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Old 04-27-2007, 05:42 PM   #616
Sternwallow
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New evidence can force me to accept the truth of something different than I did before.
What is this "force" of which you write? Could this force be.... I don't know.. ummm... maybe...... a choice?
Of course not. The force is reality. Only insanity can fight against it.
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Just you try to believe something possible, but unvalidated, like "Jesus was married, like all normal rabbis at the time, to Mary Magdelene". Go ahead, try. Betcha can't do it no matter how hard you try.
You dummy.
The fact we're forced to make a choice isn't evidence there is no choice. The fact you've made a choice and are now stuck with it, isn't evidence you didn't make a choice.
By definition, if it is forced, it is not and cannot be a choice.

Meanwhile, how are you coming on willing yourself to believe that "Jesus was married, like all normal rabbis at the time, to Mary Magdelene"?
You incredible dummy.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 04-27-2007, 05:49 PM   #617
Kamikaze189
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Choice 1: Evidence.

Choice 2: Fuck evidence, I'll believe whatever I want!

Only a dolt would pick choice 2 (faith) over choice 1. While it's a choice, it's barely so. It is almost a paradox.

Asking for evidence why you pick choice 2, Xans, would be pointless since evidence clearly means nothing to you, if you've made such a decision.

But if you're open minded, go use option 2 to believe you're totally invincible (as in unharmable) and walk off a tall building. This will quickly prove to you why choice 2 is a load of shit, to the point that no person should EVER choose it under any circumstance given that choice 1 is always available, even if the best choice 1 has is "I don't know."

“Whoever attacks the popular falsehoods of his time will find that a lie defends itself by telling other lies.” - Robert Ingersoll
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Old 04-27-2007, 05:57 PM   #618
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[
The Bible makes it clear God determines the future but not exhaustively as you claim. The Bible makes it clear he's been surprised by the evil choices of his creations and that he has waited to see what his creations would do in certain situations. God has delegated a will to his creations and he hates evil. It's logical God wouldn't play out in his mind, exhaustively, every possible evil scenario his creations are capable of. The Bible doesn't describe God as an infinite scenario calculator.
"he hates evil" You might try reading that book again a little. God cannot hate Himself yet He admits His guilt in creating evil.

A set of events causes a subsequent event. There is no choice so no alternative scenarios are necessary to know the future. God is hardly worth a random spit if He doesn't know the future for which He is ultimately and totally responsible.

Because many of the decisions His creations would make, for good or evil, would change the population and because it says that God has known everyone of us since before the mountains were set, He must have known the choices that affect who is born and who dies and when throughout time. God had to know at the beginning of time that your father and mother would have sex at a particular time and date even before the trilobites swam in ancient tropical seas. Otherwise He would not know you at that early time.

Your Bible bites itself in the ass repeatedly and you just pick the nice parts.

You dummy.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 04-27-2007, 06:06 PM   #619
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Eva wrote
you can prove that it exists, because we are in it....but not that it was created....
The laws of thermodynamics prove the universe was created. And the big bang theory backs that up more then[sic] it refutes it.
NO, at best the laws imply that the universe had a beginning and other evidence points to the BB. Nothing in either of those presumed facts requires a creator.
We accept a beginning for the universe. Trot out your proof that, before causation, it was caused by any thing. When you think that you have found a necessary cause, please give evidence why it must have been more powerful, sentient and intelligent than a dust mote.

Meanwhile, how are you coming with willing yourself to believe in Jesus' marriage?

You dummy.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 04-27-2007, 06:10 PM   #620
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Just Us Chickens wrote
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Thanks for making my point for me. You "choose" to disbelieve.
There are no choices everything is the outcome of all that came before it. You couldnít be an Atheist any more than I could be a Christian or the other way around
A choice is the outcome of all that came before it. Accept this fact, move on and have fun. The future isn't settled until it comes to pass.
The outcome of any attempted choice is determined by all that went before it. It is therefore deterministic and not a free choice and it can be completely predicted (except for Heisenberg and Plank scale events which have nothing to do with free choice [and both are controlled by God anyway]).

You dummy.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 04-27-2007, 06:14 PM   #621
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inkadu wrote
Interesting. I don't think I would have the "choice" to become an atheist if I lived in a different culture. I think it's only been the scientific revolution and secular government that have made free-range thought something that is a choice.

Maybe Xans grew up in a cultural millieu where it wasn't ok to think for yourself... The choices available to us are bound by our personal and cultural histories.
It would be a bit of a paradox if the tightest cultures were most convinced that their people had free chioce and the more liberal culture enabled the discovery that we have no free will. Interesting.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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Old 04-27-2007, 06:16 PM   #622
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Eva wrote
the law of thermodynamics has NOTHING to do with it.....this ridiculous claim is used only by religious people, not by the relevant scientists....
Doesn't the existence of god violate the law of thermodynamics anyway?
As well as the law of Buddhism and the law of not being delusional.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
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Old 04-27-2007, 06:57 PM   #623
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Sternwallow wrote
It would be a bit of a paradox if the tightest cultures were most convinced that their people had free chioce and the more liberal culture enabled the discovery that we have no free will. Interesting.
That's exactly the paradox, Sternwallow. Ignoring historical / genetical influences quickly puts everything into a free will good / evil frame work. Once you can understand things in a historical context, you realize that black/white "good/evil" thinking drops away, but so does free will.

Interesting, Sterny! I always thought of free will as kind of a downer, but it's kind of liberating in a way. Like realizing that you're floating downstream instead of wondering why you always seem to be paddling in the wrong direction.

If religion were based on facts, it would be called science, and no one would believe it. -- Stephen Colbert
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Old 04-27-2007, 07:05 PM   #624
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Smellyoldgit wrote
Splendid artwork - it inspired this excellent album cover in 1975 a few years ago.
http://tubulamarok.free.fr/genesis/trick-trick.jpg
Thanks for the suggestion, cranking it now!

"Ignorance is not bliss; it is terrifying like walking blindfolded down a dark hallway full of set bear traps." ~ Sternwallow

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Old 04-28-2007, 01:15 AM   #625
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Clam - I recall you beinmg a Genesis fan - but this is taking things a bit too far !

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...term=cranking+

Defenition no. 4 :thumbsup:

Stop the Holy See men!
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Old 04-28-2007, 05:44 AM   #626
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Smellyoldgit wrote
Clam - I recall you beinmg a Genesis fan - but this is taking things a bit too far !

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...term=cranking+

Defenition no. 4 :thumbsup:
:lol: What, you've never experienced musical orgasm? I should have a few of those this weekend.

"Ignorance is not bliss; it is terrifying like walking blindfolded down a dark hallway full of set bear traps." ~ Sternwallow

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Old 04-28-2007, 09:49 AM   #627
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I'm more of a


and a



man myself. They started to get a bit too normal after that, then Mr Nonce-Sense took over the vocals...
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Old 04-29-2007, 01:26 PM   #628
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Sadly, I go back to this:-


and this

Stop the Holy See men!
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Old 05-01-2007, 01:56 PM   #629
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Thanks for making my point for me. You "choose" to disbelieve.
There are no choices everything is the outcome of all that came before it. You couldnít be an Atheist any more than I could be a Christian or the other way around
A choice is the outcome of all that came before it. Accept this fact, move on and have fun. The future isn't settled until it comes to pass.
The future is settled it simply can not be known
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Old 05-01-2007, 06:11 PM   #630
Sternwallow
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Just Us Chickens wrote
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Xans wrote
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Just Us Chickens wrote
There are no choices everything is the outcome of all that came before it. You couldnít be an Atheist any more than I could be a Christian or the other way around
A choice is the outcome of all that came before it. Accept this fact, move on and have fun. The future isn't settled until it comes to pass.
The future is settled it simply can not be known
Yet, by being settled, there is no room for alternative paths. They are all resolved.

When you take the left fork, whatever reasons cause you to do it cannot have been different so you have to turn left even though you feel completely free.

"Those who most loudly proclaim their honesty are least likely to possess it."
"Atheism: rejecting all absurdity." S.H.
"Reality, the God alternative"
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