Old 01-11-2011, 06:06 PM   #226
ghoulslime
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...and Jerry falls bottom bitch to yet another vigorous humping of his masochistic ass! Sigh!

The Leprechauns do not forbid the drawing of Their images, as long as we color within the lines. ~ Ghoulslime H Christ, Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and Masturbator
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Old 01-12-2011, 07:10 AM   #227
anthonyjfuchs
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selliedjoup wrote
I'm not asking you to disprove my nebulous magic man, I'm asking you to prove that the he is "not required".
Of your "nm[m]," you admit that "Iím not saying it does exist, Iím saying it might exist."

A thing that might exist also might not exist, and a thing that might not exist cannot be required.

C.V.D.

atheist (n): one who remains unconvinced.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:44 PM   #228
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It would seem that this Jerry clown is somewhat of an intellectual masochist.

He seems to enjoy coming here just to get logically spanked, repeatedly. And he doesn't seem to learn even after being corrected, which is really sad.
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:18 PM   #229
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anthonyjfuchs wrote View Post
Then you can't call your idea a "valid alternative." Without evidence, it's just "a thing you dreamed up."
I havenít dreamed anything up, that would require some form of definition. I just consider it a possibility that might provide a valid alternative, what the Ďití is I have no idea.
On the other hand you discount it without any valid alternative.


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What kind of evidence are you looking for? Evidence of what, precisely?

The matter that makes up life is found elsewhere in the universe, and there is no matter that makes up life that is not foudn elsewhere. That is evidence that life emerged naturally from within the universe, and requires no external source.
Thatís the same as saying as weíre here, life began. If you view that as a sufficient explanation why look to science to prove anything?
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Time began after the moment of the Big Bang, which means that the gravitational singularity (which contained all of the matter and energy that makes up the universe) is, by definition, eternal. There is no evidence of where the universe "came from" because the universe did not "come from" anywhere.
Can you explain how the big bang began if there was no time to measure a beginning point?
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I just did. Care to prove me wrong?
Thatís an alternative, but youíre still in no position to negate something which is unknown.


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Valid as what? Certainly not as a way of interacting with the world.
It depends on how you define Ďinteractingí.
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We certainly are. That is what evidence is for. Conjecture supported by evidence can be assessed as having greater probability than conjectured unsupported by evidence.
]Youíre not trying to prove the same thing. You assert this is how something occurred to account for a why.

You could measure anything that has occurred and then state this is how it happened, therefore a why is not required? It makes no sense.
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Since you admit that you have no evidence to support your conjecture, I can assess its probability as negligible. Even if I didn't have an alternative theory, your theory wouldn't be any more probable, because it is still not supported by evidence.
How do you assess the probability of what is, without having all the evidence? With an estimated variable of what is unknown to known, your calculations would have a foundation in bullshit.

I could be convinced otherwise if presented with sufficient evidence. What else should I base my understanding of the world on?


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If by "disbelief" you mean "skepticism," then you are quite right. I, like you, am skeptical until shown sufficient evidence to assuage my skepticism.
No thatís what I mean. Generally Iím sceptical with most things unless a explanation of something is required, which is why santa and leprechauns and not required as they explain nothing.
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Ah, but I'm both. I'm agnostic because I don't know, but I'm an atheist because I also don't believe. Further, I'm an atheist because I acknowledge that whether or not I believe is entirely irrelevant. What is true is true whether I believe it or not, and whether I believe or not has no effect on the truth. It doesn't matter what I believe, so I don't bother to do so.
It doesnít matter to others what you believe but it matters to yourself. You can apply this to any aspect of life.

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What evidence do you have that existence must be caused?
Basic casuality. We require something beyond our current knowledge to account for existence.



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Nope. Agnosticism admits it doesn't know.

Atheism states that it doesn't believe. It doesn't negate; it just isn't convinced.

For example, are these two statements:

a) I don't believe in the Loch Ness monster.
b) the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist.

the same statement? Or is it possible to make the first statement while admitting that the second may not be true? Is it possible to say that, because of insufficient evidence, I do not believe that the Loch Ness monster exists while admitting that I may be wrong?

I don't believe in any gods because I don't see sufficient evidence for any. But there may be entities beyond our ability to comprehend, and I wouldn't say that they don't exist. Only that I don't believe that they do.
If the application of your belief is the same as if the statement is true, then they're the same. I think atheists use this as a logical loophole, rather than something they actually apply.

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What do you imagine this something to be, if you can't reconcile an uncaused cause? Surely if must be a thing that was caused, and in turn that the thing that caused it must have been caused. Turtles all the way down, as it were.

I, on the other hand, have no problem reconciling an uncaused universe. It is more parsimonious than a universe caused by an uncaused creator, after all.
That all depends on your perspective, but you have no valid means to state it's parsimonious if you can't re-create an uncaused universe from literally nothing (Space, time and matter).
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:30 PM   #230
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anthonyjfuchs wrote View Post
I'm not negating anything. I'm just filing your claim as lacking evidence, which you've admitted. Your claim may or may not be true, but I'm not going to treat it as true until you show me some evidence that it is.

Call that negation if you must.
I donít expect you to view it as true. I call it negation as that is what it is. All Iím saying is donít rule out possibilities until the full picture is obtained.
I donít think atheists expect any evidence come to light and their position is based around this.


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Are you asking if I think that statement "humans are capable of perceiving all that is" is an assumption? Or if I think that humans are actually capable of perceiving all that is?
Well, essentially both.


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Then your "explanation" is in no way useful, and it is potentially incorrect.
Usefulí as in? It doesnít define how I live my life, although I admit without the possibility of Ďsomethingí else then life would be a divine comedy without the divine.
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That's the problem. It's not an explanation if it's not defined. It's just some haphazard nonsense you're throwing together to be contrary.
Not at all. You could consider it contrary that I come here, but my disagreement with your position is truthful. The difference is I remain open to the possibility that NMM might exist to account for a why. Most here donít require a why and disbelieve anything unproven. The leprechauns and santa analogies do nothing to dissuade me from this view. Given the possibility of other universes, possibilities combined with the infinite become probable.
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And yet you are positing an undefined answer to a "why question." What is your "nebulous magic [man]" if not an attempt to account for a "why question" without enough evidence?
I remain open to the possibility of NMM without the existence of evidence, yet I donít consider it to be true.
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You have not shown that one is required.
]If one exists, science will not be able to show it so you disregard it. That doesnít mean one does (or doesnít) exist. Itís exactly the same principle as arguing for if NMM exists, and if it does it would account for a why. You can choose to view all that is, is solely physical and therefore measurable. Using scientific means to determine otherwise will probably be difficult.
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Both are valid alternatives to your undefined "nebulous magic [man]."

Therefore, your "nebulous magic [man]" is not required.
Both are valid alternatives but until proven, the possibility of NMM is not removed. I donít state NMM is required, merely a possibility.
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Atheism works on the assumption that it is possible for a person to hear a claim and not be convinced by it.
That is more being human and not unique to Atheists, what is unique is what the determining factors are which convince Atheists when they hear a claim.
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I've never experienced anything that could not be explained naturalistically.
Fascinating most people have experienced something. E.g. loved ones saying goodbye after dying, eerie co-incidences etc.
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I have no hope or expectation on the matter. I have no idea what this evidence might look like if it existed. But if you want me to believe a claim that something outside the universe created the universe, that is the type of evidence I need to see.
Fair enough, thatís your choice, although you could not see something which cannot be observed.
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Then your claim is both unsupported and irrelevant.
Irrelevant to you. Thatís applying the principle that nmm applies ďthou shaltsĒ, if he does I see no verifiable evidence that he does.
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Because the vast majority of people do. If you really don't, then good for you.
Good for me. If I was born in a different family it would probably be otherwise.
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Why do you assume that the universe's own internal causality cannot explain its origin?
The concept of a self creating anything does not compute. There is no reason to think the causality we experience applies to the self creation of the universe. All conditions observed occur within the existence of the universe, not outside of it.
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Why is something beyond our current understanding required? What's wrong with the infinite regression argument?

On what basis do you negate the perfectly valid alternative of the infinite regression argument?
As an infinite regression would never get to the point to Ďcauseí anything. Something beyond our current understanding is required as we have potential alternatives but no conclusive proof that these are correct. Surely youíd prefer more proof than what is currently known?[/font]
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Is the "nmm" subject to the infinite regression argument that doesn't convince you? Is the "nmm" subject to the uncaused cause idea that you can't reconcile?

Is it turtles all the way down, or do you give your undefined "nmm" a free pass on all the things you refuse to apply to the universe?
I donít refuse to apply them, they are valid options. But that they are currently only options, along with NMM. I answer a why with the possibility of a NMM, you think no why exists. Thatís just a presumption to suit your fundamental position of only the physical exists.

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Here's a valid alternative: the universe is infinitely cyclical. It is currently expanding, with energy converting into heat, and will eventually begin to condense again until all of the energy is used up and it returns to a gravitational singularity. At that point, where physics no longer operate in the way we understand them, all of the heat energy will be recycled into usable energy. Once all of the energy becomes usable again, the singularity will expand again in another Big Bang. The universe will expand, matter and energy will do what they will, and the cycle will continue again.
Are the physics of a singularity not "something beyond our current understanding," just as you demanded? Does this not constitute a valid alternative that is both naturalistic and infinitely regressive?
Physics serve to state how something happened, so Iím not sure what answer youíre looking for.
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Without all of the information, on what basis do you negate this scenario?
I donít. Iím unsure how you present it as true without all the information.
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:57 PM   #231
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Simoon wrote View Post
It would seem that this Jerry clown is somewhat of an intellectual masochist.

He seems to enjoy coming here just to get logically spanked, repeatedly. And he doesn't seem to learn even after being corrected, which is really sad.
By coming here and presenting a differing opinion, I don't expect anything else than your view. I do find it fascinating how you present your belief with absolute certainty, it's as if it were a religion.
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:58 PM   #232
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Jerry seems to think that if he generates enough inane prattle, somebody might mistake him for something other than a complete imbecile.

The Leprechauns do not forbid the drawing of Their images, as long as we color within the lines. ~ Ghoulslime H Christ, Prophet, Seer, Revelator, and Masturbator
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:03 PM   #233
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ghoulslime wrote View Post
Jerry seems to think that if he generates enough inane prattle, somebody might mistake him for something other than a complete imbecile.
At least it's funny to watch.

Always question all authorities because the authority you don't question is the most dangerous... except me, never question me.
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:08 PM   #234
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So, Jerry, are leprechauns a valid alternative?

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:41 PM   #235
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ghoulslime wrote View Post
Jerry seems to think that if he generates enough inane prattle, somebody might mistake him for something other than a complete imbecile.
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Davin wrote View Post
At least it's funny to watch.
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nkb wrote View Post
So, Jerry, are leprechauns a valid alternative?
You seem to think I consider myself able to convince the devout atheists that reside here. I'm under no misconceptions that that will occur.

I find it amusing how you flit between belief and logic and portray yourselves as some form of authority of such a topic. I find that funny.
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Old 01-13-2011, 02:46 PM   #236
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I find it amusing that you dodge questions when they are about to cornhole your idiotic argument.

So, do you consider leprechauns a valid alternative?

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:22 PM   #237
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selliedjoup wrote
I havenít dreamed anything up, that would require some form of definition. I just consider it a possibility that might provide a valid alternative, what the Ďití is I have no idea.
The "it" requires no definition beyond being an "it." The "it" is an undefined something that you dreamed up.

Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
On the other hand you discount it without any valid alternative.
There's nothing to discount, according to you.

How can an undefined "it" be considered a valid alternative, much less a thing deserving of being discounted?

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selliedjoup wrote
Thatís the same as saying as weíre here, life began.
Well, yes. Is it incorrect to say that, based on the fact that we're here, life began?

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selliedjoup wrote
If you view that as a sufficient explanation why look to science to prove anything?
I didn't say it was a sufficient explanation. But it is the beginning of an explanation, which one can seek to support using scientific methodology.

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selliedjoup wrote
Can you explain how the big bang began if there was no time to measure a beginning point?
The Big Bang began when all of the used-up heat energy from the last cycle of the universe was recycled back into energy usable for work. It wasn't a matter of time; it was a matter of that particular task being completed.

I don't know that that explanation is correct, but then you didn't ask if I knew. You just asked if I could explain it.

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selliedjoup wrote
Thatís an alternative, but youíre still in no position to negate something which is unknown.
If it's unknown, then it doesn't need to be negated. But I certainly am in a position to assess your undefined proposal as useless, especially since I offered a valid alternative, just as you asked.

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selliedjoup wrote
It depends on how you define Ďinteractingí.
How do you define "interacting"?

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selliedjoup wrote
Youíre not trying to prove the same thing. You assert this is how something occurred to account for a why.
A "how" is the mechanism by which something occurred.

A "why" is the motivation behind an action deliberately initiated by an intelligent agent.

A "how" does not always have a "why." A crater on the moon, for instance, has a "how," but not a "why."

Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
You could measure anything that has occurred and then state this is how it happened, therefore a why is not required?
That's not what I said, or even what I suggested. But a "how" does not always require a "why." A "how" only requires a "why" if an intelligent agent was involved in the "how."

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selliedjoup wrote
It makes no sense.
It certainly doesn't.

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selliedjoup wrote
How do you assess the probability of what is, without having all the evidence?
Very carefully.

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selliedjoup wrote
With an estimated variable of what is unknown to known, your calculations would have a foundation in bullshit.
Then you admit that the undefined "it" your propose is founded in bullshit?

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selliedjoup wrote
Generally Iím sceptical with most things unless a explanation of something is required...
I offered you an explanation for the universe that does not require any undefined external "its."

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selliedjoup wrote
...which is why santa and leprechauns and not required as they explain nothing.
How does the undefined "it" that you propose explain anything better than santa or leprechauns? In fact, how can "it" explain anything, if you claim not to know anything about "it"?

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selliedjoup wrote
It doesnít matter to others what you believe but it matters to yourself.
It only matters to yourself if you allow what you believe to trump what is true.

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selliedjoup wrote
Basic casuality. We require something beyond our current knowledge to account for existence.
Based on what evidence do you make this assertion? Why do we require something beyond our current knowledge to account for existence? You are, after all, so clearly interested in the "why."

Additionally: do the unknown physics of a gravitational singularity (which I proposed as a valid alternative to your undefined "it") constitute something "beyond our current knowledge"? Or do you claim to know the physics of a gravitational singularity?

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selliedjoup wrote
If the application of your belief is the same as if the statement is true, then they're the same.
If I don't have a belief, how can I apply it to anything at all?

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selliedjoup wrote
...you have no valid means to state it's parsimonious if you can't re-create an uncaused universe from literally nothing (Space, time and matter).
I didn't propose that the universe came from nothing.

I proposed that the universe always existed, in a cyclical recurrence.

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selliedjoup wrote
All Iím saying is donít rule out possibilities until the full picture is obtained.
All I'm saying is don't propose undefined "its" as possibilities until the full picture is obtained.

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selliedjoup wrote
I donít think atheists expect any evidence come to light and their position is based around this.
How is your opinion on other people's expectations relevant? On what evidence do you base this opinion? Or is it merely another undefined "it" that you dreamed up?

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selliedjoup wrote
Well, essentially both.
The statement is an assumption. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it's an incorrect assumption, but I don't have any evidence to support that guess, so I don't know.

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selliedjoup wrote
'Usefulí as in?
Able to be used to form or find knowledge about the world.

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selliedjoup wrote
...without the possibility of Ďsomethingí else then life would be a divine comedy without the divine.
Not necessarily. Sometimes it would be a tragedy, but mostly it would be a meandering postmodern absurdist play.

A potential consequence of a possibility is not evidence that that possibility is correct.

Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
The difference is I remain open to the possibility that NMM might exist to account for a why.
The difference is that you assume that there is a "why."

atheist (n): one who remains unconvinced.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:22 PM   #238
anthonyjfuchs
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selliedjoup wrote
I remain open to the possibility of NMM without the existence of evidence, yet I donít consider it to be true.
Why then do you not similarly remain open to the possibility of Santa and leprechauns and triomni Charonian universe, even if you don't consider them to be true? Many things exist even though they are not required to exist. Life itself is not required to exist, yet does. Cleary, being required to exist is not a requirement for existing.

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selliedjoup wrote
If one exists, science will not be able to show it so you disregard it.
If science can't show "it", how is "it" in any way relevant? How can you tell the difference between "its" existence and "its" nonexistence?

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selliedjoup wrote
You can choose to view all that is, is solely physical and therefore measurable.
Things need not be physical to be measurable. Time is measurable. Heat is measurable.

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selliedjoup wrote
Both are valid alternatives but until proven, the possibility of NMM is not removed.
Only shown to not be required, which is what you asked.

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selliedjoup wrote
I donít state NMM is required, merely a possibility.
Then why have you repeated demanded that we prove it's not required?

Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
That is more being human and not unique to Atheists, what is unique is what the determining factors are which convince Atheists when they hear a claim.
That's not unique to atheists. The determining factors that cause an atheist not to be convinced that Jesus was the son of God are the same as the determining factors that cause a Hindu, a Jew, and a Muslim not to be convinced that Jesus was the son of God. The determining factors that cause an atheist not to be convinced that Mohammed as the prophet of Allah are the same determining factors that cause a Hindu, a Jew, and a Christian not to be convinced that Mohammed as the prophet of Allah.

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selliedjoup wrote
Fascinating most people have experienced something. E.g. loved ones saying goodbye after dying, eerie co-incidences etc.
No one has ever said goodbye (to anyone) after dying.

And, as Isaac Asimov wrote: "People are entirely too disbelieving of coincidence. They are far too ready to dismiss it and to build arcane structures of extremely rickety substance in order to avoid it. I, on the other hand, see coincidence everywhere as an inevitable consequence of the laws of probability, according to which having no unusual coincidence is far more unusual than any coincidence could possibly be."

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selliedjoup wrote
Fair enough, thatís your choice...
Is it really? I don't recall choosing a particular standard of evidence for myself. That is merely the standard of evidence that will convince me. There is no choice about it.

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selliedjoup wrote
...although you could not see something which cannot be observed.
On what basis do you assert that evidence from outside the universe could not be observed?

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selliedjoup wrote
Irrelevant to you.
Irrelevant to the universe.

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selliedjoup wrote
Thatís applying the principle that nmm applies ďthou shaltsĒ, if he does I see no verifiable evidence that he does.
Your undefined "it" is suddenly a "he"?

Does calling this potential "it" a "he" constitute the beginnings of a definition? Does it follow that, your "it" being a "he," "it" has a penis, which is a fairly defining element of a "he"?

Good for me. If I was born in a different family it would probably be otherwise.

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selliedjoup wrote
The concept of a self creating anything does not compute.
I didn't propose a "self creating" universe. The term "creation" implies that something did not exist, and then later began to exist.

I proposed a universe that did not begin at all, but always existed.

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selliedjoup wrote
All conditions observed occur within the existence of the universe, not outside of it.
Then on what basis do you propose something outside the universe, if all of our observations are limited to being within the existence of the universe?

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selliedjoup wrote
As an infinite regression would never get to the point to Ďcauseí anything.
I never suggested that it would.

I suggested that the universe was not "caused" at all. It always was.

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selliedjoup wrote
Something beyond our current understanding is required as we have potential alternatives but no conclusive proof that these are correct.
I proposed a body of unknown physics within a gravitational singularity, which are "beyond our current understanding."

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selliedjoup wrote
I answer a why with the possibility of a NMM, you think no why exists.
You suggest a "why" while admitting that you don't have sufficient evidence for one. I reject your assertion that a "why" is necessary.

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selliedjoup wrote
Thatís just a presumption to suit your fundamental position of only the physical exists.
I don't presume that "only the physical exists." Energy exists, and is not physical.

That is not a presumption. It is the observable reality in which we exist.

[quote=selliedjoup]Physics serve to state how something happened, so Iím not sure what answer youíre looking for.[/color]
An answer to the question I asked:

"Are the physics of a singularity not 'something beyond our current understanding,' just as you demanded? Does this not constitute a valid alternative that is both naturalistic and infinitely regressive?"

You insist on a valid alternative, but suddenly get confused when presented with one?

Quote:
selliedjoup wrote
I donít. Iím unsure how you present it as true without all the information.
You're unsure how I present a naturalistic explanation without all of the information shortly after you presented an undefined explanation without all the information?

How did you present your proposal without all the information?

I presented my explanation without all the information by taking into account the available information. I don't propose that my explanation is necessarily true or "required," but it accounts for the available information without suggesting anything that is not supported by the available information.

How do you assess my explanation as any less likely than your undefined (yet inexplicably male) "it"?

atheist (n): one who remains unconvinced.
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:00 PM   #239
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selliedjoup wrote View Post
By coming here and presenting a differing opinion, I don't expect anything else than your view
It's not that you have a different opinion, it's that you don't understand the atheist position.

And the frustrating thing is, that you've been corrected repeatedly by many here.

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I do find it fascinating how you present your belief with absolute certainty, it's as if it were a religion.
Here's a perfect example. Where did I ever say that I claim absolute certainty. In fact, I have repeatedly said the opposite.

Here's a short list by me and others:

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Simoon wrote View Post


I do not claim to know, with absolute certainty, that a god does not exist. I disbelieve one does. I am not justified to believe a god exists based on the evidence that has been presented to me


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Simoon wrote View Post
What proof do I need to provide? Again, I'm not claiming to know, with absolute certainty, that a god does not exist.
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anthonyjfuchs wrote View Post

I am not making the claim that no gods exist. I am making the claim that I don't see a reason to believe your claim that a god exists
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anthonyjfuchs wrote View Post
We don't have evidence, which is why we don't believe.

That's what atheism is, after all. Not believing.

As long as you fail to present evidence for supernatural claims, atheism will remain correct.
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ghoulslime wrote View Post
It has already been explained to Jerry, ad nauseam, that atheists don't reject the possibility of gods, they reject only the unsubstantiated hypothesis that there are gods. He is simply a dishonest little troll who wants to argue for the sake of argument.

Do you have a reading comprehensions problem? Do you have a problem with the concepts quoted above?
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Old 01-13-2011, 10:16 PM   #240
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anthonyjfuchs wrote View Post
The "it" requires no definition beyond being an "it." The "it" is an undefined something that you dreamed up.
The ďitĒ is something I consider to be possible , which can account for something which is potentially unknowable

You choose to dismiss the why on a whim, yet it has not been scientifically proven that a why is not required, so you wonít accept it. Youíve voluntarily cornered your conclusion by accepting only answering the howís as itís meet occamís razor. This is your choice, but it does not prove anything, itís merely a mantra to meet your atheism.
John baked a cake, but then John has died. So why did John bake the cake? Your position would state there is no why, as here is the cake.

Quote:
There's nothing to discount, according to you.

How can an undefined "it" be considered a valid alternative, much less a thing deserving of being discounted?
Provide full proof of the cause of the universe and what exists outside of it. Until then, your position will only be an alternative.
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Well, yes. Is it incorrect to say that, based on the fact that we're here, life began?
Not at all, but it explains nothing.
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I didn't say it was a sufficient explanation. But it is the beginning of an explanation, which one can seek to support using scientific methodology.
One can choose to use science as the only means if one is only seeking an answer to the howís. But then applying this question to then deny a why makes no sense, as there is has no reason for doing so apart from applying your belief structure.
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The Big Bang began when all of the used-up heat energy from the last cycle of the universe was recycled back into energy usable for work. It wasn't a matter of time; it was a matter of that particular task being completed.
You, of course, realise for something to be complete would require time?
I
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don't know that that explanation is correct, but then you didn't ask if I knew. You just asked if I could explain it.


If it's unknown, then it doesn't need to be negated. But I certainly am in a position to assess your undefined proposal as useless, especially since I offered a valid alternative, just as you asked.
Given the alternative does not answer the question, I wouldnít call it valid.

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A "how" is the mechanism by which something occurred.

A "why" is the motivation behind an action deliberately initiated by an intelligent agent.

A "how" does not always have a "why." A crater on the moon, for instance, has a "how," but not a "why."
And how do you know this?


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Then you admit that the undefined "it" your propose is founded in bullshit?
]No because I make no claims about it. The concept of it is all I propose. You choose to work on the assumption all we know, entails all of what exists. If you donít claim this, then do you propose that things other than what we know of, do exist? And if so, where is your proof of that we donít know of, exists?
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I offered you an explanation for the universe that does not require any undefined external "its."
Yes but you donít know it. So it only becomes an alternative for a point where the universe may have Ďbeguní. I really do think this sheds any light on the discussion of a cause, as it eventually requires an uncaused cause.
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How does the undefined "it" that you propose explain anything better than santa or leprechauns? In fact, how can "it" explain anything, if you claim not to know anything about "it"?
]There is nothing unaccounted for which the leprechauns or santa would explain. Ok, I will define nmm as potentially an uncaused cause. NMM is only an possible alternative which I have not considered as impossible
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It only matters to yourself if you allow what you believe to trump what is true.


Based on what evidence do you make this assertion? Why do we require something beyond our current knowledge to account for existence? You are, after all, so clearly interested in the "why."

Additionally: do the unknown physics of a gravitational singularity (which I proposed as a valid alternative to your undefined "it") constitute something "beyond our current knowledge"? Or do you claim to know the physics of a gravitational singularity?
Are you proposing that once we understand the singularity that all will be understood?
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If I don't have a belief, how can I apply it to anything at all?
You choose to think as you do, which is based on the belief that all that exists, is observable by man. If itís not observable it doesnít exist.
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I didn't propose that the universe came from nothing.

I proposed that the universe always existed, in a cyclical recurrence.
So if the universe has always existed itís existed for an infinite number of cyclical rebirths. How did we get to the point of now, if infinity has been before us?
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All I'm saying is don't propose undefined "its" as possibilities until the full picture is obtained.
The full picture wonít be in our lifetime, so I would prefer to view it as the glass is half full
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How is your opinion on other people's expectations relevant? On what evidence do you base this opinion? Or is it merely another undefined "it" that you dreamed up?
Given the aversion many atheists have towards theists and others who do not share their position.
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The statement is an assumption. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it's an incorrect assumption, but I don't have any evidence to support that guess, so I don't know.


Able to be used to form or find knowledge about the world.
Considering all that can be known, defines all that does exists, is an assumption on your part and one I donít subscribe to.
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Not necessarily. Sometimes it would be a tragedy, but mostly it would be a meandering postmodern absurdist play.

A potential consequence of a possibility is not evidence that that possibility is correct.
So here we are back at the negation stage again.
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The difference is that you assume that there is a "why."
The difference is I assume there could be a why.

to be continued...
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