Jesus the Jew (questions for Christians)

[Demigod79]

Lily wrote

What have you got but a lot of ill-thought out objections that have been answered a thousand times over the last 2000 years? It is very easy to see that you know nothing about Christianity really. It is clearer to me why that is, given your background. But that still doesn't excuse you from sitting down and reading the New Testament. Really reading it. Not proof-texting, not reading snippets here and there but reading it carefully and thoughtfully and from beginning to end (of each book). Then you need to read what thoughtful scholars who don't share your prejudices have to say. Only then will you be in a position to make pronouncements on whether or not Jesus fulfilled messianic prophecy.

I have read the entire bible from end to end several times during my Christian life (although I skipped the whole begat-begat-begat stuff). In fact, I used to sit down every night and read at least three chapters before going to bed for several years. Not only that but I once studied systematic theology at (the highly conservative) Tyndale University (the professor was a really conservative crank of the fundamentalist type). I still have the text books and I regularly look them up whenever I'm not sure about something (although it's from a heavily conservative POV). In short, I am not rejecting the bible because I don't know about it, I am rejecting it because I know about it. As they say, the fastest way to become an atheist is to read the bible.

Seriously now, do you really think urging an atheist to read the bible will make any difference? Are you really so deluded to think that words in an ancient superstitious text will have any impact against the force of rationality and reason? I treat the bible as any human-made text. I read it in the same manner as I read the Illiad and Odyssey or Romeo and Juliet. From the point of view of an impartial observer I can say that the bible is nothing special. It is only those who think it is special who treat it as such (and the same can be said about the Torah, the Quran or any other religious text). The fatal assumption that you're making is that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the bible hasn't read it properly (can you say, arrogant?).

Lily wrote

Gen. 3:15.....Seed of a woman (virgin birth).....Luke 1:35, Mt 1:18-20
Gen. 3:15.....He will bruise Satan's head.....Heb. 2:14, 1 Jn. 3:18
Gen. 5:24....The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated....Mk. 6:19
Gen. 9:26,27...The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem...Lu. 3:36
Gen. 12:3...As Abraham's seed, will bless all nations...Acts. 3:25,26
...
Mal. 3:1a...Messenger to prepare the way for Messiah... Mt. 11:10
Mal. 3:1b...Sudden appearance at the temple... Mk. 11:15-16
Mal. 3:1c...Messenger of the new covenant... Lu. 4:43
Mal. 4:5...Forerunner in the spirit of Elijah... Mt. 3:1-2
Mal. 4:6...Forerunner would turn many to righteousness... Lu. 1:16-17

You really don't know the meaning of context, do you? Plus, have you actually read some of those "prophecies"?

Here are a handful of examples:

Genesis 3:15:
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.

This passage very clearly and unambiguously refers to the enmity between the snake and man.

Then there is the reference in the new testament:

Heb. 2:14:
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

Umm, where does it say anything about hitting anyone over the head? And then there's the other verse:

1 Jn. 3:18:
Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

Prophecy... right.

Let's take another example:

Daniel 7:13-14
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Jesus was never worshipped by all peoples and all nations. He never had been and still isn't now. Prophecy unfulfilled.

Next:

Jeremiah 23:5-6
The days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.

In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.

The Jews were not saved during Jesus' time, and neither did Israel live in safety, and still isn't today. Failed prophecy.

Finally, one more (for now):

Isa. 11:10:
In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.

And yet, after this it says:
In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.

The Jews were scatted throughout the world shortly after Jesus came, not brought together. Again, prophecy unfulfilled.

Contragulations Lily, you've just demonstrated that you are a douch-bag! (but then again we already knew that). This is one of the most shoddy pieces of "research" I've ever come across. Honestly Lily, you make it just so easy. I'll take apart some more tomorrow, gotta sleep now (now this is REALLY getting fun).

[Demigod79]

Lily wrote

Start your own thread, if you want to start a different discussion. I have never once alluded to prophecy in the 3+ years I have been here. This is Demi's thread, why don't you stay on topic or start your own? Your dependence on disproving the straw fundies that haunt your imagination has long since ceased to amuse. Get a new schtick.

Now why you gotta be like that? Let people join in if they want, it'll make it more fun.

Demigod79 wrote

I still have the text books and I regularly look them up whenever I'm not sure about something (although it's from a heavily conservative POV). In short, I am not rejecting the bible because I don't know about it, I am rejecting it because I know about it. As they say, the fastest way to become an atheist is to read the bible.

Do they say that? So far, only fundies find learning about the Bible erodes their faith. That is because they have been brought up to believe it is a magic book. I became a theist because I read it, just like untold millions of others. Of course, as someone educated in ancient literature, I never approached it as a magic book. I think this one is a wash.

Seriously now, do you really think urging an atheist to read the bible will make any difference? Are you really so deluded to think that words in an ancient superstitious text will have any impact against the force of rationality and reason? I treat the bible as any human-made text. I read it in the same manner as I read the Illiad and Odyssey or Romeo and Juliet.

You don't listen do you? You are seriously deluded because you do not listen to anyone. Even when you pretend to have a question, you don't. You are looking for an opportunity to pounce with some idiot insight gleaned from TV or Dawkins, just as though I hadn't heard it all a million times.

I have been urging you all along to read the Bible as the ancient literature it is, i.e. carefully and thoughtfully. You have not. You read it as a magic book that you are hell-bent on disproving. Since no reasonably educated person reads it that way, you are tilting at windmills. Have at Don. It will keep you out of trouble.

The fatal assumption that you're making is that anyone who disagrees with your interpretation of the bible hasn't read it properly (can you say, arrogant?).

Can you say asinine assumption that no one who has read what I have said about how to read the Bible intelligently over the last 3 years could possibly make? I do not have *an* interpretation of the Bible, dear. It is 66 books written over nearly 2000 years in a variety of genres and in ancient languages. Since I do not have a comprehensive expertise in ancient semitic languages, Greek, history, literature and culture, nor in Judaism, ancient or modern, I cannot have have *an* interpretation of the Bible. I understand the New Testament the way umpteen millions of other Christians have over the last 2000 years. Despite weirdo cults and off-the-wall sects and groups, the vast majority of Christians past and present, agree on all the essentials.

Contragulations Lily, you've just demonstrated that you are a douch-bag! (but then again we already knew that). This is one of the most shoddy pieces of "research" I've ever come across. Honestly Lily, you make it just so easy. I'll take apart some more tomorrow, gotta sleep now (now this is REALLY getting fun).

So now the truth comes out. Your questions were never honest and, because I am not persuaded by your TV "scholarship" but, rather, find it ridiculous, I am a douch-bag (sic).

Like I said, you aren't reading anything I write. It is all a pretext for you to write what ever nonsense you want to write. Well, I am used to dishonest atheists. Whatever else may be true, you certainly aren't a careful reader. Remember this?

Lily wrote

Here, for instance, is a list of prophecies that Jesus did fulfill. Now, while the compiler is on my team, am I convinced that all of these are messianic prophecies? Mais non! (emphasis added)

Was it the French that tripped you up? But do be my guest and waste time going through all 324 and disputing them. It will keep you from making an ass out of yourself here.

Mog wrote

Why the heck are you talking about prophecies, then you liar? Do you just fail to hear your own voice or something? And if its off-topic, why did you bring up prophecy in the first place?

Who started this thread? What is it's subject? Once you answer those questions correctly, I have some hope (not alot) that you will understand why these statements of yours are as fatuous as all your remarks to me are.

[Choobus]

Demigod79 wrote

As they say, the fastest way to become an atheist is to read the bible.

I don't know about that. It certainly sounds like the most boring way though.

[Demigod79]

Lily wrote

I have been urging you all along to read the Bible as the ancient literature it is, i.e. carefully and thoughtfully. You have not. You read it as a magic book that you are hell-bent on disproving. Since no reasonably educated person reads it that way, you are tilting at windmills. Have at Don. It will keep you out of trouble.

Actually, I read it as a magic book when I was a Christian. Now I read it as ancient literature. The view I hold of the bible today is similar to the one I held when I was a liberal Christian (I made a gradual transition from conservative -> progressive -> liberal -> atheist), which is that the bible should not be interpreted literally, but as a collection of books that express the human desire to know God. The same can be said about other religious books, and that's the way I see them as well. As I said before I see the bible just like any other piece of ancient literature, as a work of humans. This includes the story of Jesus and his rising from the dead. I see this in the same light as stories of Osiris and Dionysus being raised from the dead, as just stories.

Of course I do not believe in the Jewish messiah either (as an atheist I do not believe in any messiah at all), but the Christian one is supposed to be based on it. After all this I have formed the conclusion that it's his resurrection that convinces you of his being the Christ. I think that's why most Christians believe as well... I just don't find it a valid reason. As I said before, you just have to know that the Jews really do have a good reason for not believing based on their expectations of the messiah.

Lily wrote

But do be my guest and waste time going through all 324 and disputing them. It will keep you from making an ass out of yourself here.

I agree with Mog here. Why bother bringing up prophecies if you don't want to discuss them? What's the purpose of wasting bandwidth and posting such stuff if it doesn't add to the conversation? By posting such nonsense you're making yourself look like the fundies that you're so critical of.

[Choobus]

Lily wrote

...only fundies find learning about the Bible erodes their faith

only the sith deal in absolutes

Demigod79 wrote

I agree with Mog here. Why bother bringing up prophecies if you don't want to discuss them? What's the purpose of wasting bandwidth and posting such stuff if it doesn't add to the conversation? By posting such nonsense you're making yourself look like the fundies that you're so critical of.

You brought messianic prophecies up. They have been the subject of this thread from the beginning. I posted the list to mock you (and so far, so good. All you can do is sputter about shoddy scholarship. Sort of like getting information from a TV show?)

Just for your information, many of them (I won't tell you which-- you know it all, already) are and have always been considered by both Christians and Jews to be messianic prophecies.

Now, rebut them, like you said you could.

[Demigod79]

Lily wrote

You brought messianic prophecies up. They have been the subject of this thread from the beginning. I posted the list to mock you (and so far, so good. All you can do is sputter about shoddy scholarship. Sort of like getting information from a TV show?)

Just for your information, many of them (I won't tell you which-- you know it all, already) are and have always been considered by both Christians and Jews to be messianic prophecies.

Now, rebut them, like you said you could.

No worries mate, I'll get to them in good time. Unfortunately I'll have to leave it for the weekend, gotta make that dough and all.

[Sternwallow]

Bovina wrote

Yes.

Now, why don't you take your blinders off, read the New Testament carefully and try again? And this time answer my question. Why did his followers think he was the Messiah-- something he claimed over and over again?

How about, because they were His followers and He claimed it over and over again?

How about because people who never knew Him were told that it was written in many places (in NT scripture and nowhere else) that He was the Messiah?

P. T. Barnum was born 2000 years too late.

Bad cow, bad.

[Sternwallow]

Kate wrote

Yeah, how would faux news have covered a rabble rousing non-conforming borderline terrorist hippy?

Hardly borderline! Jesus allegedly went berserk in the holy temple and caused mayhem and much damage to people quietly conducting legitimate business on behalf of the pilgrims. Far from being a placid pacifist, Jesus was a mental time-bomb that went off on at least two occasions. The first, His destruction inside the temple and second his destruction of an innocent plant for its failure to produce fruit out of season.

[Demigod79]

So far I've made my way through half of them (ugh, the boredom and the monotony - I don't know how many brain cells I've killed so far). Thus far I could find only a few that could justly apply to Jesus (mostly in Isaiah). A lot of them are simply symbolic references (such as animal sacrifice, blood, being applied to Jesus symbolically), many other refer to qualifies of God (only applies of one assumes Jesus is God). Others like Isaiah 53, the suffering servant seemingly refer to a suffering Jesus, but the context suggests that the servant is Israel (Isaiah 52 and 54 are both about Israel and 53 is considered a part of them). Many others refer to the seed of Abraham/Jacob/Joseph blessing all nations, yet this is also clearly a reference to the Jews and their descendants. Finally, it mentions the phrase "Son of God" as a seeming reference to Jesus but this is clearly a reference to Solomon and the Israelite kings (e.g., "You are my son, today I have begotten you" is referred directly to Solomon).

I don't know if I want to spent/waste my time with the rest (I'm currently engaged in some other activities), although I must thank Lily for providing the list. I've seen very similar lists on many a fundy site and it would be good to have a ready-made answer (isn't it heart-warming that fundies and Catholics can work together for Jesus).

At any rate, I think I have my answer from Lily (I got it several posts ago, when she focused strongly on Jesus' divinity). She's convinced that Jesus is the messiah because she believes the gospels and the claims in the new testament that Jesus was God. This is something that I thought as well when I was a Christian, a simple assumption that made sense of a whole lot of new testament stuff. The only real thing I was arguing was that the Jews, under their interpretation of scripture, can reasonably deny that Jesus was their messiah (in my opinion the two messiahs are fundamentally different).

As an aside, during my research I found a lot of stuff by Muslim scholars (who generally have a Jewish interpretation of the old testament and the messiah). I don't know anything about Islam so I can't really comment, but they do seem to have a wealth of knowledge about the old testament. They seem to be a good source of objective info regarding the bible since they're a third-party and don't have anything to gain either way.

[Philboid Studge]

Right, the Jizzlams have no axe of their own to grind and we can be confident that they are totally impartial with regards interpreting religious texts.