Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-17-2017, 09:04 PM   #1
Andrew66
Obsessed Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,382
Simplified argument for a God's existence

God is herein defined by the following characteristics:
An indesructible, maximally powerful and intelligent being.

1) Change is eternal. (if at any time the sum total of existence did not have the potential to change - then we would be "stuck" in a "frozen" state - which clearly isn't the case).
2) Existence has therefore experienced an infinite number of changes of state over an infinite temporal period.
3) By natural selection, beings of varying intelligence, resilience and power have arisen and became extinct.
4) Over an infinite period of time, eventually, an entity will have evolved to a threshold point whereby it became indestructible.
5) It is likely that such an indestructible being is extremely (if not maximally) powerful and intelligent.
6) Such indestructible being meets conditions coincident with what humans have declared as God.

Note, importantly the above argument does not predict necessarily a good or evil God.

Note, the above argument does not necessarily support that such God ever revealed itself to humans.
Andrew66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 03:13 AM   #2
Kinich Ahau
Obsessed Member
 
Kinich Ahau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Great Ocean Road
Posts: 2,899
You obviously read too many comics.

Once you are dead, you are nothing. Graffito, Pompeii
Kinich Ahau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 06:29 AM   #3
Smellyoldgit
Stinkin' Mod
 
Smellyoldgit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Britland
Posts: 13,532
Ooo, I'm really looking forward to the evidence part - and where exactly Jesus sits in this wonderful piece of drunken conjecture.

Stop the Holy See men!
Smellyoldgit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2017, 08:44 PM   #4
Andrew66
Obsessed Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,382
Does the process of Natural Selection, count as evidence?
Jesus does not factor in to the argument at all.
Andrew66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 05:27 AM   #5
Smellyoldgit
Stinkin' Mod
 
Smellyoldgit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Britland
Posts: 13,532
Natural Selection is part of the scientific Theory of Evolution, which contributes to the explanation of the diversity of life on our single tiny planet, it is not guided and does not predict. So yes, you can attribute any dreamed up characteristics to future stages of evolutionary development to suit your purpose, but those dreams will remain firmly in the realm of science fiction.

Stop the Holy See men!
Smellyoldgit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 08:32 AM   #6
Andrew66
Obsessed Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,382
Either over an infinite period of time
1) An indestructible being, incapable of being destroyed by anything else in the universe (or multiverse, whatever) will evolve., or
2) An indestructible being, incapable of being destroyed by anything else in the universe (or multiverse, whatever) will not evolve.
If posit 2, that would mean that there is always a future possibility that another force could be more powerful , cunnings, stronger that a candidate evolved being etc.
I suspect posit 1 makes sense if the universe/multiverse is a closed system - with finite members. Then one being could take charge.
I suspect posit 2 makes sense if the universe/multiverse is an open, infinite system - because there could always be something stronger around the corner.
But if posit 2 - then this opens another argument - if there is an infinite sized universe with infinite stuff existing over infinite time, by law of chance it is predicted that there will be at least one pretty damned strong being out there.
From our perspective, we are likely stuck with a God like figure out there - like "Que" from Star Trek at least - don't you think?
Andrew66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 09:46 AM   #7
Kinich Ahau
Obsessed Member
 
Kinich Ahau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Great Ocean Road
Posts: 2,899
Que?

Once you are dead, you are nothing. Graffito, Pompeii
Kinich Ahau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 11:09 AM   #8
Smellyoldgit
Stinkin' Mod
 
Smellyoldgit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Britland
Posts: 13,532
God's a turtle - all the way up!

Stop the Holy See men!
Smellyoldgit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 11:46 AM   #9
Sinfidel
Obsessed Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
Either over an infinite period of time
Infinity is a mathematical construct. What evidence do you have that it exists in reality?
If your process requires an infinity of time, iy can never happen, since the end of infinity will never arrive.

Quote:
1) An indestructible being, incapable of being destroyed by anything else in the universe (or multiverse, whatever) will evolve., or
2) An indestructible being, incapable of being destroyed by anything else in the universe (or multiverse, whatever) will not evolve.
LOL! Do tell us how evolution is limited to TWO choices! GUFFAW!

Quote:
If posit 2, that would mean that there is always a future possibility that another force could be more powerful , cunnings, stronger that a candidate evolved being etc.
I suspect posit 1 makes sense if the universe/multiverse is a closed system - with finite members. Then one being could take charge.
And exactly why could a Committee not take charge?


Quote:
I suspect posit 2 makes sense if the universe/multiverse is an open, infinite system - because there could always be something stronger around the corner.
But if posit 2 - then this opens another argument - if there is an infinite sized universe with infinite stuff existing over infinite time, by law of chance it is predicted that there will be at least one pretty damned strong being out there.
From our perspective, we are likely stuck with a God like figure out there - like "Que" from Star Trek at least -
If you dare to look around the Universe, you might notice that nature doesn't do one-offs. DUH.

Quote:
don't you think?
Yes, but obviously you don't.

Use foolproof airtight logic on a mind that's closed and you're dead. - William J. Reilly, Opening Closed Minds
Sinfidel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 12:04 PM   #10
Andrew66
Obsessed Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,382
Two choices, yes - I have constructed the statement as a true dichotomy, either one is true or the other.
That infinity actual exists.. in reality?? - I don't think this is something that can be proved one way or another... - alas we are left only to consider the prospect.
However it is at least equally hard to imagine infinity not existing.
If for example the universe simply popped into existence from non existence, without prior cause - then you could imagine a finite model (the universe may have existed fro a finite time, and may have finite size and mass etc.) - however how the heck does something pop out of a true non-existence (having now laws, nothing).
Before you start quoting Lawrence Krause remember, true non-existence cannot have potential to do anything. Even random quantum fluctuations must arise from a prior construct.
I agree, a committee or group of individuals may have taken charge - I have no problem with that.
Andrew66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2017, 09:31 AM   #11
Davin
Obsessed Member
 
Davin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: One the armpits of the U.S. of A.
Posts: 2,854
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
God is herein defined by the following characteristics:
An indesructible, maximally powerful and intelligent being.
[...]
I mean, I'd love see some evidence, but there's a still a problem with the argument even if we accept it as true.

In that an infinite amount of states of matter is still happening, so the supposed god might still be an infinite amount of time away from existing.

Also, that's not how evolution works.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.
Davin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2017, 11:11 AM   #12
Andrew66
Obsessed Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,382
Hi Davin, long time no write!

I'm not sure what is your objection to my use of the process of evolution in my argument. We know that the process of evolution by natural selection can happen - our own world is evidence of this. So given a vast universe over an infinite period of time evolution may have played out in other worlds - eventually leading to (again over an eternity) a natural selected - indestructible being.

I appreciate your view that as infinite past time in my proposal is still growing - then the ultimate being may still come about or evolve in the future.

However, I argue that if the universe is a closed non-infinite system (i.e. there is finite stuff within it) then an evolved or species being may have from the past met a "threshold" level were nothing within the closed system could ever defeat or destroy it .

If the universe is open - limitless (infinite stuff) then I agree the argument becomes weaker as its harder to argue the merits of such a threshold.

However if universe is infinite in size and capacity, then the likelihood of at least one if not many extremely powerful - god like beings (from our perspective) is highly likely, by law of averages.

So either way you slice it (universe open or closed), there seems to be a very good chance that there is some kind of intelligent life form out there that is very very powerful (certainly more powerful than us).
Andrew66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2017, 03:17 PM   #13
Sinfidel
Obsessed Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
I'm not sure what is your objection to my use of the process of evolution in my argument. We know that the process of evolution by natural selection can happen - our own world is evidence of this. So given a vast universe over an infinite period of time evolution may have played out in other worlds - eventually leading to (again over an eternity) a natural selected - indestructible being.
Do enlighten us just how a single non-material eternal being which does not reproduce
( well, ostensibly once) EVOLVES?

Use foolproof airtight logic on a mind that's closed and you're dead. - William J. Reilly, Opening Closed Minds
Sinfidel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2017, 10:22 AM   #14
Davin
Obsessed Member
 
Davin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: One the armpits of the U.S. of A.
Posts: 2,854
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
Hi Davin, long time no write!

I'm not sure what is your objection to my use of the process of evolution in my argument. We know that the process of evolution by natural selection can happen - our own world is evidence of this. So given a vast universe over an infinite period of time evolution may have played out in other worlds - eventually leading to (again over an eternity) a natural selected - indestructible being.
Evolution doesn't lead anywhere. Also, it requires reproduction with mutations. Also, how would it get to be indestructible? That would require another thing to evolve that would be almost an equal level of ability to destroy... you know to keep the selection gearing towards an indestructible being. And who would "win" this "battle?" We could end up with a super destroying being that can destroy anything but not necessarily indestructible.

The other problem, is that you would not end up with one being, you'd end up with an entire species of indestructible beings. Because, you know, that's how evolution works.

Quote:
Andrew66 wrote
I appreciate your view that as infinite past time in my proposal is still growing - then the ultimate being may still come about or evolve in the future.

However, I argue that if the universe is a closed non-infinite system (i.e. there is finite stuff within it) then an evolved or species being may have from the past met a "threshold" level were nothing within the closed system could ever defeat or destroy it .

If the universe is open - limitless (infinite stuff) then I agree the argument becomes weaker as its harder to argue the merits of such a threshold.
I argue that with that much unsurety in the argument, that it's quite weak on it's own.

Quote:
Andrew66 wrote
However if universe is infinite in size and capacity, then the likelihood of at least one if not many extremely powerful - god like beings (from our perspective) is highly likely, by law of averages.
This is a misuse of the law of averages. The law of averages requires subjects to average against. We don't know if such powerful beings are even remotely possible, just like no matter how many infinities you want to stack up, a square circle is not going to happen. Go ahead, multiply infinity by infinity and there still won't be any square circles.

Quote:
Andrew66 wrote
So either way you slice it (universe open or closed), there seems to be a very good chance that there is some kind of intelligent life form out there that is very very powerful (certainly more powerful than us).
I think you need to review your logic and patch up those holes before you start sounding silly.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.
Davin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2017, 08:00 AM   #15
Sinfidel
Obsessed Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote View Post
Two choices, yes - I have constructed the statement as a true dichotomy, either one is true or the other.
That infinity actual exists.. in reality?? - I don't think this is something that can be proved one way or another... - alas we are left only to consider the prospect.
However it is at least equally hard to imagine infinity not existing.
If for example the universe simply popped into existence from non existence, without prior cause - then you could imagine a finite model (the universe may have existed fro a finite time, and may have finite size and mass etc.) - however how the heck does something pop out of a true non-existence (having now laws, nothing).
Before you start quoting Lawrence Krause remember, true non-existence cannot have potential to do anything. Even random quantum fluctuations must arise from a prior construct.
A false dilemma is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option.

- Wikipedia

Use foolproof airtight logic on a mind that's closed and you're dead. - William J. Reilly, Opening Closed Minds
Sinfidel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:26 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin - Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2000 - , Raving Atheists [dot] com frequency-supranational frequency-supranational