01-07-2018, 02:48 PM
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#2731
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,734
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Quote:
Andrew66 wrote
Fuck again how stooopid your are, there is no guarantee that everyone who participated in the study recieved prayer nitwit.
Go to University!
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Read what I wrote you tit.
I knew that you couldn't write - now, I suspect, your powers of comprehension are shot to shit too.
What a waste of space you are.
Oh, and cut that weird shit out.
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01-07-2018, 02:50 PM
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#2732
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,734
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Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
Hertz,
Let me speak it in therms you can understand. Fuck off, you cunt, atheist-tard.
Your stupid posts are worthless.
Now run along and play on the main forum. Get the hell of this site that you promised to Smelly the drunken mod witha whiskey bottle stuck up his ass warned you to do. (Of course he himself can't do it but what can you do?)
JJ
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You want to speak to me in THERMS?
Really?
Are you on heat?
I think that if I use some basic principles of leverage discovered millennia ago, long before christardology was invented, I could, with very little help from others, build a trilithon in pretty short order. Meanwhile, you, aided by millions upon millions of other christards, using all the power of prayer you can muster, will fail to build anything, regardless of how long and how well you pray.
Oh, and fuck you, you useless waste of space.
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01-07-2018, 02:57 PM
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#2733
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,362
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Quote:
Andrew66 wrote
So it took you 8 replies before you finally wised up and stop re-tweeting the Bant stuff.
Good for you, a bit slow - but I'm glad from your mental health standpoint that you're finally able to resist.
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Andrew,
looking at "dem dere" Hertz fucked up posts since you noted this I would say he's as off his rocker as ever.
Good grief.
HERTZ, GET SOME HELP BEFORE YOU DO SOMETHING DANGEROUS ...like drive your car like a maniac (if you have once) in some hyper manic state and kill someone.
JJ
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01-07-2018, 02:57 PM
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#2734
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,734
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Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
Hertz,
Let me speak it in therms you can understand. Fuck off, you cunt, atheist-tard.
Your stupid posts are worthless.
Now run along and play on the main forum. Get the hell of this site that you promised to Smelly the drunken mod witha whiskey bottle stuck up his ass warned you to do. (Of course he himself can't do it but what can you do?)
JJ
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And now jerrypong, you just got bitch slapped by The Judge.
First android gets a good slapping, now you.
It just gets worse.
You useless piece of shyte.
This is getting real entertaining, no?
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01-07-2018, 02:59 PM
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#2735
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,734
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Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
Andrew,
looking at "dem dere" Hertz fucked up posts since you noted this I would say he's as off his rocker as ever.
Good grief.
HERTZ, GET SOME HELP BEFORE YOU DO SOMETHING DANGEROUS ...like drive your car like a maniac (if you have once) in some hyper manic state and kill someone.
JJ
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jerrypong
Is this 'the best you got'?
Now we see android running home to his mom - stupid twat.
Weak as piss.
Gotta do better than this.
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01-07-2018, 03:03 PM
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#2736
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,362
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Quote:
The Judge wrote
I feel you have missed the point of this study and may be trying to extrapolate beyond its findings without even having read it properly.
Indeed as it acknowledges in the full text of the article the notion of "personal prayer" may be very different and it was not possible to control for this but the focus of the study was on the influence (if any) of intecessory prayer (come on, it's right there in the title!)
Whatever you thoughts / beliefs about private / personal prayer this study is nothing to do with that.
Two fundamental points here: 1.) I'm glad that is sounds like you do not believe in faith healing which so obviously is a sham but also again I fear you have missed the point of the study. The occurance of "miracles" was not the focus of the study. The focus of the study was any observed difference in expected complication rate post-procedure. To an extent, a certain occurance rate of complications is expected yet the study demonstrated no difference in complication rates between those prayed for and those not. Interestingly the only significant difference was more complications when the patients knew thay were being prayed for.
2.) You are guilty of deploying the always obscure, suitably vague and therefore all-purposeful "god works in mysterious ways" catch-all clause here. I must say it's quite unbecoming when trying to have an intelligent conversation.
I fear you are straying off piste again: The study was very clear about the outcome measures which were reported. I get that you think "studies like these are of little or no value" but you clearly didn't even read the article before making further comments and assumptions. Come on now, if you want to play with the grown ups, you gotta start acting like one.
I'll make it easier for you, here's the excerpt:
"The primary outcome was presence of any postoperative complications defined by the Society of Thoracic Surgeons Adult Cardiac Surgery Database—within 30 days of CABG. Secondary end points were the presence of any major event (defined by the New York State Cardiac Surgery Reporting System) and 30-day mortality. Trained research nurses at each site reviewed medical records of study subjects for presence of complications within
30 days of CABG. All patients discharged alive before postoperative day 30 were called to determine if they had been readmitted to any other hospital within 30 days of surgery. All patients’ medical records were independently audited. All investigators, research nurses, interviewers, and auditors were blinded to patients’ group assignment throughout the study."
Two things about the study were that it used 3 prayer groups; 2 catholic and 1 protestant and all the prayers were worded in the same way to adjust for any denominational bias.
Fair enough and I'm not about to try to stop people praying (an activity as pointeless as prayer itself) since you may as well tell people to stop wishing and hoping for things. Rather I find this study adds to a small evidence base that together and on balance basically suggests intercessory prayer does not work.
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Judge,
I think you missed my point. I agree with your comment that intercessory prayer does not work as far as medical outcomes. It seems as though, if I understand correctly, that those who KNEW they were being prayed for did a little better. So that there shows the value of some prayer as far as awareness of being prayed for regarding outcomes.
My only simple point is that prayer does not hurt the outcomes either so if it brings someone peace albeit it may not be of any import to their outcome and healing there is nothing wrong with it.
Miracles are often talked about among those who pray and get better. They link the prayer to the better outcome when of course there has been little if any proof of that.
I think we are on the same page except I think prayer can be useful from a personal standpoint.
Regards,
JJ
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01-07-2018, 03:07 PM
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#2737
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,362
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Quote:
hertz vanrental wrote
And now jerrypong, you just got bitch slapped by The Judge.
First android gets a good slapping, now you.
It just gets worse.
You useless piece of shyte.
This is getting real entertaining, no?
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Hertz,
I will be reading all of your posts because of my Christian concern for you and perhaps the thought you might quit posting in such a manner and hope that you can add something of value to the conversation.
That said, I won't be responding to anymore until there is something valuable because it bores me to tears and you have nothing to offer in the way of a better understanding of atheism.
The few posts you do address the atheism issue are a joke and full of flight of thought type thinking.
Take it easy, pal.
JJ
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01-07-2018, 05:45 PM
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#2738
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,734
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Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
Hertz,
I will be reading all of your posts because of my Christian concern for you and perhaps the thought you might quit posting in such a manner and hope that you can add something of value to the conversation.
That said, I won't be responding to anymore until there is something valuable because it bores me to tears and you have nothing to offer in the way of a better understanding of atheism.
The few posts you do address the atheism issue are a joke and full of flight of thought type thinking.
Take it easy, pal.
JJ
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Is this it tit head. Is this really it?
This is all you have? Really?
What a fuckin' useless pair of wankers you and android are.
I expected better - even from a pair of useless christards.
jesus christ, you two pair of twats are a disappointment.
Your respective churches must be disappointed by your dismal showing.
What a pair of low lifes.
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01-07-2018, 10:34 PM
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#2739
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,407
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Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
Hertz,
I will be reading all of your posts because of my Christian concern for you and perhaps the thought you might quit posting in such a manner and hope that you can add something of value to the conversation.
That said, I won't be responding to anymore until there is something valuable because it bores me to tears and you have nothing to offer in the way of a better understanding of atheism.
The few posts you do address the atheism issue are a joke and full of flight of thought type thinking.
Take it easy, pal.
JJ
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Hi JJ
Yes, I agree, - I won't respond to Hertz unless he says something of merit with regards to our theist, atheist conversations. That is of course why we are here in the first place
We obviously "set him off".
Even if I make a small typo he goes crazy...
Hertz, take it easy pal.
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01-08-2018, 02:43 AM
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#2740
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,734
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Quote:
Andrew66 wrote
Hi JJ
Yes, I agree, - I won't respond to Hertz unless he says something of merit with regards to our theist, atheist conversations. That is of course why we are here in the first place
We obviously "set him off".
Even if I make a small typo he goes crazy...
Hertz, take it easy pal.
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Quelle surprise.
See how they run, see how they run.
jerrypong walks and, of course, his stupid, little echo chamber (android) does likewise. That came as a shock I couldn't have guessed that that would happen . Oh, how original. However did the pair of you come up with that one?
Oh, and stop the weird shit.
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01-08-2018, 03:58 AM
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#2741
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: U.K. London
Posts: 1,987
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Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
Judge,
I think you missed my point. I agree with your comment that intercessory prayer does not work as far as medical outcomes. It seems as though, if I understand correctly, that those who KNEW they were being prayed for did a little better. So that there shows the value of some prayer as far as awareness of being prayed for regarding outcomes.
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You do not understand correctly I'm afraid. It's the other way around. Here's a quote from the conclusion: "intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."
Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
I think we are on the same page except I think prayer can be useful from a personal standpoint.
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That is a possibility but not one that is easily testable. The study does not address personal prayer but neither can it really control for it.
Hertz's comment about a further sub-group analysis of the "certain of prayer" group would be interesting if it were possible but since some 80% of all groups admitted a religious affiliation of some sort a post-hoc sub-group analysis would not be straightforward or helpful. Further studies using well-matched atheist participants could be an interesting way to try and answer this question though.
Invisibility and nothingness look an awful lot alike.
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01-08-2018, 04:15 AM
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#2742
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,734
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Quote:
The Judge wrote
You do not understand correctly I'm afraid. It's the other way around. Here's a quote from the conclusion: "intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."
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Judge
I tried to explain same to android. He also got things the wrong way round. He didn't appear to realise, as didn't jerrypong, that the certainty of receiving prayed did indeed appear to damage recovery. Maybe it's a christard thing. Dunno. It's quite interesting though, in itself, that they both got it the wrong way round. Maybe jerrypong and android are sock puppets - just different facets thereof.
This praying lark and its efficacy - I assume that you know that it goes back to at least the late 60s to my knowledge? Not trying to insult, good sir, but I assume nothing. I just wanted to check.
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01-08-2018, 07:42 AM
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#2743
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,362
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Quote:
The Judge wrote
You do not understand correctly I'm afraid. It's the other way around. Here's a quote from the conclusion: "intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."
That is a possibility but not one that is easily testable. The study does not address personal prayer but neither can it really control for it.
Hertz's comment about a further sub-group analysis of the "certain of prayer" group would be interesting if it were possible but since some 80% of all groups admitted a religious affiliation of some sort a post-hoc sub-group analysis would not be straightforward or helpful. Further studies using well-matched atheist participants could be an interesting way to try and answer this question though.
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Ah, yes I see your point.
My thought is that it is possible that people who believed a person was at a a higher risk for complications or poor outcomes might have inspired them to be more likely to tell that person that they are praying for them. Subtle cues can be given by staff including nurses and doctors sometimes when things are not going the best way possible that would not be able to be measured by a study nor other factors such as those I note below.
Thus, perhaps some were indeed at a higher risk of complications.
Also many patients are not fully honest with staff about drinking, smoking, drug use, other things that might effect complications that family friends are aware of that could effect outcomes.
Thus, I feel there are more variables that are involved in trying to compare several groups of people who have exactly the same potential outcome.
Interesting study and a good discussion which is a nice change of pace around here.
JJ
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01-08-2018, 08:36 AM
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#2744
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,734
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Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
Ah, yes I see your point.
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Yes, jerrypong, once again, you were wrong.
Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
My thought
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You, having a thought? I very much doubt it.
Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
is that it is possible that people who believed a person was at a a higher risk for complications or poor outcomes might have inspired them to be more likely to tell that person that they are praying for them. Subtle cues can be given by staff including nurses and doctors sometimes when things are not going the best way possible that would not be able to be measured by a study nor other factors such as those I note below. Thus, perhaps some were indeed at a higher risk of complications.
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And you believe this?
Oh, yes, you also believe that a holy goat shagged mary and she had a kid, so basically, you'll believe anything.
Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
Also many patients are not fully honest with staff about drinking, smoking, drug use, other things that might effect complications that family friends are aware of that could effect outcomes.
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No shit sherlock? Have you got any reason to suppose that this phenomena isn't equally dispersed across the three groups? If not, shut the fuck up. It makes you look more stupid that people think you are.
Quote:
JerryJohn wrote
Interesting study and a good discussion which is a nice change of pace around here.
JJ
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For "change of pace" read: The Judge hasn't yet got really pissed with you yet because he hasn't fully appreciated what a fuckin' useless, incompetent twat you really are.
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01-08-2018, 09:59 AM
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#2745
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Obsessed Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: U.K. London
Posts: 1,987
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Quote:
Andrew66 wrote
To be honest Judge, speaking strictly scientifically, the study is useless.
Here is the key problem, pointed out in the discussion.
"We did not request that subjects alter any plans for family, friends, and/or members of their religious institutions to pray for them, because to do so wouldhave been unethical and impractical. At enrollment,most subjects did expect to receive prayers from others regardless of their participation in the study. We also recognize that subjects may have prayed for themselves.Thus, our study subjects may have been exposed to a large amount of non–study prayer, and this could have made it more difficult to detect the effects of prayer provided by the intercessors. "
This renders all "conclusions" as mere speculations - I disagree with your view that anything at all meaningful can be derived by this study.
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On the contrary there are some interesting phenomena here:
1.) Most obviously is that no amount of any kind of prayer can eradicate complications post CABG: With all the prayer flying about there were still complications for a significant number of patients (which are pretty much par for the course for CABG).
"God" either heard at least some of these prayers and ignored them because "he" wanted these patients to have complications (a dick move for an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful "good" magical sky daddy) or "he" wasn't there in the first place to hear them.
2.) Despite there being a large proportion of participants that were arguably "certain of some prayer" those who knew on some level that they would be prayed for by friends and family only knew that it was the prayers of strangers that were being tested. This is a condition that is arguably most likely outside of their usual experience and so may have engendered a sort of subject-expectancy effects in ways unrelated to any expected or perceived effects of prayer that they knew was going to happen anyway.
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote
Need to repeat a study finding an ethical way to keep others, and the patient themselves from praying.[This won't happen easily in religious patients, with religious families. Enrolment of Atheists Only?
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I don't think you can ethically or practically prevent patients from praying for themselves or friends and family praying for the patient but a between group comparison with an atheist cohort would indeed be an interesting study to examine the possible subject-expectancy effect if indeed it exists.
Quote:
Andrew66 wrote
The problem here is that there are bible versus which suggests God only responds to prayers of faith.
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...What?! Not to prayers of "hope"?! How does this not undermine your previous "hope" thesis?
Invisibility and nothingness look an awful lot alike.
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