How Important Was The Empty Tomb?

[SEG]

Here's a good question to ask a Christian: "How important was the empty tomb to your faith?" Once the drivel about the resurrection etc has ended, follow up with, "Then how come everyone just forgot where Jesus was buried?" Most will say that it is unimportant to revere a tomb that has no bones, but I would come back with, "so how do explain the millions of pilgrims that visit Lourdes?"

Thoughts?

[Smellyoldgit]

"According to tradition, Constantine had the monument to Jesus constructed on what was believed to be his burial site." - 300 years after the alleged burial. Sounds like the regulation dose of "made up shit" to me!

As for Lourdes, the French have tapped nicely into the abundance of gullible Catholic fuckwits and built a huge profit stream in their tourist portfolio. I've yet to see any evidence of miracle cures - doctor's reports would be a good start.

[SEG]

It's really ridiculous as atheists even talking about a fucking tomb for Jeebus anyhow, - as if a convicted and executed Roman criminal would get a respectful interning in a nice tomb! They would have had him rotting on the cross for the birds to peck at or thrown to the dogs. Let's just assume that it happened, just for shits and giggles.

No.1 The Church of the Holy Sepulcher had no verifiable archeological evidence of its excavation by Empress Helena back in 322 AD. I hate to ever cite xtian bullshit as a source, but I couldn't resist quoting this according to an Orthodox Christian source,

The emperor deeply revered the victory-bearing Sign of the Cross of the Lord, and wanted to find the actual Cross upon which our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified. He sent his mother, Helen, to Jerusalem, providing her with a letter to St. Macarius, Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Although St. Helen was already in her declining years, she set about completing the task with enthusiasm. Searching for the Life-Creating Cross, she questioned both Christians and Jews, but her search remained unsuccessful. However, in 326, she was directed to an elderly Hebrew named Jude who stated that the Cross was buried at the Temple of Venus. St. Helen ordered that the pagan temple be demolished. After praying, the ground began to be excavated. Soon, the Tomb of the Lord was uncovered. Not far from it were three crosses, a board with the inscription ordered by Pilate, and four nails which had pierced the Lord’s Body.

In order to determine the cross on which the Savior had been crucified, St. Macarius alternately touched the crosses to a corpse. When the dead man was touched by the True Cross of the Lord, the body came to life. Having beheld the raising of the dead, everyone was convinced that the Life-Creating Cross was found.

No.2 Bishop Eusebius, self confessed liar for God (remember he was the dude that first mentioned the infamous Josephus interpolation) wrote that Hadrian had the temple built over the tomb to assert the dominance of Roman state religion at the site venerated by Christians.

According to Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea, declared the Roman pagan temple of Venus was razed and excavations beneath it revealed a rock-cut tomb.

Sure it was conveniently built over

No.3 The tomb was supposed to be outside of the city walls next to the site of Jesus’ supposed crucifixion at “Skull Hill”. The church containing the tomb is inside the walls and there is no evidence to the contrary that it was originally outside the walls.

No. 4 Right underneath Jeebus, the original man Adam is thought to be buried, his skull getting all wet from Jesus's salvation blood.

No. 5 This is the church that has the "amazing" yearly miracle of the Holy Fire.

No. 6 There are another 5 recognised Jesus tombs, including one from Japan

Tomb of Jesus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The tomb of Jesus refers to any place where it is believed that Jesus was temporarily entombed for the three days before (according to the Christian and other religious traditions) he came back from the dead.

Places that have been proposed as the location of such a tomb include:

Israel
Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem.
Garden Tomb, discovered in the 19th century outside the old city of Jerusalem
Talpiot Tomb, rock-cut tomb in the East Talpiot neighborhood, five kilometers south of the Old City in East Jerusalem, Palestine
Roza Bal, the reputed tomb of Jesus in Kashmir, India
Kirisuto no haka in Shingō, Japan

Btw, the Lourdes mention was to counter apologists that argue that Christians wouldn't venerate a tomb without bones. I agree with you with the abundance of gullible Catholic fuckwits.

According to wiki; "With about 270 hotels, Lourdes has the second greatest number of hotels per square kilometre in France after Paris."

[Kinich Ahau]

Apparently Empress Helena brought back enough wood and nails from the true cross to build a new Roman fleet.

[SEG]

Kinich Ahau wrote

Apparently Empress Helena brought back enough wood and nails from the true cross to build a new Roman fleet.

Yes, and all the nails were apparently unrusted. 97, 98, 99, 100, change hands

[SEG]

Kinich Ahau wrote

Apparently Empress Helena brought back enough wood and nails from the true cross to build a new Roman fleet.

She also "discovered" Nazareth and was told by a local that the well she saw was the very well that Jesus and his happy family drew water. That well, the House of Jesus and even a bathhouse that Jesus may have bathed are there today for all to see. Pity that it's all bullshit, isn't it?

[SEG]

Hey Kinich, they even have a priest that will fly you out from Texas to get a part of this, Goddamn!

[Kinich Ahau]

No thanks.

SEG I remember reading ages ago, I can't remember where, about Helena witnessing the digging up of the cross. Some bloke told her he knew where it was. she went out there and watched as he turned over a couple of shovels of sand and revealed a couple of pieces of old wood. She rewarded him with a pouch of gold coins. At this point I can imagine in true Monty-pythonesque style hands shooting up in the crowd and saying "I know where there are some more pieces, I know where there are some more pieces" Lol.

The question obviously beckons, if the locals knew where the original cross was why leave it in the dirt for 400 years? I think we all know the answer to that one.

[SEG]

Kinich Ahau wrote

No thanks.

SEG I remember reading ages ago, I can't remember where, about Helena witnessing the digging up of the cross. Some bloke told her he knew where it was. she went out there and watched as he turned over a couple of shovels of sand and revealed a couple of pieces of old wood. She rewarded him with a pouch of gold coins. At this point I can imagine in true Monty-pythonesque style hands shooting up in the crowd and saying "I know where there are some more pieces, I know where there are some more pieces" Lol.

The question obviously beckons, if the locals knew where the original cross was why leave it in the dirt for 400 years? I think we all know the answer to that one.

Hahahar! Yeah, there was no surprise that she kept finding what she was told to find. She also would not have found much evidence at Bethlehem, which didn't exist at the time baby Jeebus was born. See http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmaswwjb.htm

Archeological evidence:

Perhaps the most important reason to suspect the accuracy of Matthew and Luke is that Bethlehem in Judea did not exist as a functioning town between 7 and 4 BCE when Jesus is believed to have been born. Archaeological studies of the town have turned up a great deal of ancient Iron Age material from 1200 to 550 BCE 7 and lots of material from the sixth century CE, but nothing from the 1st century BCE or the 1st century CE.

Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist with the Israel Antiquities Authority wrote in Archeology magazine:

" 'Menorah,' the vast database of the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA), describes Bethlehem as an 'ancient site' with Iron Age material and the fourth-century Church of the Nativity and associated Byzantine and medieval buildings. But there is a complete absence of information for antiquities from the Herodian period--that is, from the time around the birth of Jesus. 8

According to National Geographic:

"Many archaeologists and theological scholars believe Jesus was actually born in either Nazareth or Bethlehem of Galilee, a town just outside Nazareth, citing biblical references and archaeological evidence to support their conclusion. Throughout the Bible, Jesus is referred to as 'Jesus of Nazareth,' not 'Jesus of Bethlehem.' In fact, in John (7:41- 43) there is a passage questioning Jesus' legitimacy because he's from Galilee and not Judaea, as the Hebrew Scriptures say the Messiah must be. ..."

Aviram Oshri, a senior archaeologist with the Israeli Antiquities Authority, says, 'There is surprisingly no archaeological evidence that ties Bethlehem in Judea to the period in which Jesus would have been born'."

[Kinich Ahau]

I think most messiah prophecy comes from Daniel in the old testament and it was a requirement that the jewish messiah be born in Bethlehem even though it's miles from where Jesus's family is supposed to have lived. It is just one of many twisted and overwrought insertions to try and make the Jesus story fit. Others include the David lineage, the census and the killing of first born babies, all of it absolute bollocks.

One thing the prophecy doesn't mention is that the messiah would go missing for two thousand years

[SEG]

Kinich Ahau wrote

I think most messiah prophecy comes from Daniel in the old testament and it was a requirement that the jewish messiah be born in Bethlehem even though it's miles from where Jesus's family is supposed to have lived. It is just one of many twisted and overwrought insertions to try and make the Jesus story fit. Others include the David lineage, the census and the killing of first born babies, all of it absolute bollocks.

One thing the prophecy doesn't mention is that the messiah would go missing for two thousand years

Also it doesn't explain how a 9 month pregnant woman traveled a great distance (over 100 miles?) on the back of a donkey to fill out a census?

[Egor]

SEG wrote

Here's a good question to ask a Christian: "How important was the empty tomb to your faith?" Once the drivel about the resurrection etc has ended, follow up with, "Then how come everyone just forgot where Jesus was buried?" Most will say that it is unimportant to revere a tomb that has no bones, but I would come back with, "so how do explain the millions of pilgrims that visit Lourdes?"

Thoughts?

In my opinion, it means nothing at all. I didn't live then. Anything archaeologists might find could never be proved. What matters is the Jesus Christ I discover as I read the 1995 NASB bible I have on my shelf right now. That's the only place I'm going to find Jesus, and the very first time I found him was reading a Living Bible (which is horrible in terms of murdering the text of the Gospels). So, the tomb is irrelevant. If you don't find Jesus spiritually, you're never going to find him physically.

[Smellyoldgit]

Egor, you old scrote! - how are things in the world of mental instability?
I was a bit upset (well, not too much) when your rewriting of parts of the buybull didn't fill your retirement coffers quite as well as planned (the Amazon review was tremendous) - and I'll wager the psychic & tarot bollocks ain't doing too well?

Good to see you return to your favourite haunts for a bit of fun.

So how come none of the millions who claim spiritual jesus, (whatever the fuck that means) have never come up with the 'real' thing? Actually, I don't give a flying fart, but your mind numbingly tedious writings work wonders for my occasional insomnia.

[Egor]

Smellyoldgit wrote

Egor, you old scrote! - how are things in the world of mental instability?
I was a bit upset (well, not too much) when your rewriting of parts of the buybull didn't fill your retirement coffers quite as well as planned (the Amazon review was tremendous) - and I'll wager the psychic & tarot bollocks ain't doing too well?

Good to see you return to your favourite haunts for a bit of fun.

So how come none of the millions who claim spiritual jesus, (whatever the fuck that means) have never come up with the 'real' thing? Actually, I don't give a flying fart, but your mind numbingly tedious writings work wonders for my occasional insomnia.

It's nice to see you haven't changed, Smelly. GOD I've missed you!

None of it panned out. Of course, the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't meant to be a "seller." In fact, it's free at my website. But the psychic/occult thing is something I'm leaving behind. It sure did me a lot of spiritual good to go down that road--but I can't help feeling I wish I hadn't; it comes with a cost.

Anyway, I'm re-dedicating my life to Christ. And I truly have no ambitions anymore. I've traveled all the roads. I just want to live the Gospel the best I can with the years I have left, and that's it--maybe subjugate a few atheists along the way just for sport. We'll see.

As for not coming up with the "real" thing. It seems to me there is one glaring possibility--he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. But even that doesn't matter to me "historically." And you're not as spiritually deaf and dead as you pretend to be. Have you ever seen the movie, Million Dollar Baby?

[Smellyoldgit]

Egor wrote

It's nice to see you haven't changed, Smelly. GOD I've missed you!

You need to upgrade your rifle sights!

None of it panned out. Of course, the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't meant to be a "seller." In fact, it's free at my website. But the psychic/occult thing is something I'm leaving behind. It sure did me a lot of spiritual good to go down that road--but I can't help feeling I wish I hadn't; it comes with a cost.

I must admit to being quite pleased to hear this - taking advantage of gullible people has never been high on my to-do list either.

Anyway, I'm re-dedicating my life to Christ. And I truly have no ambitions anymore. I've traveled all the roads. I just want to live the Gospel the best I can with the years I have left, and that's it--maybe subjugate a few atheists along the way just for sport. We'll see.

I'm afraid this is where I feel sad that "Official Religion" is taking advantage of your personal gullibility - I hope they fail.

As for not coming up with the "real" thing. It seems to me there is one glaring possibility--he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. But even that doesn't matter to me "historically."

I'd advise looking up the huge difference between "possibility" and "probability" - then go from there.

And you're not as spiritually deaf and dead as you pretend to be. Have you ever seen the movie, Million Dollar Baby?

I don't pretend! - and no, I'm not a great film buff - I have dogs to walk and bikes to ride dammit!