Altruism as good as sex and chocolate? - Page 2

Philboid Studge · 05-31-2007, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Mog wrote

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056.html?hpid=topnews

This is the kind of thing I was trying to get at to Lily.

Quote:

The results were showing that when the volunteers placed the interests of others before their own, the generosity activated a primitive part of the brain that usually lights up in response to food or sex. Altruism, the experiment suggested, was not a superior moral faculty that suppresses basic selfish urges but rather was basic to the brain, hard-wired and pleasurable.

Their 2006 finding that unselfishness can feel good lends scientific support to the admonitions of spiritual leaders such as Saint Francis of Assisi, who said, "For it is in giving that we receive." But it is also a dramatic example of the way neuroscience has begun to elbow its way into discussions about morality and has opened up a new window on what it means to be good.

You can see why this is the kind of research that could scare theologians. We have traits that we attribute to free will more attributable to brain chemistry.

Mog you should check out Frans De Waal (Primates and Philosophers, e.g.). He's been doing chimp research to trace the evolutionary trail of altruism, empathy, and thus morality.

Gawd of the Gaps -- and the gap keep getting smaller and smaller. Eventually they won't be able to pretend It explains anything at all.

05-31-2007, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Gnosital wrote

Fucking moron.

I always suspected that your constant, over-the-top anger was the lashing out of a deeply unhappy woman. Having read recently that you are suicidal, as well, I freely forgive you for all your attempts to insult me.

I will not, however, respond to you again. Even though you are a deeply troubled person, you are still best avoided by those of us who have happy lives, fulfilling careers and who don't despise the people around us.

I hope that you can resolve the issues that are taking such a toll on you.

Gnosital · 05-31-2007, 05:09 AM

#2 (as always)
#3 (typical)
and #6

I think we need to add a #13 for that last admission about not knowing anything about the weather.

(BTW, nice dangling preposition there, junior!)

05-31-2007, 05:11 AM

Of course, you had to go and prove me wrong. You embrace your anger and actually enjoy it. So go ahead and wallow in it. You have the life you have chosen.

Gnosital · 05-31-2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Lily wrote

Of course, you had to go and prove me wrong.

You mean like everyone else does in every thread in which you post your rancid tripe?

Quote:

Lily wrote

You embrace your anger and actually enjoy it. So go ahead and wallow in it. You have the life you have chosen.

:lol::lol::lol:

You funny chatbot!!!

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist a dig about the suicideal ideation comment, which is one of the 2 reasons I included it in that post. Give up on the puerile attempts at mindfucking, dumbass, you haven't got any of the equipment for it.

~~Lilytard baiting~~ cow tipping used to be more fun, but you are so boringly predictable that it's just not a challenge anymore.

I do, however, retract my insult to you. You aren't a fucking xian moron. You are a sad little assclown AND a fucking xian moron.

Kate · 05-31-2007, 05:45 AM

05-31-2007, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Gnosital wrote

I do, however, retract my insult to you. You aren't a fucking xian moron. You are a sad little assclown AND a fucking xian moron.

That's it! Let it out; let it all out. Lance that boil. Let the pus pour forth! It hurts at first but then? Relief! Ah, sweet relief.

Soon you will know the joy of being human, again. It is so hard to be a veritable whirlwind of rage-- all sound and fury signifying nothing.

Kate · 05-31-2007, 06:05 AM

05-31-2007, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Lily wrote

Quote:

Mog wrote

Quote:

Lily wrote

Theologians have heard it all before, as have we who merely sit in pews. And no, it doesn't scare us in the least. Something still has to decide among all those pleasures-- or do you want to argue that it is six of one, half dozen of the other whether one has sex, eats a Hershey bar or helps an old lady across the street?

How do you phrase that as a meaningful choice? A prostitute offers me a free blow-job, while an ice-cream vendor offers me a free cone. Meanwhile theres this old lady that needs my help crossing the street all at the same time? Its kind of awkward, don't you think?

No, I don't think they really have heard it all before, at least not with the strong evidence we are accumulating. Given that there is evidence that a psychotic brain is physically different from a healthy brain, would you attempt to medically cure it? We may have the chance to wipe out most of the world's evil with modern medicine.

Yes, we have heard it all before. This is exactly the sort of thing I was trying to convey to you. You see everything through the template of the mostly fictional, evil fundy. You really don't get it that there are seriously well educated Christians working in every branch of human knowledge. Some of them are even working in these particular areas, you are so interested in. They don't display any marked cognitive dissonance, either.

And I don't even know what to say to your last sentence. It is, at once, incredibly innocent and incredibly arrogant. You will not wipe out most of the world's evil with modern medicine, any more than you will with psychiatry, or any other means by which people with power "cure" (for their own good, of course) people who don't fit in. That is evil.

Quote:

Lily wrote

...there are seriously well educated Christians working in every branch of human knowledge.

No there aren't. There are well educated people doing that, and many would check 'Christian' on the questionaire... but it's clear that you and the other fundies don't consider these people to be 'Christians'. You call them "Bufet style" or "Pick and choose' Christians. The truth is, the higher up you go in the sciences, the less faith you find. This is documented fact. Most smart people see right through that bullshit.

Quote:

Lily wrote

...or any other means by which people with power "cure" (for their own good, of course) people who don't fit in. That is evil.

So, when Jeetards try to convert people that 'Don't fit in', they're evil? Ok. There's a LOT of evil going on in Africa right now!

Kate · 05-31-2007, 06:45 AM

Victus · 05-31-2007, 07:11 AM

Psychopathy has a high genetic loading (i.e. they are born that way). My own research suggests that they lack the basic ability of understanding the emotions of others, leading to increased aggression and antisocial behaviour. God creates every human being, even psychopaths. Logically, if psychopaths are evil, and God creates psychopaths, then God creates evil.

SteveG · 05-31-2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Mog wrote

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056.html?hpid=topnews

This is the kind of thing I was trying to get at to Lily.

Quote:

The results were showing that when the volunteers placed the interests of others before their own, the generosity activated a primitive part of the brain that usually lights up in response to food or sex. Altruism, the experiment suggested, was not a superior moral faculty that suppresses basic selfish urges but rather was basic to the brain, hard-wired and pleasurable.

Their 2006 finding that unselfishness can feel good lends scientific support to the admonitions of spiritual leaders such as Saint Francis of Assisi, who said, "For it is in giving that we receive." But it is also a dramatic example of the way neuroscience has begun to elbow its way into discussions about morality and has opened up a new window on what it means to be good.

You can see why this is the kind of research that could scare theologians. We have traits that we attribute to free will more attributable to brain chemistry.

Mog et. al., Lily is dead on.

This is far from anything that is 'scary' in the least. As she's already pointed out, this at most might bother the fundy caricature that too many of you sadly hold as real. For most believers (including theologians) this is akin to saying that water is wet. A favorite blogger of mine said it perfectly...

It turns out that when you do the right thing, it is natural to feel good about it. There's something very odd about Science News trumpeting as a discovery something known by kindergartners and then saying "Such research 'has opened up a new window on what it means to be good,' although many philosophers over recorded history have suggested similar things."

You really do make yourself look like someone who actually knows very little about faith when you make the claim that this will be frightening to believers.

The vast majority of Christians are either Catholic or Orthodox (though in the U.S. that's often easy to forget), and both of those groups hold to the belief that grace builds upon nature. In other words, this is exactly what a person should expect to find…that the brain is wired in a way that sheds light on what we already know by showing us how the mechanics of things work.

Interesting to say the least, but far from anything new (in a theological sense), and very far from anything frightening.

05-31-2007, 07:27 AM

Quote:

SteveG wrote

Quote:

Mog wrote

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056.html?hpid=topnews

This is the kind of thing I was trying to get at to Lily.

Quote:

The results were showing that when the volunteers placed the interests of others before their own, the generosity activated a primitive part of the brain that usually lights up in response to food or sex. Altruism, the experiment suggested, was not a superior moral faculty that suppresses basic selfish urges but rather was basic to the brain, hard-wired and pleasurable.

Their 2006 finding that unselfishness can feel good lends scientific support to the admonitions of spiritual leaders such as Saint Francis of Assisi, who said, "For it is in giving that we receive." But it is also a dramatic example of the way neuroscience has begun to elbow its way into discussions about morality and has opened up a new window on what it means to be good.

You can see why this is the kind of research that could scare theologians. We have traits that we attribute to free will more attributable to brain chemistry.

Mog et. al., Lily is dead on.

This is far from anything that is 'scary' in the least. As she's already pointed out, this at most might bother the fundy caricature that too many of you sadly hold as real. For most believers (including theologians) this is akin to saying that water is wet. A favorite blogger of mine said it perfectly...

It turns out that when you do the right thing, it is natural to feel good about it. There's something very odd about Science News trumpeting as a discovery something known by kindergartners and then saying "Such research 'has opened up a new window on what it means to be good,' although many philosophers over recorded history have suggested similar things."

You really do make yourself look like someone who actually knows very little about faith when you make the claim that this will be frightening to believers.

The vast majority of Christians are either Catholic or Orthodox (though in the U.S. that's often easy to forget), and both of those groups hold to the belief that grace builds upon nature. In other words, this is exactly what a person should expect to find…that the brain is wired in a way that sheds light on what we already know by showing us how the mechanics of things work.

Interesting to say the least, but far from anything new (in a theological sense), and very far from anything frightening.

Sorry, but that's complete bullshit. "...grace builds upon nature." LOL. your 'grace' is built on miracles, which are non-natural.

Professor Chaos · 05-31-2007, 07:33 AM

Quote:

SteveG wrote

The vast majority of Christians are either Catholic or Orthodox (though in the U.S. that's often easy to forget), and both of those groups hold to the belief that grace builds upon nature.

Actually, the vast majority of Christians are twice-a-year church-goers (if that) who know very little about their faith and call themselves "Christian" only because their parents were.

Philboid Studge · 05-31-2007, 07:35 AM

Quote:

SteveG wrote

The vast majority of Christians are either Catholic or Orthodox (though in the U.S. that's often easy to forget), and both of those groups hold to the belief that grace builds upon nature.

SteveG, nice to see ya. You can make doctrinal claims about Catholicism but I don't think one can assume with accuracy what 'the vast majority' of these people actually believe. In my neighborhood, the Latino-based Catholicism is indistinguishable from voodoo (there are votive candles in the local deli devoted to 'lotteria'). This is true of Catholics thoughout the Carribean, South America, and Africa. What they believe and what you believe are in different universes. You might be able to make broad claims about how animistic beliefs endow nature with the divine, but that is far cry from your esoteric ruminations on grace.

Innit?