.

I've also taught in schools with a majority Muslim catchment (as well as Catholic schools and a Jewish school). Most of the students were mainly concerned with Myspace, instant messaging, and giggling at the presence of the opposite sex. As this was some years ago I suppose they are now mainly concerned with Bebo, Youtube and giggling. This is obviously a major change in Muslim attitudes and a terrible threat to us all.

[nkb]

genius2687 wrote

There is some growing resistance to this in Europe, America, Australia, but at this point it seems that the Muslims are still on the winning side in terms of slowly overturning secular laws in favor of Islamic law.

Later, genius2687 wrote

But even though there are no laws, there is still significant intimidation by Muslim groups.

So, are you ready to retract the above bolded claim?

Ok so there really aren't any Islamic laws on the books yet so perhaps what I initially stated was not as accurate. I still hold onto the rest of my argument though.

thing posted twice. see below

godless wrote

I am prejudicial against religion, & I am the first to admit it. Whilst I don't judge people on the basis of their skin colour, sexual preference, gender etc. I do judge people on their views. If you feel I should be ashamed of this, then look in the mirror, as you are also prejudicial against me because of my views!

That is an excellent statement. I agree wholeheartedly.