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Old 11-13-2007, 11:37 AM   #691
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geo wrote View Post
Atheism is a Religion...this is basic logic, and should be admitted as such on this forum.
Bald is a hair color...this is basic logic, and -- oh wait no it isn't.

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Again, agnosticism is the only "logical" choice.
Semantically that is correct but useless as others have pointed out. If one requires a fully qualified position I'll go with "technically agnostic, functionally atheist". No further discussion necessary.

"Ignorance is not bliss; it is terrifying like walking blindfolded down a dark hallway full of set bear traps." ~ Sternwallow

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Old 11-13-2007, 12:25 PM   #692
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Smile hi

I guess I should give a brief background, I was raised Catholic but am now a born again Christian. I was born again 3 years ago (for those who don't know, being born again is the experience of being baptized by the holy spirit). I spent my entire adult life "searching" through every form of spirituality I heard about, and had periods where I was agnostic and atheist. Eventually I made up my own religion based on some books I read, and on stuff that made sense to me at the time, and I clung to that for several years.

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So have at it. Why do you believe in God, and why do you think I (or anyone) should believe in God as well?
That's actually an unusual question. I've never heard that one before. WHY do I believe in God? I believe because He made Himself known to me. I know Him to exist. When I was born again, I realized that Jesus Christ was really real, and He really was God, He really came to earth to pay for the sins of every human being who would ever live so that we could spend eternity in heaven.

I think other people "should" believe in God because, if your faith is not in Jesus Christ, when you die, you will go to hell. That's not my rule, that's not my wish on anyone, that's the Word of God. I know the bible is not believed around these parts (and I used to think it was a worthless crock myself, before I was born again) but it is what it is, you can believe it or you can reject it. So yes, I do care about people, and I don't want anyone to go to hell. But the bottom line is that there isn't anything I can do about it, you're either going to accept the message or reject it and that's up to you.

I put "should" in quotes because, I do respect people's freedom to choose. You have free will and can accept or reject, you can live and die however you choose. My call as a Christian is to share the gospel. Its also my personal call because I wish someone would have told me sooner.
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:29 PM   #693
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Stop the Holy See men!
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:34 PM   #694
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forgod....how did you find this forum?

and welcome!

One of the most irrational of all the conventions of modern society is the one to the effect that religious opinions should be respected....That they should have this immunity is an outrage. There is nothing in religious ideas, as a class, to lift them above other ideas. On the contrary, they are always dubious and often quite silly.
H. L. Mencken
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:37 PM   #695
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Welcome to our forum!

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ForGodSoLovedTheWorld wrote View Post
I guess I should give a brief background, I was raised Catholic but am now a born again Christian. I was born again 3 years ago (for those who don't know, being born again is the experience of being baptized by the holy spirit). I spent my entire adult life "searching" through every form of spirituality I heard about, and had periods where I was agnostic and atheist. Eventually I made up my own religion based on some books I read, and on stuff that made sense to me at the time, and I clung to that for several years.
What books?



Quote:
That's actually an unusual question. I've never heard that one before. WHY do I believe in God? I believe because He made Himself known to me. I know Him to exist.
You believe him to exist.

Quote:
When I was born again, I realized that Jesus Christ was really real, and He really was God, He really came to earth to pay for the sins of every human being who would ever live so that we could spend eternity in heaven.
1.) How did the process of being "born again" make you realize that Christ was real?
2.) How exactly did he "pay" for our sins?
3.) Who exactly did he "pay" for our sins?


Quote:
I think other people "should" believe in God because, if your faith is not in Jesus Christ, when you die, you will go to hell. That's not my rule, that's not my wish on anyone, that's the Word of God. I know the bible is not believed around these parts (and I used to think it was a worthless crock myself, before I was born again)
You said you were Catholic before you were born again. I beg your pardon, but I don't for one second believe that you were ever an atheist. Spending a few months wondering about religion does not count, BTW.

Quote:
but it is what it is, you can believe it or you can reject it. So yes, I do care about people, and I don't want anyone to go to hell. But the bottom line is that there isn't anything I can do about it, you're either going to accept the message or reject it and that's up to you.
Rejected.

Quote:
I put "should" in quotes because, I do respect people's freedom to choose. You have free will and can accept or reject, you can live and die however you choose. My call as a Christian is to share the gospel. Its also my personal call because I wish someone would have told me sooner.

Christians are supposed to treat others how they want to be treated, right? Well we don't want to hear about your freakin' gospel.


I will grieve. Grief is not a theistic concept. ~ Sternwallow
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:43 PM   #696
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ForGod, the devout Muslim would tell you that if you don't accept Muhammad as God's phrophet, you are going to hell when you die. Is that at all persuasive to you? His "feelings" are as real to him as yours are to you, but do you live in fear of the Muslim's threat about your alleged eternity if you decline to take his word for it?

Why do you think I or anyone should care anything about your preaching and personal testimony? Are you so self-centered that you think everyone who happens upon you should immediately hear the alleged word of God emanating from your mouth just because you opened it?*

*Actually, I am sorry for sounding so crabby in response to your post, but constantly being subjected to such reasoning as you put forth can have that affect on a person. Guess it's time to back away from the keyboard.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:43 PM   #697
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Again, I'm really sorry for starting this thread, it's done nothing but stir up the muck at the bottom of the interwebs. Why is it only evangelical born-agains that respond?

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That's actually an unusual question. I've never heard that one before. WHY do I believe in God? I believe because He made Himself known to me. I know Him to exist. When I was born again, I realized that Jesus Christ was really real, and He really was God, He really came to earth to pay for the sins of every human being who would ever live so that we could spend eternity in heaven.
So you believe in God because of personal revelation. Sorry, that won't do anything for me. Besides the heavy-handed philosophical objections I could raise (beetle-in-a-box, qualia, other such bullshit I won't go into), how could your personal revelation affect me? How do you know your revelation came from God, and not from eating a bad matzo-ball? Could it be you're wishing for God to be real, so he becomes real for you?

Quote:
I think other people "should" believe in God because, if your faith is not in Jesus Christ, when you die, you will go to hell. That's not my rule, that's not my wish on anyone, that's the Word of God. I know the bible is not believed around these parts (and I used to think it was a worthless crock myself, before I was born again) but it is what it is, you can believe it or you can reject it. So yes, I do care about people, and I don't want anyone to go to hell. But the bottom line is that there isn't anything I can do about it, you're either going to accept the message or reject it and that's up to you.
Sigh. The "believe what we believe or you'll suffer eternally" method. Yawn. The concept of hell, an eternal punishment for finite transgressions, is possibly the most unjust and inhumane concept conceived by humanity (besides reality television). So if your god does exist, and sends people to hell for not groveling to it, I wouldn't worship it, as a being that cruel doesn't deserve anything but my spite.

Quote:
I put "should" in quotes because, I do respect people's freedom to choose. You have free will and can accept or reject, you can live and die however you choose. My call as a Christian is to share the gospel. Its also my personal call because I wish someone would have told me sooner.
Is there anything about your life, besides the Jesus-juice, that is remarkably different that you couldn't do as a non-theist? Honesty, compassion, love for your fellow man, etc., none of these necessitate being a cross-jockey to achieve.

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 11-13-2007, 12:58 PM   #698
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Maybe you should read Rhino's request again.
He specifically asked for rational arguments, and disqualified quoting the Bible.

So, do you have anything else besides the warm, fuzzy feelings you get from thinking about Jesus?

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
George Bernard Shaw
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Old 11-13-2007, 01:09 PM   #699
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ForGodSoLovedTheWorld wrote View Post
(for those who don't know, being born again is the experience of being baptized by the holy spirit). .
You mean like this?



You can always turn tricks for a few extra bucks. If looks are an issue, there's the glory hole option, but don't expect more than ... tips.
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Old 11-13-2007, 01:33 PM   #700
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ForGodSoLovedTheWorld wrote View Post
I guess I should give a brief background, I was raised Catholic but am now a born again Christian. I was born again 3 years ago (for those who don't know, being born again is the experience of being baptized by the holy spirit). I spent my entire adult life "searching" through every form of spirituality I heard about, and had periods where I was agnostic and atheist. Eventually I made up my own religion based on some books I read, and on stuff that made sense to me at the time, and I clung to that for several years.



That's actually an unusual question. I've never heard that one before. WHY do I believe in God? I believe because He made Himself known to me. I know Him to exist. When I was born again, I realized that Jesus Christ was really real, and He really was God, He really came to earth to pay for the sins of every human being who would ever live so that we could spend eternity in heaven.

I think other people "should" believe in God because, if your faith is not in Jesus Christ, when you die, you will go to hell. That's not my rule, that's not my wish on anyone, that's the Word of God. I know the bible is not believed around these parts (and I used to think it was a worthless crock myself, before I was born again) but it is what it is, you can believe it or you can reject it. So yes, I do care about people, and I don't want anyone to go to hell. But the bottom line is that there isn't anything I can do about it, you're either going to accept the message or reject it and that's up to you.

I put "should" in quotes because, I do respect people's freedom to choose. You have free will and can accept or reject, you can live and die however you choose. My call as a Christian is to share the gospel. Its also my personal call because I wish someone would have told me sooner.
Born again? Praise be penis-Christ! Did he appear at night engulfing your very being saying: let me into your body I'm the Libidinal Lord that that will show you the delights of the Kingdom of heaven.? Did he have a glowing bold head and a single seeing all eye that was pulsating with anticipation at the sight of your Fibonacci integrated gluetous maximus?
Did he look like this, hiding his divinity inside a naked ephebe's body?


Wow, it is awesome you have accepted Him as your libido saviour. I am also born again. It was amazing for me and thanks to Him, he has blessed me with a superb collection of LCTs. Praise be Penis Christ. Here is another of his incarnations this time revealing his true nature in heaven surrounded by stars


Remember to worship him correctly you must kneel hold your hands like shown here as to hold the body of the god

then open your mouth to receive his holy communion ! Praise be to god...

Christians and other folks infected with delusional beliefs think and reason like schizophrenics or temporal lobe epileptics. Their morality is dictated by an invisible friend called Jesus.
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Old 11-13-2007, 01:56 PM   #701
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forgod....how did you find this forum? and welcome!
Thanks! I honestly forgot how I found this forum. I read a lot of blogs, I probably found the website through a comment or a blog I read at some point. I forgot I registered here, I got that private message (that was apparently spam) in email recently, and I logged back in today.

Professor Chaos, RE: the books I read, I don't really remember everything I read, but I used to read a lot of new age and self-help books. One of them was "Messages from Michael", and the follow-up to that book from the same author(s), as well as some other new age books I don't specifically recall.

Quote:
You believe him to exist.
I understand the importance for you to insist that this is my belief, but the reality for ME as a follower of Jesus Christ, is that I KNOW Him to exist. Belief implies doubt. And I have no doubt.

Quote:
1.) How did the process of being "born again" make you realize that Christ was real?
2.) How exactly did he "pay" for our sins?
3.) Who exactly did he "pay" for our sins?
1.) The answer is basically my testimony and I will try hard to keep it short. Even though I was raised Catholic, as I got older I stopped believing in Jesus Christ, and for a while I didn't believe (or rather, didn't WANT to believe) that there was a God. I didn't believe that Jesus was God, and for a long time I decided that he never really existed, that it was just a nice little story someone made up. A lot of things happened that led up to the moment that I was born again, but to make a long story short, I met someone who said they used to be an atheist, and they were now a Christian after watching "passion of the Christ". That intrigued me, and several months later I decided to finally watch it. I did and thats when I realized that Jesus was really real. When I realized he was real, and that he died for our sins, I realized that I was a sinner in need of a savior, and Jesus was it. I just felt immediately sorry for all of the years that I spent not believing in Jesus. I immediately wanted to start getting back to going to church and I wanted to read the bible, I wanted to know everything about God. I'm not saying that this movie will make anyone born again. Being born again has nothing to do with this or any other movie or book, its just an inexplicable moment that is different for everyone, when you're baptized by the holy spirit and its literally a complete and total and 100% change... a complete rebirth. Its awesome.

2.) Jesus paid for our sins when He died on the cross. His death was an atoning death, because He was sinless, perfect and literally God incarnate, His death on the cross atoned for the sin of every human being who ever lived and who ever would. Why? Because He is the perfect and precious Son of the God who created the immense universe and everything that exists as we know it (and so much more we don't know or understand).

3.) He paid God, the Father, for the sins of us all.

Quote:
You said you were Catholic before you were born again. I beg your pardon, but I don't for one second believe that you were ever an atheist. Spending a few months wondering about religion does not count, BTW.
I was born and raised Catholic, and departed from the religion when I was about 18. I was an atheist for a while, an agonistic before and after, because I was searching and confused. I was very, very far from God. I used to go out of my way to mock Christians and Christianity. I actually used to have a website where I made fun of Christianity. I would scan in Chick tracts and cut out all the words and replace them with my own, mocking everything Christianity stood for. I actually had quite a few atheist friends, who were as amused as I was by my website. I say "had" because once I became born again it didn't take long for those friendships to completely erode. Because they're my friends and I cared about them, I witnessed to them and needless to say that went over like a lead balloon. Not to mention how my political views changed from night to day. Sorry you don't believe me but its a true story. Much like your choice to reject the one and only Sovereign Lord, you don't need to believe it for it to be true.

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Rejected.
Okay.

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Christians are supposed to treat others how they want to be treated, right? Well we don't want to hear about your freakin' gospel.
That's okay, I don't live to please man, I live to please the Lord. And by the way, nowhere in the bible does it say to treat people how they want to be treated. Here's what the bible says: "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching." (2 Timothy 4:2)

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Old 11-13-2007, 02:03 PM   #702
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I once had a woman who was a Jehovah's Witness come to my door peddling her beliefs. When I had the audacity to respond to her that I respected her right to believe as she wished and that I hoped she could respect my right to not believe as she did, I remember her retorting: "I don't believe; I know."

Why do people do that? Do they honestly think that the more emphatic they are about what they believe they know, the more true it actually is?

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:06 PM   #703
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ForGodSoLovedTheWorld wrote View Post

Professor Chaos, RE: the books I read, I don't really remember everything I read, but I used to read a lot of new age and self-help books. One of them was "Messages from Michael", and the follow-up to that book from the same author(s), as well as some other new age books I don't specifically recall.
Wait...these books CHANGED YOUR LIFE FOREVER...and you don't even remember their names? WTF?


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I understand the importance for you to insist that this is my belief, but the reality for ME as a follower of Jesus Christ, is that I KNOW Him to exist. Belief implies doubt. And I have no doubt.
The most learned and respected Christians in the world will tell you just how wrong this is. The most learned and respected psychiatrists in the world will tell you something different.


Quote:
1.) The answer is basically my testimony and I will try hard to keep it short. Even though I was raised Catholic, as I got older I stopped believing in Jesus Christ, and for a while I didn't believe (or rather, didn't WANT to believe) that there was a God.
Big difference.

Quote:
I didn't believe that Jesus was God, and for a long time I decided that he never really existed, that it was just a nice little story someone made up. A lot of things happened that led up to the moment that I was born again, but to make a long story short, I met someone who said they used to be an atheist, and they were now a Christian after watching "passion of the Christ".
I hope that person is now in Bellvue.

Quote:
That intrigued me, and several months later I decided to finally watch it. I did and thats when I realized that Jesus was really real.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.


Quote:
2.) Jesus paid for our sins when He died on the cross. His death was an atoning death, because He was sinless, perfect and literally God incarnate, His death on the cross atoned for the sin of every human being who ever lived and who ever would. Why? Because He is the perfect and precious Son of the God who created the immense universe and everything that exists as we know it (and so much more we don't know or understand).
That doesn't make the tiniest bit of sense. In fact, no Christian has ever been able to explain this to me, and I don't expect someone who claims to have converted because of a Mel Gibson movie to be able to do it. Why did God need to impregnate a virgin with himself and then kill himself in order to forgive someone born 2,000 years later for something they haven't yet done, but will do because some naked chick ate an apple she wasn't supposed to after a snake told her to?

Quote:
3.) He paid God, the Father, for the sins of us all.
So he paid himself?


Quote:
I was born and raised Catholic, and departed from the religion when I was about 18. I was an atheist for a while, an agonistic before and after, because I was searching and confused. I was very, very far from God. I used to go out of my way to mock Christians and Christianity. I actually used to have a website where I made fun of Christianity. I would scan in Chick tracts and cut out all the words and replace them with my own, mocking everything Christianity stood for. I actually had quite a few atheist friends, who were as amused as I was by my website. I say "had" because once I became born again it didn't take long for those friendships to completely erode. Because they're my friends and I cared about them, I witnessed to them and needless to say that went over like a lead balloon. Not to mention how my political views changed from night to day. Sorry you don't believe me but its a true story. Much like your choice to reject the one and only Sovereign Lord, you don't need to believe it for it to be true.
What was the website?


Quote:
That's okay, I don't live to please man, I live to please the Lord. And by the way, nowhere in the bible does it say to treat people how they want to be treated. Here's what the bible says: "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching." (2 Timothy 4:2)

Holy shit, a Fundy that's never even heard of the Golden God-fucking Rule!

I will grieve. Grief is not a theistic concept. ~ Sternwallow
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:16 PM   #704
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Wait, this guy converted to Christianity after watching the Passion? Just think, if he had watched Battlefield Earth first he'd be awaiting the coming of Xenu now.

Wait just a minute-You expect me to believe-That all this misbehaving-Grew from one enchanted tree? And helpless to fight it-We should all be satisfied-With this magical explanation-For why the living die-And why it's hard to be a decent human being - David Bazan
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Old 11-13-2007, 02:17 PM   #705
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ForGodSoLovedtheWorld wrote
That's okay, I don't live to please man, I live to please the Lord. And by the way, nowhere in the bible does it say to treat people how they want to be treated. Here's what the bible says: "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching." (2 Timothy 4:2)
I thought Jesus exhorted his followers to treat others as they themselves would like to be treated. Without Jesus by your side, walking on the surface of a 12-inch pail of water and doling out loaves of bread and salted fish, you have absolutely no right to preach to anyone who doesn't want to hear it. You're just another human being who believes he knows something, like the sincerely devout Muslim, the devout Jew, Hindu, Budhist, Scientologist or animist. Your personal experiences don't give you any authority to define reality for others.

"So many gods, so many creeds! So many paths that wind and wind, when just the art of being kind is all this sad world needs."
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