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Old 01-14-2014, 11:32 PM   #31
OnTheRazorsEdge
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I won't go through what Michael has already done so very well. If you are unable to grasp from that the similarities of both situations then that is your issue not mine. If you decided that you believed in a God, present the evidence that made you do that, I mean you didn't just decide to right? Something very Jerry about the way you are asking us questions and dismissing the answers you don't like to again try to set up another question you want a particular answer to. All atheism is is a disbelief in a god or gods. Nothing more. If you wish to change that round here you are going to need more than some "pothead philosophy" and ignorance to science. Just warning you.
My posts here seem to have put you on the defensive for some reason and for that I am truly sorry. Yes, I was intentionally vague in my original post but I did that for two reasons; one, I was hoping to promote a good discussion and two, as I mentioned in another post, I was half-expecting to get flamed and ridiculed and so I kept my initial post short and sweet.

Yes, I have disagreed with some of the views posted here, but I'm not trying to "set up" any particular question. I stumbled onto this forum the other day when I was researching something and after spending a few days lurking and reading some of the posts, I decided to register and to start this thread. So I want you to understand that I didn't wake up one morning and think to myself, "Hey, I think I'm going to stir up some sh*t with a bunch of atheists today!" And, I'm certainly not naive enough to think that any of my views are going to change yours or anyone else's minds here, nor is it my agenda to change anyone's mind. I just saw this as a good opportunity to generate some discussion and to hopefully come away from the experience with something positive.

I read your post in a different section of the forum where you were asking others to share odd things they used to do when they believed. And in one of Michael's posts in this thread, he mentions the fact that he's only been an atheist for a few years. So clearly the two of you, and maybe others here as well, had some sort of beliefs at one time and now you don't. I find stories like that fascinating and maybe one day you will share them here (or maybe you already have and I just haven't come across them yet).

As for me, I'm pretty much the opposite. I held atheistic beliefs for most of my life until just about a year ago or so. I grew up with parents who, although I think they held certain beliefs, never really talked to me about religion or if they did, it never made an impression on me. The few times I stepped inside a church growing up were for a couple of funerals and a wedding.

So when I went to school and I learned about Darwin and evolution and the Big Bang and that things were a happy accident, I just accepted that. Frankly, I was too busy being a kid to worry about why I was here - there were bikes to ride, balls to throw around, games to play. As I got older, there were girls to kiss, golf clubs to swing, and guitars to be played and I was still too busy living and enjoying life to worry about why I had it in the first place. I suppose I probably wondered from time to time about whether I had a purpose in life, but if I did, the thoughts were fleeting. And I did question why, if there is a God, does the world have so many different religions. So yeah, I guess I was an "atheist," but only because I didn't really have the time for any of it nor did I care much one way or the other.

I work as an IT consultant and as such, I need to travel to client sites quite a bit. Shortly after I started my consulting gig, I had to do some work for this client who had their own in-house IT guy. This guy was probably a couple of years younger than me and a total douche from the word go. He would talk incessantly and generally went out of his way to prove how much he knew about the IT world. I think he felt slighted that his company didn't trust him enough and that they hired my consulting firm to come in and assist with some special projects. Needless to say, the guy was like nails on a chalkboard and extremely difficult to get along with - not my favorite person in the world. Whenever I would need to work there, I would just go in, say as little as possible to him, get my work done, and then get the hell out of there.

So about 2 1/2-years ago (and by this time, our relationship with his company was over, thank God) (wait, can I say that here? ), I get word that this guy passed away in his sleep. *poof* Just went to went sleep one night and never woke up. And despite all of his douche-baggery, I couldn't stop thinking about what happened to him and it didn't make any sense. The guy was so incredibly annoying so why, at the end of the day, did I really give a sh*t about what happened to him? But for some reason, his death touched me on a level that I didn't even know I had.

After that, I started picking up all kinds of religious materials and for the next year I couldn't get enough. After studying a bunch of stuff and pondering things for a while, I decided to "take a leap of faith" and believe that a God did exist. I don't think anyone here on earth will ever have enough definitive evidence to prove his existence beyond any doubt and so I think to believe in him, faith must be required. And I think that's the way he wants it to be. A God that has his hand in my life somehow is the only way I could rationalize why that guy's demise touched me so deeply and caused my "spiritual awakening." Is this any sort of hard proof that God does exist? Hardly. I don't expect you or anyone else here to change his/her views based on this story and I'm not looking to change anyone's mind. I'm just relaying this to you so you can see where I'm coming from. And I suppose I'm really opening myself up to some hardcore ridicule now on this forum, but so be it. ;-)


Peace
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:34 PM   #32
OnTheRazorsEdge
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@Michael, @Simoon, and others...

My time here is up for today, but I do look forward to responding to your posts as soon as I have more time. Thanks again for posting.
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:21 AM   #33
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OnTheRazorsEdge wrote View Post
A God that has his hand in my life somehow is the only way I could rationalize why that guy's demise touched me so deeply and caused my "spiritual awakening." Peace
I'll repeat part of my previous post:

god didn't create man or anything else for that matter. Man created god:

1. To explain how the Universe came into being.

2. To control and exploit the masses.

3. To help man cope with his own mortality.


It looks like you fell into the god trap because of 3).

Big Bang, as far as I understand it, wasn't a 'happy accident' as you call it. It was as close to a mathematical certainty as you can get without it being so. For all intents and purposes, it was inevitable. The only unknown was when the universe came into being. The exact form that the Universe took, when it came into being, was down to the initial conditions, which, as far as I understand it, were purely random.

As far as 'life' in the universe is concerned, was that a happy accident or inevitable? The jury is still out on that one.

As far as 'Man' in the universe is concerned, was that a happy accident or inevitable? The jury is still out on that one too.

Of all the creatures that roam this Earth, as far as we are aware, Man is the only one that seeks understanding and reason. Man is the only creature that asks why we are here and what our purpose is. That's Man all over. Full of his own self importance. Not knowing the answers, what does Man do? Invent some sky wizard god shit and some fairy tale book to go with him and then associate ourselves with him and talk bollocks about knowing him and having him in our hearts. Again, typical of Man. Just sit back and watch what people do when a celebrity shows up. They all want to be associated with them. They all want to talk to them. They all want a picture taken with them. Why? Well, maybe there isn't a purpose and maybe we are here just because. Maybe when we die, we just die. End of. What's so special about you and me that we should exist forever? Before we were born, we didn't exist. Maybe when we die, we simply cease to exist also. Fcuck me, we won't have a conscious to know anyway - just like we didn't before we were born.

In any case, we live on a complex planet in a vast universe. Isn't that enough? If it isn't, then what the fcuck is?

The middle man of last resort.
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Old 01-15-2014, 04:48 AM   #34
ILOVEJESUS
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I won't repeat the post you replied to me as it is unnecessary. You asked "why should I be an atheist"? It has been explained. I personally couldn't give a cloth soaked with spunk why you wish to believe in dragons and fairies bud. Honestly I couldn't. Your annoying work colleague died. Sad, but it happens. How that equates to a god existing is anyone's guess....but you guessed it I suppose. Why come to an atheist forum, when you have just decided to fall at the feet of god, to crow about this is somewhat peculiar.
Basically you believe in god for no particular reason. We don't believe because there is no particular reason to do so. Hope you are clear on that one now.
Yes I held belief for a long time in "something". As I could never really work out what that "something" was, I found myself realising that it was a creation of my own to explain the world from ignorance. As I educated myself more on what was what in life, god simply shrunk out of existence.

A theist is just an atheist with a space in it.
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Old 01-15-2014, 05:12 AM   #35
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OTRE:

The guy you knew died. Like ILJ said, it's sad but these things happen. You turned to god. Why? He ain't gonna give you a longer life. He ain't gonna save ya. He doesn't exist and even if he does, he still ain't gonna save ya 'cos he don't do that. There's countless millions of folks that died early that didn't deserve to. How much more evidence do you need?

You could have gone the other way and thought: Man has got but a short time to live so why waste it on all of that god shit? Why not go out into the world and do some living whilst you can?

The middle man of last resort.
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Old 01-15-2014, 06:05 AM   #36
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OnTheRazorsEdge wrote View Post
I held atheistic beliefs ......

I just lost the will to shit.

Stop the Holy See men!
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:00 AM   #37
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OnTheRazorsEdge wrote View Post
But for some reason, his death touched me on a level that I didn't even know I had.
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After that, I started picking up all kinds of religious materials and for the next year I couldn't get enough. After studying a bunch of stuff and pondering things for a while
Sounds like you had an existential crisis or sorts.

Coupled with the fear of death, you searched and found something to make you feel comfortable. Too bad you don't care whether it is actually true.

Quote:
I decided to "take a leap of faith" and believe that a God did exist.
It's almost as if you think that believing things on faith is a good thing
But I'll bet in every other part of your life you don't use faith to base your beliefs on, because inherently you know it is not reasonable.

I'm also in IT. Can you imagine if we did our jobs based on faith? Yet, on one of the biggest questions you decide to give up using evidence, reasoned argument and valid/sound logic. Why?

I also find it disingenuous that in an earlier response to one of my posts, you claimed that the cosmological argument was the 'nail in the coffin' for the existence of a god, as if you were basing your beliefs on logic and reason, but now you are saying your beliefs are based on faith.

I had higher hopes that you would have more intellectual honesty than the vast majority of theists that I've encountered. I guess I am an optimist.

Quote:
I don't think anyone here on earth will ever have enough definitive evidence to prove his existence beyond any doubt and so I think to believe in him, faith must be required. And I think that's the way he wants it to be.
So, for those of us that don't have faith, or have faith in the 'wrong god', in your theology, what will happen to us when we die?

Quote:
A God that has his hand in my life somehow is the only way I could rationalize why that guy's demise touched me so deeply and caused my "spiritual awakening."
It sure sounds like your 'spiritual awakening' was nothing more than your need to find something to comfort your fear of death.

Last edited by Simoon; 01-15-2014 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 01-16-2014, 01:29 PM   #38
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A God that has his hand in my life somehow is the only way I could rationalize why that guy's demise touched me so deeply and caused my "spiritual awakening."
It almost sounds here like you are saying that you think god killed someone to give you a "spiritual awakening", which is incredibly egotistical.

Think about it - you're essentially saying that god valued your spirituality more than someone else's entire life.

Michael...you are correct
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Old 01-17-2014, 05:00 AM   #39
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A God that has his hand in my life somehow is the only way I could rationalize why that guy's demise touched me so deeply and caused my "spiritual awakening."
A strange use of the word rationalise, in this context. Several plausible and rational explanations present themselves, (as pointed out by Micheal and others) yet you continued to look for other explanations..... it's actually quite a skeptical approach to take i.e. to always question that which we assume to be rational or reasonable.

But, this is what intrigues me,...... why stop at the Deity Incorporated factory, (CEO God), why not go further, beyond that spiritual dead end ?

If you can be skeptical about rational explanations, why can't you be skeptical about the irrational and unreasonable.....?

Just curious is all........

Professor Plum - In the Dinning Room - with the Lead Pipe...
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Old 01-17-2014, 05:50 AM   #40
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Just FYI in case anyone hasn't realised (which hopefully is noone, since it's the same quote as the post before it) - that quote in Sol's post is from OTRE, not me.

Michael...you are correct
- selliedjoup
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:43 AM   #41
Sol
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OnTheRazorsEdge wrote View Post
A God that has his hand in my life somehow is the only way I could rationalize why that guy's demise touched me so deeply and caused my "spiritual awakening."
A strange use of the word rationalise, in this context. Several plausible and rational explanations present themselves, (as pointed out by Michael and others) yet you continued to look for other explanations..... it's actually quite a skeptical approach to take i.e. to always question that which we assume to be rational or reasonable.
But, this is what intrigues me,...... why stop at the Deity Incorporated factory, (CEO God), why not go further, beyond that spiritual dead end ?

If you can be skeptical about rational explanations, why can't you be skeptical about the irrational and unreasonable.....?

Just curious is all........

Is that better Micky dude ?
Wouldn't want anyone getting the wrong idea about you using short concise posts.......

Professor Plum - In the Dinning Room - with the Lead Pipe...
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:46 AM   #42
Smellyoldgit
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Why use one word when a thousand will do.

Stop the Holy See men!
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:50 AM   #43
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I just lost the will to shit.
atheistic beliefs! LOL!

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Old 01-17-2014, 08:17 AM   #44
Sol
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I just lost the will to shit.
Never have that problem, but I sometimes lose the will to wipe.....

Sometimes I can suffer crunchy gusset rash for a whole week....

Professor Plum - In the Dinning Room - with the Lead Pipe...
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:35 AM   #45
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Stop the Holy See men!
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