This youtube video will make you think...

[psyadam]

nkb wrote

psyadam,
What are your thoughts on Jesus Christ?

Do you believe he was (is) the son of God, did all the things that he was alleged to have done in the NT? If not, do you leave open the possibility that it's true, but you just don't know? Or, do you use common sense and deny the tall tales written by random, ignorant goatherders from the Bronze Age?

One does wonder why people haven't seem to become possessed by devils and why there hasn't been any miracles of the magnitude of biblical times. Part of the reason one like me still believes that, yes, perhaps Jesus did walk on water etc is that after reading the 4 gospels I've come to agree with almost everything Jesus taught. Don't get me wrong, I think that Jesus could have talked in more plain language and I think some of the situations described in the 4 gospels don't make any sense. (The situation where a woman wants to free her daughter from being possessed by a devil and at first Jesus seems to deny her request but then she touches the hem of his garment and her daughter is freed from the devil comes to mind).

In other words, part of the reason I still think (I give atheism vs Christianity a 50/50 chance) Christianity could still be true is simply because I want it to be true. Logically, it is not a good reason, but emotionally, there it is.

[psyadam]

Irreligious wrote

If you don't mind my saying so, yours is a rather arrogant opinion.

There is no evidence for the existence of the 3-in-1 god that Christians posit, nor do Christians present a coherent explanation for how they could credibly access this allegation if it did exist. If you are not in the thrall of their faith, it takes very little effort to dismiss their claims, just as they do with the superstitious and unverifiable claims of others.

Furthermore, I'm sure that you also are fairly practiced at dismissing unverifiable claims that you find preposterous. Do you think it's arrogant that you do?

I think atheists are arrogant for dismissing the little evidence there is that the God of Christianity exists. Atheists need to explain away where the New Testament came from (I feel the old testament could easily just be myth, that's why I don't think there is any requirement to explain the Old Testament), and how such an advanced morality and ethics could have come from one man (or if Jesus was made up, how the story could have been conceived by one man).

After that, the other evidence atheists need to explain away are the claims of people who claim to have had NDEs.

Here are the two youtube testimonials that I find convincing. Please try to keep your comments constructive as I will not pay attention to anything that seems personally insulting to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ElkkYj4o0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ElkkYj4o0

These are very long so I apologize in advance but I would like anyone who wants to make a real argument against NDEs to watch these. Also the video I posted that started this thread is also interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD-M8WAyYBE

They had a woman that attempted suicide that said to have seen hell.

Now personally, I find that the idea that there are only 2 places for people to go after death (heaven and hell) is simply flat-out wrong (I believe that there is a continuum of different worlds that people go and that basically people are put with people of like-goodness). In other words, something more like the idea that Mormons have, not that I am endorsing Mormonism (I definitely am not).

[ghoulslime]

psyadam wrote

I think atheists are arrogant for dismissing the little evidence there is that the God of Christianity exists. Atheists need to explain away where the New Testament came from (I feel the old testament could easily just be myth, that's why I don't think there is any requirement to explain the Old Testament), and how such an advanced morality and ethics could have come from one man (or if Jesus was made up, how the story could have been conceived by one man).

After that, the other evidence atheists need to explain away are the claims of people who claim to have had NDEs.

Here are the two youtube testimonials that I find convincing. Please try to keep your comments constructive as I will not pay attention to anything that seems personally insulting to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ElkkYj4o0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ElkkYj4o0

These are very long so I apologize in advance but I would like anyone who wants to make a real argument against NDEs to watch these. Also the video I posted that started this thread is also interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD-M8WAyYBE

They had a woman that attempted suicide that said to have seen hell.

Now personally, I find that the idea that there are only 2 places for people to go after death (heaven and hell) is simply flat-out wrong (I believe that there is a continuum of different worlds that people go and that basically people are put with people of like-goodness). In other words, something more like the idea that Mormons have, not that I am endorsing Mormonism (I definitely am not).

The Incredible Edible Jesus thread should be a good place for you to start learning about the invention of your fictional zombie god. (You are obviously a willfully ignorant person, so we won't pretend like you have the intellectual honesty to study the origins of Christianity with any objectivity.) Your magically delicious god is entirely the object of mythology, but feel free to demonstrate any evidence you have to the contrary.

How do near death experiences validate your delusions of blood-drinking grandeur? It would be a consoling thought to think that death was not final, but your "evidence" of NDEs is as perverse as you are. Please feel free to share any evidence you have of an immortal soul.

Please tell us more about Leprechaun land! Will we get to have bunny rabbits if we are good?

[ghoulslime]

psyadam wrote

I think atheists are arrogant for dismissing the little evidence there is that the God of Christianity exists.

What a complete dolt thinks is very important to all of us. Please share this evidence of your tasty meat-sharing god with us!

[ghoulslime]

psyadam wrote

One does wonder why people haven't seem to become possessed by devils and why there hasn't been any miracles of the magnitude of biblical times. Part of the reason one like me still believes that, yes, perhaps Jesus did walk on water etc is that after reading the 4 gospels I've come to agree with almost everything Jesus taught. Don't get me wrong, I think that Jesus could have talked in more plain language and I think some of the situations described in the 4 gospels don't make any sense. (The situation where a woman wants to free her daughter from being possessed by a devil and at first Jesus seems to deny her request but then she touches the hem of his garment and her daughter is freed from the devil comes to mind).

In other words, part of the reason I still think (I give atheism vs Christianity a 50/50 chance) Christianity could still be true is simply because I want it to be true. Logically, it is not a good reason, but emotionally, there it is.

The only thing I am wondering about is the magnitude of your wonderful stupidity. Jesus was a fictional character. His magic tricks are the stuff of fairy tales for ignorant dolts like yourself. Why do you accept, as a matter of faith, a zombie god walking on water and turning wine to piss and so forth, while rejecting offhand the miracles of other gods such as Mithra?

Logically, you are a complete dumb ass. Your math skills need a bit of work, too. If there are at least 10,000 known gods that people do or have believed in, and an infinite possibility for gods or other existential explanations that could be true, how do you derive a 50/50 chance of Sweet Jesus or nothing? What a truly pathetic imbecile you are!

[ghoulslime]

nkb wrote

To continue that thought, is it arrogant to claim that Santa Claus doesn't exist?

Well, there are elves and reindeer and all of the people who claim that he is real and so forth. How can there be jingle bells if there is no Santa?

[Irreligious]

psyadam wrote

I think atheists are arrogant for dismissing the little evidence there is that the God of Christianity exists.

The God of Christianity is described alternately as an unseen white man hovering somewhere in an inaccessible realm; an undefined, invisible "thing" called a spirit hovering everywhere; and a Bronze Age magic man from the Middle East who was tortured to death before bodily ascending to an inaccessible, unverifiable realm, where he, too, hovers, invisibly.

By definition, there can be no evidence of such allegations. However, if you think you have irrefutable evidence that any of these incarnations of a so-called deity do, indeed, exist, kindly share it. I think it would be arrogant for you not to, if you have this evidence.

psyadam wrote

Atheists need to explain away where the New Testament came from (I feel the old testament could easily just be myth, that's why I don't think there is any requirement to explain the Old Testament), and how such an advanced morality and ethics could have come from one man (or if Jesus was made up, how the story could have been conceived by one man).

Why do atheists need to explain the origin of the New Testament? Do Christians also need to explain the origin of the Qur'an to call it a book of myths?

Also, if I do not share your assessment of the New Testament as an exceptionally moral and ethical guide for human behavior (and I do not), why am I obligated to defend it as such? That would be your job, wouldn't it?

And, I have no clue as to who were the authors of the anthology that came to be known as the New Testament, but it is fairly evident that it was not written by anyone possessing supernatural powers. It is not an amazing work, in my estimation, just a little bit of history, a whole lot of mythology, some poetry and storytelling, the likes of which have been replicated (more or less) by other ordinary human beings, such as the authors of the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon and Dianetics.

Was the Bronze Age philosopher, Jesus, made up? Don't know. But what evidence do you possess that supports the contention that he was supernatural and, therefore, a god?

psyadam wrote

After that, the other evidence atheists need to explain away are the claims of people who claim to have had NDEs.

There is no evidence that people have died and gone to Hell, just testimonials from those claiming to have done so.

psyadam wrote

Herre are the two youtube testimonials that I find convincing. Please try to keep your comments constructive as I will not pay attention to anything that seems personally insulting to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ElkkYj4o0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ElkkYj4o0

These are very long so I apologize in advance but I would like anyone who wants to make a real argument against NDEs to watch these. Also the video I posted that started this thread is also interesting.

I have no wish to insult you, but I don't understand why you think the folks on this forum would find these unsupported testimonials to be the least bit interesting. The people in these YouTube videos to which you linked are not in a position to demonstrate that what they say they experienced actually happened or is in any way connected to concrete reality. Without evidence to support their claims, they're just stories.

psyadam wrote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD-M8WAyYBE

They had a woman that attempted suicide that said to have seen hell.

So? It's just a claim without evidence if she can't demonstrate that she has actually seen Hell. It's no more credible than the man who claimed to have died and gone to Antarctica and come back. It's even less credible, because we at least know Antartica exists and can chart it on a map. There is no evidence that an actual place called Hell exists.

psydam wrote

Now personally, I find that the idea that there are only 2 places for people to go after death (heaven and hell) is simply flat-out wrong (I believe that there is a continuum of different worlds that people go and that basically people are put with people of like-goodness). In other words, something more like the idea that Mormons have, not that I am endorsing Mormonism (I definitely am not).

Um. OK.

[dogpet]

psyadam wrote

Now personally, I find that the idea that there are only 2 places for people to go after death (heaven and hell) is simply flat-out wrong (I believe that there is a continuum of different worlds that people go and that basically people are put with people of like-goodness).

With each a wall around them because they're the only ones there.

[psychodiva]

psyadam wrote

I think atheists are arrogant for dismissing the little evidence there is that the God of Christianity exists. Atheists need to explain away where the New Testament came from (I feel the old testament could easily just be myth, that's why I don't think there is any requirement to explain the Old Testament), and how such an advanced morality and ethics could have come from one man (or if Jesus was made up, how the story could have been conceived by one man).

It's already been done- try studying a little


After that, the other evidence atheists need to explain away are the claims of people who claim to have had NDEs.

we 'need' to do we? lol - first you have to find the evidence of a near death experience that hasn't yet been debunked


Here are the two youtube testimonials that I find convincing. Please try to keep your comments constructive as I will not pay attention to anything that seems personally insulting to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ElkkYj4o0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ElkkYj4o0

'you' find them convincing therefore we should al go and look at them- try telling me why I should waste my time on them first- and don't even bother if they are merely anecdotal 'testimonies'


These are very long so I apologize in advance but I would like anyone who wants to make a real argument against NDEs to watch these. Also the video I posted that started this thread is also interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD-M8WAyYBE

They had a woman that attempted suicide that said to have seen hell.


I could - If I could be bothered- go into a lot of brain and behaviour stuff and chemicals and hormones etc etc - plus some cultural stuff and personality development and then some mental health stuff- to explain to you why this is a load of shit- but again- go do your own studying


Now personally, I find that the idea that there are only 2 places for people to go after death (heaven and hell) is simply flat-out wrong (I believe that there is a continuum of different worlds that people go and that basically people are put with people of like-goodness). In other words, something more like the idea that Mormons have, not that I am endorsing Mormonism (I definitely am not).

WOW! - now this one is my favourite- first you come on here all arrogant - then you post a load of clips of anecdotes and bunkum then you make a straight line for crazy - I think I might like you after all

[nkb]

psyadam wrote

One does wonder why people haven't seem to become possessed by devils and why there hasn't been any miracles of the magnitude of biblical times.

One may wonder, but I know I don't.
People don't become possessed by devils because we're not pig-ignorant goatherders anymore, and we now have medical fields (psychology, psychiatry, etc) that deal with what used to be written off as possession.

There are no more "biblical" miracles because we are not as ignorant and gullible (for the most part) as they were 2000 years ago. We have far more knowledge, and the sense to question claims of miracles, and ask for evidence in place of personal testimony.

psyadam wrote

Part of the reason one like me still believes that, yes, perhaps Jesus did walk on water etc is that after reading the 4 gospels I've come to agree with almost everything Jesus taught.

First of all, how do you connect someone plausibly walking on water with agreeing with their philosophical views?
Secondly, maybe you should re-read (or is "read" more appropriate?) the NT. If you agree with "almost everything Jesus taught", you either haven't read it, or you have some highly questionable moral views.

psyadam wrote

Don't get me wrong, I think that Jesus could have talked in more plain language and I think some of the situations described in the 4 gospels don't make any sense.

You think????

psyadam wrote

(The situation where a woman wants to free her daughter from being possessed by a devil and at first Jesus seems to deny her request but then she touches the hem of his garment and her daughter is freed from the devil comes to mind).

That's the first one that comes to mind of examples that don't make any sense? This one wouldn't make my top 1000 list.

psyadam wrote

In other words, part of the reason I still think (I give atheism vs Christianity a 50/50 chance) Christianity could still be true is simply because I want it to be true. Logically, it is not a good reason, but emotionally, there it is.

You wanting it to be true makes it a 50/50 proposition? Where do Islam, Buddhism, Satanism, and all the other countless religions fall? Are they also 50/50? If not, why not? What is more believable about Christianity than Islam?

[psyadam]

nkb wrote

You think????
That's the first one that comes to mind of examples that don't make any sense? This one wouldn't make my top 1000 list.

I would like to hear which examples of things that are in the NT that you find disagreeable or confusing.

nkb wrote

You wanting it to be true makes it a 50/50 proposition? Where do Islam, Buddhism, Satanism, and all the other countless religions fall? Are they also 50/50? If not, why not? What is more believable about Christianity than Islam?

I really am not interested in Islam or explaining why I think Christianity is superior to Islam. If you want to try and provide evidence that Islam is morally equivalent to Christ's teachings then I'll listen and respond.

[Irreligious]

So, are you a Christian now, psyadam? Or were you always a Christian since you first started posting here in 2005? I'm just curious.

[psyadam]

Irreligious wrote

So, are you a Christian now, psyadam? Or were you always a Christian since you first started posting here in 2005? I'm just curious.

When I first joined I considered myself an atheist. Sometime later on I decided I was an agnostic, but I still felt that atheism was more likely. Last December and this January I encountered the youtube videos I shared in this thread and I found the personal testimonies of these people to be convincing. Why would they make up such elaborate stories? I agree with Penn that if the person seems to be trying to make money off of their NDE it probably is fabricated or might as well be since the motive for that person is not sharing their story anymore it's making money.

Anyway, nowadays I am leaning theist, however I still consider myself agnostic and not "Christian". You might consider me Christian if all you mean is I agree with the teachings in Christ, but I hate religion as much as you folks do, and always will. I don't think Christ intended for people to form organized religions though.

[Irreligious]

psyadam wrote

When I first joined I considered myself an atheist. Sometime later on I decided I was an agnostic, but I still felt that atheism was more likely. Last December and this January I encountered the youtube videos I shared in this thread and I found the personal testimonies of these people to be convincing. Why would they make up such elaborate stories? I agree with Penn that if the person seems to be trying to make money off of their NDE it probably is fabricated or might as well be since the motive for that person is not sharing their story anymore it's making money.

I'm confused. You think the sole reason for peddling unverifiable stories is money-grubbing? Really? Do you think that is why Lily spent four years here "regaling" us with her unfounded beliefs? For money? Are you aware of a dime that she's made off of us or this site?

You honestly can't think of any other motive for the folks in those videos sharing these stories that, ultimately, cannot be objectively verified? How about they actually believe what they're saying? But so what? How is that evidence that what they believe happened actually did happen?

I'm not a neurologist, but I, too, have had nightmares before, quite vivid ones. However, when I returned to conscious lucidity, I recognized that they were merely products of my subconscious and not real at all, even though they seemed very real while I was "experiencing" them.

I'm well aware that these people purport to have been clinically dead when they had these "dream-like" experiences. As a non-neurologist, I'm in no position to say why a clinically dead brain would produce such visions. However, I would have a hard time jumping to the conclusion that it means they were somehow transported to a real physical place because their clinically dead brains produced the visions that they did.

Do you also believe in alien abductions? I'm not being facetious, because those claims are out there, too. And, as far as I know, few people are getting rich from sharing these stories, but they do anyway. And they're remarkably similar tales when you examine them. Does that verify them to you as real?

psyadam wrote

Anyway, nowadays I am leaning theist, however I still consider myself agnostic and not "Christian". You might consider me Christian if all you mean is I agree with the teachings in Christ, but I hate religion as much as you folks do, and always will. I don't think Christ intended for people to form organized religions though.

What do you find so extraordinary about the alleged teachings of Christ, the central tenet of which is that there is no other way to eternal salvation [existing forever in comfort], except through him? What's so compelling about that to you?

Are you impressed that he encouraged his adherents to treat others with the same respect that they would like accorded to them? Do you honestly think he invented that concept and the world would have been bereft of that particular platitude had it not been attributed to him?

What other unique "Christ-teachings" have swayed you to seriously consider the possibility that a flesh-and-blood man could also be a god? I'm earnestly curious.

And why do you hate religion? How can you possibly separate Christ from religion when his alleged teachings constitute the basis for a religion called, logically enough, Christianity?

[psyadam]

Irreligious wrote

And why do you hate religion? How can you possibly separate Christ from religion when his alleged teachings constitute the basis for a religion called, logically enough, Christianity?

Most of the major organized religions are decidedly anti-gay. I am a gay man, therefore I cannot in good conscience belong to any of those religions. But also I think organized religion encourages people to be sheep and to believe in whatever X religion tells them to.